Muhammad and the Bomb (threat)

Wibbs

Lazydaisy wrote:

I may not like your opinion but I will defend your right to have it and to speak it.

Bang on the money. If we look at it another way. The problem I have is that Muslims are calling this insulting to their prophet and blasphemy and as such can't be printed or shown in any media. Well they(and other faiths) do this on a daily basis. When they proclaim from every minaret that "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" they are effectively saying that the Hindus, Christians, Pagans, Jews, Atheists etc are all wrong and are basically going to an Islamic hell(forget the potential for violence meted out in this life). As a book the Quran itself is a blasphemy to christians, jews and pagans as it states over and over that they are wrong. Is this not insulting to those of other beliefs? Do we ban the Quran or other religious texts? No, we don't. I hate to tell them, but there are other points of view. If every Jew freaked out when Christians called Jesus the messiah, the world would go mad. This is what the Islamic world doesn't seem to get and throws the rattle out of the pram when they don't get their way.

Freddie59 wrote:

Well done! It must be remembered that Osama bin Laden, when asked what his idea of the perfect Islamic state was replied with 'The Taliban have it just right in Afghanistan'. For all of you who may be curious, here's a report on the treatment of women in that'perfect Islamic State.

Yes, and it was pointed out to you how dubious a quote that was as he was under their protection at the time. Not about to slag 'em off was he? As for their treatment of women, the report is old, but I grant you, the whole bunch of Abrahamic religions are unreal in their attitude to women.

pH wrote:

The fundamental issue seems to be that you cannot draw a picture of muhammed at all. I cannot see how any member of the Islamic faith can expect that rule to apply to any non-muslims.

Good point. I like to chow down on rashers on a regular basis. Does this mean I insult our Jewish or Muslim friends? If I dress up on halloween do the pagans and wiccan throw a wobbler. No, they don't. Many in the Islamic world come to the west from dodgy regimes. They have to understand that in order to have freedom of speech and religion(and I do see the irony and difficulties with those terms), they must understand that you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Look, as anyone will know if they see my posting on the subject, I'm not exactly Islam's biggest fan. Not by a long shot, but we have to get in a dialogue to draw boundaries that insure our hard won freedoms while acting in a responsible way on both sides. My worry is that the radical end of the Muslim spectrum is growing and backing down to this dangerous childish tantrum throwing everytime they don't get their way in the media is a dangerous path to follow.

Hobbes wrote:

Despite what Ph mentions depicting Muhammed is not illegal (except in certain countries). the_syco on one of the threads posts a link detailing every depiction of Muhammad to this point. South park being one of them.

Partially true. While the_syco's link does show images of Muhammad, it is forbidden by Islam and as such in 99% of Muslim countries would be circumscribed.

Freddie59 wrote:

Apparently the guy dressed in the fake suicide bomb in London last week is.........wait for it..........a convicted drug dealer.

Guess what he's a hypocrite. The Muslims don't corner the market in those.

flogen

Wibbs wrote:

Bang on the money. If we look at it another way. The problem I have is that Muslims are calling this insulting to their prophet and blasphemy and as such can't be printed or shown in any media. Well they(and other faiths) do this on a daily basis. When they proclaim from every minaret that "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" they are effectively saying that the Hindus, Christians, Pagans, Jews, Atheists etc are all wrong and are basically going to an Islamic hell(forget the potential for violence meted out in this life). As a book the Quran itself is a blasphemy to christians, jews and pagans as it states over and over that they are wrong. Is this not insulting to those of other beliefs?

Name me a mainstream religion that doesn't believe itself to be the one true religion?

Do we ban the Quran or other religious texts? No, we don't. I hate to tell them, but there are other points of view. If every Jew freaked out when Christians called Jesus the messiah, the world would go mad. This is what the Islamic world doesn't seem to get and throws the rattle out of the pram when they don't get their way.

I think you are getting confused between the Islamic world and the vocal minority of extremists within it.

Yes, and it was pointed out to you how dubious a quote that was as he was under their protection at the time. Not about to slag 'em off was he? As for their treatment of women, the report is old, but I grant you, the whole bunch of Abrahamic religions are unreal in their attitude to women.

But Bin Laden in a fundamentalist and extremists... of course he liked the way the Taliban operated.

It comes down to this; Islamists should have respect for the Western ideal of free speech, and for other religions. The fact that the west believes in the free practice of religion allows them to exist in Europe because in most European countries, if the state banned all religions except their own you would be sure it would all be Christian.
However, as part of free speech we must not hinder the rights of others; it is part of their religion that you do not draw the prophet, I don't think respecting that belief is hindering anyone. Satarists can still make use of many images to get their point across; and I'm not criticising the original point of these cartoons, I'm criticising the way they were executed.

The problem now is that fringe elements have siezed upon this; it's no longer a publication in Denmark that is responsible, they will have their people believe it is the Denmark officials, the European officials etc., like the EU got together and made a propaganda magazine just to do this; I suppose in states in the Middle East the government publication is a fact of life, and I hate to sound patronising but perhaps they assume that this is how all publications across the globe work.

pH

Good point. I like to chow down on rashers on a regular basis. Does this mean I insult our Jewish or Muslim friends? If I dress up on halloween do the pagans and wiccan throw a wobbler. No, they don't. Many in the Islamic world come to the west from dodgy regimes. They have to understand that in order to have freedom of speech and religion(and I do see the irony and difficulties with those terms), they must understand that you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Exactly. If I was to offer ham sandwiches at a Muslim wedding it is easy to see how that could be considered offensive. If I serve them at my wedding - if you take offense that's entirely your problem.

If I draw pictures of mohammed on your mosque wall or on the back of your Koran then what I'm doing is equally offensive. If I draw them in a secular western newspaper then the offense is your problem.

Many UKers are up in arms about how the BBC was fine to depict Jesus as an overweight homosexual in a nappy in an opera, yet refuses to show anything more than a flash of the images that are at the center of this. If Springer the opera is fine (and it is in my opnion) then an image of mohammed is equally fine.

It reminds me of the old chestnut that :

"We should always be tolerant"
... and the counter
"Well should we be tolerant of intolerance?"

Quite the paradox!

Hobbes

pH wrote:

If I draw them in a secular western newspaper then the offense is your problem.

So if Middle Eastern papers depict Jewish people as evil in cartoons we shouldn't feel outraged too? That is what you appear to be saying and I disagree with.

Last time I checked offending someone in a publication tends not to go down well whatever country you are in.

boardy

Hobbes wrote:

So if Middle Eastern papers depict Jewish people as evil in cartoons we shouldn't feel outraged too?

Stay tuned ......
It seems that the biggest Iranian daily newspaper is looking for cartoons of the holocaust so that they can print them.

flogen

boardy wrote:

Stay tuned ......
It seems that the biggest Iranian daily newspaper is looking for cartoons of the holocaust so that they can print them.

That's not too far from what Iranian publications do anyway...
For one, two wrongs don't make a right.
Secondly, any insulting cartoons in Iran in the past have usually targetted Sharon and Israel agression rather than a pillar of the Jewish faith; they've been insulting to Jewish people, yes, but the details make it harder to compare the two.

pH

So if Middle Eastern papers depict Jewish people as evil in cartoons we shouldn't feel outraged too? That is what you appear to be saying and I disagree with.

Political cartoons by their very nature are caricatures. The cartoon in question to me is mild compared to other cartoons printed.



Are you saying that the particular cartoon of mohammed with the "bomb-turban" is offensive or that *any* cartoon of mohammed is offensive?

CiaranC

Name me a mainstream religion that doesn't believe itself to be the one true religion?

Budhism?

liberalbuster

The cartoon in itself is not a big story, the Wests' reaction to these Islamic bullyboys is now vitally important. Freedom of expression and general liberty is something alien to Islam. Look at any Islamic country, Iran, Syria for example, places where Christianity and Judaism are mocked constantly. Of course we in the West do not react with hysteria. The most important thing is that the West is not bullied by Islamic Fascists into becoming mirror images of hellholes like Afganistan, Iran etc etc. We are rightly proud of our freedoms and tolerance. While I would not have recommended the releasing of these cartoons prior to this situation, now I think every European paper should go ahead and publish.

mike65 wrote:

They going nuts is the Islamic world over some cartoons published in Denmark last October (yes it was months ago!). It was only when the pictures were published in Norway that the middle east noticed and now thanks to plenty of fire stoking from the Iranian government that its all getting a bit silly. Today newspapers across Europe published the images though not here yet.

http://www.uriasposten.net/pics/JP-011005-Muhammed-Westerga.jpg

I was just watching the BBC news and they ran a feature without showing any pix just text. It looks like they are running scared.

Should the press in a secular democracy be free to publish what it sees fit so long as it does'nt break the laws of the land? I think so.

Mike.

Hobbes

liberalbuster wrote:

Freedom of expression and general liberty is something alien to Islam.

Ok so you believe in freedom of expression. So you have no problem with this cartoon then?

http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/5663

Or the other cartoon that was with that. Which incidently is banned from being displayed in papers in many European countries because the cartoon said the holocost never happened.

Wibbs

flogen wrote:

Name me a mainstream religion that doesn't believe itself to be the one true religion?

Of course, but my point still stands. offence is in the eye of the beholder, so we allow it all or we allow nothing. Why should one group have right to take violent offence over any other?

I think you are getting confused between the Islamic world and the vocal minority of extremists within it.

No I'm not. I'm looking at the Islamic world in general ans the attitudes that prevail. It's not just a "vocal minority". The silence of the majority speaks volumes.

But Bin Laden in a fundamentalist and extremists... of course he liked the way the Taliban operated.

Sorry I put it badly. I was pretty much saying the same thing.:)

It comes down to this; Islamists should have respect for the Western ideal of free speech, and for other religions.

Agreed.

However, as part of free speech we must not hinder the rights of others; it is part of their religion that you do not draw the prophet, I don't think respecting that belief is hindering anyone. Satarists can still make use of many images to get their point across; and I'm not criticising the original point of these cartoons, I'm criticising the way they were executed.

Agreed again.

and I hate to sound patronising but perhaps they assume that this is how all publications across the globe work.

I don't think it's patronising at all. There has been more than one commentator reflect on the situation the same way, from all sides of the argument. There's a post here where someone has an online chat woth a Muslim who is hacking into a danish site and his ignorance of the difference between state and press in the west is frightening(can't remember. It's all so confusing )

Hobbes wrote:

Ok so you believe in freedom of expression. So you have no problem with this cartoon then?

http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/5663

Or the other cartoon that was with that. Which incidently is banned from being displayed in papers in many European countries because the cartoon said the holocost never happened.

Actually I for one honestly don't. It shouldn't be banned either. If you don't like it don't by the newspaper/magazine/change channel.

flogen

Wibbs wrote:

No I'm not. I'm looking at the Islamic world in general ans the attitudes that prevail. It's not just a "vocal minority". The silence of the majority speaks volumes.

Don't assume that just because the majority of Muslims haven't been on TV or radio it means they are staying silent on the matter.
The media are covering the most spectacular reactions to the cartoons, those are the most violent ones; from watching shows like Newsnight (you may have seen it last night) it is clear that there are Muslims who are offended but who want to discuss the matter, not fight over it. They are just being shouted down by their violent counterparts and ignored by the media.

pH

Hobbes wrote:

Ok so you believe in freedom of expression. So you have no problem with this cartoon then?

http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/5663

I find that cartoon confusing, but I certainly think that it's fine to publish it. What is it saying? That Hitler (a much reviled figure) would stoop to paedophilia and be happy about it?

Anyway I notice you haven't answered my question, is any cartoon depicting mohammed by definition wrong or is it the particular one with the turban-bomb that is offensive?

Wibbs

flogen wrote:

Don't assume that just because the majority of Muslims haven't been on TV or radio it means they are staying silent on the matter.
The media are covering the most spectacular reactions to the cartoons, those are the most violent ones;

Are there are any "not in Islam's name" anti violence type marches etc? I don't know. I'm genuinely asking.

Hobbes

pH wrote:

Anyway I notice you haven't answered my question, is any cartoon depicting mohammed by definition wrong or is it the particular one with the turban-bomb that is offensive?

Sorry I missed. As far as I am aware no, not all depictions of Mohammad cause offense or public outcry even though some countries in the middle east forbid these. As mentioned South Park as an example.

Look as I said, the problem isn't in the cartoon of itself. It is that (a) it was being portrayed as reflective of the muslim community of a whole and (b) that when complaints were raised about it rather then respecting that people took offense to it they ignored them and printed them in more papers.

You know the author of the story did this because he couldn't get an artist to draw mohammad in a childrens book. Based on the cartoons published it makes you wonder wtf the childrens book was about.

I like your interpretation of the Anne Frank cartoon. You should mention that on BagNews if they post the article. However while you don't see offense with it, the Jewish communty did and have already demanded that the cartoonist be arrested because Holocaust denial type media is illegal in Holland.

lazydaisy

Wibbs wrote:

Are there are any "not in Islam's name" anti violence type marches etc? I don't know. I'm genuinely asking.

Yes, it would have been nice to see when they were peeling 150 dead childrens bodies off the floor in Beslan.

What Wibbs, you mean you're not feeling the love yet?

Hobbes wrote:

I don't think the press should be allowed to post crap that promotes intolerance of others..

Thats fascism.

Hobbes wrote:

Name me a mainstream religion that doesn't believe itself to be the one true religion?
..

Anglicanism. Episcopalian. Methodist.Baptist. Reformed and Conservative Judaism. Buddhism. Zoroastrianism. Taosism. Secularism. Atheism. Agnosticism. And yes, even Catholocism.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Thats fascism.

No its not. Please go look up what the word means.

Anglicanism. Episcopalian. Methodist.Baptist. Reformed and Conservative Judaism. Buddhism. Zoroastrianism. Taosism. Secularism. Atheism. Agnosticism. And yes, even Catholocism.

Erm, I didn't actually say what you just quoted there.

the_dart

"Many Christian schools were taken over by the government after the 1979 revolution. All Iranian students must be instructed in Islam regardless of their religion"

Iran has a fiar bit of Christians. Many Armenian Christians feld to Iran to escape persecution from the Turks. To the best of my knowledge, everything was fine until the "Islamic Revolution" took place.

"I don't think the press should be allowed to post crap that promotes intolerance of others.."

That's censorship.

ShayHT

"The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny."

the_dart wrote:

That's censorship.

the_dart

I notice that my previous message was interestingly ignored by several people and I'd like them to respond to the questions it posed.

"I have question or two.

1/ do the people against this cartoon support those who burnt down 4 embassies in the middle east?
2/ do you people support the protesters in London who held placards saying "butcher those who mock Islam", "massacre those who mock Islam", "Europe, your 9/11 will come" and "Freedom - go to hell"

(I particularly liked the last two [sarcastic])"

Also, I have to say this. Ireland has had net inward migration for over 10 years now. We have a huge amount of immigrants coming into this country. Very few people have a problem with that. Migrant workers have contributed greatly to the Irish economy and to Irish society and immigration is a necessity if we are to sustain economic growth and our International competiveness.

We have immigrants from many many countries. We have a large amount of immigrants coming from Eastern Europe and China for example. When these people come to Ireland they accept and uphold Irish law and respect our laws and culture (needless to say many immigrants have contributed to greatly to our culture too. For example, most Irishpeople love Chinese food.). And the same has to be said about most Muslims too. What I can't comprehend though, and this is more evident in London, why have a minority of extremist muslims come to a country where they are not willing to accept and uphold the laws and culture of that country?

lazydaisy

Sorry Hobbes. My mistake.

Freddie59

the_dart wrote:

We have immigrants from many many countries. We have a large amount of immigrants coming from Eastern Europe and China for example. When these people come to Ireland they accept and uphold Irish law and respect our laws and culture (needless to say many immigrants have contributed to greatly to our culture too. For example, most Irishpeople love Chinese food.). And the same has to be said about most Muslims too. What I can't comprehend though, and this is more evident in London, why have a minority of extremist muslims come to a country where they are not willing to accept and uphold the laws and culture of that country?

Well said Dart. It's amazing alright the way some posts are conveniently ignored simply because they highlight the issue in its entire ugliness.
Regarding London, wasn't it ironic that the guy protesting against 'Western Insults' was a convicted crack cocaine dealer?

The two faces of hypocrisy - as is evident on many other posts in this thread.:mad:

lazydaisy

Yes, indeed. Im still waiting to hear if they consider themeselves moderate and whether they are a reflection of those who are also moderate.

I also am wondering if they also have any support for Denmark, those in the EU offices of the Gaza strip or womankind.

Yes, indeed dart, there are many totalitarian states they can go and live in. My particular favourite protest sign was the one that said "prepare for the real holocaust."

flogen

the_dart wrote:

We have immigrants from many many countries. We have a large amount of immigrants coming from Eastern Europe and China for example. When these people come to Ireland they accept and uphold Irish law and respect our laws and culture (needless to say many immigrants have contributed to greatly to our culture too. For example, most Irishpeople love Chinese food.). And the same has to be said about most Muslims too. What I can't comprehend though, and this is more evident in London, why have a minority of extremist muslims come to a country where they are not willing to accept and uphold the laws and culture of that country?

What makes you think it was just foreign Muslims involved in the protests?

ShayHT

What? I'm sure that all the Chinese in Ireland, and hoping to come to Ireland will be happy to know that Irish people love "Chinese food".

the_dart wrote:

For example, most Irish people love Chinese food

mike65

That cartoon of Adolf with Anne Frank was just lame black comedy I certainly would'nt stop it being published.

As an aside did anyone know it was so easy to get hold of Danish flags? I've been looking high and low...meanwhile the war on Denmark is now in cyberspace

Gangs of pro-Muslim computer hackers have unleashed a withering cyber attack on Danish and Western websites in the past week, escalating their defacement barrage to coincide with dozens of violent street-level demonstrations across the Arab world in protest at the publication of a cartoon depiction of the Prophet Mohammed.

The number of Danish websites alone - those carrying a '.dk' suffix - knocked offline in the past week numbered 578 between 30 January and 6 February, according to Zone-H.org, a cyber-crime observatory that tracks website defacements. Hundreds more websites of European, Israeli and American companies and private citizens have also been defaced during that period, with the vast majority occurring after the re-publication last week of the cartoons in European newspapers.

'The number is nearly doubling every day,' said Roberto Preatoni, the founder of Zone-H.org. A team of Zone-H technicians collect and verify reports of sabotaged Web sites from both victims and hackers. The number of attacked Web servers has been at record levels since the controversy reignited last week, Preatoni said.

Stormfront as usual have thier own very particular spin proving
everyone has an agenda.

copy and paste htp://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=268469

(Dev don't like direct links to Nazis)

Mike.

Suff

Freddie59 wrote:

By the way, is Syria a member of the axis of evil?

sorry...who gave Syria that title? ahh Bush!, so if he said it then its 100% true, final word, holy words????

Freddie59 wrote:

Will your Government be apologising anytime soon for the disgraceful behaviour in Damascus?

it was disgraceful I agree and yes they did appologies.

Freddie59 wrote:

I don't mean to offend, but if you dislike the West so much why are you here?

they are some good elements to the west and they are bad ones, it's not perfect as you might see it!

I'm Syrian/Irish for your info!


regarding your methods of finding out about a religion, country or a region.....what image someone would have established of Ireland then???
Drink proble, drunk people in the streets, extreme Christians, Anti-British, Pro-IRA, little leprecon people, where every person is either called seamus or Paddy!!!!
you might need a book

Suff

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

you mean like the Taliban? They imposed strict Sharia law, hardly a beacon of light for us hedons now was it?

NO they didnt!!!!! they had a big political agenda.

No state/country in this world which use Full Islamic Law.

If there was one it would have been a peaceful state.

Suff

Freddie59 wrote:

Learned a bit more about fanatical Islamics from Sky News today. Apparently the guy dressed in the fake suicide bomb in London last week is.........wait for it..........a convicted drug dealer. Now, most drug dealers are addicts themselves. Where does this sit within Islamic teachings? So it's OK for him to peddle drugs and ruin people's lives, but not OK for a Danish caricaturist to draw a cartoon?

Honestly Man!!!....you need good education!!!:mad:
Please if you are going to keep making silly, ill, poor thought points your posts are going to be ignored.

so take 1 case and apply it t over 1.2 Billion people and a religion!!!

hey I could easily say that you are a Nazi then!!
hitler was one! he was christian so all Christians are Nazi's

the most evil men in modern history were Christians (Benito Mussolini, Adolf Hitler , Joseph Stalin, General Francisco Franco of Spain , GENERAL HUMBERTO BRANCO of Brazil, COLONEL HUGO BANZER
President of Bolivia, GENERAL JORGE RAFAEL VIDELA
President of Argentina and GENERAL AUGUSTO PINOCHET
President of Chile)
so I think your "Logic" is really poor.

Suff

liberalbuster wrote:

Freedom of expression and general liberty is something alien to Islam.

really?!!! how would you know?
to make a point so no one will repeat this again:

liberalbuster wrote:

in the MiddelEast Freedom of Speech is not allowed due to "POLITICAL" reasons and not religious!!!

liberalbuster wrote:

Look at any Islamic country, Iran, Syria for example, places where Christianity and Judaism are mocked constantly.

Get your facts right Mr!!! :mad: :mad:

The population of christains in Syria are more than the popluation of Ireland! do you think we would mock them!
as in regard to Jews.... they mock the Zionist state of Israel and not the Jewish faith! no faith has been ever mocked in the Arab Media. a

political figures yes.

if I hear anti-Semetic again I'll go mad!!! :mad:
Arabs are Semtic!!!!

liberalbuster wrote:

While I would not have recommended the releasing of these cartoons prior to this situation, now I think every European paper should go ahead and publish.

Add more fuel to the Fire!!! nice one! :eek: