Dave Kitson for Ireland?

Jivin Turkey · 18-01-2006 12:00AM

MrJoeSoap wrote:

So?

So, Kitson appears to be a far better player than Doyle. He has been banging goals in for a few years now, and steadily improving his goal ratio and the level he is doing it at.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Doyle is Irish, Kitson isn't.

Well according to reports/speculation both are eligible for Ireland, which is all that matters.

Who cares if Kitson was not born here?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Give me a decent Irish player over a non-Irish player of any calibre any day.

Well according to the rules, both are "Irish". Would you consider say Roy Keane's children "non-Irish" just because they were not born here?

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Well we can certainly get one.

True. Let's hope we can get the better one also.

MrJoeSoap · 18-01-2006 12:22AM

Jivin Turkey wrote:

So, Kitson appears to be a far better player than Doyle. He has been banging goals in for a few years now, and steadily improving his goal ratio and the level he is doing it at.

No argument there, except that Doyle has not had the length of time to prove himself at Reading, but had quite a good record for Cork.

Well according to reports/speculation both are eligible for Ireland, which is all that matters.

Yep, both potentially eligible.

Who cares if Kitson was not born here?

Me.

Well according to the rules, both are "Irish". Would you consider say Roy Keane's children "non-Irish" just because they were not born here?

I would consider them primarily English, as they haven't lived in Ireland. Their "second nationality" would of course be Irish.

True. Let's hope we can get the better one also.

Here's a scenario for you. You've been a footballer for 5 or 6 years, and have recently shot into the limelight after moving to England from Ireland (a country where you have grown up and lived all your life). You have a desire to play for your country, as all sane footballers do, and lots of people are touting you for the Irish squad.

You get a call-up, get a feel for the whole set-up and leave a happy man, despite not having played, yet hopeful that you will have another try soon.

A new manager is appointed, who makes it clear that he is looking into foreign born players who may have grandparents or parents from Ireland. Some of these people may rarely, if ever, have set foot on Irish soil. One such player happens to be your strike partner at your new club, a thoroughly English lad, who will realistically never play for his country of birth.

Now, heres the thing. Who is more deserving of a chance?

Jivin Turkey · 18-01-2006 12:45AM

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I would consider them primarily English, as they haven't lived in Ireland. Their "second nationality" would of course be Irish.

So in order to be "Irish" in your eyes you have to have lived here?

So what about a Japanese man who comes to live here and work here, is he more "Irish" than say the children of a professional Irish footballer (in England)? The only reason the children don't live here is due to the profession of their father, they could still be raised as Irish as they come.

Recent legislation passed here now means that even birth in this country does not entitle one to "Irishness", and rightly so IMO, but we are going waaaay off topic to continue this discussion.

As football rules state, Kitson is as Irish as Doyle.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Here's a scenario for you. You've been a footballer for 5 or 6 years, and have recently shot into the limelight after moving to England from Ireland (a country where you have grown up and lived all your life). You have a desire to play for your country, as all sane footballers do, and lots of people are touting you for the Irish squad.

You get a call-up, get a feel for the whole set-up and leave a happy man, despite not having played, yet hopeful that you will have another try soon.

A new manager is appointed, who makes it clear that he is looking into foreign born players who may have grandparents or parents from Ireland. Some of these people may rarely, if ever, have set foot on Irish soil. One such player happens to be your strike partner at your new club, a thoroughly English lad, who will realistically never play for his country of birth.

Now, heres the thing. Who is more deserving of a chance?

Both are equally deserving of a chance as long as both will fight for the shirt, and will do so for the right reasons.

I fail to see how this is comparable to the Doyle/Kitson scenario. You have madea a lot of assumptions.

MrJoeSoap · 18-01-2006 12:54AM

Right fair enough, we've completely differing opinions on this. In my eyes you have to have lived in Ireland for a period of time to be considered Irish, the grandparents rule is mostly exploited by weaker countries like ourselves. Its no coincidence that the players we generally get to play for us are the ones who aren't good enough for their own country.

dr zoidberg · 18-01-2006 01:03AM

Draupnir wrote:

The best players play for Ireland, simple as. If they qualify as per the rules thats good enough for me.

As someone else said, not in the same context, once we qualify!

It's not even FIFA's rule. All FIFA say is that you need to be able to get a passport and citizenship to play for that country. Thanks to our ridiculous citizenship law you're guaranteed a passport if your granny is Irish but you can be born here and not get one.

I don't have a problem with it. We need as many quality players as we can get.

Jivin Turkey · 18-01-2006 01:03AM

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Right fair enough, we've completely differing opinions on this.

I wouldn't be so sure.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

In my eyes you have to have lived in Ireland for a period of time to be considered Irish

I disagree with this.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

the grandparents rule is mostly exploited by weaker countries like ourselves. Its no coincidence that the players we generally get to play for us are the ones who aren't good enough for their own country.

I agree with this.

The main point of my original post however was that should Kitson be officially declared eligible, he is far more deserving of a call-up based on performances than Doyle. Having said that, I would love to see both in the squad.

MrJoeSoap · 18-01-2006 01:09AM

Jivin Turkey wrote:

The main point of my original post however was that should Kitson be officially declared eligible, he is far more deserving of a call-up based on performances than Doyle. Having said that, I would love to see both in the squad.

Well I'm of the opinion that Irish-born and bred players should have first preference. I guess thats where we differ.

BillyBoy · 18-01-2006 10:10AM

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Well I'm of the opinion that Irish-born and bred players should have first preference. I guess thats where we differ.

I agree with you MrJoeSoap in this situation. However do you beleive that a mediocre Irish-born player should get preference over a better player who is not irish-born (not talking about the Doyle/Kitson situation btw)?
I for one would like to see both Doyle and Kitson in the squad. Stan hasn't come out and said he would pick Kitson ahead of Doyle. Both players seem to be bang on form so if we can pick them both in the squad it will only make us better.

dcarroll · 18-01-2006 10:21PM

But give me a Kitson, Nolan or Trundle to bring on rather than Gary Doherty while we are on the verge not qualifying for the WC, thats my point and I would put Doyle in front of these

kensutz · 18-01-2006 10:47PM

Doherty is a DEFENDER!!!

dcarroll · 18-01-2006 11:05PM

Tell that to the ireland manager (and while you are talking to him ask him is he a better defender than Paul McShane)

whiskeyman · 19-01-2006 07:27PM

Apparently Dave Kitson have said today that he's flattered to be approached and seen in high regard from Stan, but he doesnt agree with the Granny Rule and wont be pursuing playing for the international squad.
Heard this on Newstalk this evening.
Looks like he must have his mind set on England so.

MrJoeSoap · 19-01-2006 08:03PM

Fair play to Kitson, would have been easy to try his luck with us.

*cough* Zat Knight *cough*

KdjaCL · 19-01-2006 08:07PM

Aw crap really wanted him to play for us, who is next on the paddy hit list?

Ohhhh i hope its someone from an even lower division whos really good but just misunderstood as crap!!!!

kdjac

eirebhoy · 19-01-2006 08:10PM

whiskeyman wrote:

Looks like he must have his mind set on England so.

I think he just doesn't want to play international football for the sake of it. He seems to have his head screwed on and knows he has little chance of making the England team with the likes of Owen and Rooney around.

"It is obviously flattering, to use an old cliche to be linked with Ireland and it is nice to be thought of so highly by somebody that I respect within the game.

"But I wouldn't do it. It's got nothing to do with Ireland or the Irish people and I am certainly not naive enough to think that I am good enough.

"It's just that I don't believe in the grandparent rule and it's something I don't like about international football.

"This is my own little stand and that's just it. I think you should play for the country you were born in.

"We have got a terrific young talent here at Reading called Shane Long, who has just played in two FA Cup ties against West Brom. I don't want to be the player standing in the way of him or Kevin Doyle playing for their country.

"Ireland has their own 100 per cent Irish talent and if people don't agree with me then that's fine because I am not out to win platitudes.

"Ireland have got Kevin Doyle who is doing very well and is very capable of playing international football and in Robbie Keane and Damien Duff they have got some of the best players in the world.

"I think the situation here in England is farcical where you have clubs bringing in a foreign player for the same amount of money that it would cost to nurture three home grown players. That's why FIFA and UEFA are introducing rules about home grown talent.

"My grandfather, who had emigrated from Ireland, died when my father was quite young so I never knew him. Growing up in Tottenham I wasn't really aware of my Irish roots. Our upbringing was quite English.

"Everybody was waiting for the big transfer signing during the close season but the manager only brought in Kevin, Shane and Hunty.

"But as soon as they got on the training pitch you could see the great potential. We got Kevin for around €70,000 and he is now worth €3million.

"He got called into the Irish squad after about 20 games but you don't become an international player after 20 games.

"You just don't know where the next gem is going to come from.

"He is a fantastic player to play with. He is not afraid to do the work and will run his socks off. While he'd be disappointed not to score as long as the team does well he is happy.

"I sometimes think he is a mirror image of me in terms of playing style. He is a terrific lad."

KdjaCL · 19-01-2006 08:15PM

eirebhoy wrote:

I think he just doesn't want to play international football for the sake of it. He seems to have his head screwed on and knows he has little chance of making the England team with the likes of Owen and Rooney around.

"It is obviously flattering, to use an old cliche to be linked with Ireland and it is nice to be thought of so highly by somebody that I respect within the game.

"But I wouldn't do it. It's got nothing to do with Ireland or the Irish people and I am certainly not naive enough to think that I am good enough.

"It's just that I don't believe in the grandparent rule and it's something I don't like about international football.

"This is my own little stand and that's just it. I think you should play for the country you were born in.

"We have got a terrific young talent here at Reading called Shane Long, who has just played in two FA Cup ties against West Brom. I don't want to be the player standing in the way of him or Kevin Doyle playing for their country.

"Ireland has their own 100 per cent Irish talent and if people don't agree with me then that's fine because I am not out to win platitudes.

"Ireland have got Kevin Doyle who is doing very well and is very capable of playing international football and in Robbie Keane and Damien Duff they have got some of the best players in the world.

"I think the situation here in England is farcical where you have clubs bringing in a foreign player for the same amount of money that it would cost to nurture three home grown players. That's why FIFA and UEFA are introducing rules about home grown talent.

"My grandfather, who had emigrated from Ireland, died when my father was quite young so I never knew him. Growing up in Tottenham I wasn't really aware of my Irish roots. Our upbringing was quite English.

"Everybody was waiting for the big transfer signing during the close season but the manager only brought in Kevin, Shane and Hunty.

"But as soon as they got on the training pitch you could see the great potential. We got Kevin for around €70,000 and he is now worth €3million.

"He got called into the Irish squad after about 20 games but you don't become an international player after 20 games.

"You just don't know where the next gem is going to come from.

"He is a fantastic player to play with. He is not afraid to do the work and will run his socks off. While he'd be disappointed not to score as long as the team does well he is happy.

"I sometimes think he is a mirror image of me in terms of playing style. He is a terrific lad."

Now thats refreshing to see.

kdjac

cournioni · 20-01-2006 09:54AM

kensutz wrote:

Doherty is a DEFENDER!!!

Is he? It's hard to tell what the hell that man is...

kensutz · 20-01-2006 03:50PM

Yes he is, he's played all the games for us as defender and I see him week in week out and he's excellent this season winning player of the month on a few occasions.

cournioni · 20-01-2006 06:03PM

kensutz wrote:

Yes he is, he's played all the games for us as defender and I see him week in week out and he's excellent this season winning player of the month on a few occasions.

Is this the same Gary Doherty that I am thinking of? You know, the one that has ginger hair and the control, pace and turn of a ship?

kensutz · 20-01-2006 06:21PM

Thats him

dcarroll · 20-01-2006 11:43PM

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Is this the same Gary Doherty that I am thinking of? You know, the one that has ginger hair and the control, pace and turn of a ship?

Did Norwich fans not have a Make Doherty History campaign earlier in the season?

On the Irish squad, does anyone know where Theo Walcott's grandparents are from

MrJoeSoap · 21-01-2006 02:16AM

dcarroll wrote:

On the Irish squad, does anyone know where Theo Walcott's grandparents are from

Doesn't really matter, he's not in any way Irish and will be in the England squad in a year or two.

kensutz · 21-01-2006 11:53AM

They did until he proved most of the fans wrong. Now he's loved at Carrow Road

PHB · 21-01-2006 01:23PM

I remember Doherty against United last season, and he was utterly destroyed, and was the cause of all the goals. Maybe he can hack it at Championship level, but an international defender he is not.
I would choose any of the following ahead of him

O'Shea
Dunne
O'Shea
O'Brien

----

I think the real searching for Irish talent shouldn't be in England, but in the USA

MrJoeSoap · 21-01-2006 02:26PM

PHB wrote:

I think the real searching for Irish talent shouldn't be in England, but in the USA

Other than O'Brien I don't think there are any other Irish players (of notable standard) in the MLS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_MLS_players#Ireland

eirebhoy · 31-01-2006 01:14AM

Kitson's last words:

"Since the change of management there's been talk about this again.

"First time around I practically set in stone that I was not interested, as flattered as I was.

"It's a little frustrating that journalists can ask a question, then six months later they can ask again and think the answer will change. It's the same people asking me again, looking for a story that does not exist, I'm afraid.

"I'm flattered to be considered good enough to play for them, but I reiterate what I said first time around. To me, my family is not Irish. I've only ever had English family around me, my parents were born in north London, so was I, and as far as I'm concerned I'm English.

"But that in no way means I'm only holding out to play for England. I'm not naive enough to think I'm good enough, so it's really not for that purpose.

"This is purely because of my principles. I don't agree that you should be eligible because of your grandparents. Where do you draw the line? What about great-grandparents or great-great grandparents? For me it's just about parents or where you were born and brought up.

"This is just my own little stand against a rule. It might get headlines but it won't really make any difference and in two weeks it'll be forgotten. I just don't want to compromise my principles.

"I've only ever heard a few rumours about an Irish call up. I felt this way before I even considered Ireland though. I've always supported England.

"All this has come to my attention even more now that we've got Kevin Doyle, Shane Long and Stephen Hunt here. Let's say I play and therefore stand in the way of someone like them, who is 100% Irish and would give anything to play for their country. I would feel a hyprocrite and be denying them a chance they deserve."

"It's something I have had to think about, it's surreal to even think that us playing together for Ireland could happen but I stand by my beliefs.

"I won't be a player that denies any emerging Irish talent a chance to play in a World Cup or European Championships.

"This is definitely the right decision for me. Lots of people can't understand it but I'm not asking them to. I've not made this decision to affect people or gain respect.

"It's annoying that some people in the game look at this from a financial point of view. They say I could play and up my value and up my wages but that disappoints me so much, it really does.

"People with no morals have been telling me what to do, and to tell me to do it for financial gain is just so disappointing. I don't need to be told by anyone."

Kingp35 · 31-01-2006 01:50AM

Fair play to him!

tetsujin1979 · 31-01-2006 11:22AM

From today's Indo, hopefully this will be the end of it
http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=12&si=1552200

However, Reading striker Dave Kitson reiterated that under no circumstances will he be playing for Ireland in the future.

"I'm flattered to be considered good enough to play for them," he said. "But I reiterate what I said first time around. To me, my family is not Irish.

"I've only ever had English family around me, my parents were born in north London, so was I, and as far as I'm concerned I'm English."

Xavi6 · 27-01-2008 11:54AM

So looks like Kitson is about to get a call up for England. He's come along way since these Irish rumours -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/gossip_and_transfers/7211587.stm

Reading striker Dave Kitson will be the shock new name when coach Fabio Capello announces his first England squad this week. (News of the World & The Sunday Times)

Quite the surprise name to be getting a call up

Unearthly · 27-01-2008 12:00PM

Xavi6 wrote: »

So looks like Kitson is about to get a call up for Ireland. He's come along way since these Irish rumours -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/gossip_and_transfers/7211587.stm

Quite the surprise name to be getting a call up

We bloody wish Capello was our manager;)

Dave Kitson for Ireland?

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