Quotes from William Sanders

24-02-2006 03:01PM #1

Liam et al...

Just wondering on people's opinions on these extracts from some William Sanders articles. Since his grappling article stimulated so much debate I thought why not.

http://www.cimande.com/writings/sanders/amagick.htm

I witnessed a Pencak Silat demonstration in which a live bat exited the practitioners mouth flying directly at his opponent. Gradually my physical abilities were merged with the magickal training.

A large Slamatan (feast) was held and small magickally charged golden needles were implanted into my arms. My name was recorded and I was given special herbs that would cool me down after the intense effects set in. I saw people possessed by animal spirits and magick that at once separated this combat art from the sterile, robotic, posturing seen in some schools.

I have therefore seen it necessary to openly come forth with the Fighting Magick video tapes in order to help your inner self merge with your physical self to achieve true mastery. This tape series can promote you into the realms of inner Pencak Silat practiced in seclusion and formerly guarded by the royal courts. Very few people, in their entire life are even exposed to this knowledge. It is said that when you are ready your teacher will appear. The fact that you are reading this proves you are ready. Now it's up to you.

http://www.cimande.com/writings/sanders/awhy.htm

The first level is joint destruction. This is the most physical and easiest to develop. There is energy damage to the opponent, as the bones store the Tenaga Dalam (inner power), however it requires no inner power by the practitioner to deliver the strike. Although, obviously all strikes can be intensified with it.

The second stage is muscle and nerve damage. This requires more physical skill as the accuracy of the strikes must improve. Again inner power would intensify the result but is not necessary to cause damage.

The third area involves nerve damage. This requires pin point precision accuracy and is very effective. Inner energy could greatly increase the damage here, as even a close hit could score with enough energy being released.

The fourth step is energy damage. Here we have crossed the line, no physical power will do. This must be transferred directly to the practitioner through the acupuncture points or with sufficient training this can be accomplished at a distance from the opponent.

A superior high powered race car being driven by a monkey will not beat a pick up truck driven by a champion . Embrace the Kebatinan and Ilmu of Pencak Silat and you will win in the end!

http://www.cimande.com/writings/combat/march04.htm

These exercises are moving mediations that I refer to as 'Washing the body with the blade'.

You are taught how to place the thick back of the blade against your body and begin by slowly and rhythmically moving your body while keeping the back edge welded to your body. Move it over and back until the blade is gliding over every surface, losing the thought that it is separate from your own body.

At first you feel the cold steel against your body. but it soon disappears from your conscious thought. During such times you may notice emanations rising from your blade. like heat waves, or perhaps a soft glow. So the body turns and twists and spins, as though the body itself has become the blade! That is why I call this. 'The blade within the body'.

The blade seemingly appears here and there - all over the body - until the blade within the body merges with its physical counterpart to give rise to a ‘jimat sakti' (supernatural shield). Now the blade flows over and on the surface of the skin like a drop of water that follows every contour. As the thought goes, so the blade moves.

http://www.cimande.com/writings/keris/keris2.htm

In Indonesia, it was and is customary to feed such a keris, at least once a week, usually on a Saturday. The feeding can consist of applying a special oil to the blade, which is made from water growing plants and then passing the blade over a special incense, allowing the smoke to encompass the blade. This incense resembles Gum Myrrh and is a resinous tree sap material called Mignon. First to start the operation the keris is asked if it may be opened (usually done if the blade is being used for a noncombat application) by saying a suitable word, such as maaf, which means, may I? If the blade glides open easily it is appropriate to continue the operation. If not then the reason must be found and it is not auspicious to try and force the issue at that time.

Took them all from www.cimande.com (Link provided by Liam. Thanks mate.

)

Interested in everyone's comments,

Colum

dlofnep · 24-02-2006 03:32PM

lol.. this sorta crap is getting out of hand

cavedave · 24-02-2006 03:57PM

This seems dangerously close to an ad hominem argument. The founder of aikido had some unusual views. This does not make aikido a bad martial art.

As far as these claims relate directly to physical actions I am curious to whether they are true, for instance "with sufficient training this can be accomplished at a distance from the opponent.". If he really can injure an opponent at a distance the he can make himself 1 million dollars. http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

As for the more philosophical claims they are a non falsifyable hypothesis. To but it bluntly they are not even wrong. More kindly "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Ludwig Wittgenstein

Tim_Murphy · 24-02-2006 04:05PM

sweet use of the letter k in the word magic!:)

fianna.5u.com · 24-02-2006 04:07PM

I'm not sure Wittgenstien meant that in this context. I think he meant it in a more "our cognition is defined through our language, what we cannot speak (or have words for etc) we cannot have cognition of and therefore it is beyond the realm of human thought (again which is bound by the language). I think we can probably find out the general thrust of his arguement, the premise rather that the statement if you like, and that is completely fallacious.

Anyway, I think this is gas! I love it. Obviously I dont beleive in it for a second. Nonetheless if I was going to train something that wasnt MMA maybe it would be this. I did a little Drunken Style before, it would be that or this. Haha

Peace

edit: the use of the letter K usually is there to let everyone know that this is "real" magick, not the show or smoke and mirrors stuff which is spelt magic.

silat liam · 24-02-2006 06:41PM

fianna.5u.com wrote:

I'm not sure Wittgenstien meant that in this context. I think he meant it in a more "our cognition is defined through our language, what we cannot speak (or have words for etc) we cannot have cognition of and therefore it is beyond the realm of human thought (again which is bound by the language). I think we can probably find out the general thrust of his arguement, the premise rather that the statement if you like, and that is completely fallacious.

Anyway, I think this is gas! I love it. Obviously I dont beleive in it for a second. Nonetheless if I was going to train something that wasnt MMA maybe it would be this. I did a little Drunken Style before, it would be that or this. Haha

Didnt realise that you guys were so easily rattle. The internal aspects of Silat are very important this is only one form of belief system in the world, wheither you believe in it or not I dont really care. The bottom line is that because you were made a fool off in the thread about your system not working against a blade you decide to poke fun at a martial artist who has learnt the internal aspect of Silat. maybe you spend maybe alittle bit more of your time focusing on your own system and making it better. I tell you what, why you come along end of May and I give you a free pass and you can your make your point directly to Mr Sanders and if you like to play around with some of the senior guys or do you say roll we can have some fun and we can test thoes false belief you have.

Fianna can you explain to me why do fighters who now wrestle with you and your club have to wax their chest if they want to compete, whats the story here, also I heard they suppose to wear lyrca, what that all about. And that before you play around with each other you have to be the same weight??So we maybe we crazie loonies in the silat, but you guys have a few loonie tenecies as well, if these rules you guys have was place out of contents of your art you would say you fronting a ymca club or maybe it should be
Fianna (village) people club where men rub each other with oil , hug each other and roll about on the ground gee sounds really good. Get what I saying place things out of content and who know what rumours are going on. Just a thought on the bear wrestling did Gene le bell not wrestle bears??? ...

There a wise only saying use in adverts (can be seen ontv)" the only thing that mens sweat attracts is other men" ask fianna he a real man

Peace

edit: the use of the letter K usually is there to let everyone know that this is "real" magick, not the show or smoke and mirrors stuff which is spelt magic.

thats the correct answer except real magick is often know as ancient knowledge and transcen every ancient race and culture on this planet.. gee they all must have been wrong.... another wise saying .. "thoes who forgot to learn from the past or doomed to repeat it"

More details on www.silateurope.com

ps please bring a towel as we dont like sharing sweat ( if you dont we send you to Fianna club he love sweat )

StrateBlastJim · 24-02-2006 11:49PM

silat liam wrote:

Fianna can you explain to me why do fighters who now wrestle with you and your club have to wax their chest if they want to compete, whats the story here,

I started training BJJ about 3 years ago and since then i have competed in to maa league competitions and have not shaved my chest. i consider 4 people who have competed in various professional competitions to be very close friends and they dont shave there chests so i believe your statements to be false.

silat liam wrote:

also I heard they suppose to wear lyrca, what that all about.

i have also trained in about 7 top bjj clubs in this country and approx 90% of people i have trained with do not train in lyrca so again your statement is false.

silat liam wrote:

And that before you play around with each other you have to be the same weight??

im 5 foot 5 and pretty slight and i certainly wish this was true as i am rarely afforded the luxury of training with someone my size.

silat liam wrote:

Fianna (village) people club where men rub each other with oil ,

afaik oil is banned in mma contests

silat liam wrote:

hug each other

is there something wrong with hugging another man? do you fear male intimacy liam? did you never hug your dad?

MaxBax · 24-02-2006 11:52PM

hey sbjim you still going to smr?

StrateBlastJim · 24-02-2006 11:56PM

silat liam wrote:

There a wise only saying use in adverts (can be seen ontv)" the only thing that mens sweat attracts is other men" ask fianna he a real man

this is really the line that made me bother to reply as i do not like its tone one bit.

Colum started this topic to get peoples views on your coleagues quotes. i highlight Quotes as thats exactly what they are. All you have done is avoid giving your views on them by attacking a sport you obviously know little about. now im not big on knowing exactly what type of falacious argument you just made but im sure colum, colm or fianna will be along soon to tell me:)

All in all i think you have let yourself down badly here by avoiding commenting by trying to insult someone i would consider a friend.

sorry the post is in 2 parts but it wouldnt let me post it in one. and yes max smr is still going but probably not this week as the mma league is on.

dlofnep · 25-02-2006 12:22AM

Judging by silat's description, all grapplers look like this.

25-02-2006 04:55AM

Liam,

Your response is very telling.

As Jim has already commented, when challenged to comment on quotes by your chief instructor you respond with petty homophobic insults. I have to say that I am aghast at such behaviour. Such insinuations have no place in the school yard never mind on these boards. I have complained to the administrators accordingly.

To explain my issues, I find some of Mr. Sanders claims go against Newtonian physics and I feel that if Mr. Sanders truly feels that Silat allows Energy Projection then perhaps he could make an easy $1,000,000 at www.randi.org? Again this would be an excellent test of his conviction and I'm sure the money could do wonders in spreading the art of silat- obviously something Mr. Sanders feels strongly about.

Again thank you for showing your true colours,

Colum

Colm_OReilly · 25-02-2006 04:04PM

I think if you go back about a year ago on irmac you'll find this debate happend before. Liam's quote is actually a quoted response of his to Fianna's ages ago, and so may need some deciphering for those unfamiliar with the original debate.

Roper · 25-02-2006 04:31PM

silat liam wrote:

thats the correct answer except real magick is often know as ancient knowledge and transcen every ancient race and culture on this planet.. gee they all must have been wrong.... another wise saying .. "thoes who forgot to learn from the past or doomed to repeat it"

Eh, yes they were all wrong, because they didn't know about things like gravity, chemistry and small things like the earth being round and all that. Talking to you Liam is like being in a time machine. I feel like I'm pre-Copernicus right now.

I can accept ancient knowledge as somebody knowing what herb to put on a boil. But what this Colonel Sanders bloke is on about is an insult to the term.

silat liam · 25-02-2006 10:10PM

Roper wrote:

Eh, yes they were all wrong, because they didn't know about things like gravity, chemistry and small things like the earth being round and all that. Talking to you Liam is like being in a time machine. I feel like I'm pre-Copernicus right now.

I can accept ancient knowledge as somebody knowing what herb to put on a boil. But what this Colonel Sanders bloke is on about is an insult to the term.

Hi Roper
There are many theories on the evelotion of man kind. The lastest theory now coming from the scientist World is that the darwin theory is maybe wrong and at some point in mankind evolution either a supreme force or energy had some part to play. They also now agree that at some points in man civilization evolution there was jump starts in it progress, they have still have to work out how fully yet, how ancient mankind were able to build the great pyramids of Egypt to with in 2 inches of perfections in mathematical trems even in Ireland we have Newgrange, so are you saying Roper that using these as examples that these people had no understanding of science??? Are you saying when Mr Sanders is refering to ancient Indonesian Culture its all wrong, can you prove this ??? We also know that the Roman Civilization fell it brought us into the Dark Ages and Europe did not really progress for a 100 years. Scientist now also believe that the Egyptian army use giant mirror to confuse they enemies by creating reflections of their army to make their army look bigger, so saying that these ancient races had no knowledge of science is total bull ****. So to state that all ancient culture and knowledge is wrong is really nonsence which you guys keep spouting. Anything and I mean Anything which doesnt fit into your tiny tiny scope of what the real world is about you insult it and when you lose argumnents you then go of in tangets ie "Our system doesnt bother with self defence or knife defence as they wont need it" I could go and on more about ancient culture but there would be no point on this forum as its about Martial Arts, but if you wish I can continued.

Hope this helps you Mr Roper

StrateBlastJim · 25-02-2006 10:27PM

silat liam wrote:

Hi Roper
There are many theories on the evelotion of man kind. The lastest theory now coming from the scientist World is that the darwin theory is maybe wrong and at some point in mankind evolution either a supreme force or energy had some part to play.

Could you please show me a link to this information as being a zoologist myself and having just graduated from ucd where one of my modules involved the evolution of mankind i would be intrested in reading any published articles on the matter.

silat liam wrote:

Anything and I mean Anything which doesnt fit into your tiny tiny scope of what the real world is about you insult it and when you lose argumnents you then go of in tangets

Tangents i dont really agree but ok, however we dont go insulting other people, well i dont for 1.

silat liam wrote:

ie "Our system doesnt bother with self defence or knife defence as they wont need it"

Pretty sure no one has said this and wouldnt, people keep telling you they train for fun and thats why they dont train for a possible knife attack.

silat liam wrote:

I could go and on more about ancient culture but there would be no point on this forum as its about Martial Arts, but if you wish I can continued.

Im pretty sure Fianna would be more than happy to talk to you about acient cultures and the validity of science if you get up the courage to apoligise that is.

silat liam · 25-02-2006 10:31PM

columok wrote:

Liam,

Your response is very telling.

As Jim has already commented, when challenged to comment on quotes by your chief instructor you respond with petty homophobic insults. I have to say that I am aghast at such behaviour. Such insinuations have no place in the school yard never mind on these boards. I have complained to the administrators accordingly.

To explain my issues, I find some of Mr. Sanders claims go against Newtonian physics and I feel that if Mr. Sanders truly feels that Silat allows Energy Projection then perhaps he could make an easy $1,000,000 at www.randi.org? Again this would be an excellent test of his conviction and I'm sure the money could do wonders in spreading the art of silat- obviously something Mr. Sanders feels strongly about.

Again thank you for showing your true colours,

Colum

Hi Colum

No problems Colum. You know my true colours I stand up to bullies. Lets be honest here why you put these comments up on the thread, this was in response to the article "Is Grappling Safe on the street" when the MMA guys had no comeback on this and came out with really stupid remarks. You tried to be smart and start posting quotes from Mr Sanders Website trying to make fun of him. I'm more than willing to have a very long discussion with you. But how in the world am I going to be able to have a meaningful discussion with you on the Internal and Spiritiual Aspects of Indonesian Culture and how it links to Indonesian Silat when guys like you who go around promoting young kids to go into a ring to fight and give them false ideal of granduer, offering them false ideals of becoming famous if they can win a fight, and than claim your arts are realistic and are the best. Than when a simple Statement is made that your system maybe doesnt work in the street or at the best has massive holes in its defence where a student of your system would be in danger if he believe his training would protect him especially against mutiple attacker or a blade attack.

What was the answer we got back from MMA guys let me see "We dont believe it worth the time to learn to defend against a blade, just loose weight"
every time we give you guys a answer you just blinker it. But my dear Colum you thought you were being smart coming back with your quotes. What were you hoping to achieved. All you did was to promote my art better. Since I started writing on this forum especially the last few days I received phone calls, and emails thanking to standing up as was describe to me today MMA/SBG bullies who jump on everyone else threads and hijack them. So as seen this happening before on another forum by you guys I decided what good for the goose is good for the gander. We the TMA guys all should poke holes in all your debates and really get this forum going. We all tired of the same old message you guys spout.

dlofnep · 25-02-2006 10:37PM

Hi Liam. I'm sorry to be somewhat condescending, but while you are up in the clouds dreaming about technique, we're in the gym breaking sweat and making things happen. Come back to reality, it's much more fun and far more rewarding.

silat liam · 25-02-2006 10:39PM

dlofnep wrote:

Hi Liam. I'm sorry to be somewhat condescending, but while you are up in the clouds dreaming about technique, we're in the gym breaking sweat and making things happen. Come back to reality, it's much more fun and far more rewarding.

Aaah John
Are we back to the swat thing again?? Must be catching. Are you a friend of Colum

StrateBlastJim · 25-02-2006 10:44PM

liam i dont know you but why do you constantly avoid my questions?

silat liam · 25-02-2006 10:52PM

StrateBlastJim wrote:

liam i dont know you but why do you constantly avoid my questions?

SBJ Jim
What questions are you on about??

StrateBlastJim · 25-02-2006 10:59PM

StrateBlastJim wrote:

Could you please show me a link to this information as being a zoologist myself and having just graduated from ucd where one of my modules involved the evolution of mankind i would be intrested in reading any published articles on the matter.

This for one. wooo i quoted myself

silat liam · 25-02-2006 11:19PM

StrateBlastJim wrote:

This for one. wooo i quoted myself

No Problem Jim
I dont have a web link to it, but there was a discussion on Channel 4 New programme about 6 weeks ago as they were now bringing it into school education programmes in different states and there were alot of poltical problems with different school boards in USA. There also was a discussion around the same time on Newstalk fm around 3pm about 4 weeks ago on it as there was a convention (Earl Court I believe) in London I think about 4 weeks ago among different scientist about this theory as it was causing vast argumnents in the scientist world. They were also going on about in linking to the "Big Bang"Theory but couldnt fully make out what was the link. They seem to have by there comments about 45% of the scientist support for this new theory.

Hope this helps......

fianna.5u.com · 26-02-2006 12:56AM

Dude, I'm not going to entertain this. But please do me a favour. Ask yourself why you respnded to my post the way you did. I mean you seem so contradictory, you are giving other people greif about them not being open minded enough and you basically plame me for saying I dont beleive in it. I real, genuine answer would be appreciated.
Next you know Zero about how I train because you havent trained with me. I didnt critize your training, I said I dont beleive anything in the above post.
I study anthropology, what makes you think you know more about different beleif systems than me? Thats a genuine question, its not loaded, its not saying "Hey you I actually know more than you" Im just asking.

Ask yourself this next question. Why do you always critise things like clothes, body hair, proximity to other men and never things like effectiveness etc.

3 is a charm, why is it that you argue about issues like beleif systems and evolution with people who are vastly more qualified than you and you have nothing to back it up, I mean how can you beleive yourself?

Thats for your benifit, not mine because Im not going to look at this thread. I'll be too busy training MMA on my way to making a great life for myself as a professional fighter. And the rest of the world will be there too, looking at MMA and laughing off the other rediculous "styles" (that comment isnt aimed that you so keep your knickers on, if you cant keep your knickers on then fine, the comment was aimed at you)

Peace

MaxBax · 26-02-2006 01:49AM

silat liam wrote:

No Problem Jim
I dont have a web link to it, but there was a discussion on Channel 4 New programme about 6 weeks ago as they were now bringing it into school education programmes in different states and there were alot of poltical problems with different school boards in USA. There also was a discussion around the same time on Newstalk fm around 3pm about 4 weeks ago on it as there was a convention (Earl Court I believe) in London I think about 4 weeks ago among different scientist about this theory as it was causing vast argumnents in the scientist world. They were also going on about in linking to the "Big Bang"Theory but couldnt fully make out what was the link. They seem to have by there comments about 45% of the scientist support for this new theory.

Hope this helps......

i'm a zoologist too! high five SBJ. seriously silat liam, are you a troll?

StrateBlastJim · 26-02-2006 02:46AM

MaxBax wrote:

i'm a zoologist too! high five SBJ. seriously silat liam, are you a troll?

so is twokingmick. maybe us scientists are attracted to bjj for some reason.

But i think liam you are getting angry because we keep questioning, but i think you'll find its because we do it in every form of life. if someone make a claim i want evidence thats just who i am.

Roper · 26-02-2006 10:16AM

silat liam wrote:

Hi Roper
There are many theories on the evelotion of man kind. The lastest theory now coming from the scientist World is that the darwin theory is maybe wrong and at some point in mankind evolution either a supreme force or energy had some part to play.

You've once again betrayed yourself Liam. This theory comes not from science but from christian fundamentalists. It's called intelligent design and it's not a scientific theory it's more of a clever way of getting religion as part of a secular curriculum. It's an example that works against your argument Liam.

The building of the pyramids is called mathematics. This wasn't "ancient knowledge" this was years of practise and failure. There are remains of smaller, less developed pyramids in the Gobi and Sahara deserts. You're in luck here Liam, my wifes thesis for her degree in mathematics was ancient Egyptian math, so she can speak at length on the subject without resorting to talking about inner knowledge or ancient wisdom.

The dark ages? Interesting you should bring this up. This was an era of history in which religion supressed the onset of scientific, secular studies. In a way it's a bit like those who still try to hold firm that martial arts has some mystical, spiritual energy forces behind it. It flys in the face of reason, they can see themselves becoming less relevant as the scientific methods overtake them and become more popular so they shut up shop.

Liam, one last point. You can't pick and choose knowledge that you like and then fill in the blanks with pseudo-science. I'm afraid science is like that. It's an uncomfortable mistress to have because it shakes your own personal convictions.

silat liam · 26-02-2006 12:05PM

Roper wrote:

You've once again betrayed yourself Liam. This theory comes not from science but from christian fundamentalists. It's called intelligent design and it's not a scientific theory it's more of a clever way of getting religion as part of a secular curriculum. It's an example that works against your argument Liam.

The building of the pyramids is called mathematics. This wasn't "ancient knowledge" this was years of practise and failure. There are remains of smaller, less developed pyramids in the Gobi and Sahara deserts. You're in luck here Liam, my wifes thesis for her degree in mathematics was ancient Egyptian math, so she can speak at length on the subject without resorting to talking about inner knowledge or ancient wisdom.

The dark ages? Interesting you should bring this up. This was an era of history in which religion supressed the onset of scientific, secular studies. In "a way it's a bit like those who still try to hold firm that martial arts has some mystical, spiritual energy forces behind it. It flys in the face of reason, they can see themselves becoming less relevant as the scientific methods overtake them and become more popular so they shut up shop.

Liam, one last point. You can't pick and choose knowledge that you like and then fill in the blanks with pseudo-science. I'm afraid science is like that. It's an uncomfortable mistress to have because it shakes your own personal convictions.

Hi Roper
Thanks for your reply. Yes thats the theory I was talking about "intelligent theory". So now the scientist who dont follow your way of thinking are call "Christian fundamentalists". In all honesty you guys have a very selective view of life and I glad to see its not only martial arts people you guys label into section but the whole world. These people are scientist off a far higher degree than you and me here today. They spend there lives debating the theories of life so just to say they have an agenda to bring religion into schools is a very bias remark, buts it your view and thats cool, but I completely disagree with you. By the way what way did this work against my argument ? You havnt prove anything.

Second part Mathematics not ancient knowledge????? What are you on about, just because you name something with a scientific term doesnt mean it didnt come from ancient knowledge. The ancient civilizations use Mathematics as part of their culture. Mathematics weren't suddenly invented in the last few centuries. This was one form of ancient knowledge.

The Dark ages, you seem to have a bit of a bone with religion as you blame them completly for the dark ages. Yes you are correct in part of this, but also with the fall of the Roman Empire it brought an end to many of the advances in civilization that the Roman had develop. Sure the Church at the time didnt help. But Europe decline rapidly after the fall of the Roman Empire.

So are scientist alwayes right?? Good ideal they not, because for a long time these so call scientist did tell us the world was flat and that the Sun travel around the earth...it was heresy to say different as the scientist of the day, were correct. The only thing thats for sure as more and more secrets/ ancient knowledge / laws of nature is reveal and turn into scientific fact. Scientist will alwayes change there view points to what is revelant today. Mr Roper you may look at the world with scientist view point thats cool but I look at the world and see the beauty and wonder of it. Its no wonder as human being become more technologist we as a race become more stress as we turn our backs on anything to do withour inner self. Just look at the suicide rates as a example, especially in the Male 20 to 35 group. So if we took your view Mr Roper that we should believe scientist at all time, the World would be flat.

I total disagree with you on the point of the Martial Arts. So are you now saying that the vast majority of people who do Martial Arts do MMA. If you think this you even more delusional that I first thought. Martial Arts have far more to offer people than two people rolling around in the ground punching and hugging each other. MMA is only the lastest thing it will come and go like so many other, and its passing will only be a moment in time. In 5 Years time it be something else, and all the guys who rant here will be gone and working away in some office ,that the way life evolve. Many of the kids who post here with the rants of MMA will have gone and the traditional arts will still be here. I hear the same rants in the 80's and in the 90's from different groups, the only difference internet give you gives a chance to rant. Tell me Mr. Roper if you guys feel so confident in everything you do, why do you need to feel to question everyone else, at the beginning its kinda cute that you are interested in what other people do, but after a while it smacks of something else. Do you not feel confident in your own training???. I may be wrong or I may be right in your views, but I'm completely happy in my own little world and I dont feel the need to go elsewhere with my training and you know what most of the students I trained feel the same, must be why we expanding in Ireland. Maybe it because we dont have to prove we real men as we focus more on developing ourselves than trying to beat another human being to earn respect from others of our kind. We dont train so we can hear the crowd sing our name when we defeat another human being in the ring. And along the road young innocent kids dream are destroy as they realise the only people making money and fame out of them is the coaches and promoters who promote the fasehood of the only way to prove you are a man is to fight in a ring. Look at the boxer's world how many actually made a living or money from it, a very tiny majority, but the coaches did well, along with the promoters and hanger ons.

If you wish to have discussion on Indonesian Internal culture and how it relates to Silat Training and would like to understand it Im more than willing to discuss it with you. You know where the classes are. But thats going to bore the rest of the forum. lets just agree the two art forms are very different and we each have different views. If you cannot accept that then you may have some issue with your own confidence in what you teach.

Ive answer all questions that been asked. If you any furthur questions from you or your buddies, feel free to contact me directly. If anyone else would like more details about Silat Training in Ireland than check out www.silateurope.com

judomick · 26-02-2006 12:40PM

Liam im kinda starting to feel sorry for you, your arguments are petty and childish, your trying to argue theory against facts, it doesnt work as facts are facts because thyey have been proven, heres a fact mma works tried and tested silat doesnt, does it give u spiritual enlightenmet maybe but its not quantifiable(sp) so this can be argued only you want to though

what the egyptians had was ancient knowledge, in that 2500 years ago was an ancient period, ancient knowledge does not mean they can pull donkeys out of there asses:D (thats one for the zoologists)

if you would like to find out more about bjj training in ireland please visit www.this is an advert because i want more students=money .com

dlofnep · 26-02-2006 12:51PM

silat liam wrote:

Hi Roper
I total disagree with you on the point of the Martial Arts. So are you now saying that the vast majority of people who do Martial Arts do MMA. If you think this you even more delusional that I first thought. Martial Arts have far more to offer people than two people rolling around in the ground punching and hugging each other. MMA is only the lastest thing it will come and go like so many other, and its passing will only be a moment in time. In 5 Years time it be something else, and all the guys who rant here will be gone and working away in some office ,that the way life evolve. Many of the kids who post here with the rants of MMA will have gone and the traditional arts will still be here.[/url]

For a guy who likes to think scientifically, or trys to at least - This is a very uneducated post. MMA will not be gne in 5 years. In fact, within the next 10 years it will become the most mainstream combat sport, surpassing even boxing.

MMA or vale tudo has been around for decades in brazil and as shooto in japan. It was commercialised as UFC in the USA and as Pancrase in Japan at the same time. This was 1993. 13 years later, we've seen the fall of MMA and the rebirth of MMA to what it has become today - A Mainstream sport. It has risen because it is a legit sport. Because it has governing bodies making sure the fighter's are safe. Just to show you how popular MMA is - In Japan Pride sells out 80'000 man stadiums while WWE can't even fill a 16'000 man stadium. And WWE is a very BIG organisation and known worldwide.

While everyone else got to grips with reality over the past 13 years Liam and realised what works and what doesn't, there are still some like you who are delusional.

So no, we'll still be here in 5 years posting. MMA is not only a recent thing, it's been around for decades as vale tudo in brazil and is only getting stronger . You'll still be probably trying to explain how intelligent design can be passed off as a plausible explaination for evolution while we'll be in our gyms, evolving even further.

Have a nice day.

MaxBax · 26-02-2006 12:59PM

dlofnep wrote:

For a guy who likes to think scientifically, or trys to at least - This is a very uneducated post. MMA will not be gne in 5 years. In fact, within the next 10 years it will become the most mainstream combat sport, surpassing even boxing.

gis a look at your crystal ball will ya?

Tim_Murphy · 26-02-2006 01:15PM

Maybe it because we dont have to prove we real men as we focus more on developing ourselves than trying to beat another human being to earn respect from others of our kind.

Going on comments like these I think it's fair to say that some people will never understand what competition is about.

Yes thats the theory I was talking about "intelligent theory". So now the scientist who dont follow your way of thinking are call "Christian fundamentalists". In all honesty you guys have a very selective view of life and I glad to see its not only martial arts people you guys label into section but the whole world. These people are scientist off a far higher degree than you and me here today. They spend there lives debating the theories of life so just to say they have an agenda to bring religion into schools is a very bias remark, buts it your view and thats cool, but I completely disagree with you.

You obviously don't know a lot about the theory of Intelligent Design. If you're interested in learning more about it there are forums on this site where it has been talked about at length. It's something that holds very little water in the scientific community.

Quotes from William Sanders

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