cannabis user jailed.

meditraitor · 08-02-2006 12:35PM

rubadub wrote:

like this argument? http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/327/7423/1070-c#40423
,

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7481/11

Or like these findings!

meditraitor · 08-02-2006 12:45PM

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Too much water is bad for you. FACT.

Out of the 57,500 registered users of boards, how many compared to cannabis(crux of the argument)have been harmed by excessive water consumption?

Give me a educated guess?

1
2
3
1000

Or to put it in laymans terms,
Water users = 100%
what percentage of these are being harmed by their use of said substance?

Cannabis Users = 10%(whatever)
What percentage of these are being harmed by their use of said substance?

this thread has decended into stupidity- I like that-

rubadub · 08-02-2006 12:50PM

meditraitor wrote:

The same way I am laughing at you for attributing or comparing the dangers of water consumption to cannibis consumption

When did I do that? I asked for a harmless substance to be named and you said water. You then went on to find information that proved yourself wrong...

End of story. I was not comparing it to cannabis consumption. I was displaying the illogical argument of saying things are harmful when everything is potentially harmful. If you read my previous posts I totally agree that cannabis is harmful. I dont see that as reason to ban it though, if we are to follow the same criteria as other legal drugs then I see no reasonable logic as to why it should be banned. If it was legal and alcohol wasn't we would be having the same arguments, but the argument against legalising alcohol would have a much harder case.

rubadub · 08-02-2006 12:53PM

meditraitor wrote:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/330/7481/11

Or like these findings!

Certainly! I saw all these before. it is a good objective website which doesnt take one side.
Binge drinking of alcohol (4 pints in one night BTW) causes mental disorders too, dementia. I haven't seen an argument that people suffering from dementia are more prone to be drinking anyway.

BTW are there any currently legal substances that you would like to see banned? Or do you think the government has it perfectly right?

meditraitor · 08-02-2006 01:02PM

rubadub wrote:

When did I do that? I asked for a harmless substance to be named and you said water. You then went on to find information that proved yourself wrong...

End of story. I was not comparing it to cannabis consumption. I was displaying the illogical argument of saying things are harmful when everything is potentially harmful. If you read my previous posts I totally agree that cannabis is harmful. I dont see that as reason to ban it though, if we are to follow the same criteria as other legal drugs then I see no reasonable logic as to why it should be banned. If it was legal and alcohol wasn't we would be having the same arguments, but the argument against legalising alcohol would have a much harder case.

No one here has made a logical argument for legalising cannabis,

just because our legal system has inherent flaws regarding alcohol and tobacco doesnt mean it should be further flawed by introducing cannabis to a society that finds it hard enough to moderate their intake of the drugs already available!

I will use a pub analogy

Its easier to stop trouble at the door than it is to get it out of your premises if you let it in,

Alcohol and tobacco are already in, would be damn hard to get rid of them even though they do add to our societies ill's,
But its a lot easier to refuse marajuana than it would be to get rid of it if the fears that exist in the vast majority of scientists and researchers is proven unconditionally. which in my opinion is only a matter of time!

cournioni · 08-02-2006 01:13PM

Fact is, if you abuse anything it will harm you. That goes for anything from water to cannabis.

meditraitor · 08-02-2006 01:24PM

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Fact is, if you abuse anything it will harm you. That goes for anything from water to cannabis.

Ok,

rubadub · 08-02-2006 01:47PM

meditraitor wrote:

I will use a pub analogy

Its easier to stop trouble at the door than it is to get it out of your premises if you let it in,

I have used a mcdonalds analogy in other threads. It is like not allowing mcdonalds to have a new lower fat burger on their menus since the menu already is so bad. Showing up the crazy logic that people will eat the same big mcmeal AND the new burger. They will not, they will just eat the same amount, until they are full. But now they have the choice of a less harmful alternative, or even just an alternative (whats wrong with choice). I do see far less drunks in holland, though in other tourist resorts like santa ponsa people tend to get ever drunker than at home. I smoke very small amounts but when I did see people having a "smoke session" they only drink a few cans along with it. If drinking too they will tend to smoke less too. I am physically unable, and unwanting to chug down beer while high. If just drinking I may do X pints, and if just smoking X pipes, but if I do both I do less than 1/2 of each, certainly not the same amount of each I normally would.

If cannabis and alcohol were both legal I would certainly prefer to see my kids choosing cannabis. I see it as the least harmful.

With the pub analogy it is like stopping the scumbags they can at the door and just turning a blind eye to the real scumbags inside tearing up the place. Prohibition in the US showed just how bad it was, throw the scum out and they are so bad nobody can stop them getting back in. Something should be done either way. Ban the lot or treat them the same. It is the hypocrisy that upsets me far more than indiviual illegalities.

meditraitor · 08-02-2006 02:00PM

rubadub wrote:

I do see far less drunks in holland, .

I would rather have our drink fuelled feckers than some of the scum in Holland, its not all its cracked up to be, especially Amsterdam!
Smokers seem to think its some type of heavan, go and live there then and see what it is really like......its a kip
And check out the murder rates, always in the top 3 in europe! In 1996/97 only Moscow and Amsterdam had a Higher per-capa murder rate than belfast(yes belfast- some nasty fukers around belfast at that time)

rubadub wrote:

. It is the hypocrisy that upsets me far more than indiviual illegalities.

Couldnt agree more;)

rubadub · 08-02-2006 02:09PM

meditraitor wrote:

I would rather have our drink fuelled feckers than some of the scum in Holland, its not all its cracked up to be, especially Amsterdam!
Smokers seem to think its some type of heavan, go and live there then and see what it is really like......its a kip

Yep it is a shady place, I never had trouble though. It is a haven for drug dealers due to lax laws and the fact it is one of the biggest ports in europe and so the perfect stop off point for drug traffickers. No doubt it has a high murder count with so many competing gangs and international drug smugglers killing each other scarface style.
All I was getting at was that in the local bars and smokeshops I do not see the same levels of anitsocial inebriation that I would in other touristy spots. I saw many stag and hen parties there and they were far more coherent and not causing a fuss like the temple bar gangs. Outside there are lots of dealers who I never had trouble with and would never buy from.
I know guys who lived there a while in the countryside, very nice place.

slipss · 08-02-2006 06:15PM

The simple fact of the matter is if you try to make out to people that smoking cannibas will make you go insane by overhyping the pretty uncommon stories like the one posted by the op, then it will have a negative effect on anti-drug campaigns. People will still try cannibas because human beings are extremely curious creatures by nature and learn through experimentation. But when they see that themselves or none of the people they know that have been smoking hash for years suffer from schizophrenia, then they will be less inclined to believe other more valid arguments for not taking drugs.

The trueth is that for the vast majority of people smoking reasonable amounts of hash won't have any severe negative effects, one e won't kill you, one hit of heroin won't turn you into complete junkie, cocaine probably isn't going to destroy your nose or make you into some kind of crazy nutcase, and one tab of lsd won't make you think you are a glass of orange juice for the rest of your life.
Over exagerating the facts and basically lying to people about the risks involved in taking drugs to try and scare them into steering clear of drugs is just counter-productive and really not very intelligent.

toString · 08-02-2006 07:04PM

slipss wrote:

But when they see that themselves or none of the people they know that have been smoking hash for years suffer from schizophrenia, then they will be less inclined to believe other more valid arguments for not taking drugs.

What about paranoia? memory loss? the list goes on

slipss wrote:

and one tab of lsd won't make you think you are a glass of orange juice for the rest of your life.

Mushrooms (the same thing) made a guy jump off a roof (in the news a few weeks ago)

slipss wrote:

Over exagerating the facts and basically lying to people about the risks involved in taking drugs to try and scare them into steering clear of drugs is just counter-productive and really not very intelligent.

Noone is over exagerating the facts, people here are ignoring them and using water (???, probably another effect from smoking too much) as a counter argument

Wertz · 08-02-2006 08:03PM

toString wrote:

With your 15 years of experience with the mushrooms how would you rate your short term memory?

As already mentioned I wasn't talking about mushrooms (which I've not done for a fair while)....now what was the question again? :v:

Meditraitor wrote:

Apology not accepted, silly analogy, go after the drinking laws then! drink is not even related to cannabis, neither are nuclear bombs, cans or diet coke, prostitutes, all will have effects on you! blah stupidy blah.

Silly analogy? Let me see; I compared one recreational drug in wide usage, with another recreational drug in wide usage (albeit illegal), one of which is proven to commonly lead to outbreaks of violent behaviour amongst users, the other of which random rare occurences of mental illness are reported to have caused...I fail to see what better analogy I could have used...
Cans of diet coke, nuclear bombs and prostitutes don't usually have noticable direct effects in terms of mental health (although artificial sweeteners used in the drinks industry are thought in some circles to have a harmful effect on the brain and kidneys when comsumed in large doses) so I fail to see what your point is in mentioning them.

I'm not anti-alcohol, I'm pro-cannabis....many many people responsibly enjoy the effects of alcohol every weekend in this and many other countries; but then the exact same can be said of cannabis and other recreational drugs.
Conversely, a lot of people get killed or injured every week both directly and indirectly by alcohol....the amounts that do, far outweigh the direct/indirect effects of all other illegal recreational drugs combined (I'm not digging through google to find a trustworthy link but I know the UK's NHS have done comprehensive studies on this).
Of course you can argue that because alcohol is a legal intoxicant, that a lot more people will use it and so we'll see a lot more negative effects....but surveys have shown that a fairly high percentage of adults use cannabis on a regualr basis, yet the amount of negative effects, especially violent behaviour in comparison is close to being negligibly low.

Listen, fact is if you sit in the house every day smoking well above the normal daily dose, you'll become withdrawn and paranoid and develop problems....but hey, sit in the house all day and drink a litre of vodka and you develop alcohol psychosis, burn out your heart, liver and brain and run a much, much higher chance of developing an aggressive and potentially violent personality.
We're back to the water argument again; anything that you put into your bodily system in large enough quantities is potentially harmful. This includes water, oxygen, Kellogs cocoa pops etc etc....the trick is knowing what is excessive.

toString · 08-02-2006 08:18PM

Lets try this again then,

With your 15 years of experience taking cannabis, how would you rate your short term memory? Would you consider yourself as being paranoid?

1 being bad 10 being excellent

psilocybe · 08-02-2006 08:20PM

toString wrote:

Mushrooms (the same thing) made a guy jump off a roof (in the news a few weeks ago)

Mushrooms are not the same as LSD, they are two distinctly different chemicals and it is highly unlikely that they made him jump off the roof if you actually take into account the facts that he was drinking alcohol beforehand and he had apparently only taken the mushrooms 30 mins before he died also nobody is comparing cannabis to water, Rubabdub was merely pointing out that all substanses are dangerous in excess including water.

toString · 08-02-2006 08:24PM

psilocybe wrote:

Mushrooms are not the same as LSD, they are two distinctly different chemicals and it is highly unlikely that they made him jump off the roof if you actually take into account the facts that he was drinking alcohol beforehand and he had apparently only taken the mushrooms 30 mins before he died

That's not fact, that's your opinion

psilocybe wrote:

also nobody is comparing cannabis to water, Rubabdub was merely pointing out that all substanses are dangerous in excess including water.

I agree, anything in excess is dangerous, that does not make it a valid argument for legalising the drug,
my point is the argument in invalid

psilocybe · 08-02-2006 08:31PM

It is a fact that LSD and Psilocybin are different chemicals, it is my opinion that the mushrooms were not the cause of that guys death.
Nobody is using water as a counter-argrument, it is simply an example of how all substanses are dangerous in excess, some more than cannabis some less than cannabis.

Wertz · 08-02-2006 09:06PM

toString wrote:

Lets try this again then,

With your 15 years of experience taking cannabis, how would you rate your short term memory? Would you consider yourself as being paranoid?

1 being bad 10 being excellent

It's pretty hard for me to answer that as I've spent almost half my life smoking it...I can't readily compare my short term memory prior to being a user with my current state.
That said, I'd rate my short term memory (when I'm not uder it's influence, which is most of the day) as 7-8...I'd say aging plays as much a role in it's detriment as my cannabis use (which is fairly light, but regular).
As for paranoid, no more than the next person...I'm very self conscious but then I always have been. Paranoia is and can be an effect of heavy smoking...no user will tell you different...and It'd probably be safe to say that it's nowhere near the level that actual clinical paranoia is...

BTW what's with all the mushroom talk? this is a thread about cannabis...
I see you subscribe to the media frenzy surrounding the guy who jumped from the roof in Dublin at haloween.
As for the water toxicity thing; no-one is using it as a valid reason to legalise cannabis. Read back in the thread to see hoiw it cropped up to begin with...rubabdub never used it as a legalisation validation...he merely rebutted Meditraitor's "harmless substance" comment.
It's like the Joe Duffy show on the ecstasy survey @ TCD all over again...

toString · 08-02-2006 09:44PM

I cant say I'm not anti-drugs because I am, but I haven't always been, I have dabbled a bit in the past. I have seen other peoples personalities change from recreational usage of various drugs, with both paranoia and short term memory problems, as well as them becoming inverted.

The mushroom link was with your signature. About the guy a few weeks ago, can you honestly say you have never had a bad trip?

I think the ecstasy survey @ TCD was a good idea. Research is what is needed to find out, clarify and redefine the facts.

Wertz · 08-02-2006 10:18PM

Fair enough I've had some not so nice experiences on hallucinogens....but it was acid not mushies, and I never felt the need to kill myself over them.
Then again I never mixed either mushies or acid with anyhting, not even weed and especially not drink.
I honestly think the thing about the guy throwing himself off the apartment block is far more of a grey area than the black and white issue that many sides (including our collective opinions on boards) in the argument, are making; none of us know what was going through his head at the time, we don't know what was his primary trigger...it could have been the mushrooms, it could have been the wine, it could well have been an interaction of either, it could have been something said to him or directed at him whilst under the influence, it could have been something that was building in him for weeks or months...the fact is that we don't know.

As was stated in a thread on here, back when it happened, if the guy had only had the two bottles of wine or whatever, then his death would have been branded either a suicide or an accident and most likely would never have made it past an obituary and a small column in his local newspaper, but throw something controversial like psilocybin mushrooms into the equation and we have the media frenzy I spoke of above and the subsequent action by the Tánaiste.

I have the utmost sympathy for the family and friends of this guy, but the legal move was based solely on placating their bereavement whilst neatly suiting the government's agenda in a very nice, easy, low cost move that made it look like they're being tough on important issues to parents (read voters)
Anyways, we're veering slightly OT here so I'll leave the rhetoric at that...

pisslips · 08-02-2006 11:26PM

The fact that I got my opinions from the pro-smoking side of the media, as you so presumtually declare, pretty much seconds my argument of a biased media but perhaps not so right-wing as the angle you seem to argue from.

Also, I've had "bad trips from shrooms" but it doesn't mean that I shouldn't have the right to just because i'm a citizen of Ireland.

As far as the argument that we all have a history of mental illness in or families, I would go further and say that all peole are mentally ill, some more so than others in respect of the bench mark of perfect mental health. Psychology has no proof behind it's techniques, just some general assumptions.

Therefore without any axioms of truth we cannot have an argument.

"I think , therefore I am" , mind you I could be several hundred years too late.

Bla, IMO, My opinion is more valid , IMO.

toString · 08-02-2006 11:57PM

I think the nonsensical ramblings of pisslips has probably killed off this thread

pisslips · 09-02-2006 12:11AM

toString wrote:

I think the nonsensical ramblings of pisslips has probably killed off this thread

I was voted "most likely to kill off threads in my old school"
But ignoring everthing else.
Why can't I just get destroyed and jump off a rooftop, I mean It's selfish of me to do it but it's selfish of my loved ones to feel angry seen as how their only upset because it detrementally affects them(someone gonna hurt me).
Also It was the "victims" dying wish.

Anyones argument can be proven and disproven with these dynamic axioms.

Lets all evolve and just believe in somethin because it gives us purpose rather than because we think it's right, grow up.

That sounds egotistical but I addmit it's bull.

Lets go back to argueing semantics, (ehh... "you can't spell duhh..."

toString · 09-02-2006 12:20AM

First of all, for your own sake(I'm not being evil here) please look for professional help!

pisslips wrote:

Anyones argument can be proven and disproven with these dynamic axioms.

Your seem to be partial to the dynamic axiom but can you define the assignment axiom???

pisslips wrote:

Lets all evolve and just believe in somethin because it gives us purpose rather than because we think it's right, grow up.

That sounds egotistical but I addmit it's bull.

it is bull and you know it!

Esel · 09-02-2006 01:32AM

toString wrote:

...I have seen other peoples personalities change from recreational usage of various drugs, with both paranoia and short term memory problems, as well as them becoming inverted....

Yeah, I hate when people become inverted - you think they're smiling when they're really frowning, and viceski-verski.

pisslips · 09-02-2006 03:24AM

O.k. so by defintion an axiom can't be dynamic but I don't care and when I die the whole world dies as far as I'm concerned. You only exist as a character of my story, and vice verski.Just get chemically stimulated and die, don't aspire to some random dream inspired by another random dream.............action and reaction.One is upset because of the void left in ones life. Mother theresa helped people to earn the love and respect of god, because thats how she was conditioned.
A lot of christians "Believe" out of fear.It's not pessimism.

How do I know history ever existed or even yesterday? I woke up with a memory and I die every day.

How can you even condemn this to the realms of jibberish.This is a question.
Why do you presume that you'll die someday?We have no real understanding of the past or the future. Just a signature in our memory banks, no more than a computer can realise the past.Most people won't put there own **** in their mouths or have sex with their mothers( froidian is voidian) because they were conditioned not to. Why don't i feel like suckin on a centapede or shoot up on heroin?

Whats the plural of dolmen?

R0ot · 09-02-2006 03:54AM

deserved i say

rubadub · 09-02-2006 11:37AM

toString wrote:

I agree, anything in excess is dangerous, that does not make it a valid argument for legalising the drug,
my point is the argument in invalid

As mentioned many times nobody was saying "water can be dangerous so legalise cannabis".
The point is that there is no point in a blunt statement that "all potentially harmful substances should be banned" or "all substances that are addictive should be banned". I was pointing out how logic like that will lead to everything being banned, every substance is potentially harmful, and every substance is potentially addicitive, you cannot prove something is not addictive.

toString wrote:

both paranoia and short term memory problems

I have seen users get very paranoid and have short term memory loss, but only while taking the drug. Just like a drunk will tell the same story over and over in the pub thinking he never said it. Instead of paranoia the drunk gets the opposite, up for anything and sometimes aggressive. IME when sober on cannabis & drink these effects are gone.

toString wrote:

can you honestly say you have never had a bad trip?

I never have. I would certainly not equate mushrooms and LSD like you did. It is very difficult to guage how much LSD you are taking, the trip lasts about 3 times as long which can cause more anxiety. In the 60's in Harvard experimenters could not even concieve that you could have a "bad trip", they were taking psilocybin. Only when LSD arrived did they start to have bad trips. Do you really think the possibility of a "bad trip" is reason for a substance to be banned, people get in blackouts on drink and can have very bad times.

I keep asking all the anti-cannabis/mushroom posters if they would like to see any other currently legal drug banned and have yet to get any answers? (or have the government got it perfectly right)

slipss · 10-02-2006 07:06PM

toString wrote:

What about paranoia? memory loss? the list goes on

Mushrooms (the same thing) made a guy jump off a roof (in the news a few weeks ago)

Noone is over exagerating the facts, people here are ignoring them and using water (???, probably another effect from smoking too much) as a counter argument

What about memory loss, paranoia? I've yet to see cannibas make someone paranoid unless they were paranoid people already. The short term memory loss wears off pretty much imediately when use is stopped. (and I don't think I need to tell you that excessive use of alcohol has a much more severe effect on short term memory)

Mushrooms are not the same as lsd, besides the fact the are both halucinagens, not by any stretch of the imagination, they are completely different in effect and chemicaly. They aren't even catagorised in the same chemical grouping. As for your man in dun laoghre jumping off the balcony there is no evidence the mushrooms made him do that. It was reported that they made him think he could fly, but he never mentioned flying to anybody, he didn't even talk immediatly prior to jumping. he just commited suicide.

As for people refering to death by drinking too much water, the are simply trying to illustrate how any substance can have a negative effect on your body when you consume too much of it, there was nothing said about using it as a counter argument.

cannabis user jailed.

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