Are our generation totally *&"^ing irresponsible as parents?

AngryBadger

Legitimate thread here.

A 14-year old girl was raped in Waterford city on monday night. The backstory is that she HITCHED to a party in TRAMORE earlier that night with her friend. then returned to the city by a bus arriving at 12:45am.

Now obviously all right-thinking people are enraged and baying for the blood of the twisted piece of dog vomit that raped this girl.

However, I'm also forced to ask, what the hell kinds of parents does she have that they allowed her to hitch to a party, at 14 years of age, in tramore, and then to just get a bus home.

For people not familiar with Waterford, Tramore is a good stretch from the city. We're not talking over the bridge here. And in a broader sense there seems to be a lot more in the way of underage crime, and general loss of parental control with kids. Within 5 minutes of reading the article about this attack, I listened to a news piece about a 16-year old being charged for beating a 19-year old woman to death. A few weeks back i read about a 16 year old girl in court for prostitution, which took place while her mother and baby sister were present, this poor young girl was an addict on top of this.

Am I missing something, or are we really screwing up this generation of children?

xzanti

If a 14 year old wants to go somewhere they generally find ways and means tbh.. When me and my friends were 14/15 we used to just say we were staying at each others houses studying etc and then go out to clubs.. Not condoning it in anyway but... Its not THAT difficult..

My parents did everything they could barr sitting at the end of the bed watching us all night.. IMO they did everything they could.. They were fairly strict but where theres a will theres a way..

ST*

AngryBadger wrote:

However, I'm also forced to ask, what the hell kinds of parents does she have that they allowed her to hitch to a party, at 14 years of age, in tramore, and then to just get a bus home.

I doubt very much she told her parents what she was actually going to do. Alot of teenagers tell their parents that they are staying at a friends, bag on back with their 'pyjamas' in them.

One might beg the question in which case, didnt the parents check it out that her daughter was actually going to stay where she said she would?

xzanti wrote:

My parents did everything they could barr sitting at the end of the bed watching us all night.. IMO they did everything they could.. They were fairly strict but where theres a will theres a way..

I was the exact same Xzanti, I was climbing out windows - the works. I was fine until I hit about 16. then my parents didn't know what hit them.

AngryBadger

Shock_treatment wrote:

I doubt very much she told her parents what she was actually going to do. Alot of teenagers tell their parents that they are staying at a friends, bag on back with their 'pyjamas' in them.

One might beg the question in which case, didnt the parents check it out that her daughter was actually going to stay where she said she would?

I know kids do this, that's not my point.

My point is, if I know it, and you know it, and everyone else knows it, then surely parents know it, and therefore the question becomes why did they not do something about it?

If she snuck out, did they not notice she was gone? If they discovered it why weren't they in the car like a shot to get her home???

Just because teenagers think they can do what they want doesn't somehow make it ok, and to condone that attitude is reckless in the extremes. It's a parents job to safeguard their kids.

For the record, I'm not trying to stigmatise any parties involved in this particlar case, but I see a lot of this, surely we all do, and I think it's something we need to give very serious consideration.

JC 2K3

Parents aren't really irresponsible, the media has ****ed up a generation of kids, innocence ends between 10 and 14 nowadays. Acting grown up, getting dressed up, going to parties/discos and underage drinking every weekend are all "cool" nowadays and easy to do for a teenager. What can you expect of parents? To chain their kids to their beds in their rooms? The only thing I think parents are doing wrong is not realising the impact the TV is having on children and letting them have unlimited viewing time. Spoilt kids are also more likely to indulge in this sort of behavior at a young age.

ST*

AngryBadger wrote:

If she snuck out, did they not notice she was gone? If they discovered it why weren't they in the car like a shot to get her home???

You would have to know the exact circumstances AB. She might have been in her bed when the parents when to sleep.

You cant expect the parents to stay awake all night to see if their daughter is going to sneak out of the house.

They probably checked her friends houses etc when they realised. but where the hell do you look?? even if her teenage friends knew anything at all about it, they would be afraid to tell- and hope nothing happened to her.

Shock_treatment

Shock_treatment wrote:

You would have to know the exact circumstances AB. She might have been in her bed when the parents when to sleep.

You cant expect the parents to stay awake all night to see if their daughter is going to sneak out of the house.

They probably checked her friends houses etc when they realised. but where the hell do you look?? even if her teenage friends knew anything at all about it, they would be afraid to tell- and hope nothing happened to her.

They could put an alarm on the house it's a good general safety measure as well.

Yeah, I think kids are nuts these days but I think it's a little too easy to blame the media or any one thing.

AngryBadger

JC 2K3 wrote:

Parents aren't really irresponsible, the media has ****ed up a generation of kids

I'm not even entertaining this notion, blaming the madia is horse****, and the same as blaming computer games for violence. Do parents not control what their children are exposed to, and do they not determine what values their children share?

Shock_treatment wrote:

You would have to know the exact circumstances AB. She might have been in her bed when the parents when to sleep.

Fair point. I don't know the exact circumstances. But indulge me a moment.

In order to get to tramore in time for a party, she would have to give herself and hour or so travel time, particularly give that she was hitching to get there. And we know she got the bus home, which means she needed two hours for a round trip, and that's under the assumption that she arrived, gave everyone a big wave, and then left immediately to get home, which is unlikely. So let's assume she stayed for an hour. That means she had to leave waterford at 9:45pm at the latest to arrive at a party for one hour, and then go straight home. I'm not even factoring in getting from her house to the road to tramore, or any of a hundred other considerations.

Which would mean her parents probably went to bed at 9pm.....which seems pretty unlikely.

At any rate. I'm not trying to villify her parents. I'm trying to make the point, that in general, in recent times, we really don't seem to be paying atention to our kids.

I spent a lot of time teaching primary school children during my time as a postgrad, these were ranging from about 7/8 to 11/12, and a lot of them were quoting me shows like South park, and various sexual acts that there is no way children that age should be exposed to. And before anyone suggests this is a class-specific phenomenon I encountered this in nearly every school i went to.

I just think people are really passing the buck with their kids, and that's not ok.

Setun

It's the MTV generation...

And on the other hand there's the underprivileged (sp?) backgrounds where most of these situations arise from. For example a couple in my locale are often in trouble for neglecting their kids. At one point the kids were left wandering around outside a pub on their own, unfed/ unwashed etc. while the parents were passed out on the ground from drink.

I don't know the background to the story, but it could have been this kind of neglect or it could have been a highly unfortunate and hellish accident, a mistrust on the parents part.

Clearly, people need a license and special training to become parents. With heavy penalties on any who don't take parenting classes.

No, I'm not joking.

ST*

AngryBadger wrote:

Fair point. I don't know the exact circumstances. But indulge me a moment.In order to get to tramore in time for a party, she would have to give herself and hour or so travel time, particularly give that she was hitching to get there. And we know she got the bus home, which means she needed two hours for a round trip, and that's under the assumption that she arrived, gave everyone a big wave, and then left immediately to get home, which is unlikely. So let's assume she stayed for an hour. That means she had to leave waterford at 9:45pm at the latest to arrive at a party for one hour, and then go straight home. I'm not even factoring in getting from her house to the road to tramore, or any of a hundred other considerations..

So we are going with the theory she might have lied about going to stay in a friends house? At that age, it could easily have been her first time lying that badly to her parents. Not defending the parents, I certainly would have checked the story through.

AngryBadger

Shock_treatment wrote:

So we are going with the theory she might have lied about going to stay in a friends house? At that age, it could easily have been her first time lying that badly to her parents. Not defending the parents, I certainly would have checked the story through.

Yeah, i'm not trying to blame the parents either, just think this kind of thing is unhealthy, and see way too much of it.

Binomate

Yes. I think it's to do with people being more open to things now-a-days.

AngryBadger

Binomate wrote:

Yes. I think it's to do with people being more open to things now-a-days.

But not with their kids???

ST*

AngryBadger wrote:

Yeah, i'm not trying to blame the parents either, just think this kind of thing is unhealthy, and see way too much of it.

I agree with you there. Parents need to take whatever precautions needed to make sure their children are safe. Its a pretty nasty world. Its not just the teenagers either. I know these were UK cases, but Holly & Jessica were only 11 yrs old. then there was Jamie Bolger who was 3 if I'm not mistaken?

aidan_dunne

bluewolf wrote:

Clearly, people need a license and special training to become parents. With heavy penalties on any who don't take parenting classes.

No, I'm not joking.

As the saying goes, "You need a licence to own a dog but you don't need one for a child." You might be onto something here, bluewolf.

I can't believe how f**ked up the world has become either. There's so many freaks, weirdos, paedophiles and everything out there now that I'm beginning to think if I ever have kids myself the only option might be to actually barricade them into the house at night until they turn 18 in order to keep them away from all that nastiness. Sounds harsh, I know, but, seriously, how the hell are you supposed to protect your kids from all the weirdos these days short of doing something as drastic as that?

Honestly, I hear these stories of young children being abducted and raped and killed and then I look at my little niece and I'm bloody terrified that someday something like that might happen to her! :eek: Though, God help the person that would do that because I would hunt them down and kill them slowly and extremely painfully! :mad:

The world has become a very scary and dangerous place, my friends. So much so that it might actually make you reconsider ever having children.

I never planned to have children in the first place. If I want to mind anyone, well there are plenty of people out there already who need help.

As for the license bit, there is so much hassle about adoption and yet anyone at all, unfit or otherwise, is fine to have kids. Whether they beat and kill them or not (guy who chained his daughter to a radiator and killed her, in America, anyone?) Or whether they are otherwise unfit.

Seriously, there should be some kind of regulation. Mandatory parenting classes, whatever.

Kernel

Parents are certainly more liberal today than they would have been, say, in the 50's - certainly. Society and sense of civic duty has also gone the wayside in our quest for material riches, and self gratification.

The government can also hold some of the blame, by allowing the country to turn into an economy in which both parents, nowadays, are often forced into working full time and paying somebody to raise their own children in a creche filled with other abandoned kids.

EDIT: Almost forgot the media and capitalist corporations puching their lifestyle brands on kids and teaching them to live like adults, when they should be enjoying their youth and *shock* innocence, instead of going out drinking Absolut Vodka, dancing with 30 year old men and having sex with them in the taxi on the way back to his place. "Please don't let them be up, please don't let them be up" Bank of Ireland etc...

AngryBadger

Kernel wrote:

The government can also hold some of the blame...Almost forgot the media and capitalist corporations puching their lifestyle brands on kids and teaching them to live like adults, when they should be enjoying their youth

Again I think blaming the media is passing the buck. Certainly different branches of the media pcreating a marketable image with young people in mind, but surely it's down to parents to ultimately dictate how much of this their kids can buy into? Should they not be monitoring what kids are spending their money on, what they're interested in, and all that jazz.

I do agree that more could be done by the governemtn by way of the education system, and the fact that there are residential areas all over the country with no facilities for young people, (on this banning cyclists from the park in Waterford, WTF???), however I do feel the bigger issue here is peoples' lithargic attitude to the whole idea of having, and raising children.

the attitude nowadays seems to be that kids are just the "done thing", like a new lexus, or flashy jeans. Haing kids is something that can be wonderful, and rewarding, but requires 110 % committment. I just don't think you have any business having kids if you're giving it anything less than this.

Sleepy

I know my mother always insisted on phoning any friend's parents if we were staying with them that night, up until we were around 16 anyway...

I think parenting standards are dropping in general, but that is just a generalisation, I know some fantastic parents that are around the same age as or younger than myself too. Most of these had great parents themselves though. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, the offspring of bad parents don't stand a chance.

One thing though, aidan_dunne, I don't think there are actually more freaks, weirdos, paedophiles etc in the world today than there were a few generations ago. Back then, they simply seemed to prey on their families or join the church and prey on orphans and alter-boys. Just judging by the amount of people I know that have suffered abuse as a child, I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of posters whose families hadn't been affected by some form of abuse or another... it's a sad state of affairs but evolution just doesn't seem to be ridding us of these wastes of DNA.

Quackles

I'm not commenting on the case of that poor girl, because as previous posters have said, we don't know the facts. What I do know is that my 15 year old sister's friends appear to have a lot more freedom than I did as a teenager, and frankly, I don't think its a good idea. A parents job is to set boundaries for their chidren. I think that parents seem to be more concerned with being their children's friend than being a disciplinarian.. All I can say is heaven help my son, because I'm coming down on him like a ton of bricks

Crucifix

I consider my parents to have been very good parents. But I still got up to stuff they never knew about (like many posters have been saying). I think one key thing is that my parents never knew, because I didn't get caught, and I didn't get caught because I had a bit of common sense.
I'm pretty sure at 14 I would've known that hitch-hiking to a far-away party was a bad idea.

Stark

There are some great parents out there, and some parents who should have their kids taken off them. I know one seperated-mother who let her son grow to be 14 stone at the age of 12 by feeding him sweets non-stop and who let him stay at home from school whenever he wanted (at one point for several months) so she could be more popular than his father.

The other night in our estate, some teenagers were doing the usual crap of getting drunk, causing trouble etc., nothing particularly new there. Except one of them had a child who could not have been more than 2 years old out drinking them on a cold night. They also brought the child around and got it to urinate on the front of houses. I don't know what would be more ****ed up, whether the child was the offspring or sibling of one of them. Either way, lousy, lousy parents.

JC 2K3

AngryBadger wrote:

I'm not even entertaining this notion, blaming the madia is horse****, and the same as blaming computer games for violence. Do parents not control what their children are exposed to, and do they not determine what values their children share?

In the past parents didn't have to worry about the TV brainwashing their kids, they didn't have to worry about rapists/murderers on the loose and there wasn't such a vast amount of high sugar/high fat foods(promoting hyperactivity) aimed at children around. Modern parents aren't necessarily less responsible, they just have one hell of a tougher job than parents of past generations.

aidan_dunne

Quackles wrote:

What I do know is that my 15 year old sister's friends appear to have a lot more freedom than I did as a teenager, and frankly, I don't think its a good idea. A parents job is to set boundaries for their chidren. I think that parents seem to be more concerned with being their children's friend than being a disciplinarian.. All I can say is heaven help my son, because I'm coming down on him like a ton of bricks

You, good sir (or madam! You can never be sure on Boards! ), speak a lot of sense. I've seen it with my own younger brother. Granted, he's the youngest in the family and always got away with murder as a result anyway but, still, if I did any of the things he's been doing the past couple of years when I was his age and acted like the little tramp he's become, my father would have probably hammered the living shíte out of me and with good reason. You only have to look at the gang he's hanging around with. :rolleyes:

I never had that kind of freedom when I was younger. Boundaries and rules, as you say, we're set for me and I had to stick to them (e.g. you had to be in at a certain time, you had to keep your room clean, etc.) otherwise, quite rightly, you'd be punished, grounded, wouldn't be allowed play your Nintendo/PC, whatever. Okay, I'll admit that at the time you'd be pissed off about it but you accepted it. Nowadays if you try grounding a kid they'd nearly tell you to just "f**k off" and push passed you out the door. Believe me, I've seen it happen many's the time. If I had tried that when I was younger I would have had the crap beat out of me and, believe me, I would have learned my lesson!

People argue these days saying, "oh, you can't hit a child" and all that. Bullshít! I was often slapped when I was a kid if I did something bad and, let me tell you, I ended up obeying my parents and having a lot more respect for them than my brother, who never got slapped. And now him, like most of his peers, have no respect for their parents or authority anymore.

And then people wonder why society's going to pot and we have youngsters acting like gangsters and terrorising the bloody country! :mad: As a parent you have to lay down the law with them, punish them in some way if they disobey you and, most of all, control them, not the other way around. That's what's wrong with the bloody country!

I say, stop all this hippy, bullshít, child psychologist crap about trying to be your child's "best friend" and start acting like their f**king parent, for God's sake!

daiixi

Shock_treatment wrote:

One might beg the question in which case, didnt the parents check it out that her daughter was actually going to stay where she said she would?

hang on a sec, when I was 12/13 my mum would drop me off at a friends place, talk to my friends mother then go home. She would call up a couple of hours later to speak to me and my friends mother to check that everything was A-OK and then my friends mother would head out for the evening leaving my 12/13 yr old friend and I to look after her 8 year old sister. My mum did all she could, it was never her fault that another adult conspired against her to allow us to do whatever we pleased!!!

Unfortunately kids have no respect these days. Once I got to 16 I at least TOLD my parents where I was going. I didn't ask for permission because I was going to go whether they approved or not, but they at least knew where to find me, or to start looking for me if a problem arose!

AngryBadger

JC 2K3 wrote:

Modern parents aren't necessarily less responsible, they just have one hell of a tougher job than parents of past generations.

I'm not going to dispute the fact that there are more sources that influence children, but every generation has this kind of thing, I don't accept that the responsibilty, or our ability to address it has changed. In theory as society evolves so do we, and so we should be able to manage these additional social institutions. However, even if we weren't keeping pace, that doesn't somehow absolve us of our responsibilities.

Ok, there are high-sugar foods out there,that doesn't mean you have to feed them to your kids. TV can only "brainwash" your kids if you let it raise them, kids watching appropriate television, whose parents are around to give them context for what's going on will not be "brainwashed". The bottom line is, yes, raising kids it a tought affair, but if you're not up to it you don't get to make a **** out your kids ad then whine an bitch about it, you just don't have kids.

As many people have said, there are a lot of good parents out there too. I just wanted to see what kind of reactions this thread would get.

daiixi wrote:

My mum did all she could, it was never her fault that another adult conspired against her to allow us to do whatever we pleased!!!

I'm not exactly sure what your' point is. For one thing I'm not sure this qualifies as bad parenting, and it seems the only point you can possibly be making is that parents can't control everything and so they shouldn't be expected to control anything?......help me out here

brown*eyed*girl

AngryBadger wrote:

Legitimate thread here.

A 14-year old girl was raped in Waterford city on monday night. The backstory is that she HITCHED to a party in TRAMORE earlier that night with her friend. then returned to the city by a bus arriving at 12:45am.

Now obviously all right-thinking people are enraged and baying for the blood of the twisted piece of dog vomit that raped this girl.

However, I'm also forced to ask, what the hell kinds of parents does she have that they allowed her to hitch to a party, at 14 years of age, in tramore, and then to just get a bus home.

For people not familiar with Waterford, Tramore is a good stretch from the city. We're not talking over the bridge here. And in a broader sense there seems to be a lot more in the way of underage crime, and general loss of parental control with kids. Within 5 minutes of reading the article about this attack, I listened to a news piece about a 16-year old being charged for beating a 19-year old woman to death. A few weeks back i read about a 16 year old girl in court for prostitution, which took place while her mother and baby sister were present, this poor young girl was an addict on top of this.

Am I missing something, or are we really screwing up this generation of children?

I think the answer to your question is both yes and no tbh. Of course the parents are responsibile for the safety of thier kids and especially teenagers. But like a lot of people here I used to pretend I was at my mates house etc. My poor Mam wouldn't even think to check as I was a "model" daughter and got great results in school, worked part-time, helped around the house, etc. etc. Now I wasn't bold or anything but like a lot of teens we were quite wild and I did hitch out to Tramore myself once or twice when I was a teenager (with my mate). We did the knacker drinking too. We were so clever we'd do the knacker drinking the night that my mate was sleeping in my house and I knew my Mam and stepdad went out. I remember my mate saying they can't smell drink if they are drinking (not that they were drunk) and we'd be sobered up again they got home. Looking back now I SHUDDER to think of the danger we put ourselves in but at the time we thought we were the bees knees. My Mam hadn't a clue to what we did socially half the time because I never gave her cause for concern. I am a parent myself now to an almost 13 year old daughter and she doesn't get away with anything because I know all the tricks that I used to play so I am very very strict and over-protective and always ring and double check etc. God I'm so bad I smell her breath every time she comes in. It really doesn't mean that my daughter is going to turn out better than me or I'm a better Mother than my Mother because I double check. Its too much of a grey area to just blame the parents. Sometimes it is their fault, sometimes its not. Most parents I know would be great parents and want the best for their kids.

It is hard being a parent to a teen in this day and age though. Especially when I know what we were upto. God it makes me have nightmares thinking that my "baby" is becoming a teenager soon. I've already had lots of chats with her about smoking, drugs, drinking etc. I try and advice her the best I can. Its a tough one because I know a girl who's parents were really really strict and she turned out to be an awful awful teenager and woman now. She was a comlete druggie and tbh a complete wreck. So I think its important to find a balance. I and a lot of us parents really do try our best.

Another thing I would say though what about the man who raped the girl - are HIS PARENTS to blame too for him turning out to be a rapist?

Kernel

AngryBadger wrote:

Again I think blaming the media is passing the buck. Certainly different branches of the media pcreating a marketable image with young people in mind, but surely it's down to parents to ultimately dictate how much of this their kids can buy into? Should they not be monitoring what kids are spending their money on, what they're interested in, and all that jazz.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not solely blaming the media, I'm just saying it's a factor. Advertising and media sells us all an image and a lifestyle, and we are all affected by it. Younger teenagers are even more tractable and will buy into the image more easily than an adult who has experience of the real world.

Parents have a difficult job, and many things to compete against - Ibiza Uncovered selling sex and drugs to their kids is just one of the things. Didn't happen 30 years ago.

toffeapple

Sleepy wrote:

I know my mother always insisted on phoning any friend's parents if we were staying with them that night, up until we were around 16 anyway...

I think parenting standards are dropping in general, but that is just a generalisation, I know some fantastic parents that are around the same age as or younger than myself too. Most of these had great parents themselves though. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, the offspring of bad parents don't stand a chance.

One thing though, aidan_dunne, I don't think there are actually more freaks, weirdos, paedophiles etc in the world today than there were a few generations ago. Back then, they simply seemed to prey on their families or join the church and prey on orphans and alter-boys. Just judging by the amount of people I know that have suffered abuse as a child, I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of posters whose families hadn't been affected by some form of abuse or another... it's a sad state of affairs but evolution just doesn't seem to be ridding us of these wastes of DNA.

Have to agree with the point made here...talk to older people about this..these things did happen years ago they just didnt receive as much coverage..granted they probably didnt happen with the same frequency but there were less people and you may think this sounds stupid but access to cars makes these type crimes easier to commit...in the past beasts tended to prey on young women they knew and more often than not it was covered up to safe face for everybody.

brown*eyed*girl

toffeapple wrote:

Have to agree with the point made here...talk to older people about this..these things did happen years ago they just didnt receive as much coverage..granted they probably didnt happen with the same frequency but there were less people and you may think this sounds stupid but access to cars makes these type crimes easier to commit...in the past beasts tended to prey on young women they knew and more often than not it was covered up to safe face for everybody.

Yes an awful lot of abuse was swept under the carpet years ago. Some poor unfortunate children never got their abusers punished.

MorningStar

aidan_dunne wrote:

As the saying goes, "You need a licence to own a dog but you don't need one for a child." You might be onto something here, bluewolf.

I can't believe how f**ked up the world has become either. There's so many freaks, weirdos, paedophiles and everything out there now that I'm beginning to think if I ever have kids myself the only option might be to actually barricade them into the house at night until they turn 18 in order to keep them away from all that nastiness. Sounds harsh, I know, but, seriously, how the hell are you supposed to protect your kids from all the weirdos these days short of doing something as drastic as that?

Actually that is part of the problem. The media hype about dangers has made parents a little too sensative to somethings. Using the most best known example, look at Bowling for Colubine, media reports of violence has increased far more than the incidents. Apparently it is more dangerous to drive your kid to school than make them walk 25 minutes to school. People drive their kids to school for "safety".

aidan_dunne wrote:

Honestly, I hear these stories of young children being abducted and raped and killed and then I look at my little niece and I'm bloody terrified that someday something like that might happen to her! :eek: Though, God help the person that would do that because I would hunt them down and kill them slowly and extremely painfully! :mad:

How many of these stories are about Irealnd? How many of these happen in a year? Who is more likely to interfer with your child your brother or a stranger?

aidan_dunne wrote:

The world has become a very scary and dangerous place, my friends. So much so that it might actually make you reconsider ever having children.

No people think it has more than it actually is.
You can take care of your child and bring your child up to be responsible. It starts at home with you taking responsibility. Get a speeding ticket that you can avoid pay it as you are guilty and you want your child to grow up to respect authority (such as yourself) and take responsibility for your actions.
Treat your child like your child not your friend. Controlling what media they have access to is essential. Media has an effect it may not be the cause but if you do not control it you may let it effect your child too much.

Ickle Magoo

As a parent, my first intinct is to rush to the defence of all parents......but if I am honest, AB, I completely agree with you....

Barely a day goes by when I don't listen to or witness (open mouthed) some form of parental negligence, stupidity or leniency.....from kids jumping around the back - or front - seat of the car unrestrained to a heavily pregnant 13yr old puffing on a ciggy while chatting to her parents (this is not just speculation on my part, I heard the youngster call the older lady Ma & her mother talked about her age).....it's truly terrifying! :eek:

In this house, our poor children will be subjected to the same home cooking, homework checking and spot checks re sleep-overs that we were & this, coupled with some basic do's & don'ts regarding personal safety and a common sense aproaches to rule breaking will hopefully keep them as safe as possible.....that said....if our kids want to do something that is against our rules there are many ways they can get around them.....as a previous poster said it is all about finding the balance between trust and responsibility and a great deal of hoping your kids listen to your advice.....

Yes, the young girl in this case was being completely stupid and perhaps her parents could/should have made more of an effort to ensure they always knew where their young daughter was and that she knew never, ever to hitch for lifts....but then maybe they did & maybe she didn't listen.....either way it's an awful thing to happen to the poor girl....:(

hepcat

It seems that only Brown-eyed-girl is the only poster with any actaul experience of raising a teenager, yet others find it very easy to pour indgnant outrage on the parents of a teenager for "allowing" this to happen. AngryBadger whether you like ot or not the media and society have a huge impact on kids and teenagers nowadays - this simply cannot be underestimated and it is certainly not passing the buck to remark on this. Sure there are bad parents - there always have been and always will be. However most parents love their kids as dearly as could be and want only the best for them. They are coping with the pressure of having to work full time and raise kids, of having to balance the issue of discipline while taking into consideration the changed world that is Ireland today. The parentlng skills advocated nowadays are indeed a lot different to what was acceptable 20 years ago - now it is simply unacceptable to lock a teen in their room, let alone any more severe form of punishment. I really think that parents have a tougher time than ever, and instead of people who have no experience whatsoever of parenting nowadays telling them they should "get a licence and training", a bit of positive support would go a long way.

AngryBadger

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Its too much of a grey area to just blame the parents. Sometimes it is their fault, sometimes its not. Most parents I know would be great parents and want the best for their kids...Its a tough one because I know a girl who's parents were really really strict and she turned out to be an awful awful teenager and woman now. She was a comlete druggie and tbh a complete wreck. So I think its important to find a balance.

This is a fair point, and certainly at 24, and having no kids myself my view on this is coloured. Perhaps when I eventually have sprites of my own I'll become a bit more mellow about this, but I couldn't see myself ever not knowing what my kids are doing. Sure, i'll let them think they're very clever and all that, but there's no way in hell I'd ever not know where they are.

As you say it's a difficult balance to strike, and as has been pointed out, there's a lot of hype, and media coverage which can give parents a false sense of the dangers out there. However, those dangers do exist, and as has also been said, they have always existed.

Maybe we weren't any better or worse at raising our kids "back in the day", but there is definitely a subculture of "it's society's fault" these days. We keep hearing about children being the perpetrators, and the victims of horrific crimes, and al I seem to be hearing is "why isn't the government doing something, why are the media subjecting our kids to this stuff, why won't someone wave a magiuc wand and make this problem go away", and I really think we need to stop playing into this kind of horse****.

Children out of curiousity, innocence, and sometimes just being little bastards, will do the things you do't want them to do. Teenagers will rebel, their hormones are all over the shop, and they're growing into responsibilities they can only really adjust to through experience. But we know all of this, so why in the hell is it that people take such a blazzé attitude with their kids???

Just for the record, I'm not trying to hang parents here, I do know some fantastic parents, but for the most part I seem to see mediocre parenting, and just downright unfit parenting. What I don't see is anyone saying this.

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Another thing I would say though what about the man who raped the girl - are HIS PARENTS to blame too for him turning out to be a rapist?

I'd certainly say questions need to be asked. I don't believe most people are born good/evil, althought there are some peple flying around that are just twisted, and there are some people that are just pure as th driven snow. But I think most people fal somewhere in the middle,a nd what we turn into is ultimately a composite of how we were raised, and what we were exposed to.

So, without knowing this perverts past, questions do need to be asked. However, obviously there's an excess of facts about the circumstances of the victims movements, which tells us that there's definitely a deficit there.

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

It seems that only Brown-eyed-girl is the only poster with any actaul experience of raising a teenager...They are coping with the pressure of having to work full time and raise kids, of having to balance the issue of discipline while taking into consideration the changed world that is Ireland today...now it is simply unacceptable to lock a teen in their room, let alone any more severe form of punishment. I really think that parents have a tougher time than ever, and instead of people who have no experience whatsoever of parenting nowadays telling them they should "get a licence and training", a bit of positive support would go a long way.

I'm not attempting to say there isn't huge pressure in raising kids. What i am saying is that there are many peop-le out there who, for whatever reason, are not fit to be aprents. I'm not trying to single out the parents of the girl in this case, althought it may seem that way, it's just a recent example. And to be perfectly frank, you wouldn't allow someone to operate on you without 6 years of college/training, but we allow anyone to have kids, a responsibility which, we all agree, is by leaps and bounds far more complex than any other.

I'm not advocating locking teens in their rooms, but i am advocating know what your kids are doing at the very least. certainly Brown_eyed_girls has far more experience with kids than I, however that doesn't somehow change the fact that we've all seen children, now, and when we were younger ourselves, in deadly circmstances. however, the attitude is that this is somehow acceptable, and I'm saying it isn't.

Bottom line, I'm not disputing the difficulties of raising kids, and I'm not disouting that there are cases where parents do their best, and it all goes assways. however I'm also saying that there are attitudes to raising kids that I find terrifying. People accept that it's ok for kids to be drinkin from ages as low as 12/13, and lower in some cases. It's expected that kids will all go knacker drinking, and starting having sexual intercourse at any age. It's accepted that children are now fully cognisant of sexuality, and sexual behaviour at ages where they don't even have properly developed genitalia. This to me is just wrong.

brown*eyed*girl

AngryBadger wrote:

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Its too much of a grey area to just blame the parents. Sometimes it is their fault, sometimes its not. Most parents I know would be great parents and want the best for their kids...Its a tough one because I know a girl who's parents were really really strict and she turned out to be an awful awful teenager and woman now. She was a comlete druggie and tbh a complete wreck. So I think its important to find a balance.

This is a fair point, and certainly at 24, and having no kids myself my view on this is coloured. Perhaps when I eventually have sprites of my own I'll become a bit more mellow about this, but I couldn't see myself ever not knowing what my kids are doing. Sure, i'll let them think they're very clever and all that, but there's no way in hell I'd ever not know where they are.

As you say it's a difficult balance to strike, and as has been pointed out, there's a lot of hype, and media coverage which can give parents a false sense of the dangers out there. However, those dangers do exist, and as has also been said, they have always existed.

Maybe we weren't any better or worse at raising our kids "back in the day", but there is definitely a subculture of "it's society's fault" these days. We keep hearing about children being the perpetrators, and the victims of horrific crimes, and al I seem to be hearing is "why isn't the government doing something, why are the media subjecting our kids to this stuff, why won't someone wave a magiuc wand and make this problem go away", and I really think we need to stop playing into this kind of horse****.

Children out of curiousity, innocence, and sometimes just being little bastards, will do the things you do't want them to do. Teenagers will rebel, their hormones are all over the shop, and they're growing into responsibilities they can only really adjust to through experience. But we know all of this, so why in the hell is it that people take such a blazzé attitude with their kids???

Just for the record, I'm not trying to hang parents here, I do know some fantastic parents, but for the most part I seem to see mediocre parenting, and just downright unfit parenting. What I don't see is anyone saying this.



I'd certainly say questions need to be asked. I don't believe most people are born good/evil, althought there are some peple flying around that are just twisted, and there are some people that are just pure as th driven snow. But I think most people fal somewhere in the middle,a nd what we turn into is ultimately a composite of how we were raised, and what we were exposed to.

So, without knowing this perverts past, questions do need to be asked. However, obviously there's an excess of facts about the circumstances of the victims movements, which tells us that there's definitely a deficit there.

I still think no matter how well you are "reared" you can still turn out "good" or "bad". I believe ultimately you are born with a certain personality, and secondly you're childhood and rearing will make you what you are plus the society you were brought up in, the teachers you had (I had an evil bully of a teacher who really knocked my confidence for years) and then as they say the company you keep. This world for definate is gone a bit crazy. In my local Centra there is all the innocent Barney, Thomas the Tank Engine magazines on the end shelf and just under those there is the Sunday Sport (think that's what its called) with some girl bent over and you can almost see up her S&*! hole (sorry for the vulgarity) but its true. Then you need only look up a little to the top shelf and you see two almost naked girls hugging each other on the front of FHM or whatever. How do you stop kids seeing this stuff. My daughter used to ask who are these magazines for when she was younger. The song by Aslan springs to mind "how can I protect you in this crazy world" when I think of situations like that. How can I protect her and my answer is to try and get a healthy balance and get her to earn my trust and respect. If she misbehaves there is a punishment like grounding, no mobile, no pocket money and to STICK WITH IT and not give you when she begs me to let her out. Well I've rambled now but as they say you shouldn't judge someone too much unless you've walked in their shoes and no you'll never understand until you are a parent to a teenager yourself but its nice to see all the opinions here.

AngryBadger

[QUOTE=brown*eyed*girlI still think no matter how well you are "reared" you can still turn out "good" or "bad". I believe ultimately you are born with a certain personality, and secondly you're childhood and rearing will make you what you are plus the society you were brought up in, the teachers you had (I had an evil bully of a teacher who really knocked my confidence for years) and then as they say the company you keep. This world for definate is gone a bit crazy.[/QUOTE]

You're correct here. the world is a crazy place. And all the things you've cited, friendships, teachers, and nature, are factors in how peple turn out.

My problem is that i don't hear enough peple saying this, or even thinking about it. Sure, there are cases where the best raised kids turn into animals, but there are more cases where kids are victimise, or are victimised, and the roots can be traced back to horrifically bad parenting.

I guess I just feel that it is a difficult job, and there's a lot of things parents can't control, but when people aren't aware of what their kids are doing, when they don't know their kids well enough to spot problems, for whatever reason, then what kind of a life your child has is totally up to chance. and that is just not acceptable to me.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

I'm not attempting to say there isn't huge pressure in raising kids. What i am saying is that there are many peop-le out there who, for whatever reason, are not fit to be aprents. I'm not trying to single out the parents of the girl in this case, althought it may seem that way, it's just a recent example. And to be perfectly frank, you wouldn't allow someone to operate on you without 6 years of college/training, but we allow anyone to have kids, a responsibility which, we all agree, is by leaps and bounds far more complex than any other.

I'm not advocating locking teens in their rooms, but i am advocating know what your kids are doing at the very least. certainly Brown_eyed_girls has far more experience with kids than I, however that doesn't somehow change the fact that we've all seen children, now, and when we were younger ourselves, in deadly circmstances. however, the attitude is that this is somehow acceptable, and I'm saying it isn't.

Bottom line, I'm not disputing the difficulties of raising kids, and I'm not disouting that there are cases where parents do their best, and it all goes assways. however I'm also saying that there are attitudes to raising kids that I find terrifying. People accept that it's ok for kids to be drinkin from ages as low as 12/13, and lower in some cases. It's expected that kids will all go knacker drinking, and starting having sexual intercourse at any age. It's accepted that children are now fully cognisant of sexuality, and sexual behaviour at ages where they don't even have properly developed genitalia. This to me is just wrong.

OK the training to be parents thing - it is simply the latest fad to say "they should get a licence / do training". Thats all it is, as if you think about it for a minute it is totally unworkable. You'd probably get the good parents abiding by the rules, getting licensed and doing all sorts of training while your problem parents would not. However I agree that it is a good idea to try and educate people - especially younger people or people from disadvantaged backgrounds who for whatever reasons seem to jump into parenthood very hastily.

I don't think most parents think it acceptable to see kids in dangerous circumstances, to see 13 year olds drinking, to see kids knacker drinking or having sex. Children are also now aware of sexuality because they are taught about it in national school - it s different debate as to whether that is right or wrong. Again however, media and society have far more influence on 13 years olds who dress sexily, go drinking and have sex. Most parents would abhor the idea! FFS it is nealry impossible to buy girls clothes in penneys or dunnes that do not have skinny straps and are low cut, belly tops, slinky and glittery clothes etc. You have to pay extra for normal kids clothes a lot of the time! This is apart from what kids see on telly, in magazines, in all types of advertising, in the music world etc etc etc.

I am not trying to let bad parents off the hook - far from it, they make my blood boil. But I must also say that, in todays world, parents have one hell of a tough time of it and should receive help and encouragement rahter than abuse.

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

OK the training to be parents thing - it is simply the latest fad to say "they should get a licence / do training". Thats all it is, as if you think about it for a minute it is totally unworkable....people from disadvantaged backgrounds who for whatever reasons seem to jump into parenthood very hastily.

I don't think most parents think it acceptable to see kids in dangerous circumstances, to see 13 year olds drinking, to see kids knacker drinking or having sex. Children are also now aware of sexuality because they are taught about it in national school - it s different debate as to whether that is right or wrong. Again however, media and society have far more influence on 13 years olds who dress sexily, go drinking and have sex

I have to be a hard ass here and completely disagree. yes, sex is taught in primary schools, and that's great, provided kids can then talk to their parents about it as well. but the references I've made to childrens sexual awareness extend far beyond knowing the details of conception. I hear children talking about "The white dragon", "Bucking Bronco", "Tossing the salad", and i'm horrified. I know about all these things, but i'm an adult of 24, I should not be hearing about these things from children of 11. And I hope their teachers aren't the ones telling them about these things.

As to the knacker drinking, the sexy clothing and so on. Who pays for all this? I's just not true to say that you can't find clothes that are anything other than totaly revealing for young girls. Over Christmas during the whole "relations" thing, I saw my cousins from different families. These are young girls in the 12-15 bracket, and for some reason one family had them dressed like hookers, and one family had them dressed in cothes that were nice looking, very attractive on them, which didn't stick a target on them for the attention of every pervert within 100 miles.

The media thing. look I'm not disputing that it influences people, that would be completely stupid. But i fail to see how we can expect the media to be a watchdog for social values. It's a capital institution. Sure they produce some great stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that does re-inforce what is appropriate, but there is also going to be a lot of garbage that's just geared toward making money, with little to no regard for the fallout.

How can we reasonably expect that kind of institution to foster our children.

And further to this, i'm not taking about the barneys, or the big blue bears of the world. I'm talking about children watching shows like South park, Niptuck, Desperate housewives, and any amount of the detritus that is out there, which children should not be exposed to.

It has more to do with the personality of the kid. My parents were always really strict with me, always checked where I was going, and I wasn't allowed to go out to pubs, clubs etc at 16 like most of my friends. I wasn't even allowed to get my ears pierced until I was 14! I accepted all the rules though, because I was simply scared of any punishment, TV, internet being taken away etc, whatever. They hit me as well, which I didn't agree with but it kept me in line. It didn't seem like an option to misbehave.

My brother is totally the opposite, and my parents don't know what hit them because I was so well behaved. He does whatever he feels like and acts like the world owes him a favour. He goes out of the house whenever he wants without bothering to tell anyone and comes in at 5am and wakes up the whole house. He started college in England, dropped out after a week and my parents dropped everything to get him home, drove there to get him. Now he's working 2 days a week and the rest of the week does nothing, he barely even helps in the house. It really annoys me that he just gets away with everything. It's impossible to punish him because nothing works. People must blame my parents but me and my sister turned out grand - she's the perfect child, nice, smart, responsible, works part time, just got an offer from Cambridge. No-one would believe my brother and sister were related. I think it's mainly down to the child.

hepcat

AngryBadger wrote:

I have to be a hard ass here and completely disagree. yes, sex is taught in primary schools, and that's great, provided kids can then talk to their parents about it as well. but the references I've made to childrens sexual awareness extend far beyond knowing the details of conception. I hear children talking about "The white dragon", "Bucking Bronco", "Tossing the salad", and i'm horrified. I know about all these things, but i'm an adult of 24, I should not be hearing about these things from children of 11. And I hope their teachers aren't the ones telling them about these things.

As to the knacker drinking, the sexy clothing and so on. Who pays for all this? I's just not true to say that you can't find clothes that are anything other than totaly revealing for young girls. Over Christmas during the whole "relations" thing, I saw my cousins from different families. These are young girls in the 12-15 bracket, and for some reason one family had them dressed like hookers, and one family had them dressed in cothes that were nice looking, very attractive on them, which didn't stick a target on them for the attention of every pervert within 100 miles.

The media thing. look I'm not disputing that it influences people, that would be completely stupid. But i fail to see how we can expect the media to be a watchdog for social values. It's a capital institution. Sure they produce some great stuff, and there's a lot of stuff that does re-inforce what is appropriate, but there is also going to be a lot of garbage that's just geared toward making money, with little to no regard for the fallout.

How can we reasonably expect that kind of institution to foster our children.

And further to this, i'm not taking about the barneys, or the big blue bears of the world. I'm talking about children watching shows like South park, Niptuck, Desperate housewives, and any amount of the detritus that is out there, which children should not be exposed to.

OK I dont even know what "white dragon" etc refers to! And have certainly never heard an 11 year old talk like that.

Again you seem to think that I am blaming the media for kids behaviour. That is not the case - BUT the media does to a large extent reflect the society we live in that that society holds very different values nowadays. Media and popular culture reflect what we are doing and what our values are, our kids see that and buy into it - is that parents fault? The thing about tacky clothes is just an example of how all-pervading the sexualisation of kids is. As I said you often have to shop elsewhere and pay more to get something decent.

Yes I agree letting kids watch adult programmes is wrong - thats not really the issue though. What I am trying to say is that in a world where it is nigh on impossible to shelter kids from the constant bombardment of images ideas and values as portrayed by the many different media, perhaps we shoudl be looking at society as a whole rahter than lumping all the blame on "bad irresponsible parents" who a lot of the time are having a very tough time of it trying to raise teenagers.

AngryBadger

hepcat wrote:

the media does to a large extent reflect the society we live in

Yes, it reflects it, but it shouldn't be allowed to dictate it.

hepcat wrote:

Media and popular culture reflect what we are doing and what our values are, our kids see that and buy into it - is that parents fault?

It's not a parents fault that their child will be swayed by the media, but it is if they buy all the crap that child demands with little or no regard for what tey're actualy giving them, and what values tey're encouraging through this action.

hepcat wrote:

Yes I agree letting kids watch adult programmes is wrong - thats not really the issue though.

That kind of thing is ABSOLUTELY the issue. Exposing kids to those kinds of values, out of contex, before they're omotionally developed enough to deal with it is disastrous.

hepcat wrote:

perhaps we should be looking at society as a whole rahter than lumping all the blame on "bad irresponsible parents" who a lot of the time are having a very tough time of it trying to raise teenagers.

I'm not attempting to blame parents, and i completely agree with you as regards society. We do need to look at society and what values we hold to be important.

However, as regards children, it's a parents duty to ensure that what their child is exposed to is appropriate and not damaging to that child. that's my whole point.

Troy Embarrassed Swag wrote:

It has more to do with the personality of the kid.....My parents were always really strict with me.....My brother is totally the opposite.....No-one would believe my brother and sister were related. I think it's mainly down to the child.

Wouldn't the fact that you feel yourself and your sister turned out fine indicate that your parents took the right track, and that your brother is the excepton rather than the rule? I'm not advocating pampering kids, or not getting angry with them or any of that pacifist garbage, I'm talking about the attitude overall.

brown*eyed*girl

I think we could talk about this subject until we are all blue in the face about WHO is to blame and what we should do? There are no straightforward answers unfortunately. Take my life for example:

Despite having an amazing fantastic childhood. Very well balanced and lots of love and encouragement etc. I still got pregnant at 16. If I’m really honest the main reason was peer pressure and ok I’ll admit it stupidity caused by an overpowering infatuation with a 19 year old. Throw in the fact I was too embarrassed to ask my Mam for the morning after pill or to be more honest too ashamed and thinking sure it won’t happen to me and hey presto I got pregnant. I was never the type to sleep around nor the town bike. But just a wild teenage girl having a great summer etc. The Father of the child did really lead me on letting me think he adored me when he only wanted to get in my knickers – now I see that so plainly but at the time I didn’t. My Mam blamed herself when she found out I was pregnant and was saying things like how come I didn’t see that my baby was having sex. I mean who is to blame in that situation. I took full responsibility for my daughter and the Dad well he fcuked off when I told him. The first time he stood me up actually was the next date after I told him. He said he’d get me the money for an abortion, which is now my beautiful almost 13 year old daughter. Its even harder for me sometimes preaching to her about safe sex when she is here because I and her “Father” didn’t practice it. Luckily though she is very intelligent and realises that what I tell her and what I advise her is for her own good. I tell her she is not a mistake but a surprise and the best surprise I ever got but and the big but its very very very hard being a single teenage Mother and I don’t want her to miss out on what I did. Try finding the right words there. I must’ve though because she understands exactly what I’m trying to say. I don’t think I got enough sex education in school and sex talk was still quite taboo between kids and their parents when I was young. God you'd go scarlet if a steamy scene came on in front of your mother or uncle or whatever. I sometimes get criticised by my own Mother for telling my daughter TOO MUCH about sex, drugs etc. But I try to point out that if I don’t tell her she’ll hear it in the playground or on the street like I did. I remember when I was around 12 and some girl asking me if I ever gave a blowjob. I said yes you know because all the girls were saying yes trying to be cool but I didn’t even know what it meant. You may all be wondering why I’m telling you this but it’s to show three generations of women and how we all have to adjust to the times. Its hard enough yourself but then you have to try and adjust for you’re children’s times. Suppose the first step in stopping the bad parenting is to not have young teenage girls getting pregnant which a lot of them are PLANNING on doing nowadays which is really shocking. So proper education about sex, contraception etc is in order both from schools and from the parents.

I think it is a great idea to have parenting classes too for all parents. There is no manual we get on how to be a good parent. I mean we love our children so much its actually unbelievable but sometimes we need tough love for them to prosper.

I think its too easy for some people to say “blame the parents” or “blame the media” or whatever. Its just so varied from family to family it can’t be generalised. But agree with a previous poster we need support not this thing saying we need a licence to be a parent. Of course their are the horrible bad parents too who don't even deserve to breath our air but they are usually selfish people who either have kids for the sake of it or an accessory.

I think lets hear it for the good parents out there give them the support.

As for the parents who let their kids out in skimpy outfits yes they are wrong. I've said no and believe me it is very hard to say no. I've had tantrums and tears with my daughter wanting to wear miniskirts. The way I deal with that is I say ok I'll wear a similar outfit to the one you want to wear when you're friends call or whatever and she knows then slutty is not good no matter what age you are. At the moment we are at compromise compromise compromise - working most of the time.

AngryBadger

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

I think lets hear it for the good parents out there give them the support.

I'll drink to that

hepcat

Angry Badger, the point is that is is simply not possible to avoid the exposure of kids to some form of media/influence that reflects the society we now live in. Yes some parents do not monitor sufficiently what their kids are exposed to - and I agree that is wrong. The easiest thing in the world to say to a kid is "yes", "ok" etc, and parents should never give in to this tempatation for the sake of an easy life. But there is also the point that is is just impossible to live in isolation from what is going on around you, and with the best will in the world kids will be influenced to some extent by this. Believe me there are a lot of stressed out worried parents doing their level best to bring their kids up in a fair and balanced way, without being dickensian about discipline but also trying to shield them from and guide them through a lot of the crap out there. Previous generations had the assistance of church / society / community - todays generation are on their own.

brown*eyed*girl

AngryBadger wrote:

I'll drink to that

Cheers - we need to sort the babysitter first though

brown*eyed*girl

hepcat wrote:

Angry Badger, the point is that is is simply not possible to avoid the exposure of kids to some form of media/influence that reflects the society we now live in. Yes some parents do not monitor sufficiently what their kids are exposed to - and I agree that is wrong. The easiest thing in the world to say to a kid is "yes", "ok" etc, and parents should never give in to this tempatation for the sake of an easy life. But there is also the point that is is just impossible to live in isolation from what is going on around you, and with the best will in the world kids will be influenced to some extent by this. Believe me there are a lot of stressed out worried parents doing their level best to bring their kids up in a fair and balanced way, without being dickensian about discipline but also trying to shield them from and guide them through a lot of the crap out there. Previous generations had the assistance of church / society / community - todays generation are on their own.

Well I'm glad there arent' too many Nuns in my daughter's school. They were more of a hindrance than a help. Oh and I know that stress all too well. An example was around two years ago my daugther was going to a xmas kids disco. She 11.5ish at the time and wanted to wear a skirt and knee high boots. I wouldn't let her and she was the only girl there not wearing them. I should've felt good but felt terrible. Sometimes you can't win. We don't want our kids to be the odd ones out either and get bullied. Its very stressful indeed to strike the right balance.

Wouldn't the fact that you feel yourself and your sister turned out fine indicate that your parents took the right track, and that your brother is the excepton rather than the rule? I'm not advocating pampering kids, or not getting angry with them or any of that pacifist garbage, I'm talking about the attitude overall.

Um yes, that's the point I was making. Just because you see a terribly behaved teenager/kid doesn't mean the parents are irresponsible and don't care. Obviously they have some influence but if the kid wants to rebel, they will.

AngryBadger

Troy Embarrassed Swag wrote:

Obviously they have some influence but if the kid wants to rebel, they will.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Cheers - we need to sort the babysitter first though

lol at this notice are you crazy?

hepcat wrote:

Yes some parents do not monitor sufficiently what their kids are exposed to - and I agree that is wrong.

So what are we disagreeing about?

hepcat

brown*eyed*girl wrote:

Well I'm glad there arent' too many Nuns in my daughter's school. They were more of a hindrance than a help. Oh and I know that stress all too well. An example was around two years ago my daugther was going to a xmas kids disco. She 11.5ish at the time and wanted to wear a skirt and knee high boots. I wouldn't let her and she was the only girl there not wearing them. I should've felt good but felt terrible. Sometimes you can't win. We don't want our kids to be the odd ones out either and get bullied. Its very stressful indeed to strike the right balance.

Oh I agree that there was a lot wrong with good old catholic ireland - but was just pointing out that nowadays there seems to be no moral imperative from
any other source - church/ society or community - telling kids they should not and cannot do such and such. That was a big help for parents I would say.

I totally understnad your dilemma re not wanting your daughter to be the odd one out! But don't feel guilty - ever! You are doing the best thing possible by questioning what she can adn cannot wear - regardless of what everyone else is wearing!