Muhammad and the Bomb (threat)

Hobbes · 02-02-2006 08:48PM

boardy wrote:

Yes, we are very repressed here especially when compared to life in a Muslim country.

Depends on which Muslim country you refer to.

Are your analogies meant to draw protests for you to refute?

No. Your welcome to agree with them.

boardy · 02-02-2006 09:38PM

Hobbes wrote:

Depends on which Muslim country you refer to.

I was trying to think of the least repressive Muslim country, but couldn't name it.

If we ban cartoons then what's next? Maybe remove piggy banks from banks. Wait a second; they've done that already:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/10/25/113304.shtml

Wibbs · 02-02-2006 10:07PM

Hobbes wrote:

We have a free society? News to me. Try posting in a newspaper for a request for a child to have sexual relations with. Or posting that all Blacks should be killed. Or how about walking through town a T-Shirt with porn printed on it. Or post in a paper where to get an abortion in England?

Fair point. BTW I think T-shirt hell.com would have covered at least a few of the above.:D

Depends on which Muslim country you refer to.

Can you give an example of an Islamic country that has less press restrictions than our own?

mike65 · 02-02-2006 10:35PM

There is'nt one, Islamic States as opposed to states with an Islamic population in them, are run by the clergy either directly or by proxy.

I just read that UK media are publishing the pictures in a very particular context acording to the Guardian.

Mike.

Snickers Man · 03-02-2006 10:13AM

secret_squirrel wrote:

Afaik the specific UK blasphemy law is still Christianity only. So that cartoon wouldnt fall under it.

However I imagine it would fall under the new law they brought in last year or so covering Promoting Religious/Racial intolerance.

I'm no lawyer, but I suspect that the ruling of the judge in the Whitehouse/Gay News case that the law should be interpreted as applying to all religions instead of being removed because of obsolescence might have some bearing on any Muslim bringing a case for blasphemous libel.

But I really don't know.

Freddie59 · 03-02-2006 01:21PM

Wibbs wrote:

I think there were seven of the originl ones that caused the problem. The bomb in the turban one wasn't the "worst" either. Mohammad in heaven turning back bombers because they had run out of virgins was another. They're out there on the web. I won't post them here for obvious reasons. The wiki article has a full breakdown IIRC.

I've seen them...And, as a Catholic, I've seen/heard worse about God, the Pope, etc. Why won't you post them? We are having this discussion on a forum which is due to the fact the we live in a democracy. We may not always agree with all things, but we must be free to discuss them.:mad:

Freddie59 · 03-02-2006 01:27PM

boardy wrote:

Yes, we are very repressed here especially when compared to life in a Muslim country.

Of course we are. That's why every one here enjoys the following (including yourself):

1. We can feel free to express their views without fear of repercussion.

2. Women are free to dress as they choose and free to make decisions about their lives.

3. Sons and daughters are cherished equally.

4. We may protest when required/feel the need.

5. We are allowed to develop our own opinions (it's called a democracy)

6. Take or leave the instructions of their church/religion.

I take it all of these are allowed in Muslim countries?

Fair point Boardy. I'll take the West ahead of Islam every time.

Freddie59 · 03-02-2006 01:29PM

Wibbs wrote:

Can you give an example of an Islamic country that has less press restrictions than our own?

All of them.

Freddie59 · 03-02-2006 01:32PM

Hobbes wrote:

We have a free society? News to me. Try posting in a newspaper for a request for a child to have sexual relations with.

Are you saying this is normal practice in a Muslim country?

stuartfanning · 03-02-2006 02:22PM

If you want to see all the cartoons, decent size pictures, check the link below.

http://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html

Pictures censored by Digital Spy.

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=339344

the_dart · 03-02-2006 03:25PM

These guys are nuts. I saw on Sky News this morning that they stroemd the Danish embassy in Jakarta and started burning flags etc. I also saw they had a protest outside the BBC in London. One of them held a placard:

"Butcher those who mock Islam"

- Hobbes, are these the kind of Islamic actions that you support? Because any sane person would take the view that there is something seriously wrong with these people.

flogen · 03-02-2006 03:50PM

The london protest is pretty harsh too

Kill those who insult Islam etc., I don't think the pictures were the right thing to do, but the reaction seems to be ten times worse.

Hobbes · 03-02-2006 04:11PM

Freddie59 wrote:

Are you saying this is normal practice in a Muslim country?

No I am saying that there is no such thing as Free Speech. There are just varying levels of what is acceptable speech.

A very good example is Abortion. You are not allowed under Irish law to discuss where someone can get an abortion in a public place (eg. Newspaper). Likewise see how many rights a woman has who says she is planning to travel for an abortion and doesn't fit the critieria that allows her to travel. Or in delivering a child the mothers life is not considered even if there is a chance the child may not live after being delivered.

So all you free speeching spouters, prehaps you should look into what Free speech actually means.

- Hobbes, are these the kind of Islamic actions that you support? Because any sane person would take the view that there is something seriously wrong with these people.

As I have already said I do not condone the use of violence as a reaction to this cartoon. That said only an idiot would of assumed that nothing would of happened along these lines.

Take a look at the Miss World pagent in Nigeria. Numerous people died and a woman now lives in fear of her life in another country because of 1 sentance in a newspaper meant in jest.

Incidently, any joy finding those pages refuting what I posted on news/media? Seem to have given up on that.

flogen · 03-02-2006 04:52PM

Hobbes wrote:

Incidently, any joy finding those pages refuting what I posted on news/media? Seem to have given up on that.

Please keep the thread on topic; the dart's decision to ignore a point made on another thread has no bearing on his comments here; any failure on his part to engage in serious discussion will though and does not need to be pointed out to anyone.

Wibbs · 03-02-2006 05:36PM

Hobbes wrote:

As I have already said I do not condone the use of violence as a reaction to this cartoon.

Yes you did in fairness. Some seem to miss that though. Good to repeat.

That said only an idiot would of assumed that nothing would of happened along these lines.

Take a look at the Miss World pagent in Nigeria. Numerous people died and a woman now lives in fear of her life in another country because of 1 sentance in a newspaper meant in jest.

Basically(and correct me if I'm wrong), what your saying is that Muslims can be a load of reactionary violent types and you should choose to print or not print on that basis. Some pressure group they got goin' there.

flogen · 03-02-2006 06:11PM

My stand on the whole issue is this;
Yes, all religions face satirical cartoons from time to time; they may complain but they don't threaten life.
However, while all religions are against blasphemous statements, no big religions, excluding Islam have a rule against the drawing of their God. From what I understand, it doesn't matter if it's an insulting drawing, you're not supposed to do it full stop.
Now, if the cartoon (the bomb-turbin one) was saying that Islam is infact a terrorism-based religion, it's a terribly ignorant conclusion to make and not one that any responsible newspaper should condone. However, and this is what the claim seems to be, if the image was a metaphor for the use of the religion by extremists to mask their terrorist outrages then that's a fair comment to make but it should be one done with respect of the rules of the religion; surely these cartoonists and satarists are clever enough to make their point without having to show dis-respect to the basic beliefs of a religion? It's hard to compare these drawings to Christian-based ones as there is nothing in the bible that forbids the drawing of Jesus christ or God (whatever it looks like).
All in all though; the reaction has been absurd and if the intention of the cartoon was to highlight the use of Islam by extremists it has proven its point. It's understandable to be angered by a cartoon that ignores the beliefs of your religions, but to threaten death is far too extreme and far from constructive; it is sure to be used to vilify the west even more than ever in the way Unionists and Republicans use ignorance on the other side as proof that there is no middle ground.

Suff · 03-02-2006 06:50PM

Hobbes wrote:

Just because having our religon made fun of doesn't bother us doesn't mean it automatically equates to another culture.

Excellent Point!

Suff · 03-02-2006 06:52PM

Wibbs wrote:

You keep saying that, but do you honestly think embassies would be withdrawn, flags would be burnt and people would going into hiding on fear of death from the likes of French, Irish or German Christians/buddhists or Jews? So I'm afraid in the real world, it's an entirely different threat level we're talking about here.

dunno but I'm sure that Israel would do something big if europe printed such images, btw Germany still to this day pay Israel compensation for the Holucost so I would guess that if germany printed anything of that sort Israel will be just as mad!

Suff · 03-02-2006 07:11PM

I am Angry and Insulted.

I can understand the anger around the world and the violent langauge thats been used. at the begining when the pictures were published the muslim community asked the newspaper to stop and apologies, they refused, the community turned to the goverment for help, ...nothing...no one is going to acknowledge the insult.

the last resort was the large protests and the Boycotting of Danish products.
which I suport!

you need to consider the large size of the protests, there are bound to be some people with extreme views {violent slogens}
however I would not agree to any violent action or the burning of the Danish flag just yet!

I would see this going further unless the Danish newspaper and the Danish goverment provide some sort of an believible appology.

Hobbes · 03-02-2006 08:40PM

Wibbs wrote:

Basically(and correct me if I'm wrong), what your saying is that Muslims can be a load of reactionary violent types and you should choose to print or not print on that basis. Some pressure group they got goin' there.

Some countries, yes are very reactionary and have been for some time. Quite a few of the countries even have laws that forbid these type of cartoons being made. Define a "load". Lets be honest here Muslims make up approx 22% of the population of the world. If the majority were seriously pissed off you would know about it.

CiaranC · 03-02-2006 08:47PM

I would see this going further unless the Danish newspaper and the Danish goverment provide some sort of an believible appology.

Apology my arse. Muslim attacks on western free speech are just as insulting to westerners as cartoons depicting the sinister side of Islam is to you.

Suff · 03-02-2006 09:47PM

CiaranC wrote:

Apology my arse. Muslim attacks on western free speech are just as insulting to westerners as cartoons depicting the sinister side of Islam is to you.

Keep your arse to yourself!

there is a difference between the freedom of speech and the freedom to insult!

the_dart · 03-02-2006 10:49PM

"Incidently, any joy finding those pages refuting what I posted on news/media? Seem to have given up on that."

Incidentally, I've been locked out of my account since this afternoon directly after my last post was made. Seems my password no longer worked and I had to send off for the password to be reset.

I don't reckon it was accidentally or technical error either, what do you reckon?

the_dart · 03-02-2006 10:51PM

As regards this topic.

I'm glad that The Star decided to publish the cartoon. I saw on Sky News Ireland this evening that the Irish Muslim Community has stated that they respect our freedom of speech laws but that the governemnt should pass legislation to prevent things like this that from being published.

Hmmmm... interesting....

Freddie59 · 04-02-2006 08:37AM

the_dart wrote:

These guys are nuts.

They're not - - they are cowards. It's always the same. Storming of some civilan building somewhere that can't fight back. And these are the ones who go on about 'Imperialist America' using it's 'might'. Can you only imagine what would happen if these people had access to that same might? Thank God for America.

Freddie59 · 04-02-2006 08:41AM

flogen wrote:

My stand on the whole issue is this;
Yes, all religions face satirical cartoons from time to time; they may complain but they don't threaten life.

Indeed. In London at the minute there is an exhibition of the crucified Christ on the Cross with a four-letter word attached (I won't mention it here) and an amount of naked buttocks around the base. Now, I personally feel that this is not artistic expression and should not be allowed, but I also feel that God, not I, is the one who will judge the person who has created this abomination.

CiaranC · 04-02-2006 09:02AM

there is a difference between the freedom of speech and the freedom to insult!

No, there isnt. Herein lies the fundamental misconception Islamists have about freedom of speech. Freedom of speech covers my freedom to say something you dont want to hear, not just what you find acceptable.

Wibbs · 04-02-2006 09:43AM

^^^ Well put. That's exactly it. I take Hobbes point that the whole concept of freedom of speech has boundaries and responsibility comes into it, but reaction like this from a vocal and seemingly significant percentage of the Muslim world is OTT. What's worse I think is the willingness of some sections of the media taking the bend over backwards approach to say how sorry "we" are. I admire Islam for that, at least they stick to their guns.

Hagar · 04-02-2006 11:12AM

Hobbes wrote:

A very good example is Abortion. You are not allowed under Irish law to discuss where someone can get an abortion in a public place (eg. Newspaper).

Can you do this in Muslim countries?

Suff · 04-02-2006 11:33AM

The west needs to understand the difference between freedom to speak your mind and the freedom to be insulting and vulgar while hiding behind the "Freedom of Speech".

Funny that only in the west you would find a statue of Christ with ofensive words and some male parts (How sick) if the west has lost its morals values do you want the world to copy it!

Moral values, respect towards religious icons from whatever religion can only show the level of RESPECT ,UNDERSTANDING and TOLLERNCE that people have for each other

at the moment the West seems to be running low on that.

Muhammad and the Bomb (threat)

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