Are Goths jumped-up Skangers?

azezil · 12-03-2002 06:19PM

1. A style of rock music that often evokes bleak, lugubrious imagery.
2. A performer or follower of this style of music.

or

A member of a Germanic people who invaded the Roman Empire in the early centuries of the Christian era.

or

a crude uncouth ill-bred person lacking culture or refinement

or

one of the Teutonic people who invaded the Roman Empire in the 3rd to 5th centuries

there ya go wwman now shaddup

lol

Keeks · 12-03-2002 08:42PM

Originally posted by SearrarD

what makes someone a hippy and not some thing else?....can we really define a way of life other than religion...i dont know

So how do you claim to be a Goth when you can't define it?

I think this statement explains it perfectly. Its all about labeling. In general if ppl label themselves they are trying to conform to idea, lifestyle or philosophy rather than being part of it and experienceing it. Labels are there for the ppl on the outside looking in. If you claim to be a goth then you are probably not really a goth.

A practical example of this was the "grunge" music scene in Seattle in the late '80s early '90s, with bands like Green River, Mudhoney and Soundgarden. Some reporter termed the word "grunge" or that the music sounded "grungy". The word grunge was a way of descibing the Seattle music sence to us outsiders. No one within the scene used the word grunge.

When Nirvana made it big, "grunge" became the new buzzword, and the word spread across the world, and new "grunge" bands appeared all around, which had nothing to do with the original music scene. And the word grunge became an evil word in Seattle music scene.

These bands that were termed "grunge bands" are still create music, still apart of the Seattel scene, still have there own beliefs, but don't claim to be "grunge bands".

Be happy that you're you. Don't claim to be something that you might not actully be.

Karl Hungus · 12-03-2002 08:47PM

IT'S NOT JAM!!! IT'S MARMALADE!!!

IT'S NOT MARMALADE!!! IT'S JAM!!!

Christ this is the most ****ing tediious thing ever...

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

its about angelwhore amking stupid statements as usual, and im picking up on it.
so therefore i am asking him the above things for the above reasons which im not going 5o go through again, and as usual he wont answer

I swear to god, you must have selective memory, WWM!
I'm not going to blurb along about all the insult rubbish.

What you're asking for has been said over and over.

I'm not going to tell you to go back and look again, I'm going to quote myself for your benifit:

Originally posted by AngelWhore

I think I have a simpler way of doing things now, I'll try and see if it gets through to anyone.

Lets say for the moment that Goth IS just the music, and nothing else.
With that in mind, then, we shall compare some bands.
Compare Korn, Slipknot, and the likes to Sisters Of Mercy and Fields of The Nephilim.
It's like comparing Britney Spears to some Brazilian jazz, the difference is so monumental.

Now...
Lets say for the moment that Goth is just about the image, and nothing else.
And you look at the general TBMC crowd: Baggy jeans, hoodies, skateboards...
Then you'd take a look at some of the peeps in a goth club or such-like: PVC, Leather, mesh tops, bondage gear.
The only similarity being that it's a lot of black, but that's generaly a rock thing as a whole, might as well say Johnny Cash is goth.
So again, stark contrast.

Now...
Lets say for a moment that Goth is all about attitude, and nothing else.
Looking at the general TBMC crowd, you got the general rebellious kid phase, the 'I hate my parents' stuff.
The general goth attitude is rather hedonistic, out for fun, and generally not really bothered with other people as such.
So, quite different, yes?

po0k · 12-03-2002 10:28PM

Toe Foo Puddin

WhiteWashMan · 12-03-2002 11:24PM

Originally posted by AngelWhore
IT'S NOT JAM!!! IT'S MARMALADE!!!

IT'S NOT MARMALADE!!! IT'S JAM!!!

Christ this is the most ****ing tediious thing ever...

I swear to god, you must have selective memory, WWM!
I'm not going to blurb along about all the insult rubbish.

What you're asking for has been said over and over.

I'm not going to tell you to go back and look again, I'm going to quote myself for your benifit:

as expected, once again youve told us.... nothing.
so, have you managed to give us all your definition of what a goth is and how these kids are not allowed into the gand on your say so?

go on angelwhore, go and tell us why?
or am i completely right in saying that once again your spouting pure rubbish?

Clintons Cat · 13-03-2002 02:31AM

then some of the older stuff like Sisters of Mercy, Fields Of The Nephilim, Joy Division, The Cure, which is all pretty 80's

when did Joy division become a goth band?Why is Celtic Frost or soiuxsie souix not on your list?
Clearly your knowledge is not as authoritive as you might claim it to be.Honestly they let anyone in these days.

I remember when being a goth was about hanging out in camden palace on a tuesdaynight at feet first smoking grass and not giving a **** what anyone else was wearing.

Fu,king kid wannabees.

Karl Hungus · 13-03-2002 03:48AM

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
as expected, once again youve told us.... nothing.
so, have you managed to give us all your definition of what a goth is and how these kids are not allowed into the gand on your say so?

go on angelwhore, go and tell us why?
or am i completely right in saying that once again your spouting pure rubbish?

And here we go back again to me telling you thi for, how many times is it now? I've lost count.
Try and get it this time, ok?
I'm *NOT* saying ANYONE is not allowed into any group, or any such thing!

What I am saying is:
The temple bar kids are something DIFFERENT to Goth.

Get it?

If the kids actualy WANTED to go down the local goth club, listen to aforementioned bands, hang out with the peeps, there's no problem at all!

But generally, they wouldn't really want to!
They're there, doing their thing, hanging about with their crowd, skating around listening to Korn, Deftones, and the usual nu-metal/skater stuff. And I'm pretty sure they're not even ****ing bothered about any goth stuff what-so-ever!
They have their thing, and what I'm say is: It's not the same thing as goth!
Do you understand???

And please, if you come back and make another blurb that's been adressed 4 times already, and make me keep quoting myself, I'm going to headbutt my keyboard.

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
when did Joy division become a goth band?Why is Celtic Frost or soiuxsie souix not on your list?
Clearly your knowledge is not as authoritive as you might claim it to be.Honestly they let anyone in these days.

I remember when being a goth was about hanging out in camden palace on a tuesdaynight at feet first smoking grass and not giving a **** what anyone else was wearing.

Fu,king kid wannabees.

Take a look back over my posts:

Originally posted by AngelWhore

bands: Lacrimosa, Siouxsie and The Banshees, Fields of The Nephilim, Depeche Mode, The Mission, Alien Sex Fiend, Midnight Configuration, Bauhaus.

I'm sick and tired of having to quote myself!
It's all there people, just ****ing look!

And I was under the impression that Celtic Frost were Thrash?
At least Joy Division were a lot closer to goth than they ever were.

And to EVERYONE who is going to post:
Take a ****ing look at what I've ALREADY said for crying out loud!

Raggamuffin · 13-03-2002 04:42AM

Hmmmmmm
i'm confused......
This is all really an image is'nt it?

I really hate these people who research so much into what category of society they fit into it makes me laugh.

Is'nt goth clothing expensive because the only reason i wear certain clothes is probably because its cheap and durable.

Maybe its all just a fashion issue>????

Personally i've never been bothered walking through temple bar but it is quite sad to see all those kids wasting themselves i mean is'nt there more enjoyable things to be doing than getting wasted at a street corner (which scangers do too)
i don't wear any clothing or patchs or stickers to show my likes/dislikes thats pretty much up to the person who decidees to talk to me........does'nt happen often/./.......

eh whatever

Dr. Loon · 13-03-2002 09:13AM

Originally posted by Keeks

So how do you claim to be a Goth when you can't define it?

I think this statement explains it perfectly. Its all about labeling. In general if ppl label themselves they are trying to conform to idea, lifestyle or philosophy rather than being part of it and experienceing it. Labels are there for the ppl on the outside looking in. If you claim to be a goth then you are probably not really a goth.

A practical example of this was the "grunge" music scene in Seattle in the late '80s early '90s, with bands like Green River, Mudhoney and Soundgarden. Some reporter termed the word "grunge" or that the music sounded "grungy". The word grunge was a way of descibing the Seattle music sence to us outsiders. No one within the scene used the word grunge.

When Nirvana made it big, "grunge" became the new buzzword, and the word spread across the world, and new "grunge" bands appeared all around, which had nothing to do with the original music scene. And the word grunge became an evil word in Seattle music scene.

These bands that were termed "grunge bands" are still create music, still apart of the Seattel scene, still have there own beliefs, but don't claim to be "grunge bands".

Be happy that you're you. Don't claim to be something that you might not actully be.

Spot fúcking on. I don't think anyone else should have posted after this... Keeks has it sussed and someone should close this rediculous thread which appears every few months.

WWM... you're just arguing with AH for the sake of it, and AH... your posts aren't actually answering his questions satisfactorily... even I'm not satisfied with the answers you're givin, but Keeks has it sussed. We should all leave it at that.

I used to claim myself a grunge head, because I listened to the "grunge" bands and probably dressed much like they dressed themselves (I was young

) but it is true that all those bands I listened to, in interviews, claimed this "grunge" shíte was just the media labelling things like they always do. Load of bóllox really.

WhiteWashMan · 13-03-2002 10:04AM

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
WWM... you're just arguing with AH for the sake of it, and AH... your posts aren't actually answering his questions satisfactorily... even I'm not satisfied with the answers you're givin, but Keeks has it sussed. We should all leave it at that.

agreed, but im sick of stupid posts from angelwhore claiming stupid things which he belives that he cant then back up.
at least if oyure going to make a stupid statement back it up.
and so round and round it goes with me asking the same question and angelwhore not giving an answer until he gets tired and doesnt bother to respond.
but apparently if you listen to death goth black satanic scandinavioan obscure metal it means you are an infinate wisdom on everything. or something.....

Dr. Loon · 13-03-2002 10:35AM

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

but apparently if you listen to death goth black satanic scandinavioan obscure metal it means you are an infinate wisdom on everything. or something.....

Ya never know... these people may have a higher intelligence, they may know things we don't!
I must check out some obscure Scandinavian metal.

Mr.Applepie · 13-03-2002 12:48PM

Oh the ranting that has gone on in this thread reminds me of the humanities board.

Originally posted by Asuka
To the best of my knowledge, 'Goths' were a group of Barbarians instrumental in the destruction of the Roman Empire. 'Gothic' was a form of architecture predominant in the middle ages, which emphasised making things pointed.

I believe it was the gauls(from France&Germany afaik) not the goths who were the barbarians in the destruction of Rome. Gothic was a form of architecture from around the 10-13 century just before the rennesence(sp?). Ah good old memories of JC history

Beruthiel · 13-03-2002 01:35PM

Speaking on behalf of my 13yr old daughter, who has been listening to my music since the word go - I believe it's a comfort thing. ie - at that age you dress like a little girl or a rocker/goth or the tracksuits.
she is comfortable in the big baggy jeans and the black t-shirts (in other words she doesn't feel comfortable in the other stuff)
she will grow out of it in time and will develop her own style, but for now it's just a case of where to fit in at that age, belonging and not an 'outsider'
She has asked more than once to go to TBMC - I will not let her, and have told her why (for most of the reasons already stated here) she's smart enough to get that.

as for the music thing, she, like me, likes a variety of music even if it does lean towards the heavy side.

in other words how can you possibly pigeon hole anyone these days - most peoples dress style and music style varies so much that all you can really say is you lean towards a certain field and thats it.
I believe most of the kids who hang out at TBMC are looking for a place to fit in and it's there for the moment.

I know I'm ranting a bit now, but to answer WWM question, what is a goth? I don't think you can answer it other than to say my preferences lean towards the gothic style/rocker style or whatever your particular likes are.

Hobbes · 13-03-2002 01:55PM

Originally posted by ayatollah
some goth chicks are fine!!!!!!!!!!!

and some aren't. Was there a point to that?

Mr.Applepie · 13-03-2002 01:59PM

Originally posted by Hobbes

and some aren't. Was there a point to that?

Yes that goths and WWM dont mix well

[edit]I have edited my post to help you understand WWM. Maybe you should use ":)*" this device also.

*Note this device is used without permission of azreal/ezieal/azizal(ah whatever) to cause distress to WhiteWashMan and AMP. [/edit]

WhiteWashMan · 13-03-2002 02:09PM

Originally posted by Mr.Applepie

Yes that goths and WWM dont mix well

and i said that where?
please reference it will you.

and beruthiel, as i said, i know what i think a goth is. i dont want your definition. im still waiting on angelwhores definition so he can tell me how he manages to 'pigeon-hole' everyone into some catagory if he doesnt like them because they listen to a band he doesnt like.
jesus, am i really that bad at making a point?

Squeaks · 13-03-2002 03:12PM

The question is not whether they are jumped up scumbags. But whether yor veiw is more like tunnel vision. To decide that just because of one incident you condem the rest of these kids (which i suspect they where to begin with.) to a label normally reserved for the reebox wearin, knuckle draggin joyous people of dublin. of which i've had more problems with than anybody. At least with goths/thrashers etc. they have a sence of humor about how they are seen. lets face it for music as generall depressing or raging against injustices blah blah blah, i have never run into a person who was as deprssed as the goth music they listen to. they are disturbingly happy. As with any group you get bad people, but for **** sake cop the **** on and see past the thick as **** bastards with the beer cans. You never know you might become as amused with they as i am.

Lolo · 13-03-2002 03:25PM

Originally posted by SheroN
as far as im concerned, if goths were extras in Dracula that would be ok, but in everyday life they look silly. They should cheer the **** up and leave the white face make up to the joker.

that is all.

Back when I were a Goff, when all this were all fields (of the Nephilim variety, of course), the whole point was to look like an extra from Dracula in your everyday environment, and inject a bit of glamour and exotic-ness into your own, and other people's lives. And maybe it does start out as an attention-seeking thing when you're very young, but as you get older it just becomes a matter of taste.

As to the original question of this thread, I can only comment on the late 80s/ early 90s Goth scene as I don't really participate any more (yes, Khynareth, I've become one of those people who - gasp! - wears pink and green, mind you I did even when I was a Goth, come to think of it). But the most striking thing about the Dublin Goth scene in them days was that it totally transcended class barriers, much more so than in England, for instance, where it was more middle class. Some of the Goths I hung out with were from seriously posh areas, some were from very rough estates. The thing that united us was that we all had to put up with a lot of verbal and physical abuse from the 'normal' people in our areas, which taught me a valuble lesson - that there are scumbags everywhere, be they rich scumbags or skanger scumbags. And yes, some of the Goths I knew were jumped-up skangers always looking for a fight and criticising anyone who was different to them, just as some of them were rugger-buggers in disguise.

Karl Hungus · 13-03-2002 07:59PM

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
Spot fúcking on. I don't think anyone else should have posted after this... Keeks has it sussed and someone should close this rediculous thread which appears every few months.

WWM... you're just arguing with AH for the sake of it, and AH... your posts aren't actually answering his questions satisfactorily... even I'm not satisfied with the answers you're givin, but Keeks has it sussed. We should all leave it at that.

I used to claim myself a grunge head, because I listened to the "grunge" bands and probably dressed much like they dressed themselves (I was young ) but it is true that all those bands I listened to, in interviews, claimed this "grunge" shíte was just the media labelling things like they always do. Load of bóllox really.

It's a good comparison, but my arguement is not with keeks.

But I agree, WWM seems to be argueing just for the sake of it.
Maybe my answers aren't satisfactory, because WWM doesn't even have a grasp on what I am talking about what-so-ever.

I mean, look at what he says next:

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
agreed, but im sick of stupid posts from angelwhore claiming stupid things which he belives that he cant then back up.
at least if oyure going to make a stupid statement back it up.
and so round and round it goes with me asking the same question and angelwhore not giving an answer until he gets tired and doesnt bother to respond.
but apparently if you listen to death goth black satanic scandinavioan obscure metal it means you are an infinate wisdom on everything. or something.....

NOW look at what I have said on my very first response to WWM's innane babble:

Originally posted by AngelWhore
You'll actualy find that a lot of Goths don't like Metal at all.

You're obviously as know-nothing as the kids, thinking that goth is how heavy it is. Which couldn't be further from the truth.
When I'm in London I always go out to the really cool Goth clubs over there, and the kind of stuff that's played is bands like VNV Nation, Die Krupps, Bella Morte, Front 242, then some of the older stuff like Sisters of Mercy, Fields Of The Nephilim, Joy Division, The Cure, which is all pretty 80's.

All this couldn't be further than all the death metal you have me pinned with.
Get it into your head, it's got NOTHING to do with how heavy the music is.

So, try to understand that my arguement is *NOT* a 'Holier than thou' (Or in this case, heavier than thou) type blurp.

Now, exact same thing the next post:

But, if you're serious, WWM. Trust me.
Do a little experiment, just to try and clarify the situation, ok?
Go down to temple bar at the weekend, find the steriotypical 16 year old in baggy pants and a Korn hoodie, carrying a skateboard, and ask this person do they know any of the following bands: Lacrimosa, Siouxsie and The Banshees, Fields of The Nephilim, Depeche Mode, The Mission, Alien Sex Fiend, Midnight Configuration, Bauhaus.
Then, go down to Frazers bar on O Connell street on Saturday night, and go down to the basement bar, and ask the people down there about said bands.
Also, take notice of the differences between musical taste, clothing, general attitude, and all things relevant.

But it doesn't seem to sink in:

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
morpheus didnt see a gand of kids in the square saying how cool it is to be able to see the matrix and then say, hey! you guys, you dont know jack because you havent got x, y, or z!

This was in response to the matrix things.
WWM doesn't realise that it's got nothing to do with whether or not they have x, y, or z.
It's that x, y, and z are different things to a, b, and c.

Originally posted by AngelWhore
And here we go back again to me telling you thi for, how many times is it now? I've lost count.
Try and get it this time, ok?
I'm *NOT* saying ANYONE is not allowed into any group, or any such thing!

What I am saying is:
The temple bar kids are something DIFFERENT to Goth.

Get it?

If the kids actualy WANTED to go down the local goth club, listen to aforementioned bands, hang out with the peeps, there's no problem at all!

But generally, they wouldn't really want to!
They're there, doing their thing, hanging about with their crowd, skating around listening to Korn, Deftones, and the usual nu-metal/skater stuff. And I'm pretty sure they're not even ****ing bothered about any goth stuff what-so-ever!
They have their thing, and what I'm say is: It's not the same thing as goth!
Do you understand???

And please, if you come back and make another blurb that's been adressed 4 times already, and make me keep quoting myself, I'm going to headbutt my keyboard.

But NO!!! It doesn't seem to sink in:

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
im still waiting on angelwhores definition so he can tell me how he manages to 'pigeon-hole' everyone into some catagory if he doesnt like them because they listen to a band he doesnt like.
jesus, am i really that bad at making a point?

And what's funny is this earlier:

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
so, have you managed to give us all your definition of what a goth is and how these kids are not allowed into the gand on your say so?

Has WWM short term memory loss???

I'M BANGING MY HEAD!!! I'M TRYING TO MAKE THE LUMP EVEN BIGGER!!!

Karl Hungus · 13-03-2002 08:06PM

Ph3n0m · 13-03-2002 08:30PM

this has to be one of the funniest threads I have read sine joining boards.ie

The initial post was asking "are goths\thrashers just jumped up skangers?"

'twas a simple question, now we have a war of words between people defining what "goth" means, to people describing their life a a "goth" to "marmalade is jam, jam is marmalade arguements"

i could offer an opinion on the entire thread or specific posts, but I really dont have the time nor the energy to get sucked into the black hole of the ludicrous.

someone said that "goth" was a lifestyle - maybe so, but who the f**k cares!

someone also said that "goths" were responsible for the destruction of the Romans - again who the f**k cares

this started out as a harmless thread, and now its just too funny to be taken seriously, although some of you seem to have taken the biscuit with some severely long and pointless posts (no names mentioned!!!!!!!!)

and now I have become another statistic, contributing a worthless post to an even worthless thread

ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, goths and skangers - I thank you*

(* i really dont mean thank you, but since I was positively nice in my above post, I thought I would come right out and say "this is f**ked up right here

)

Karl Hungus · 13-03-2002 08:40PM

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
someone also said that "goths" were responsible for the destruction of the Romans - again who the f**k cares

Yeah, I know what you mean.

You always get some smart-arse saying: "Well ACTUALY the Goths were a Germanic tribe."
You swear to ****, each and everyone one of them think that they're a ****ing genius, and that nobody has said it before them!

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 13-03-2002 09:37PM

Strange........i'm not a goth ne more but, i cant label when looking from the outside in.......

Friends moved on, i started something else, I changed, icant really explain what it was, i wore what i felt like, i listened to Death, and all the sorts, i hung around poeple that could be and were 'labeled' as goths, it was a mad time and i cant define who i was or what i was doing bar having a good time....no more than i can define who i am today

Keeks...is that enough or do you want more info?

WhiteWashMan · 14-03-2002 12:06AM

sorry angelwhore, but you still havent answered the question....

are you trying to avoid it or what?

or are you unable to type due to the scandinavian dark death magic metal playing in the background?

Karl Hungus · 14-03-2002 04:30AM

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
sorry angelwhore, but you still havent answered the question....

are you trying to avoid it or what?

or are you unable to type due to the scandinavian dark death magic metal playing in the background?

A band from England, if you MUST know! :mad:

And I've answered your ****ing question ten times over!!!

You're asking SPECIFICALY what is goth:

And to which I've answered a definition of each aspect: Be it music, clothing, general attituted or whatever.
Please dont make me quote myself again!

You even said in a previous post that I'd given you a definition:
(Second time quote this bit:)

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
so, have you managed to give us all your definition of what a goth is and how these kids are not allowed into the gand on your say so?

Despite the fact that you STILL dont understand that it's NOT a case of "They're aren't so and so enough to be blah!"
You've at that point admitted to me giving you a definition.

SEE A DOCTOR!!!
This CANNOT be healthy, WWMan.

For the good of us all, get yourself checked out.
Before you become a danger to yourself.

Monty - the one and only · 14-03-2002 07:13AM

off to humanities...

WhiteWashMan · 14-03-2002 09:51AM

roflol!

TwoShedsJackson · 14-03-2002 10:43AM

I think not

Karl Hungus · 14-03-2002 07:21PM

Well this thread died a death...

So, my point has been proven!

The TBMC kids aren't goth!

Monty - the one and only · 15-03-2002 01:05AM

and on that note

Are Goths jumped-up Skangers?

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