Are Goths jumped-up Skangers?

CodeMonkey · 12-03-2002 12:47AM

According to my Goth Bible 2002 edition, someone cannot just decide to become a goth. You have to be initiated by another goth and either offer a sacrafice to the lord of death or dance naked under a full moon. And that's not all, there are also many chapters in the goth bible detailing the rules and code of conduct a real goth has to follow such as no listening to Slipknot, hangs out with other goth wannabes in temple bar or be under 18. If you fail to meet the above criteria for instance then you are just a "****ing kid who hang around the music centre with a group known as the temple bar idiots". Being a goth is not to be taken lightly....

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 12-03-2002 12:49AM

lol you dont know the half of it!

i'd say a goth wouldnt call himself/herself a goth, for the sake that of, would that person care with labels?

can you define a 'hippy' WWM? without calling on clothes, attitudes, a state of mind......and yet they are true individuals

goths are very individual people, i have labeled them when i did not know them.....and when i did i found individuals and not stereotypes

Karl Hungus · 12-03-2002 04:26AM

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

um yah!
once again i think you completely fail to get the point....

you really dont take subtlety too well do you.

what makes a goth a goth?
yopu tell us how so and so isnt a goth, but what i want to know is, what does make a goth.
if you R E A D W H A T I S A I D S L O W L Y A N D C A R E F U L L Y
you will see what i am talking about.
god, do i have to put a fúcking smilie after every post for you hard of humoured?

Kettle, this is pot, YOU'RE BLACK!

I think SerranD said it wonderfully like this:

Originally posted by SearrarD
can you define a 'hippy' WWM? without calling on clothes, attitudes, a state of mind......

If you want to get down to dumb-assed insulting, why dont YOU R E A D W H AT I ' V E S A I D ! ! !
Stop being a ****ing clot, you idiot.
You really dont seem to be taking straight ****ing answers too well, do you?

Because, as it seems, you're the one not getting anything.

What's that WWM??? You feel a sore-ness in your anal region? Why that's irony, biting you in the ass.

Take notice of my post.
And take notice of the very first thing you see on my post.

is this it?
If so, take notice of irony chewing on your ass-meat.

You ask exaclty "What is Goth?"
I can't begin to explain what a downright stupid question it is.
And I don't exactly want to keep quoting SerranD again.
Why dont I ask, quite specifically, "What is a White Wash Man?" (First one who says troll, gets the prize of being the first person to say that he's a troll.)
I suppose to be considered Irish you must fit a very strict criteria, yes?

Oh, but I hear you cry: "Well if there isn't a strict criteria, why can't those kids be considered goth?"
This is quite simple, it's generalization!
Take notice of Seamus's post: *ALL* rockers get that. Remember back in Secondary school, when being a rocker was something which mystified people. All too often I'd hear, "So you hang around the Central Bank every weekend then, huh huh huh (dumb laugh)".
It's the same ****ing thing. And he seems to understand perfectly.

Here's an example:
Lets say Billy-Bob Yokel from Alabama thinks he's Irish, even though he has twelve generations of American inbreeding to prove otherwise. But, every white person in America *MUST* be of Irish decent, right?
I mean, a great majority of white people in America claim Irish heritance.

Extremely dumb comparison, I know.
But it kinda gets the point across.

I told you about the general musical intrests (Note: General, as in generalized) and general dress sense, and basically telling you to go out and see for yourself at whatever goth club you might find, and you'll see for yourself, and draw your own conclusions.
And other than that, you're not going to get any better answer.

But, if you're serious, WWM. Trust me.
Do a little experiment, just to try and clarify the situation, ok?
Go down to temple bar at the weekend, find the steriotypical 16 year old in baggy pants and a Korn hoodie, carrying a skateboard, and ask this person do they know any of the following bands: Lacrimosa, Siouxsie and The Banshees, Fields of The Nephilim, Depeche Mode, The Mission, Alien Sex Fiend, Midnight Configuration, Bauhaus.
Then, go down to Frazers bar on O Connell street on Saturday night, and go down to the basement bar, and ask the people down there about said bands.
Also, take notice of the differences between musical taste, clothing, general attitude, and all things relevant.

Then maybe you can figure it out for yourself. Ok?

Keeks · 12-03-2002 06:24AM

Originally posted by AngelWhore

You ask exaclty "What is Goth?"
I can't begin to explain what a downright stupid question it is.
And I don't exactly want to keep quoting SerranD again.
Why dont I ask, quite specifically, "What is a White Wash Man?" (First one who says troll, gets the prize of being the first person to say that he's a troll.)
I suppose to be considered Irish you must fit a very strict criteria, yes?

If you can't answer the question, if you can't "define" what a Goth is, then how do you know that the "kiddies' outside the music centre aren't Goths?

Is it a taste in music, clothes or a religion thing? Is it an appreciation of architecture? What makes you a Goth and those kiddies not goths? (I'm assuming you consider yourself to be gothic since your on the offensive over ppl calling those kids goths).

Why does it annoy you so much anyway that they label themselves that?

Karl Hungus · 12-03-2002 07:00AM

Originally posted by Keeks

If you can't answer the question, if you can't "define" what a Goth is, then how do you know that the "kiddies' outside the music centre aren't Goths?

Is it a taste in music, clothes or a religion thing? Is it an appreciation of architecture? What makes you a Goth and those kiddies not goths? (I'm assuming you consider yourself to be gothic since your on the offensive over ppl calling those kids goths).

Why does it annoy you so much anyway that they label themselves that?

Did you even read what I had to say?
There was a part of my post that had adressed your statement, if you'd bother to read it at all.

It's not a matter of "I Can't Answer the question", it's a case that I will only answer it as best it can be answered. Or did you not bother with that part of my post either?

And it's not the fact that it annoys me so much, it's just that this is a great topic to have a good old fasioned rant on. At the end of it all, it's no skin off my neck. People are going to go on thinking what they want in general.

I think I have a simpler way of doing things now, I'll try and see if it gets through to anyone.

Lets say for the moment that Goth IS just the music, and nothing else.
With that in mind, then, we shall compare some bands.
Compare Korn, Slipknot, and the likes to Sisters Of Mercy and Fields of The Nephilim.
It's like comparing Britney Spears to some Brazilian jazz, the difference is so monumental.

Now...
Lets say for the moment that Goth is just about the image, and nothing else.
And you look at the general TBMC crowd: Baggy jeans, hoodies, skateboards...
Then you'd take a look at some of the peeps in a goth club or such-like: PVC, Leather, mesh tops, bondage gear.
The only similarity being that it's a lot of black, but that's generaly a rock thing as a whole, might as well say Johnny Cash is goth.
So again, stark contrast.

Now...
Lets say for a moment that Goth is all about attitude, and nothing else.
Looking at the general TBMC crowd, you got the general rebellious kid phase, the 'I hate my parents' stuff.
The general goth attitude is rather hedonistic, out for fun, and generally not really bothered with other people as such.
So, quite different, yes?

Maybe this makes things clearer than my previous post on the subject, and how it's completely different to the whole TBMC scene. Or maybe I make even less sense, who knows?
I can only wait and find out if it makes any kind of jumbled logic to all you out there in boards.ie land.

Keeks · 12-03-2002 07:31AM

Let me get this straight. a goth :

is rather hedonistic, out for fun, and generally not really bothered with other people as such.

Hmmm...sound like those kiddies to me...even if i don't think what they are doning is fun.

but then you have stated earlier that:

I'd just like to make it PEFRECTLY clear, they are NOT Goths.

Hmmm...bit confusing really.

As for addressing my statement, it seems to me that you still haven't. How are those kids not Goths, since its not about music, clothes etc.?

WhiteWashMan · 12-03-2002 09:01AM

im sorry angelwhore, but you havent answered my question.

im not claiming to know what a hippy is, or even what a whitewashman is.

my point is that you casually (and you do this all the time, which is what pisses me off) dismiss other people becuase they dont conform to what you believe.
this person is only wearing a baggy woolly jumper with 2 holes, to be a goth you must have 3 holes minimum.
understand?
and the fact that you say it with such conviction as if youre the lord know-it-all on such subjects, when lets face it, i would call myself a rocker, but i dont have long dirty hair, im not smelly, and i listen to other types of music and i dont headbang every time i hear a heavy riff on the radio.
the point is, im trying to make you see that there is more to people and life than the pigeon-hole catagories that you make up.
if those kids want to call themselves goths, then what exactly is the problem.
seriously?
if you have a problem with someone saying that a bunch of 12 years olds with skateboads are goths, or even worse, the 12 yearolds themselves saying they are goths, then you have far too much time on your hands and you are probably going to be an accountant when you grow up as you are far too analy retentive to lead a full life.
resorting to insults towards me wont make a lick of difference. i dont care what you think of me, and i never have

by the way, you say that its a generalisation about goths, therefore thekids can be covered in that, so youve just undermined your whole argument. youre not a very good debator.

If you want to get down to dumb-assed insulting, why dont YOU R E A D W H AT I ' V E S A I D ! ! !
Stop being a ****ing clot, you idiot.
You really dont seem to be taking straight ****ing answers too well, do you?

Because, as it seems, you're the one not getting anything.

What's that WWM??? You feel a sore-ness in your anal region? Why that's irony, biting you in the ass.

1) i didnt insult you.
2)a clot? hmm, wanna tell me where that one comes from?
3)you havent given any straight answers
4)um, sorry, id this irony? stay at school or pick up a dictionary and learn the meaning of the words you use.
as for irony biting me on the bum, i think you have to make a point first and redirect it back at me, something which you have failed to do.

i know its impossible for a goth to do this on account of having to be miserable, but have a nice day eh?

po0k · 12-03-2002 10:29AM

"Do you want to ride with Batman?

"You ver vearing mein Speedos"

yossarin · 12-03-2002 10:40AM

being a goth seems to require a strict adherence to a set of dogmatic rules - they're not an accecpting bunch are they ?

those poor tbmc kids, all they wanted was a home

, and they got caught up in the politics of keeping the goth strain pure...

p.s. i love this thread - it pops up every 3/6 months and keeps me amused for ages

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 12-03-2002 10:59AM

I'm on the outside, i'm looking in,
i can see through you, see your true colours,
inside you're ugly, ugly like me,
i can see through you, see to the real you,

can you answer WWM whats it like to be a hippy without actually expierencing it?

how can you understand something you havent tried, you might know that you are not going to like it, but you never really know until you take the plunge, if i flame this a bit more, if a bunch of 12 year kids start jumping around to A1 saying that they are rockers, whats the response from rockers?,

The goth fashion sense, its a style/trend not a uniform, an individual ( i love that word)
The goth music, is personal taste not strict DEATH or such,

there is only so much that AngelWhore can tell you before you have to see for your self...

"unfortunatly i can not tell you what the matrix is, you have to expierence it for yourself..."

WhiteWashMan · 12-03-2002 02:08PM

Originally posted by SearrarD

can you answer WWM whats it like to be a hippy without actually expierencing it?

im not making comments about hippies, nor do i claim to be one so stop asking me and try something relevant
there is no point here

Originally posted by SearrarD
how can you understand something you havent tried, you might know that you are not going to like it, but you never really know until you take the plunge, if i flame this a bit more, if a bunch of 12 year kids start jumping around to A1 saying that they are rockers, whats the response from rockers?,

oh god, not the old 'you dont know what its like' argument.
i never said i wanted to be a goth, i was asking what the requirements you need to be a goth since angelwhore seemed to dispell with ease the notion that these kids wanted to be goths
if he can do that he obviously understands what it means or takes or needs to become a goth, and therefore he can tell me the answer to my very simple question which it:
what makes you a goth and not someone else.
its really simple isnt it, and yet you still cant seem to understand a continue to try and pull the conversation off topic.

as for the rockers and the kids, im sure thyd probably say, look over there, a group of skangers listening to A1.

Originally posted by SearrarD

The goth fashion sense, its a style/trend not a uniform, an individual ( i love that word)
The goth music, is personal taste not strict DEATH or such,

ahhhh, so its not strict, so these young kids could consider themselves to be goth?
so what are you arguing about?

Originally posted by SearrarD
there is only so much that AngelWhore can tell you before you have to see for your self...

i dont want to see for myself, and no lets face it, thats a load of rot, its not philosophy, its a lifestyle.
do you think i dont actually know goths or that im locked in a box somewhere?
if you cant explain it, then i suggest you say so and then take your lack of knowledge away. oh and dont make silly sweeping statements (tm) about other peoples lifestyles when you cant give me an explaination.

so, once again, you have no point.

Originally posted by SearrarD
"unfortunatly i can not tell you what the matrix is, you have to expierence it for yourself..."

o goodie, a film quote. do i get a prize?
ipresume this is to try and make me think that being a goth is deep and meaningful and cant be understood by mere plebs such as i? or is it just a load of patronising cods-wollop?

personally i thinks the latter.

so i think so far we have discovered that the question being asked is what is a goth and that the answer is that its about personal taste. and there fore any remarks by anyone saying that someone else is not a 'real' goth are wildly inaccurate becuase apparently its about personal taste, opinion etc etc etc.

or are you just jealous of their eyeliner?

PiE · 12-03-2002 03:16PM

Is it not blatantly obvious that a kid wearing a Korn/Slipknot/Whatever hoodie is NOT a Goth?

DO they even claim to be Goths?

Dr. Loon · 12-03-2002 03:22PM

Originally posted by PiE
Is it not blatantly obvious that a kid wearing a Korn/Slipknot/Whatever hoodie is NOT a Goth?

DO they even claim to be Goths?

Maye they're the new breed of goths, long black hair and white makeup is a signal to me that someone's a Goth style person, that's about it really. I don't think they've some amazing lifestlye or anything, and all Goths that I've met were just really stupid, weird people. I knew one that was trying to grow a goatee, but could only get a dodgy bum fluff tache, so he actually coloured it in with eye-liner

How rediculous is that? Fúckin fool.

po0k · 12-03-2002 03:36PM

Point. and laugh.

I buckin hate those slipknot 'fans'.
Bloody red-knek band if ever there was one.Probably endorsed by the NRA/WASP/NNP or whatever.

Lemming · 12-03-2002 03:44PM

Hmmm .. what I think is the big misunderstanding/problem here is this:

the TBMC crowd are going around and saying "Hey, look at me .. I'm a goth", when in fact they should just get on with BEING whatever the hell it is they want to be.

I have several friends that became goth-oriented in recent years, and they went throguh this phase of every conversation they had with you they had to drop in the use of the word "goth(ic)" jsut to let you know that they were goths. My reaction was always to think to myself "stop trying to advertise what you are and actually spend time being it".

This applies to most things in life, not just who's a goth and who isn't

In short:

People who go around "trying" to be something aren't. You just know that you are something, and go about your business(taking that into account).

Dr. Loon · 12-03-2002 03:52PM

Originally posted by Lemming
In short:

People who go around "trying" to be something aren't. You just know that you are something, and go about your business(taking that into account).

So, what are you?
I personally think there's "normal" people and then freaks, that's about it.

ayatollah · 12-03-2002 03:58PM

Originally posted by SearrarD

strange, i listen to all that goth music, but i dont dress in black?

ayatollah looks to his left sees searrard - wearing black - thinks to him self what a wonderful world!!!!

Lemming · 12-03-2002 04:01PM

Originally posted by Dr. Loon

So, what are you?
I personally think there's "normal" people and then freaks, that's about it.

I'm not entire rocker (although pretty close to), not goth (although I like the colour black), etc. etc.

I am "me" quite simply. I will go and do what I think is good for me (whislt trying not to f*ck others over at the same time of course)

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 12-03-2002 04:12PM

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

im not making comments about hippies, nor do i claim to be one so stop asking me and try something relevant
there is no point here

it was a rehtorical question!

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

what makes you a goth and not someone else.
its really simple isnt it, and yet you still cant seem to understand a continue to try and pull the conversation off topic.

what makes someone a hippy and not some thing else?....can we really define a way of life other than religion...i dont know

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

as for the rockers and the kids, im sure thyd probably say, look over there, a group of skangers listening to A1.

but some rocker might have another opinion, do you speak for the rocker community, are kids listening to A1 thinking that they are rockers, are really jumped up skangers?

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

ahhhh, so its not strict, so these young kids could consider themselves to be goth?
so what are you arguing about?

you wanted to know what the **** a goth was and the answer isnt as clear as text on a page, the best way is to try it yourself!

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

i dont want to see for myself, and no lets face it, thats a load of rot, its not philosophy, its a lifestyle.
do you think i dont actually know goths or that im locked in a box somewhere?
if you cant explain it, then i suggest you say so and then take your lack of knowledge away. oh and dont make silly sweeping statements (tm) about other peoples lifestyles when you cant give me an explaination.

so, once again, you have no point.

Thats the point exactly WWM!, I can give general sweeping statements, because i cant explain it....you got to expierence it, and if you never want to see it for yourself then anything i say will sound confusing, contradictory and gibberish,

you dont know goths, you know a stereotype, and its very hard for me to try and explain to you without drawing up labels and categories

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan

o goodie, a film quote. do i get a prize?
ipresume this is to try and make me think that being a goth is deep and meaningful and cant be understood by mere plebs such as i? or is it just a load of patronising cods-wollop?

again the hippy comes into it, i'm trying to make parrallels to the situation

where religion already has guidelines written out for a way of life, a hippy doesnt, a goth doesnt......
altough we see films and read books about hippys, you even cannot really form an outline of what it means to be a hippy or what it takes to be one, if you are one or was one, this can be applied to goths, rockers.....

think of those baord sweeping statements that Morpheous gave to Neo about what the matrix is, it didn't make much sense to Neo (if any), which Morpheous then said that to see what the matrix is, Neo really had to see for himself.....

ayatollah · 12-03-2002 04:19PM

some goth chicks are fine!!!!!!!!!!!

Dr. Loon · 12-03-2002 04:26PM

Originally posted by ayatollah
some goth chicks are fine!!!!!!!!!!!

Your sig irritates me.
Why is it so long?

SheroN · 12-03-2002 04:31PM

Why do goths dress differently? It's some stupid attention seeking stunt, mostly done by rich kids who didn't get enough attention from daddy. They believe dressing differently makes them "deeper" than the average joe soap in some way. If they worried about other things other than what number Max Factor to wear they'd be a lot better off.

ayatollah · 12-03-2002 04:33PM

i was at this metal gig one time in kilkenny and there was this really fit looking goth type one there damn she was fine - searrard was there aswell he can back me up!!!

WhiteWashMan · 12-03-2002 04:51PM

Originally posted by SearrarD

it was a rehtorical question!

.

i know, but it serves no purpose

Originally posted by SearrarD

what makes someone a hippy and not some thing else?....can we really define a way of life other than religion...i dont know

stop with the hippy already.

Originally posted by SearrarD

but some rocker might have another opinion, do you speak for the rocker community, are kids listening to A1 thinking that they are rockers, are really jumped up skangers?

maybe, but i dont class myself other than a normal person who just isnt into skateboarding or A1.
and it doesnt bother me that people like these (sic) manufactured bands or whatever you want to call them.
christ, if you want toplay with a yoyo and a gerbil thats your own perogative and nothing to do with me. good luck with to!

Originally posted by SearrarD

you wanted to know what the **** a goth was and the answer isnt as clear as text on a page, the best way is to try it yourself!

no, my point was how can someone make a statement about someone they dont know purely because they dont appear to conform to some notion or other.

and if you can define that notion enough that you can tell someone else doesnt conform to it, then you should be able to tell us what it is.
now, is that easy enough to understand.

i dont care about goths, i dont care about rockers, i want to know what this amazing definition of a goth is that allows people to wander about and tell others that they cant join the club.

Originally posted by SearrarD

think of those baord sweeping statements that Morpheous gave to Neo about what the matrix is, it didn't make much sense to Neo (if any), which Morpheous then said that to see what the matrix is, Neo really had to see for himself.....

morpheus didnt see a gand of kids in the square saying how cool it is to be able to see the matrix and then say, hey! you guys, you dont know jack because you havent got x, y, or z!

anyway, i dont know why youre defending angelwhore, hes the one making preposerous statements (again) and not you.
i can see your arguments, but itsnot what im looking for, im looking for a simple answer to a simple question and you are not giving it to me

WhiteWashMan · 12-03-2002 04:54PM

Originally posted by ayatollah
i was at this metal gig one time in kilkenny and there was this really fit looking goth type one there damn she was fine - searrard was there aswell he can back me up!!!

jesus, will you cut your bloody .sig
its really annoying

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 12-03-2002 05:18PM

Originally posted by SearrarD

Thats the point exactly WWM!, I can give general sweeping statements, because i cant explain it....you got to expierence it, and if you never want to see it for yourself then anything i say will sound confusing, contradictory and gibberish,

you dont know goths, you know a stereotype, and its very hard for me to try and explain to you without drawing up labels and categories

i cant explain my expierence as being a goth, as i can explain what the taste of a banana is like?........its down to the ole try and learn
labels and categories never work, never properly define and always cause hassle

WWM, when it comes to goths keep your stereotypes, but dont be judgemental,

if you're not willing to taste it then dont think about it

btw: that whole masscara/eyeliner/make-up thingy doesnt suit me.....lol

Khynareth · 12-03-2002 05:27PM

True, they are some good looking Goth girls... As there are some good looking girls too... Just need to look around a bit more.

Personnally, I've been hanging out it Goth & M etal circles for a while.
As for a definition of a Goth, I think that 'Existentialist Post Romantic' would be a good one. The poem: 'Spleen', from Beaudelaire describes what I mean very well (You can find it there, but it's in French: http://membres.lycos.fr/jdmots/Editorial/anthologie/beaudelaire/beaudelaire.html.)

Now, that's because I have been thinking about it for the past 2 days...

Gothic was 14th century... Goths now don't go around with frily collars at all... (May be one or two). But in all the clubs I went I saw a majority of 'bondage/PVC' people, a few dressed like Dandies (Late 18th early 19th).

So your best bet to define a Goth would be to mix a 19th century Dandy with a S&M person, add to that some good 80s music + some very select Industrial and Electro bands and there you are...

I think at this stage it's more about you listen to Metal, so you're a metal head. You listen to Goth music so you're a Goth. Some will become what you like and adopt the fashion, some will remain 'normal' (I mean an everyday normal that wouldn't stand out in a crowd). Because I don't think anybody is 'normal'. Humans are individuals who are looking for acceptance in the look of others, so they adopt fashions. And then 'society' (As a whole) will try to integrate the 'alternative' fashions to be able to control them (See the washing power for black clothes only)...

I'm ranting again, sorry...

WhiteWashMan · 12-03-2002 05:32PM

Originally posted by SearrarD

i cant explain my expierence as being a goth, as i can explain what the taste of a banana is like?........its down to the ole try and learn
labels and categories never work, never properly define and always cause hassle

WWM, when it comes to goths keep your stereotypes, but dont be judgemental,

if you're not willing to taste it then dont think about it

no, im giving the stereo, ie the jumper, the eyeliner etc for a reason. its because this is what peoeple generally think of when you mention goth.
im not asking for your experience as a goth. im not going to give you my experinces of a single parent family growing up in complete poverty. if you werent in the position you wouldnt understand.
and neither have i been judgemental about any type of person.

so can we get of the whole subject of experince etc. its not about experience. its not about a way of life. its not even about goths for gods sake!

its about angelwhore amking stupid statements as usual, and im picking up on it.
so therefore i am asking him the above things for the above reasons which im not going 5o go through again, and as usual he wont answer

now that ive spelt it out entirely in alphabet form, do yyou understand what i am saying, or the point i am trying to make.
i never said anything bad or good or otherwise about goths, i only ever asked what makes a goth a goth because id like to understand why angelwhore would fit some people into a catagory but not others because he doesnt like the music they listen to or the clothes they wear.

this, now, should be the end of our discussion, however im still waiting for this fantastic definition of a goth

Mickah · 12-03-2002 05:52PM

I reckon we should get the good, clean looking, baggy-trouser, Sum41 listening Skate Boarder kids that 360 it just up the road outside the Central Bank to go down to the Music Center and kick the **** out of the "goth" brats with their boards.

Yeah! Gangland style except with squeaky voices.

ykt0di9url7bc3 · 12-03-2002 05:57PM

lol....BOOKA

Are Goths jumped-up Skangers?

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