Are our generation totally *&"^ing irresponsible as parents?

MorningStar · 27-01-2006 11:16AM

aidan_dunne wrote:

As the saying goes, "You need a licence to own a dog but you don't need one for a child." You might be onto something here, bluewolf.

I can't believe how f**ked up the world has become either. There's so many freaks, weirdos, paedophiles and everything out there now that I'm beginning to think if I ever have kids myself the only option might be to actually barricade them into the house at night until they turn 18 in order to keep them away from all that nastiness. Sounds harsh, I know, but, seriously, how the hell are you supposed to protect your kids from all the weirdos these days short of doing something as drastic as that?

Actually that is part of the problem. The media hype about dangers has made parents a little too sensative to somethings. Using the most best known example, look at Bowling for Colubine, media reports of violence has increased far more than the incidents. Apparently it is more dangerous to drive your kid to school than make them walk 25 minutes to school. People drive their kids to school for "safety".

aidan_dunne wrote:

Honestly, I hear these stories of young children being abducted and raped and killed and then I look at my little niece and I'm bloody terrified that someday something like that might happen to her! :eek: Though, God help the person that would do that because I would hunt them down and kill them slowly and extremely painfully! :mad:

How many of these stories are about Irealnd? How many of these happen in a year? Who is more likely to interfer with your child your brother or a stranger?

aidan_dunne wrote:

The world has become a very scary and dangerous place, my friends. So much so that it might actually make you reconsider ever having children.

No people think it has more than it actually is.
You can take care of your child and bring your child up to be responsible. It starts at home with you taking responsibility. Get a speeding ticket that you can avoid pay it as you are guilty and you want your child to grow up to respect authority (such as yourself) and take responsibility for your actions.
Treat your child like your child not your friend. Controlling what media they have access to is essential. Media has an effect it may not be the cause but if you do not control it you may let it effect your child too much.

Ickle Magoo · 27-01-2006 11:31AM

As a parent, my first intinct is to rush to the defence of all parents......but if I am honest, AB, I completely agree with you....

Barely a day goes by when I don't listen to or witness (open mouthed) some form of parental negligence, stupidity or leniency.....from kids jumping around the back - or front - seat of the car unrestrained to a heavily pregnant 13yr old puffing on a ciggy while chatting to her parents (this is not just speculation on my part, I heard the youngster call the older lady Ma & her mother talked about her age).....it's truly terrifying! :eek:

In this house, our poor children will be subjected to the same home cooking, homework checking and spot checks re sleep-overs that we were & this, coupled with some basic do's & don'ts regarding personal safety and a common sense aproaches to rule breaking will hopefully keep them as safe as possible.....that said....if our kids want to do something that is against our rules there are many ways they can get around them.....as a previous poster said it is all about finding the balance between trust and responsibility and a great deal of hoping your kids listen to your advice.....

Yes, the young girl in this case was being completely stupid and perhaps her parents could/should have made more of an effort to ensure they always knew where their young daughter was and that she knew never, ever to hitch for lifts....but then maybe they did & maybe she didn't listen.....either way it's an awful thing to happen to the poor girl....:(

hepcat · 27-01-2006 11:31AM

It seems that only Brown-eyed-girl is the only poster with any actaul experience of raising a teenager, yet others find it very easy to pour indgnant outrage on the parents of a teenager for "allowing" this to happen. AngryBadger whether you like ot or not the media and society have a huge impact on kids and teenagers nowadays - this simply cannot be underestimated and it is certainly not passing the buck to remark on this. Sure there are bad parents - there always have been and always will be. However most parents love their kids as dearly as could be and want only the best for them. They are coping with the pressure of having to work full time and raise kids, of having to balance the issue of discipline while taking into consideration the changed world that is Ireland today. The parentlng skills advocated nowadays are indeed a lot different to what was acceptable 20 years ago - now it is simply unacceptable to lock a teen in their room, let alone any more severe form of punishment. I really think that parents have a tougher time than ever, and instead of people who have no experience whatsoever of parenting nowadays telling them they should "get a licence and training", a bit of positive support would go a long way.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 11:46AM

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Its too much of a grey area to just blame the parents. Sometimes it is their fault, sometimes its not. Most parents I know would be great parents and want the best for their kids...Its a tough one because I know a girl who's parents were really really strict and she turned out to be an awful awful teenager and woman now. She was a comlete druggie and tbh a complete wreck. So I think its important to find a balance.

This is a fair point, and certainly at 24, and having no kids myself my view on this is coloured. Perhaps when I eventually have sprites of my own I'll become a bit more mellow about this, but I couldn't see myself ever not knowing what my kids are doing. Sure, i'll let them think they're very clever and all that, but there's no way in hell I'd ever not know where they are.

As you say it's a difficult balance to strike, and as has been pointed out, there's a lot of hype, and media coverage which can give parents a false sense of the dangers out there. However, those dangers do exist, and as has also been said, they have always existed.

Maybe we weren't any better or worse at raising our kids "back in the day", but there is definitely a subculture of "it's society's fault" these days. We keep hearing about children being the perpetrators, and the victims of horrific crimes, and al I seem to be hearing is "why isn't the government doing something, why are the media subjecting our kids to this stuff, why won't someone wave a magiuc wand and make this problem go away", and I really think we need to stop playing into this kind of horse****.

Children out of curiousity, innocence, and sometimes just being little bastards, will do the things you do't want them to do. Teenagers will rebel, their hormones are all over the shop, and they're growing into responsibilities they can only really adjust to through experience. But we know all of this, so why in the hell is it that people take such a blazzé attitude with their kids???

Just for the record, I'm not trying to hang parents here, I do know some fantastic parents, but for the most part I seem to see mediocre parenting, and just downright unfit parenting. What I don't see is anyone saying this.

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Another thing I would say though what about the man who raped the girl - are HIS PARENTS to blame too for him turning out to be a rapist?

I'd certainly say questions need to be asked. I don't believe most people are born good/evil, althought there are some peple flying around that are just twisted, and there are some people that are just pure as th driven snow. But I think most people fal somewhere in the middle,a nd what we turn into is ultimately a composite of how we were raised, and what we were exposed to.

So, without knowing this perverts past, questions do need to be asked. However, obviously there's an excess of facts about the circumstances of the victims movements, which tells us that there's definitely a deficit there.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 11:53AM

hepcat wrote:

It seems that only Brown-eyed-girl is the only poster with any actaul experience of raising a teenager...They are coping with the pressure of having to work full time and raise kids, of having to balance the issue of discipline while taking into consideration the changed world that is Ireland today...now it is simply unacceptable to lock a teen in their room, let alone any more severe form of punishment. I really think that parents have a tougher time than ever, and instead of people who have no experience whatsoever of parenting nowadays telling them they should "get a licence and training", a bit of positive support would go a long way.

I'm not attempting to say there isn't huge pressure in raising kids. What i am saying is that there are many peop-le out there who, for whatever reason, are not fit to be aprents. I'm not trying to single out the parents of the girl in this case, althought it may seem that way, it's just a recent example. And to be perfectly frank, you wouldn't allow someone to operate on you without 6 years of college/training, but we allow anyone to have kids, a responsibility which, we all agree, is by leaps and bounds far more complex than any other.

I'm not advocating locking teens in their rooms, but i am advocating know what your kids are doing at the very least. certainly Brown_eyed_girls has far more experience with kids than I, however that doesn't somehow change the fact that we've all seen children, now, and when we were younger ourselves, in deadly circmstances. however, the attitude is that this is somehow acceptable, and I'm saying it isn't.

Bottom line, I'm not disputing the difficulties of raising kids, and I'm not disouting that there are cases where parents do their best, and it all goes assways. however I'm also saying that there are attitudes to raising kids that I find terrifying. People accept that it's ok for kids to be drinkin from ages as low as 12/13, and lower in some cases. It's expected that kids will all go knacker drinking, and starting having sexual intercourse at any age. It's accepted that children are now fully cognisant of sexuality, and sexual behaviour at ages where they don't even have properly developed genitalia. This to me is just wrong.

brown*eyed*girl · 27-01-2006 12:00PM

AngryBadger wrote:

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Its too much of a grey area to just blame the parents. Sometimes it is their fault, sometimes its not. Most parents I know would be great parents and want the best for their kids...Its a tough one because I know a girl who's parents were really really strict and she turned out to be an awful awful teenager and woman now. She was a comlete druggie and tbh a complete wreck. So I think its important to find a balance.

This is a fair point, and certainly at 24, and having no kids myself my view on this is coloured. Perhaps when I eventually have sprites of my own I'll become a bit more mellow about this, but I couldn't see myself ever not knowing what my kids are doing. Sure, i'll let them think they're very clever and all that, but there's no way in hell I'd ever not know where they are.

As you say it's a difficult balance to strike, and as has been pointed out, there's a lot of hype, and media coverage which can give parents a false sense of the dangers out there. However, those dangers do exist, and as has also been said, they have always existed.

Maybe we weren't any better or worse at raising our kids "back in the day", but there is definitely a subculture of "it's society's fault" these days. We keep hearing about children being the perpetrators, and the victims of horrific crimes, and al I seem to be hearing is "why isn't the government doing something, why are the media subjecting our kids to this stuff, why won't someone wave a magiuc wand and make this problem go away", and I really think we need to stop playing into this kind of horse****.

Children out of curiousity, innocence, and sometimes just being little bastards, will do the things you do't want them to do. Teenagers will rebel, their hormones are all over the shop, and they're growing into responsibilities they can only really adjust to through experience. But we know all of this, so why in the hell is it that people take such a blazzé attitude with their kids???

Just for the record, I'm not trying to hang parents here, I do know some fantastic parents, but for the most part I seem to see mediocre parenting, and just downright unfit parenting. What I don't see is anyone saying this.

I'd certainly say questions need to be asked. I don't believe most people are born good/evil, althought there are some peple flying around that are just twisted, and there are some people that are just pure as th driven snow. But I think most people fal somewhere in the middle,a nd what we turn into is ultimately a composite of how we were raised, and what we were exposed to.

So, without knowing this perverts past, questions do need to be asked. However, obviously there's an excess of facts about the circumstances of the victims movements, which tells us that there's definitely a deficit there.

I still think no matter how well you are "reared" you can still turn out "good" or "bad". I believe ultimately you are born with a certain personality, and secondly you're childhood and rearing will make you what you are plus the society you were brought up in, the teachers you had (I had an evil bully of a teacher who really knocked my confidence for years) and then as they say the company you keep. This world for definate is gone a bit crazy. In my local Centra there is all the innocent Barney, Thomas the Tank Engine magazines on the end shelf and just under those there is the Sunday Sport (think that's what its called) with some girl bent over and you can almost see up her S&*! hole (sorry for the vulgarity) but its true. Then you need only look up a little to the top shelf and you see two almost naked girls hugging each other on the front of FHM or whatever. How do you stop kids seeing this stuff. My daughter used to ask who are these magazines for when she was younger. The song by Aslan springs to mind "how can I protect you in this crazy world" when I think of situations like that. How can I protect her and my answer is to try and get a healthy balance and get her to earn my trust and respect. If she misbehaves there is a punishment like grounding, no mobile, no pocket money and to STICK WITH IT and not give you when she begs me to let her out. Well I've rambled now but as they say you shouldn't judge someone too much unless you've walked in their shoes and no you'll never understand until you are a parent to a teenager yourself but its nice to see all the opinions here.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 12:12PM

[QUOTE=brown*eyed*girlI still think no matter how well you are "reared" you can still turn out "good" or "bad". I believe ultimately you are born with a certain personality, and secondly you're childhood and rearing will make you what you are plus the society you were brought up in, the teachers you had (I had an evil bully of a teacher who really knocked my confidence for years) and then as they say the company you keep. This world for definate is gone a bit crazy.[/QUOTE]

You're correct here. the world is a crazy place. And all the things you've cited, friendships, teachers, and nature, are factors in how peple turn out.

My problem is that i don't hear enough peple saying this, or even thinking about it. Sure, there are cases where the best raised kids turn into animals, but there are more cases where kids are victimise, or are victimised, and the roots can be traced back to horrifically bad parenting.

I guess I just feel that it is a difficult job, and there's a lot of things parents can't control, but when people aren't aware of what their kids are doing, when they don't know their kids well enough to spot problems, for whatever reason, then what kind of a life your child has is totally up to chance. and that is just not acceptable to me.

hepcat · 27-01-2006 12:12PM

AngryBadger wrote:

I'm not attempting to say there isn't huge pressure in raising kids. What i am saying is that there are many peop-le out there who, for whatever reason, are not fit to be aprents. I'm not trying to single out the parents of the girl in this case, althought it may seem that way, it's just a recent example. And to be perfectly frank, you wouldn't allow someone to operate on you without 6 years of college/training, but we allow anyone to have kids, a responsibility which, we all agree, is by leaps and bounds far more complex than any other.

I'm not advocating locking teens in their rooms, but i am advocating know what your kids are doing at the very least. certainly Brown_eyed_girls has far more experience with kids than I, however that doesn't somehow change the fact that we've all seen children, now, and when we were younger ourselves, in deadly circmstances. however, the attitude is that this is somehow acceptable, and I'm saying it isn't.

Bottom line, I'm not disputing the difficulties of raising kids, and I'm not disouting that there are cases where parents do their best, and it all goes assways. however I'm also saying that there are attitudes to raising kids that I find terrifying. People accept that it's ok for kids to be drinkin from ages as low as 12/13, and lower in some cases. It's expected that kids will all go knacker drinking, and starting having sexual intercourse at any age. It's accepted that children are now fully cognisant of sexuality, and sexual behaviour at ages where they don't even have properly developed genitalia. This to me is just wrong.

OK the training to be parents thing - it is simply the latest fad to say "they should get a licence / do training". Thats all it is, as if you think about it for a minute it is totally unworkable. You'd probably get the good parents abiding by the rules, getting licensed and doing all sorts of training while your problem parents would not. However I agree that it is a good idea to try and educate people - especially younger people or people from disadvantaged backgrounds who for whatever reasons seem to jump into parenthood very hastily.

I don't think most parents think it acceptable to see kids in dangerous circumstances, to see 13 year olds drinking, to see kids knacker drinking or having sex. Children are also now aware of sexuality because they are taught about it in national school - it s different debate as to whether that is right or wrong. Again however, media and society have far more influence on 13 years olds who dress sexily, go drinking and have sex. Most parents would abhor the idea! FFS it is nealry impossible to buy girls clothes in penneys or dunnes that do not have skinny straps and are low cut, belly tops, slinky and glittery clothes etc. You have to pay extra for normal kids clothes a lot of the time! This is apart from what kids see on telly, in magazines, in all types of advertising, in the music world etc etc etc.

I am not trying to let bad parents off the hook - far from it, they make my blood boil. But I must also say that, in todays world, parents have one hell of a tough time of it and should receive help and encouragement rahter than abuse.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 12:23PM

hepcat wrote:

OK the training to be parents thing - it is simply the latest fad to say "they should get a licence / do training". Thats all it is, as if you think about it for a minute it is totally unworkable....people from disadvantaged backgrounds who for whatever reasons seem to jump into parenthood very hastily.

I don't think most parents think it acceptable to see kids in dangerous circumstances, to see 13 year olds drinking, to see kids knacker drinking or having sex. Children are also now aware of sexuality because they are taught about it in national school - it s different debate as to whether that is right or wrong. Again however, media and society have far more influence on 13 years olds who dress sexily, go drinking and have sex

I have to be a hard ass here and completely disagree. yes, sex is taught in primary schools, and that's great, provided kids can then talk to their parents about it as well. but the references I've made to childrens sexual awareness extend far beyond knowing the details of conception. I hear children talking about "The white dragon", "Bucking Bronco", "Tossing the salad", and i'm horrified. I know about all these things, but i'm an adult of 24, I should not be hearing about these things from children of 11. And I hope their teachers aren't the ones telling them about these things.

As to the knacker drinking, the sexy clothing and so on. Who pays for all this? I's just not true to say that you can't find clothes that are anything other than totaly revealing for young girls. Over Christmas during the whole "relations" thing, I saw my cousins from different families. These are young girls in the 12-15 bracket, and for some reason one family had them dressed like hookers, and one family had them dressed in cothes that were nice looking, very attractive on them, which didn't stick a target on them for the attention of every pervert within 100 miles.

The media thing. look I'm not disputing that it influences people, that would be completely stupid. But i fail to see how we can expect the media to be a watchdog for social values. It's a capital institution. Sure they produce some great stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that does re-inforce what is appropriate, but there is also going to be a lot of garbage that's just geared toward making money, with little to no regard for the fallout.

How can we reasonably expect that kind of institution to foster our children.

And further to this, i'm not taking about the barneys, or the big blue bears of the world. I'm talking about children watching shows like South park, Niptuck, Desperate housewives, and any amount of the detritus that is out there, which children should not be exposed to.

27-01-2006 12:41PM

It has more to do with the personality of the kid. My parents were always really strict with me, always checked where I was going, and I wasn't allowed to go out to pubs, clubs etc at 16 like most of my friends. I wasn't even allowed to get my ears pierced until I was 14! I accepted all the rules though, because I was simply scared of any punishment, TV, internet being taken away etc, whatever. They hit me as well, which I didn't agree with but it kept me in line. It didn't seem like an option to misbehave.

My brother is totally the opposite, and my parents don't know what hit them because I was so well behaved. He does whatever he feels like and acts like the world owes him a favour. He goes out of the house whenever he wants without bothering to tell anyone and comes in at 5am and wakes up the whole house. He started college in England, dropped out after a week and my parents dropped everything to get him home, drove there to get him. Now he's working 2 days a week and the rest of the week does nothing, he barely even helps in the house. It really annoys me that he just gets away with everything. It's impossible to punish him because nothing works. People must blame my parents but me and my sister turned out grand - she's the perfect child, nice, smart, responsible, works part time, just got an offer from Cambridge. No-one would believe my brother and sister were related. I think it's mainly down to the child.

hepcat · 27-01-2006 12:41PM

AngryBadger wrote:

I have to be a hard ass here and completely disagree. yes, sex is taught in primary schools, and that's great, provided kids can then talk to their parents about it as well. but the references I've made to childrens sexual awareness extend far beyond knowing the details of conception. I hear children talking about "The white dragon", "Bucking Bronco", "Tossing the salad", and i'm horrified. I know about all these things, but i'm an adult of 24, I should not be hearing about these things from children of 11. And I hope their teachers aren't the ones telling them about these things.

As to the knacker drinking, the sexy clothing and so on. Who pays for all this? I's just not true to say that you can't find clothes that are anything other than totaly revealing for young girls. Over Christmas during the whole "relations" thing, I saw my cousins from different families. These are young girls in the 12-15 bracket, and for some reason one family had them dressed like hookers, and one family had them dressed in cothes that were nice looking, very attractive on them, which didn't stick a target on them for the attention of every pervert within 100 miles.

The media thing. look I'm not disputing that it influences people, that would be completely stupid. But i fail to see how we can expect the media to be a watchdog for social values. It's a capital institution. Sure they produce some great stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that does re-inforce what is appropriate, but there is also going to be a lot of garbage that's just geared toward making money, with little to no regard for the fallout.

How can we reasonably expect that kind of institution to foster our children.

And further to this, i'm not taking about the barneys, or the big blue bears of the world. I'm talking about children watching shows like South park, Niptuck, Desperate housewives, and any amount of the detritus that is out there, which children should not be exposed to.

OK I dont even know what "white dragon" etc refers to! And have certainly never heard an 11 year old talk like that.

Again you seem to think that I am blaming the media for kids behaviour. That is not the case - BUT the media does to a large extent reflect the society we live in that that society holds very different values nowadays. Media and popular culture reflect what we are doing and what our values are, our kids see that and buy into it - is that parents fault? The thing about tacky clothes is just an example of how all-pervading the sexualisation of kids is. As I said you often have to shop elsewhere and pay more to get something decent.

Yes I agree letting kids watch adult programmes is wrong - thats not really the issue though. What I am trying to say is that in a world where it is nigh on impossible to shelter kids from the constant bombardment of images ideas and values as portrayed by the many different media, perhaps we shoudl be looking at society as a whole rahter than lumping all the blame on "bad irresponsible parents" who a lot of the time are having a very tough time of it trying to raise teenagers.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 12:54PM

hepcat wrote:

the media does to a large extent reflect the society we live in

Yes, it reflects it, but it shouldn't be allowed to dictate it.

hepcat wrote:

Media and popular culture reflect what we are doing and what our values are, our kids see that and buy into it - is that parents fault?

It's not a parents fault that their child will be swayed by the media, but it is if they buy all the crap that child demands with little or no regard for what tey're actualy giving them, and what values tey're encouraging through this action.

hepcat wrote:

Yes I agree letting kids watch adult programmes is wrong - thats not really the issue though.

That kind of thing is ABSOLUTELY the issue. Exposing kids to those kinds of values, out of contex, before they're omotionally developed enough to deal with it is disastrous.

hepcat wrote:

perhaps we should be looking at society as a whole rahter than lumping all the blame on "bad irresponsible parents" who a lot of the time are having a very tough time of it trying to raise teenagers.

I'm not attempting to blame parents, and i completely agree with you as regards society. We do need to look at society and what values we hold to be important.

However, as regards children, it's a parents duty to ensure that what their child is exposed to is appropriate and not damaging to that child. that's my whole point.

Troy Embarrassed Swag wrote:

It has more to do with the personality of the kid.....My parents were always really strict with me.....My brother is totally the opposite.....No-one would believe my brother and sister were related. I think it's mainly down to the child.

Wouldn't the fact that you feel yourself and your sister turned out fine indicate that your parents took the right track, and that your brother is the excepton rather than the rule? I'm not advocating pampering kids, or not getting angry with them or any of that pacifist garbage, I'm talking about the attitude overall.

brown*eyed*girl · 27-01-2006 01:00PM

I think we could talk about this subject until we are all blue in the face about WHO is to blame and what we should do? There are no straightforward answers unfortunately. Take my life for example:

Despite having an amazing fantastic childhood. Very well balanced and lots of love and encouragement etc. I still got pregnant at 16. If I’m really honest the main reason was peer pressure and ok I’ll admit it stupidity caused by an overpowering infatuation with a 19 year old. Throw in the fact I was too embarrassed to ask my Mam for the morning after pill or to be more honest too ashamed and thinking sure it won’t happen to me and hey presto I got pregnant. I was never the type to sleep around nor the town bike. But just a wild teenage girl having a great summer etc. The Father of the child did really lead me on letting me think he adored me when he only wanted to get in my knickers – now I see that so plainly but at the time I didn’t. My Mam blamed herself when she found out I was pregnant and was saying things like how come I didn’t see that my baby was having sex. I mean who is to blame in that situation. I took full responsibility for my daughter and the Dad well he fcuked off when I told him. The first time he stood me up actually was the next date after I told him. He said he’d get me the money for an abortion, which is now my beautiful almost 13 year old daughter. Its even harder for me sometimes preaching to her about safe sex when she is here because I and her “Father” didn’t practice it. Luckily though she is very intelligent and realises that what I tell her and what I advise her is for her own good. I tell her she is not a mistake but a surprise and the best surprise I ever got but and the big but its very very very hard being a single teenage Mother and I don’t want her to miss out on what I did. Try finding the right words there. I must’ve though because she understands exactly what I’m trying to say. I don’t think I got enough sex education in school and sex talk was still quite taboo between kids and their parents when I was young. God you'd go scarlet if a steamy scene came on in front of your mother or uncle or whatever. I sometimes get criticised by my own Mother for telling my daughter TOO MUCH about sex, drugs etc. But I try to point out that if I don’t tell her she’ll hear it in the playground or on the street like I did. I remember when I was around 12 and some girl asking me if I ever gave a blowjob. I said yes you know because all the girls were saying yes trying to be cool but I didn’t even know what it meant. You may all be wondering why I’m telling you this but it’s to show three generations of women and how we all have to adjust to the times. Its hard enough yourself but then you have to try and adjust for you’re children’s times. Suppose the first step in stopping the bad parenting is to not have young teenage girls getting pregnant which a lot of them are PLANNING on doing nowadays which is really shocking. So proper education about sex, contraception etc is in order both from schools and from the parents.

I think it is a great idea to have parenting classes too for all parents. There is no manual we get on how to be a good parent. I mean we love our children so much its actually unbelievable but sometimes we need tough love for them to prosper.

I think its too easy for some people to say “blame the parents” or “blame the media” or whatever. Its just so varied from family to family it can’t be generalised. But agree with a previous poster we need support not this thing saying we need a licence to be a parent. Of course their are the horrible bad parents too who don't even deserve to breath our air but they are usually selfish people who either have kids for the sake of it or an accessory.

I think lets hear it for the good parents out there give them the support.

As for the parents who let their kids out in skimpy outfits yes they are wrong. I've said no and believe me it is very hard to say no. I've had tantrums and tears with my daughter wanting to wear miniskirts. The way I deal with that is I say ok I'll wear a similar outfit to the one you want to wear when you're friends call or whatever and she knows then slutty is not good no matter what age you are. At the moment we are at compromise compromise compromise - working most of the time.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 01:04PM

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

I think lets hear it for the good parents out there give them the support.

I'll drink to that

hepcat · 27-01-2006 01:10PM

Angry Badger, the point is that is is simply not possible to avoid the exposure of kids to some form of media/influence that reflects the society we now live in. Yes some parents do not monitor sufficiently what their kids are exposed to - and I agree that is wrong. The easiest thing in the world to say to a kid is "yes", "ok" etc, and parents should never give in to this tempatation for the sake of an easy life. But there is also the point that is is just impossible to live in isolation from what is going on around you, and with the best will in the world kids will be influenced to some extent by this. Believe me there are a lot of stressed out worried parents doing their level best to bring their kids up in a fair and balanced way, without being dickensian about discipline but also trying to shield them from and guide them through a lot of the crap out there. Previous generations had the assistance of church / society / community - todays generation are on their own.

brown*eyed*girl · 27-01-2006 01:14PM

AngryBadger wrote:

I'll drink to that

Cheers - we need to sort the babysitter first though

brown*eyed*girl · 27-01-2006 01:18PM

hepcat wrote:

Angry Badger, the point is that is is simply not possible to avoid the exposure of kids to some form of media/influence that reflects the society we now live in. Yes some parents do not monitor sufficiently what their kids are exposed to - and I agree that is wrong. The easiest thing in the world to say to a kid is "yes", "ok" etc, and parents should never give in to this tempatation for the sake of an easy life. But there is also the point that is is just impossible to live in isolation from what is going on around you, and with the best will in the world kids will be influenced to some extent by this. Believe me there are a lot of stressed out worried parents doing their level best to bring their kids up in a fair and balanced way, without being dickensian about discipline but also trying to shield them from and guide them through a lot of the crap out there. Previous generations had the assistance of church / society / community - todays generation are on their own.

Well I'm glad there arent' too many Nuns in my daughter's school. They were more of a hindrance than a help. Oh and I know that stress all too well. An example was around two years ago my daugther was going to a xmas kids disco. She 11.5ish at the time and wanted to wear a skirt and knee high boots. I wouldn't let her and she was the only girl there not wearing them. I should've felt good but felt terrible. Sometimes you can't win. We don't want our kids to be the odd ones out either and get bullied. Its very stressful indeed to strike the right balance.

27-01-2006 01:21PM

Wouldn't the fact that you feel yourself and your sister turned out fine indicate that your parents took the right track, and that your brother is the excepton rather than the rule? I'm not advocating pampering kids, or not getting angry with them or any of that pacifist garbage, I'm talking about the attitude overall.

Um yes, that's the point I was making. Just because you see a terribly behaved teenager/kid doesn't mean the parents are irresponsible and don't care. Obviously they have some influence but if the kid wants to rebel, they will.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 01:26PM

Troy Embarrassed Swag wrote:

Obviously they have some influence but if the kid wants to rebel, they will.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Cheers - we need to sort the babysitter first though

lol at this notice are you crazy?

hepcat wrote:

Yes some parents do not monitor sufficiently what their kids are exposed to - and I agree that is wrong.

So what are we disagreeing about?

hepcat · 27-01-2006 01:35PM

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Well I'm glad there arent' too many Nuns in my daughter's school. They were more of a hindrance than a help. Oh and I know that stress all too well. An example was around two years ago my daugther was going to a xmas kids disco. She 11.5ish at the time and wanted to wear a skirt and knee high boots. I wouldn't let her and she was the only girl there not wearing them. I should've felt good but felt terrible. Sometimes you can't win. We don't want our kids to be the odd ones out either and get bullied. Its very stressful indeed to strike the right balance.

Oh I agree that there was a lot wrong with good old catholic ireland - but was just pointing out that nowadays there seems to be no moral imperative from
any other source - church/ society or community - telling kids they should not and cannot do such and such. That was a big help for parents I would say.

I totally understnad your dilemma re not wanting your daughter to be the odd one out! But don't feel guilty - ever! You are doing the best thing possible by questioning what she can adn cannot wear - regardless of what everyone else is wearing!

hepcat · 27-01-2006 01:38PM

[

So what are we disagreeing about?

[/QUOTE]

AngryBadger we are disagreeing about whether this generation is "totally *&^ing irresponsible as parents". I don't think so!

lacuna · 27-01-2006 01:44PM

Parents are ulimately there to guide their children but you can't just impose all your values on them. Just because you think something doesn't mean they should be forced to agree with your opinion. Also, the more you push something on adolescents, the more they resent you for trying to influence them so much. In their eyes they are entitled to their own views etc and forcing anything on them is unwelcome.

brown*eyed*girl · 27-01-2006 01:50PM

Hepcat and the dilemmas are almost daily at the moment with all the raging hormones and my protective streak but we can only do our best.

GOod post lacuna.

Also a phrase that struck me reading these posts is "every generation blames the one before".

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 01:51PM

lacuna wrote:

Parents are ulimately there to guide their children but you can't just impose all your values on them. Just because you think something doesn't mean they should be forced to agree with your opinion. Also, the more you push something on adolescents, the more they resent you for trying to influence them so much. In their eyes they are entitled to their own views etc and forcing anything on them is unwelcome.

But does this mean they should be given free rein?

hepcat wrote:

AngryBadger we are disagreeing about whether this generation is "totally *&^ing irresponsible as parents". I don't think so!

Ah, ok, i think we got sidetracked to some degree. fair enough, but i disagree, i think too many irish parents are irresponsible.

pepper · 27-01-2006 01:53PM

Sleepy wrote:

I know my mother always insisted on phoning any friend's parents if we were staying with them that night, up until we were around 16 anyway...

I think parenting standards are dropping in general, but that is just a generalisation, I know some fantastic parents that are around the same age as or younger than myself too. Most of these had great parents themselves though. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, the offspring of bad parents don't stand a chance.

One thing though, aidan_dunne, I don't think there are actually more freaks, weirdos, paedophiles etc in the world today than there were a few generations ago. Back then, they simply seemed to prey on their families or join the church and prey on orphans and alter-boys. Just judging by the amount of people I know that have suffered abuse as a child, I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of posters whose families hadn't been affected by some form of abuse or another... it's a sad state of affairs but evolution just doesn't seem to be ridding us of these wastes of DNA.

my parents were the same- until i was 18(not kiddn) i had to "check in" every hour- sometimes every half an hour if they were in a bad mood- i HATED them for it at the time but now i know they were only looking out for me

brown*eyed*girl · 27-01-2006 01:55PM

AngryBadger wrote:

But does this mean they should be given free rein?

Ah, ok, i think we got sidetracked to some degree. fair enough, but i disagree, i think too many irish parents are irresponsible.

No they shouldn't get free rein but suffocating them with rules and regulations isn't going to benefit them either. Its to try and strike a balance that needs to be aimed for.

I disagree with you that too many are irresponsible. Yes there are some irresponsible ones but my experience i.e. being a Mam myself and talking and dealing with my neighbours, daughter's friends and school mates parents the majority of them are very honest decent caring parents trying their very best. Just a recent example is at my daughter's meetings for their secondary school. The amount of parents asking questions and 100% interested in how the school is run and wanting to be involved was very good. Yes there were a few parents who yawned through the meeting and couln't wait to get out of there but maybe its the area you live in or something. Now I'm not meaning that as an insult but seems we both have very different experience with the parenting skills we've encountered.

AngryBadger · 27-01-2006 02:06PM

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

I disagree with you that too many are irresponsible... maybe its the area you live in or something. Now I'm not meaning that as an insult but seems we both have very different experience with the parenting skills we're encountered.

Absolutely, not a word of a lie there. And I'm not attempting to say that "mine word is gospel, woe and betide unto those who disgaree". But my experience has been very different,and it isn't limited to people in my area, or any other aspect of my demographic. I've seen kids atitudes in schools all over the country, and I've seen children parading around in mini-skirts, smoking, drinking, out in clubs until all hours. These kids parents should have been gelded in my opinion.

I'm not saying this is all kids, or all parents. From what I see, it is a lot of them, and it's not as simple as some kids smoke, or drink, or know about sex, there are so many deviant behavious in the kids I see these days i don't even know where to begin.

I think this is totally wrong. And I think regardless of the pressure involved, or the quality of whatever government/social institutions also exist no-one is asking why some of these parents aren't being held accountable.

27-01-2006 02:32PM

AngryBadger I can't wait until you have a rebellious teenager you can't control. Parents are not perfect, it is really hard to get the balance right between being too strict and being too liberal. I think liberal rarely works, but then my parents were strict and it didn't work. After the age of about 10 or 11, the influence from peers and media is much greater than from the parents. There isn't much they can do about that. In the case of my brother, he is just stubborn and does whatever he feels like, they have tried punishing him but he takes no notice. My mam is ready to throw him out on the street, seeing as he's 18, but would good would that do? People would say she was mean and heartless then, you can't win. If you think it's all the parents problem you're extremely naive.

I know a lot of 15 year old girls from good families with lovely parents who are trolling around clubs every weekend and getting drunk. It's very very hard to stop a determined teenager.

hepcat · 27-01-2006 02:43PM

AngryBadger wrote:

Absolutely, not a word of a lie there. And I'm not attempting to say that "mine word is gospel, woe and betide unto those who disgaree". But my experience has been very different,and it isn't limited to people in my area, or any other aspect of my demographic. I've seen kids atitudes in schools all over the country, and I've seen children parading around in mini-skirts, smoking, drinking, out in clubs until all hours. These kids parents should have been gelded in my opinion.

I'm not saying this is all kids, or all parents. From what I see, it is a lot of them, and it's not as simple as some kids smoke, or drink, or know about sex, there are so many deviant behavious in the kids I see these days i don't even know where to begin.

I think this is totally wrong. And I think regardless of the pressure involved, or the quality of whatever government/social institutions also exist no-one is asking why some of these parents aren't being held accountable.

Trying to hold parents accountable for the actions of their children is a difficult area. Again, where I do not agree that most irish parents are totally irresponsible, I would be interested to see what would happen if the parents of joyriders were made do community service / pay a fine / attend a course (or all 3!) They have tried to tackle this issue in the UK, without much success apparently, ad now they are turning to ASBO's. TBH i do not know if these will succeed either.

The original example however was that of the teenager who was raped, having hitched to a disco and gotten a bus back. It is just not fair to say that this was due to irresponsibility on her parents part, or that they should necessarily be held accountable. And again there are other factors which make teenagers behave they way they do - regardless of their upbringing.

27-01-2006 02:47PM

When I posted about the training classes and license, I was referring to this post(which was made just before mine):

For example a couple in my locale are often in trouble for neglecting their kids. At one point the kids were left wandering around outside a pub on their own, unfed/ unwashed etc. while the parents were passed out on the ground from drink.

However difficult parents have it, this is not acceptable.

On the whole issue of children doing what they will, I agreed that it is a little too easy to blame any one thing, and I don't blame the parents. I only blame parents who are completely irresponsible etc.
A lot of people often seem to say "well children don't come with an instruction manual". Would it not be good if there were classes on this kind of thing? And people who already are parents can speak about their experiences and stuff that did and didn't work for them, etc?
Seriously, I mean this only in the interests of help, not condemnation.

As for the media, tbh the odd time I flick on mtv, a lot of it is just horrible. Kids these days - and for some years - grow up too fast and know about this kind of thing too fast. I just don't think it's right.
And if it does happen, maybe people should talk to their kids about it. However peer pressure is a scary thing and is far too effective =/

Are our generation totally *&"^ing irresponsible as parents?

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