No Forward Planning - EVER!!!

Pythia · 24-01-2006 12:26PM

There's an election in a year. Vote for someone who might change things.

_Kaiser_ · 24-01-2006 01:36PM

Pythia wrote:

There's an election in a year. Vote for someone who might change things.

Like? Let's face it, FG weren't any better the last time they were let behind the wheel.

"So vote for a smaller party/independent" I hear you say. Nice idea, however the problem is that in order to form a government, they'll most likely have to join up with one of the "big 2", thus resulting in the same shower of largely useless, incompetent, corrupt wasters we have now :mad:

MorningStar · 24-01-2006 01:39PM

Fishie wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that money might be an issue for some people?! Houses in convenient places ain't exactly cheap, unless it's in a scumbag area which makes it undesirable

I have yet to meet a single person who moved out of Dublin to buy a house because they were unable to afford in Dublin. They buy bigger houses outside and go on about the price versus size.

Nightwish wrote:

people have no choice. the demand far outstrips the supply. and a lot of new home buyers are priced out of buying second hand home win the city so living in the outer suburbs or commuter - land is their only choice

I think they have a choice and they choose larger house,in under resoursed areas where they have to commute large distances. They then complain about the lack of services.

THe reson for the housing is demand from the public. THe governement bowed to public pressure and allowede rampant building becasue people were complaining. A third of our economy is generated by the building trade also.

The long tedious rant has the amazing absense of reason. It is just a complaint about the situation and blames lack of foresight. As nobody had any foresight to see what was going to happen to the irish economy why would you think the goverenment would.
What should the goverenemnet have done stopped building. People Were and are still going crazy to buy. If the stop supply the prices will go higher.
There is no area in the entire country that is over populated in comparison to european standards
I suffer more from ignorant people complaining than I do from the government lack of foresight. People choose to live in new estates, the goverenment forced nobody. THat is personal choice if you buy a cut price house expect cut price facilities and don't complain after the fact.

People mentioned in the 80s how people could buy houses in 25 years. I'd like to point out house repossesion in the 80s was high as was unemploymentand intrest rates. Many many people took out 2nd mortgages to survive and people could afford to replace broken things like fridges etc...

You want better roads for people to travel to their work= I want less cars due to the polution and general danger. Fuel is getting more expensive so less cars will be a reality. Government having foresight not providing for road users demands

You want more facilities in the areas= THe goverenment realises that it already has enough stock of schools etc... so it is not building more they want people to use the facilities that are there.

You want better desigened areas= So does the government and they have increased the density of housing design and reduce low density developments.

And to the OP what do you suggest they do susing foresight into the future. Hell why not just let us know what you think is going to happen in the future.

Boggle · 24-01-2006 01:50PM

You want better roads for people to travel to their work= I want less cars due to the polution and general danger.

Take a bus so. Oh sorry, sh1te public transport so more people needing cars... Pity about the crap roads/crap training/crap enforcemene...

You want more facilities in the areas= THe goverenment realises that it already has enough stock of schools etc... so it is not building more they want people to use the facilities that are there.

Why have a plannin authority at all if they do not acount for the needs of what is being built..??

You want better desigened areas= So does the government and they have increased the density of housing design and reduce low density developments.

SO the answer is to force people to cluster together living in each others pockets and then not bother plannin for their needs??

Hope I misunderstood your post...

Nightwish · 24-01-2006 02:45PM

MorningStar wrote:

You want more facilities in the areas= THe goverenment realises that it already has enough stock of schools etc... so it is not building more they want people to use the facilities that are there.

Thats totally untrue. In commuterland it is a near impossible feat to get your kid in the local school, due to it being hopelessly overcrowded. Even in the town where I live, where a lack of foresight saw one side of the town being expanded very quickly and turned into cheap, lego set, uniform housing estates with absolutely no facilities. Now, here it is very difficult to get your child into the local primary school. Granted the school has been extended but it is still not suitable for the size of the area.

When a developer is building a new large estate it must provide one creche for every 75 houses, however the same is not applied to schools.

MorningStar · 24-01-2006 02:51PM

Boggle wrote:

Take a bus so. Oh sorry, sh1te public transport so more people needing cars... Pity about the crap roads/crap training/crap enforcemene...

I'm not complaining and I don't use a car where possible.

Boggle wrote:

Why have a plannin authority at all if they do not acount for the needs of what is being built..??

PLanning involves knowing what you have before you go building more. Use of all avilable resourses. You don't just keep building everything. People demanded houses and they got houses. The demand schools and they are saying they are already there go use them we aren't building more.

Boggle wrote:

SO the answer is to force people to cluster together living in each others pockets and then not bother plannin for their needs??

No you force them to stop getting house or demanding them and this is happeining. 3 storey town houses and various other higher density property has been built and is being built.

Boggle wrote:

Hope I misunderstood your post...

Why do you hope you misunderstood? The OP was an extremely bias view and complete lack of history of events. Combined with a cry for facilities for future panning with a lack of foresight yet complaining about a lack of foresight.
People should not be given what they want becasue they want it. £ bed semis are what people want and they are impracticle to the future of the capital city.
THe OP made a bunch of statements about what he expects and I just countered them with other views that I beleive in.

Archeron · 24-01-2006 02:54PM

MorningStar wrote:

I have yet to meet a single person who moved out of Dublin to buy a house because they were unable to afford in Dublin. They buy bigger houses outside and go on about the price versus size.

:mad: Okay, hands up. I'm number one. I moved out of Dublin because I couldnt afford to buy in the city. Anybody else out there in the same boat?

I think they have a choice and they choose larger house,in under resoursed areas where they have to commute large distances. They then complain about the lack of services.
:mad: crappy pot holed road with 10s of thousands of users every day is a bloody good reason to complain. We pay our tax, transport is the least we can expect. if not for the comfort and reduced travel times, then certainly for the safety. how many people have died on our roads this year??

THe reson for the housing is demand from the public. THe governement bowed to public pressure and allowede rampant building becasue people were complaining. A third of our economy is generated by the building trade also.
:mad: Okay, so where do you propose these people live? Should they stay living with their parents to avoid having to build any more? Should they live in the high rise buildings in the city? Oh wait, this is Dublin, we dont really allow high rise, do we?

The long tedious rant has the amazing absense of reason. It is just a complaint about the situation and blames lack of foresight. As nobody had any foresight to see what was going to happen to the irish economy why would you think the goverenment would.
:mad: Because thats why governments are there. If they are not the ones who should provide what is needed for the people that they represent, then what the hell are politicians for? Seriously, who's responsibilty is this in your opinion?

What should the goverenemnet have done stopped building. People Were and are still going crazy to buy. If the stop supply the prices will go higher.
There is no area in the entire country that is over populated in comparison to european standards
:mad: Thats a point. Is there another country in Europe that has suffered so intensely from a. Corruption in planning. b. Lack of investment in the most basic levels of infrastructure. c. Bad planning. d. an attitude that says "we dont give a damn" and to top it all off, the attitudes of people who say that providing a roof over your families head makes YOU a bad and selfish person. As they say in LA, puuuuhhhlease.

I suffer more from ignorant people complaining than I do from the government lack of foresight. People choose to live in new estates, the goverenment forced nobody. THat is personal choice if you buy a cut price house expect cut price facilities and don't complain after the fact.
:mad: Cut price? What country do you actually live in? I have not ever in my life seen a "cut price" house in this country, never mind in the cities. If people dont choose to live in new estates, where would they live? In the sewers? In trees? In their parents attics? Population expansion = development of urban areas. Or it should anyway....

People mentioned in the 80s how people could buy houses in 25 years. I'd like to point out house repossesion in the 80s was high as was unemploymentand intrest rates. Many many people took out 2nd mortgages to survive and people could afford to replace broken things like fridges etc...
:mad: I'd like to point out that I have to work two jobs to pay my mortgage, and I cant afford to go out much, and I dont live the life of luxury. And I still endure the crappy infrastructural development in this country, just like hundreds of thousands of other people, commuters AND city dwellers alike.

You want better roads for people to travel to their work= I want less cars due to the polution and general danger. Fuel is getting more expensive so less cars will be a reality. Government having foresight not providing for road users demands
:mad: And you intimate that we are the selfish ones?? This is a car centric society, and the reason for that is the goverments complete lack of investment in alternative options. yes, i think public transport is great, but when it isnt there, what are we supposed to do? If you want to reduce the number of cars on the road, INVEST NOW IN PROPER FACILITIES. other than that, stop harping on about the evils of car users.

You want more facilities in the areas= THe goverenment realises that it already has enough stock of schools etc... so it is not building more they want people to use the facilities that are there.
:mad: Again, I ask, where do you live? Has anyone else ever EVER seen a school that was asking for more students, that had extra spaces, that had all the funding it needed? And this is not a new thing either, I spent 3/4 of my school life in an unheated portacabin, and that began in the 70s.

You want better desigened areas= So does the government and they have increased the density of housing design and reduce low density developments.
:rolleyes: Yeay. About time. Its just a shame so much priceless land has already been sucked up by developers to provide shacky orangebox apartments.

And to the OP what do you suggest they do susing foresight into the future. Hell why not just let us know what you think is going to happen in the future.

What should they do? Analyze trends in population shifts and see where people are likely to move. provide the infrastrucure before it becomes a problem. Only green light planning that has sympathy for all aspects of society, families, the economy, the world at large.
What do I think will happen? Things will get worse because unfortunately, Irish people seem to always accept this sh*te and laugh about the irishness of it. While those who do have the nerve to raise it as a problem are instantly shouted down by people who disagree with them and think that almost every aspect of irish life is just peachy, and that car users are to blame for pretty much everything.
You tried to improve your lot and provide for your family? How dare you, you selfish bastard, you deserve to spend 9 hours a day travelling to and from a town with no facilities.
Rant over.

MorningStar · 24-01-2006 03:03PM

Nightwish wrote:

Thats totally untrue. In commuterland it is a near impossible feat to get your kid in the local school, due to it being hopelessly overcrowded. Even in the town where I live, where a lack of foresight saw one side of the town being expanded very quickly and turned into cheap, lego set, uniform housing estates with absolutely facilities. Now, here it is very difficult to get your child into the local primary school. Granted the school has been extended but it is still not suitable for the size of the area.

When a developer is building a new large estate it must provide one creche for every 75 houses, however the same is not applied to schools.

THat is not untrue. St Davids and St Joesph schools in Artane and Mariino respectevily were have too few pupils for the number of teachers. All the schools in older areas are under populated.

What happens to schools that don't have enough students? The government has not placed these people oin areas without facilities. Private development is private development. Why do you would expect the government to build facilities for private housing? A creche is a private business so why should the government provide that?

Is it really a lack of foresight if people move into the houses. THe foresight was to sell houses. If I buiy a house miles from a shop I don't shout the government for lack of foresight I realise it was my decision.

Take responsibility for your own actions is what I say.

connundrum · 24-01-2006 03:38PM

MorningStar wrote:

THat is not untrue. St Davids and St Joesph schools in Artane and Mariino respectevily were have too few pupils for the number of teachers. All the schools in older areas are under populated.

But people cannot afford housing in said older areas, and therefore the numbers for those schools may indeed be decreasing. Where the problem with schooling occurs is in commuter towns and developing suburbs.. housing development upon housing development without a thought for what the kids are gonna do when school time comes around. Like what was said earlier, the average school leaving age in some parts of Kildare are now 19-20 because there's no bleedin room for them in the earlier years.

Would you suggest that kids living in Kildare travel up to Artane & Marino everyday for an education? Cop on.

MorningStar wrote:

If I buiy a house miles from a shop I don't shout the government for lack of foresight I realise it was my decision.

Take responsibility for your own actions is what I say.

God help the people who can't afford housing near existing facilities, tough luck on them you say?! Shoulda thought about that before you bought the only house you could afford?! Government has a duty to the citizens, end of argument. What if these people didn't have ESB or running water? Would you begrudge them that? Cop on x 2.

:v:

gaf1983 · 24-01-2006 04:04PM

MorningStar wrote:

I'm not complaining and I don't use a car where possible.

That's nice to see that you don't use a car when possible, but the fact is that for many people it would be impossible to go about their daily lives without a car. People will use public transport/walk/cycle if it is a viable alternative, but the problem is the public transport in many cases is inadequate or people live too far from work to walk/cycle. See for instance the responses of numerous Dáil deputies interviewed in a survey conducted by the Green Party about the Oireachtas members' own public transport use in the course of their work. Most of them replied that they didn't, stating excuses such as "I'm too busy, I have too many deadlines to meet, meetings to go to" - so the politicians whose job it is to provide these services admit themselves that the public transport is not reliable, so it's a bit disingenuous of them to encourage the public at large (who also have to go to work, have deadlines to meet etc) to use these services when they are inadequate.

Don't get me wrong, I share your concerns about pollution, decreasing oil supplies, traffic and road safety, but before encouraging people to decrease their car use alternatives must be present.

Regarding the identical Lego style privately built housing estates that gets the OP's goat up so much, you would think that the government would have learnt from the government-built local authority states all over the country and realise that not providing facilities will lead to problems in the future - therefore I feel that such facilities should be provided for through some means - either by including the provision of them/contribution to their development as a condition of granting planning permission to the developers, or maybe by introducing a council tax similar to the one in England.

MorningStar · 24-01-2006 04:10PM

Archeron wrote:

Okay, hands up. I'm number one. I moved out of Dublin because I couldnt afford to buy in the city. Anybody else out there in the same boat?

I don't beleive for a second the only choice you had was to move out to suburbs miles from all facilities. Did you buy a house or appartment? Do you have a spare room or two? How many reception rooms? I never said the city just Dublin.

Archeron wrote:

crappy pot holed road with 10s of thousands of users every day is a bloody good reason to complain. We pay our tax, transport is the least we can expect. if not for the comfort and reduced travel times, then certainly for the safety. how many people have died on our roads this year??

I you move out to an area that has pot holed road before you buy complaining later is just a little nieve if not stupid.

Archeron wrote:

Okay, so where do you propose these people live? Should they stay living with their parents to avoid having to build any more? Should they live in the high rise buildings in the city? Oh wait, this is Dublin, we dont really allow high rise, do we?

Houses are not the only option. There are apartments. I was talking about houses which has been our biggest problem with land use. Planning allows high rise people complain. Blame the people and not the planning on that. Houses do not need to be built. Dublin has suburbs well cpabale of taking many more people.

Archeron wrote:

Because thats why governments are there. If they are not the ones who should provide what is needed for the people that they represent, then what the hell are politicians for? Seriously, who's responsibilty is this in your opinion?

So your beleive is the government should be able to predict things because they are the government.:rolleyes: Seriously how riddiculious is that? Accidents happen and so do good things like the fact we managed to get from a deficet to a surplus in less than 20 years. The people who are responsible are the public. The houses were built for demand and bought regardless of the local ammenities. You want to blame the government and not portion any blame on the people who bought these houses. I must have missed the forced housing day;)

Archeron wrote:

Thats a point. Is there another country in Europe that has suffered so intensely from a. Corruption in planning. b. Lack of investment in the most basic levels of infrastructure. c. Bad planning. d. an attitude that says "we dont give a damn" and to top it all off, the attitudes of people who say that providing a roof over your families head makes YOU a bad and selfish person. As they say in LA, puuuuhhhlease.

How is your knowledge of European events? Italy, Spain and Portugal. Explain how the problems there don't compare to here
What corruption has there been in the last 15 years in planning? People like to just say these things without proof because it sounds impressive. I would love how you can measure the attitude that you believe exists. Could you just have an opinion and like ranting about it. Wanting a 4 bed house when you have only one child does meassure up to being selfish are you saying it doesn't? A 2 bed appartment would cater for just as well.

Archeron wrote:

Cut price? What country do you actually live in? I have not ever in my life seen a "cut price" house in this country, never mind in the cities. If people dont choose to live in new estates, where would they live? In the sewers? In trees? In their parents attics? Population expansion = development of urban areas. Or it should anyway....

If my house costs €200k more than yours because it is close to all facilities and then you want the same facilities to me I see that as expecting full service for cut prices. People buy houses further out to get more house not to get a single house. Out of 40 people I know who bought new houses not one was unable to afford something else closer to work or general services. The private developer built and sold what people wanted. Blame them both.

Archeron wrote:

I'd like to point out that I have to work two jobs to pay my mortgage, and I cant afford to go out much, and I dont live the life of luxury. And I still endure the crappy infrastructural development in this country, just like hundreds of thousands of other people, commuters AND city dwellers alike.

Boo hoo. People had no jobs and lost there houses. There family had to leave the country to get jobs. That wasn't just a few people it was the country. People I see strugling are strugling for luxury. Many don't even realise it is luxury. I don't know your personal situation but of people I know they are living luxurious lives and saying they are struggling

Archeron wrote:

And you intimate that we are the selfish ones?? This is a car centric society, and the reason for that is the goverments complete lack of investment in alternative options. yes, i think public transport is great, but when it isnt there, what are we supposed to do? If you want to reduce the number of cars on the road, INVEST NOW IN PROPER FACILITIES. other than that, stop harping on about the evils of car users.

Actually Dublin has not been a carcentric place for very long. It is easily reversable and basically is happeing. Note I am not imposing my desire to have something on others. People driving are imposing on others so I am not the selfish one. I live in the city and people go on about how their quiality of life is better out of the city yet them driving their 4X4 throught the city is an imposition on me and effects my quality of life. There is too much investment in roads as is. Cars are bad for everyone so I won't stop complaining. If you buy a place far out and commute it doesn't matter if the facilities are there in the future running a car will be too expensive.

Again, I ask, where do you live? Has anyone else ever EVER seen a school that was asking for more students, that had extra spaces, that had all the funding it needed? And this is not a new thing either, I spent 3/4 of my school life in an unheated portacabin, and that began in the 70s.[/QUOTE]

I live in D9 and the schools are under populated here! As neighbourhoods get older it is a common problem in all countries. In D5 the St John of Gods girls school is closing due to lack of pupils. A lack of funding through history in ireland is due to lack of money. Once you get money it is not cheap to bring standards up. THe stupid line "now that we have money we should have better" is stupid becasue it is just a show of ignorance on how everything works in this world

.

Archeron wrote:

Yeay. About time. Its just a shame so much priceless land has already been sucked up by developers to provide shacky orangebox apartments.

When and what are you talking about?? Private developers were not given governemnt land to provide appartments with the exception of a purchase proposal by the governemnt .
Adamstown was planned devlopment by the government. Other development are private

Archeron wrote:

What should they do? Analyze trends in population shifts and see where people are likely to move.

The did, more so they got experts to do this. It was surprise what happened.

Archeron wrote:

provide the infrastrucure before it becomes a problem. Only green light planning that has sympathy for all aspects of society, families, the economy, the world at large.

Why should they you bought something bad in a private sale why should they provide for you? Where is the bit where you are taking responsibility for your purchase. Again I will point out Adamstown

Archeron wrote:

What do I think will happen? Things will get worse because unfortunately, Irish people seem to always accept this sh*te and laugh about the irishness of it. While those who do have the nerve to raise it as a problem are instantly shouted down by people who disagree with them and think that almost every aspect of irish life is just peachy, and that car users are to blame for pretty much everything.

WHat will happen is what happened in other countries with such housing. The children grow up and as the parents are in work or commuting the kids will have freedom to do many things. Very few adults in the area will mean lots of free houses where the kids will get pregnant. Crime will be bad even though mostly just vandals but violent attacks will increase. Overall the areas will become black spots. Don't forget that marriage breakdowns are increasing so many such houses may need to be sold. As commuting will increase in price many people will be stuck in their housing estate. How is that for quality of life.

Archeron wrote:

You tried to improve your lot and provide for your family? How dare you, you selfish bastard, you deserve to spend 9 hours a day travelling to and from a town with no facilities.
Rant over.

No people are looking after their families over the overall comunity. To give you examples
4X4 are more dangerous to all other road users yet people drive them for safety and height.
Driving your child to school is actually more dangerous than if they walk yet everyone knows commuting is hell because of such runs.
I already mentioned how the long commutes mean people who liveclose to the city have to deal with the traffic casued by people living far out.

If the housing that was/is being built was of a different type built for the greater good would you be happy? That means people wouldn't have been able to buy 3 bed semis. THe property you currently have would have been smaller. the people didn't want it and now the people who bought these properties are moaning about it?

Boggle · 24-01-2006 04:15PM

or maybe by introducing a council tax similar to the one in England.

Please don't ever, ever consider advocating Council Tax...

LegacyUser · 24-01-2006 04:19PM

I live in D9 also, and there are several reasons that the schools are under-populated, and neighbourhoods grow older. The most obvious being young people cannot afford to buy, and repopulated in the area, and also, the houses that have recently been sold in the Crestfield, Larkhill, Collins Ave Areas have been bought as a second property by 'older' investors, and rented to Third level students, and the likes.

I do not think that it is unfair of us to expect our government to plan ahead.

It would seem obvious that by granting permission for several thousand houses to be built in a commuter belt area at a cheaper rate then those of a similar size in Dublin, these house will inevitably be occupied by young buyers, 1st time buyers and those of us who simply cannot afford the Dublin going rates.

Once occupied, these people will require facilities such as schools. A school is not a luxury, and education is not unnecessary want, it is a need, and as such, it needs to be addressed by those who granted the planning permission in the first place!

If it is not the job of the government to give a little foresight into issues such as this, then whose job is it??

fly_agaric · 24-01-2006 05:49PM

Another thing which hasn't helped us is the Nimbyism which sometimes obstructs developers who want to build high density appt. blocks in the established suburbs.

The market pressure for this (land prices, population growth) has become so overwhelming now though that even the really wealthy established Dublin suburbs seem to be struggling to prevent these things from being built now.

The Irish want it all anyway. Low taxes and the dream detached house with a garden and a nice car parked in front of it ala the US exurbs combined with all the good shít you'd expect of a well oiled nanny-state. You get people calling for the government to provide public-funded childcare like in Sweden or whatever FFS!

The obsession with having a house in the suburbs (we won't rent and don't even like the idea of a system geared more in favour of tenants as it would erode our rights as property owners, we don't want to live in a poxy flat) is what lies at the root of all the problems IMO and is taking us down the same path the US and to a lesser extent the UK have gone before us. Except our politicians are probably more inept than theirs.:)

People can't really be that bothered by governmental incompetence anyway if the latest opinion polls are to be believed. We are happy enough with things as they are. You can laugh (or cry) and joke at the muppet politicians and their lack of foresight but they are our muppets!

constitutionus · 24-01-2006 06:19PM

well i'd just like to say its nice to see NOBODY learned anything from what happened in areas like tallaght.
60 thousand people, 5 gardai to police them and nowt schools OR shops to facilitate them AND YOU WONDER WHY IT TURNED INTO A CESS PIT :mad:

if you guys dont get your councillors to do what the guys behind ADAMSTOWN did IE get a gaurentee of schools and amenities BEFORE the houses are built . your heading in the same direction tallaght did pre the 80s
and i might point out it took LOCAL representation to get the area sorted out. dont think for a minute bertie and the boys will give a **** about your concerns that wont even come into effect till theyre well out of power.

and if anyone thinks im exagerating look at what tallaght USED to be ,a small village that extended roughly the length of the main street , NOW IT BIGGER THAN LIMERICK with a populaltion brushing 100 thousand people. ask youself how would celbridge handle 100 thousand people or dun shaughlin

thats the future lads:)

Doper Than U · 24-01-2006 06:43PM

constitutionus wrote:

well i'd just like to say its nice to see NOBODY learned anything from what happened in areas like tallaght.
60 thousand people, 5 gardai to police them and nowt schools OR shops to facilitate them AND YOU WONDER WHY IT TURNED INTO A CESS PIT :mad:

if you guys dont get your councillors to do what the guys behind ADAMSTOWN did IE get a gaurentee of schools and amenities BEFORE the houses are built . your heading in the same direction tallaght did pre the 80s
and i might point out it took LOCAL representation to get the area sorted out. dont think for a minute bertie and the boys will give a **** about your concerns that wont even come into effect till theyre well out of power.

and if anyone thinks im exagerating look at what tallaght USED to be ,a small village that extended roughly the length of the main street , NOW IT BIGGER THAN LIMERICK with a populaltion brushing 100 thousand people. ask youself how would celbridge handle 100 thousand people or dun shaughlin

thats the future lads:)

Sweet Jesus he's right. We're doomed.

PullMyFinger! · 24-01-2006 07:04PM

Doper Than U wrote:

Sweet Jesus he's right. We're doomed.

Thing is, well he is right :mad:

IvaBigWun · 25-01-2006 10:26AM

Great thread Silly Sausage (I never thought Id type that sentance

).

The problem is, in this country, is that we moan about everything yet do phuck all about it. Ever see an American complain about his meal or bad service? He refuses to pay and demands to see the manager. The Irish guy? He ususally doesnt speak up and bitches about it for days after.

Re: the government: as someone who's thinking about buying thier first house this year I cant really see what incentive they're giving me to stay in the country. House prices, roads, infrastructure, corrupt politicians - its all been said in this thread already, but whats the alternative? Fine bleedin' Gael?! Not a chance.

Ladies and gentlemen, this country is fooked.

*Logs onto trailfinders.ie*

Boggle · 25-01-2006 11:29AM

Morningstar: Having read your ridiculous arguments I'm going to have to check myself cos I'll get banned for insulting you but here goes...

I you move out to an area that has pot holed road before you buy complaining later is just a little nieve if not stupid.

So your saying that as roads get busier they should not be redeveloped to deal with the increasing traffic? Stop the presses!! No more road building please - they were bad before but you knew it so tough!!! <censored statement>

Houses are not the only option. There are apartments. I was talking about houses which has been our biggest problem with land use. Planning allows high rise people complain. Blame the people and not the planning on that. Houses do not need to be built. Dublin has suburbs well cpabale of taking many more people.

When the time comes I've no intention of raising a family in some crappy appt. Anyone I know who has a house and is single and on his/her own has at least a room rented so they are well used. Should we make all pensioners sell their homes to make way for families?? Don't think so! Then we DO need more houses...

The houses were built for demand and bought regardless of the local ammenities. You want to blame the government and not portion any blame on the people who bought these houses. I must have missed the forced housing day

I need a house - the only house I can afford is in an area with poor amenities - Give me an option... PLEASE!!!

What corruption has there been in the last 15 years in planning?

Pull your head out of the sand mate. Ask your father and I'm sure he'll tell you stories... Or do a search on google. My friend works in the council and he will freely admit that for him planning will be much easier than for most. (Tell me this isn't corruption!)

If my house costs €200k more than yours because it is close to all facilities and then you want the same facilities to me I see that as expecting full service for cut prices.

$£%$££!!! If I'm allowed to build a house in the middle of the country then I expect to live in the country. If I buy a house in an approved large scale housing development then I expect provision for basic amenities. Am I wrong??

A lack of funding through history in ireland is due to lack of money.

Lack of funding being due to lack of money... one of those class statements I'm gonna have to remember!! Typical of your arguments so far...

THe stupid line "now that we have money we should have better" is stupid becasue it is just a show of ignorance on how everything works in this world

Well according to the above logic - more money should mean more funding - No?? I would expect this money to improve things making it a non-stupid statement. The problem is that major changes and improvements take time.

You've more rubbish on your post but I'd doubt you'll even read the arguments above so its pointless going on...

gaf1983 · 25-01-2006 12:38PM

Boggle wrote:

Please don't ever, ever consider advocating Council Tax...

You bemoan the lack of services like good public transport and lack of enforcement on the roads. One of the reasons for these deficiencies is a lack of hard cash. Yet when an idea is suggested to raise funding for improving these services you rubbish it. Why?

LegacyUser · 25-01-2006 12:43PM

IvaBigWun wrote:

Great thread Silly Sausage (I never thought Id type that sentance ).

Hey!!!!! :eek:

Boggle · 25-01-2006 12:51PM

You bemoan the lack of services like good public transport and lack of enforcement on the roads. One of the reasons for these deficiencies is a lack of hard cash. Yet when an idea is suggested to raise funding for improving these services you rubbish it. Why?

Because, since moving to London, I've formed the opinion that council tax is the greatest blight to living ever invented.

It starts off as a technically reasonable theory - if alot of people live in an area then a portion of your wage goes toward that area... trouble is that council tax is based on your home size (/value kinda) and not your wage. Your home value is not always indicative of your wage (can be seen by the fact that some people have 20yr mortgage and others need 35yr mortgage) and so you end up with alot of people finding themselves in a position where they can no longer afford to occupy that house. (Such as if one parent no longer wishes to work - to raise the kids maybe!)

Is that a better explanation??

gaf1983 · 25-01-2006 01:12PM

Boggle wrote:

Because, since moving to London, I've formed the opinion that council tax is the greatest blight to living ever invented.

It starts off as a technically reasonable theory - if alot of people live in an area then a portion of your wage goes toward that area... trouble is that council tax is based on your home size (/value kinda) and not your wage. Your home value is not always indicative of your wage (can be seen by the fact that some people have 20yr mortgage and others need 35yr mortgage) and so you end up with alot of people finding themselves in a position where they can no longer afford to occupy that house. (Such as if one parent no longer wishes to work - to raise the kids maybe!)

Is that a better explanation??

Yeah, that's a much better explanation. I suppose it might be fairer if they introduced it in Ireland but based it on what the residents are actually earning.

Boggle · 25-01-2006 01:20PM

I suppose it might be fairer if they introduced it in Ireland but based it on what the residents are actually earning.

Potentially... but what if you had 2 homes (1 a holiday home say) - then would you pay tax in both areas or one? ...Regional taxation may work to a degree but then you end up with rural areas having zero cash to spend on amenities and such because there is nothing in the budget.

Then after a while you'd notice your income tax creep back up to similar leevls to where they are now and STILL have to pay council tax... Seems to be the way our govt works!!

Civilian_Target · 25-01-2006 01:23PM

Nightwish wrote:

I lived in Whitehall and got the 3 every morning at 8:10 am, when it turned up...the next one after that is 40 mins later. Dublin Bus cannot keep up with the pace of building in the country. Its not their fault. They weren't even included in the Transport 21 package

Eurgh - the 3. I have bad memories of that one - it goes everywhere! That said, at least there's plenty of busses in Whitehall...

MorningStar · 25-01-2006 02:41PM

connundrum wrote:

Would you suggest that kids living in Kildare travel up to Artane & Marino everyday for an education? Cop on.

I would suggest when buying a house privately you buy in an area with suitable ammenities to your needs and future needs. I beleive people are more worried about their house size than actual cost of property. I note this from figureas about underpopoluation in Dublin areas.

connundrum wrote:

God help the people who can't afford housing near existing facilities, tough luck on them you say?! Shoulda thought about that before you bought the only house you could afford?! Government has a duty to the citizens, end of argument. What if these people didn't have ESB or running water? Would you begrudge them that? Cop on x 2.

What about the people that do it by choice not only price? WHy should we providing an inefficient schooling system for their desires at the cost of people who buy sensibly? I do not accept this theory that people are so forced into buying housese they have no choice. People weigh upi benifits of houses and they simply do not put a sufficient weight to education and other services.
I base this on personal observation and observation of the property market as it is part of my livelyhood. Cop on to the fact people made choices those personal choices were bad then and they only begining to realise now so are complaining. You don't have to buy a house and you certainly have a variety to choose from.

gaf1983 wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I share your concerns about pollution, decreasing oil supplies, traffic and road safety, but before encouraging people to decrease their car use alternatives must be present.

I think you have me wrong, I don't see why we offer an alternative. THese people chose to live miles from things why should we cater for them? Private purchases with obvious drawbacks and now they complain. Are we meant to cater for people commuting from Cavan daily? WHat limit to we say you made a bad choice and it is your fault.

gaf1983 wrote:

either by including the provision of them/contribution to their development as a condition of granting planning permission to the developers, or maybe by introducing a council tax similar to the one in England.

There is already for new builds. If there are not local facilities in your area the local council is reponsible now. THey are given money to provide these services. The planning of major roads is the main government.

sillysausage wrote:

I live in D9 also, and there are several reasons that the schools are under-populated, and neighbourhoods grow older. The most obvious being young people cannot afford to buy, and repopulated in the area, and also, the houses that have recently been sold in the Crestfield, Larkhill, Collins Ave Areas have been bought as a second property by 'older' investors, and rented to Third level students, and the likes.

So you live in D9 why are you complianing about something that the people themselves are responsible for before the government. I just pointed out statement about uderpopulated areas and schools is untrue I know the reasons. THird level students will use the housing stock in the area better than most as each beroom gets used in the houses. Instead of suggesting more building why not suggest a better use of resourses. Encourage older people to buy smaller housing more catered for their needs as they get older. Schemes to encourage exchange of housing for young families to get closer to the services. THe solution is not always to keep building.

sillysausage wrote:

I do not think that it is unfair of us to expect our government to plan ahead.

I think it is abit much to expect them to tell the future. I also don't think your few suggestion/expectations to be the only way.

sillysausage wrote:

It would seem obvious that by granting permission for several thousand houses to be built in a commuter belt area at a cheaper rate then those of a similar size in Dublin, these house will inevitably be occupied by young buyers, 1st time buyers and those of us who simply cannot afford the Dublin going rates.

How much control do you want the government to have over people? Note the government didn't build these house private devlopers did and private individuals bought. Should the government stop people buying and building. You can go on about the limited choices of people but they have a choice starting with to buy or not.

sillysausage wrote:

Once occupied, these people will require facilities such as schools. A school is not a luxury, and education is not unnecessary want, it is a need, and as such, it needs to be addressed by those who granted the planning permission in the first place!

Why didn't the people buying realise this first? If they needed a school why did they buy there? The house price would have been different to a house near a school. So people got a cheaper house. I do hold the local councils reposnible for a lot of this as they are getting money to provide such services. I also hold the people who bought yet people here are putting the blame on everybody but the people who bought the houses in baddly serviced areas.

sillysausage wrote:

If it is not the job of the government to give a little foresight into issues such as this, then whose job is it??

AS I have said you have not shown foresight into what would happen if the keep building roads to such areas. You increase the capacity of a road the traffic meets the capacity. Cars can't be sustained. A public transport system can't cater for the commuter belts becasue it is under populated to be cost effective.

Ireland has the highest home ownership in the world the next neraest is Italy and it has a shrinking population compared to our increasing one. You don't need to buy a house is the first choice is made by the buyer. The next choice is where and then what type. Cost of the house is only part of it. I think it is clear that the current government plan is to increase density in the suburbs.

AS somebody in D9 note the increase in density around you. 380 appartments on the Beaumont road, Santry, the industrial parks with appartments, the pubs with additional floors of appartments, corner houses building another house, houses being split in two etc...
The lack of foresight is to see what is going on around you. People who bought far out are going to experience worse traffic yet. As the density increase in their destination traffic will get worse increase road size won't help as it narrows into one point.
Look at other cities to see what happens. The 3-5 bed houses in many Dublin suburbs will be converted into seperate dwelling like in London. Family units are breaking up and familys are getting smaller too. 3 bed semis aren't needed as the once were yet people still want them.

Boggle · 25-01-2006 02:59PM

Don't I get a reply?:rolleyes:

MorningStar · 25-01-2006 03:19PM

Boggle wrote:

Don't I get a reply?:rolleyes:

I replied to you at the time:p

Boggle · 25-01-2006 03:32PM

Oh no you didn't...

LegacyUser · 25-01-2006 03:43PM

MorningStar, I think you are being a little dismissive of the impact that price can play in the homebuyers decision making process.

You have mentioned that many commuter belt residents have chosen to live outside the great Dublin area based on a want for an unnecessarily BIG house.

For some, perhaps this is the case, for the majority, I beg to differ.

You are right when you say that people actively chose to buy houses in commuter belt areas, as opposed to high-rise, more economic properties in Dublin.

I too, given a choice, would prefer to purchase a 3-bed semi with my own garden etc. When purchasing a property, and potentially parting with several hundred thousand euro, should personal preference not play a significant part?

Also, when comparing the cost of a 3-bed room apartment in the D9, D11, D13, D7 area to the cost of a 3-bedroom house in the Portarlington/Kildare/Portlaois area's, the house price is by far the better value for money.

I believe that the majority of people move to commuter belt areas based not a preference for a larger property, but based on financial motives.

So if someone cannot afford to purchase property in Dublin, is it only fair that they should have to be content with
1] Renting for the rest of their lives
2] Living without necessary amenities

Taken From Daft.ie

87 Chapel Gate, Saint Alphonsus' Road Upper, Drumcondra,
Dublin 9,
North Dublin City
Apartment For Sale
Excess €650,000
3 Bedrooms, 2 Bathrooms

Apt. 70 Temple Gardens Northwood, Santry,
Dublin 9,
North Dublin City
Apartment For Sale
Excess €525,000
3 Bedrooms, 1 Bathroom

Riverside, Portarlington,
Co. Laois
Terraced House
Region €193,000
3 Bedrooms, 2 Bathrooms

21 Bianconi Way, Portlaoise,
Co. Laois
Semi-Detached House
Region €180,000
3 Bedrooms, 2 Bathrooms

No Forward Planning - EVER!!!

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