Dublin Corporation Waste Charges

Boston · 16-02-2002 10:26pm

Rumor has it, though it has to be said even some of the more senior members and shock horror moderators have been known to digress to muppetry and extremely incoherent posts (shrug).

is this somekind of attack on me. I like you, but dont try to annoy me

Aspro · 17-02-2002 5:26pm

Originally posted by Typedef
So it's a kind of catch 22 or a self fulfilling prophecy, I say if you pay your bin tax the government will be more inclined to introduce recycling on a wide scale

The fact of the matter is that the government don't have any initiatives towards a proper recycling programme. They are just trying to foist another double tax on PAYE workers as a first step towards the privatisation of the service. The only alternative they have come up with is incineration, which is known to release carcinogenic dioxins into the air and poison us.

This agenda of privatisation of public services is part of the GATS agreement (General Agreement on Trade and Services) brokered at the WTO summits of the last few years. The privatisation agenda encompasses over 160 services' sectors including telecoms, transport, distribution, postal services, real estate, insurance, construction, environment, tourism and entertainment.

"Suspicion is growing that national governments are no longer in the driving seat-that most crucial decisions on trade and economic policy are being made in the boardrooms of multinational corporations and round the table at the World Trade Organisation"
New Scientist Editorial June 9th 2001

Anywhere that the tax has been implemented around the country has seen it rise dramatically over a period of a few years. In Sligo the annual charge is over €500 p.a. whereas in Dublin it has started at €190. See the pattern?

Of the 42 million tonnes of waste produced annually in Ireland, three quarters of it is produced by farmers, the other 20% by big business and only 5% by domestic householders, so why should the ordinary PAYE worker have to pay on the double for others pollution - especially when we don't have a choice in the waste that is generated.

Next time you go to the shop look at the amount of packaging that all of your goods comes in - wrappers inside boxes inside packets.........all so the producers can compete with each other for your money.

Water, refuse collection, sewage, health, education, transport etc. are all basic services that should be covered by the money we have payed out in taxes. If there was any sort of proper recycling initiatives implemented people would be more than willing to comply, but I for one am not going to pay out any more tax just so some private company can take over a few years down the line, charge me through the roof and dump it all in some superdump up the mountains.

Recycling - YES, Double Taxation - NO

Boston · 17-02-2002 5:51pm

hey, cool me, and my whole area have been summond to court, well they can shove that were the sun dont shine.

Typedef · 17-02-2002 6:47pm

Far be it for me to try and annoy you but, I told you so!

Boston · 17-02-2002 6:53pm

no i told you so, what are they goign to do, arrest me.
id actually welcome them to try

Typedef · 17-02-2002 7:04pm

Boston I know you don't have much time for the environment, but seriously you can't be a vigilante with the Garda because you refuse to pay you bin tax!

Boston · 17-02-2002 7:15pm

this has nothign to do with the envoirment, my area isnt getting bins, it the same collection we allways had

Typedef · 17-02-2002 7:31pm

Boston if you don't have a bin say so in the future!

Boston · 17-02-2002 7:45pm

yea i dont, why what difference does it make, they arnt giving us bin at all ever. they wont work in my area. so what exactly is the fee all in aid of.

Typedef · 17-02-2002 7:53pm

No one least of all me would try to say that people who can't avail of the recycling scheme should have to pay for recycling somewhere else! I would be shocked to find out that the government was attempting to extract a recycle tax from people who aren't actually recycling, sort of like making cyclists pay for aircraft insurance!

Still if you say that is what is happening I have no evidence to suggest you are making it up. However if you live in a bin area and are simply refusing to use it then that is your problem else don't pay for a service you can't and aren't supposed to avail of.

The Sweeper · 19-02-2002 9:25am

Originally posted by pugwall
NeRb666 & Minesajackdaniels
Its muppets the same attitude to you two that has this country in the dire state that it is in. The streets of Dublin, the whole country for that matter are disgraceful.
I think thatanyone who doesn't pay the charges should be imprisoned and black listed for credit in the future due to their selfish attitudes. They create the rubbish through their own consumption and should have to pay to have it taken away.

:mad:

Dearie me, I leave boards.ie alone for a couple of days to go on a drinking binge, and I get back to find little me being called that most savage of insults, a muppet, just because I voiced a personal opinion. The beauty of the open forum debate, eh?

Pugwall, my point is that I refuse to pay for a badly administered, unevenly provided, unregulated service. I don't think that's unreasonable. If you actually read my post, you'd see that part of my problem was that the property letting company that looked after the area I lived in had contacted the council on my behalf to refuse the green recycling bin and the brown compost bin because they didn't think there was room in the driveway to fit them.

Yet another case of someone putting words in my mouth.

<sighs>

Mailman · 19-02-2002 2:37pm

Penalise the public for producing waste rather than handling the issue of waste properly from cradle to grave.
You never hear about the 3 Rs because our waste management policy is a joke.
All the public can do, all they can be expected to do is reduce, re-use and recycle and god knows things aren't made easy for them here in Ireland.

Where is my bio-waste bin? That hasn't arrived yet. The landfills are filling up with grass clippings and the like that shouldn't be going in to them.

Where is our green point system. Manufacturers ship product in environmentally unfriendly packaging because they know they don't have to pay for it to be recycled.

I work in a company that ships product into Europe. Having to pay for green point really makes you think about your packaging and it's costed in to the product but only for countries where you know you actually have an exposure.
But the only countries we worry about are the ones that have implemented a strong green point system i.e. Germany.

Where are the waste to energy plants that are needed to cope with the waste we produce?
We're building peat fired plants instead just so that there is employment in unemployment blackspots in the midlands and bugger the cost to the nation as a whole.

Advice to those who don't like bin charges:
Don't pay if you don't want - At present local authorities are obligied to collect your rubbish irrespective of whether you pay or not just don't litter.
Do use your green bin where ever possible - there is no charge associated with green bin collections.
If you do decide to pay then make sure you collect tax relief on your bin charges as you are entitled to it.

As you are only going to be charged for each grey bin you leave out (something like €5 per tag) - flattening boxes, squashing tetra packs means that you'll be able to go an extra week without having to leave your rubbish bin at the gate.

Victor · 20-02-2002 1:21am

Boston and gurramok: stop trolling.

Originally posted by gurramok
err, u muppet, u seem to have a short memory, paye/vat and nearly every other tax rate rocketed in the 80s & 90s to pay for refuse/water charges in areas where there was no charges implemented.

And where do you back this statemtn up? Go read the reports on www.revenue.ie, they will have a set of historical rates of tax. Invariable taxes have come down.

Originally posted by Boston
I dont care ill start dumping on public ground rather then pay this fee, its a matter of principle.

So you will have to pay more for someone to clean it up?

Originally posted by Boston
do you not feel like a sheep, 'here you go spend your time sorting through your rubbish into nice bins, take on board the extra hassel of managing 3 bins at once, and we will only charge you 70 pounds a year, forgot the euro thats 150 euro a year, o i forgot vat is going up 1% thats 200 euro a year.

There is no VAT on local authority services.

Victor · 20-02-2002 1:30am

Originally posted by Tazz T
Haven't other countries got recycling schemes that actually make a profit? Like making methane gas at landfill sites. recycling paper and other materials and selling them on to companies to use again. Now, a sensible government would already have the money to invest in such 'green' policies without having to resort to an additional tax.

Go look at: http://scripts.ireland.com/search/highlight.plx?TextRes=ESB&Path=/newspaper/ireland/2002/0219/pf833618571hmesb.html There has been a similar scheme in Cork (Kinsale Road) for about 10 years or more.

Originally posted by Boston
yea i dont, why what difference does it make, they arnt giving us bin at all ever. they wont work in my area. so what exactly is the fee all in aid of.

What 'type' of area do you live in? Why won't it work in your area?

Victor · 20-02-2002 1:38am

Originally posted by gurramok
whose fault was it that public finances were so bad back then?
u guessed it, mismanagement by successive govts, not the taxpayer!

If IIRC CJH reduce car tax to £5 in 1979 (among other changes) in an effort to bribe the election. It worked. Our parents (the taxpayers of the day) have a lot to answer for.

Originally posted by gurramok
as always when things go bad, the taxpayer picks up the tab.

You have some secret source of money?

Originally posted by gurramok
This tax has nothing to do with increasing recyling, it is a tax on householders, the ones who actually pollute the least.

They also pay the least. The commercial rate for collecting 2 bags of rubbish a week is about twice the domestic charge.

Originally posted by gurramok
This tax has nothing to do with increasing recyling, it is a tax on householders, the ones who actually pollute the least.
btw, on a side note...there seems to be always €millions available for the bertie bowl, gaa in croke park, tribunals among others not to mention the €12,000 rise awarded to tds not so long ago !

None of which comes out of Dublin Corp. coffers.

Originally posted by gurramok
...my point, the money is there for proper waste management already from normal tax collection without having to resort to addiional taxes.

Yes and this is a redistribution of this tax from direct taxation to user charges. No one is 'profiteering' from this measure.

Originally posted by Aspro
Anywhere that the tax has been implemented around the country has seen it rise dramatically over a period of a few years. In Sligo the annual charge is over €500 p.a. whereas in Dublin it has started at €190. See the pattern?

Yes I see the pattern, my bill is only £65 (€82.53), I see a pattern of mis-information.

Victor · 20-02-2002 2:07am

Originally posted by Typedef
I would be shocked to find out that the government was attempting to extract a recycle tax from people who aren't actually recycling, sort of like making cyclists pay for aircraft insurance!

But we do! (but not bicycle insurance)

Originally posted by Mailman
Where is our green point system. Manufacturers ship product in environmentally unfriendly packaging because they know they don't have to pay for it to be recycled.

They do. If you produce more than a certain amount of waste per year, you have to re-cycle it. Hence a lot of companies are members of Repak.

Originally posted by Mailman
At present local authorities are obligied to collect your rubbish irrespective of whether you pay or not just don't litter.

Only domestic refuse.

Originally posted by Mailman
If you do decide to pay then make sure you collect tax relief on your bin charges as you are entitled to it.

This is only available if you pay on time.

Aspro · 20-02-2002 9:43am

Originally posted by Victor
Yes I see the pattern, my bill is only £65 (€82.53), I see a pattern of mis-information.

It started in Dublin (Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Co.Co.) at £150 (€190). You may be paying a lower rate where you live but you're guaranteed to be paying more next year, so don't accuse me of misinforming people. I been invoved in the campaign against this unjust tax since it was implemented and have gotten all the figures from the horse's mouth.

They also pay the least. The commercial rate for collecting 2 bags of rubbish a week is about twice the domestic charge.

Maybe that's something to do with the pathetically low corporation tax figure of 10%.

Householders don't object to paying for a refuse collection service - they just object to paying for it twice.

Mailman · 20-02-2002 4:05pm

Repak doesn't give my company's product managers restless nights - Der Grune Punkt does.
The green dot should be extended throughout the community rather than setting up individual recycling authorities in each country.

Only manufacturers selling large quantities of product in Ireland have to worry about their waste as they are the only ones who would have to worry about being prosecuted. There are large quantities of companies selling small quantities of product in Ireland and other small territories. These companies would be covered by a Euro wide green point system.

You only need one CE mark.

Hobbes · 20-02-2002 7:41pm

I'm curious how the system in Finglas will work.

Your supposed to put a paper tag on your bin to say you paid but what's to stop the next door neighbour nicking the tag or throwing thier trash in your bin?

Boston · 20-02-2002 7:44pm

[off topic tripe/abuse > /dev/null]

Now now, be nice to Victor

Typedef · 20-02-2002 8:33pm

Originally posted by Mailman
Repak doesn't give my company's product managers restless nights - Der Grune Punkt does.
The green dot should be extended throughout the community rather than setting up individual recycling authorities in each country.

Only manufacturers selling large quantities of product in Ireland have to worry about their waste as they are the only ones who would have to worry about being prosecuted. There are large quantities of companies selling small quantities of product in Ireland and other small territories. These companies would be covered by a Euro wide green point system.

You only need one CE mark.

Interesting.

For the uninitiated Der Grune Punkt http://www.gruener-punkt.de/en/frames.php3?choice1=ds . To be fair the Duales system in Germany is a whole lot more stringent than the system that operates in the Republic of Ireland. If ever there were evidence needed that environmentalism can co-exist within a large economy and not (by act of god) destroy that economy.

Today, all consumers in the Federal Republic of Germany have access to containers for the collection of post-consumer sales packaging marked with the Green Dot. At regular intervals, the containers are picked up by the waste management partners of Duales System Deutschland AG and transported to the sorting plants.

So unless I have missed the crux of what this system does all packaging that comes into the homes of consumers must be recycled by this semi-state body.

The difference between the Federal Republic of Germany and the Republic of Ireland in this respect must be highlighted.
http://www.studentxpress.ie/features/rubbish.html

Currently, 92% of commercial and household rubbish in Ireland goes to landfills, just 8% is recovered. Some of this waste consists of glass, plastic and paper, items that are easily recycled. In 1998 just 14.7% of paper waste, 30% of plastic and less than 5% of plastic was recovered. Along with Great Britain, we have the worst record in Europe for recycling or recovery of waste

Really this is an utter disgrace even by the feeble standards of the European Union for the recycling of commercial packaging Ireland lags far, far behind our Europen neighbours in this respect.

http://www.repak.ie/legislation.html
These Regulations were designed to promote the recovery and recycling of packaging waste and specifically to achieve targets set by Directive 94/62/EC. These targets are:

* 25% recovery rate to be achieved by 1st July 2001;
* Between 50% and 60% (by weight) of packaging waste should be recovered in Ireland by December 2005; and
* Within the general target between 25% and 45% (by weight) of the total amount of packaging materials contained in packaging waste will be recycled, with a minimum of 15% (by weight) for each packaging material.

I would assume that the govnerment of this country would never actually embark on such a tangent of legislative usefullness and I understand that small countries must be a business friendly as possible, yes it would be nice if the government could require business to participate in the cost of recycling and I would welcome it as it would mean that the ordinary tax payer would not have to incur the cost. However that is not a call to arms for non-tax paying vigilantism, you still have to pay your taxes end of story, but perhaps within our own beginnings and feeble grumblings towards a society where recycling is the norm business could actually take responsibility for cleaning up it's own act.

Victor · 22-02-2002 10:23am

Originally posted by Aspro
It started in Dublin (Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Co.Co.) at £150 (€190). You may be paying a lower rate where you live but you're guaranteed to be paying more next year, so don't accuse me of misinforming people.....

I just happened to notice that the topic is "Dublin Corporation Waste Charges"

Aspro · 28-02-2002 10:58am

Originally posted by Victor
I just happened to notice that the topic is "Dublin Corporation Waste Charges"

But as you know the issue is broader than the confines of Dublin Corporation. The thread starter just happens to live there.

Victor · 28-02-2002 5:20pm

So, I eventually got through to Dublin Corporation's helpline (they ban mobiles from the freephone number and I don't have a house phone). They say they won't be providing a re-cycling service to apartments at all (despite apartments being the cheapest place to do it, 1 collection per 20 households instead of 1 per household).

I've told them (a) I can't afford it (flatmate hasn't been paying the rent and I've no income) and (b) the only way to make them provide the service is to withold payment.

The telephonist accepted my reasoning, but couldn't agree with me (for fear of being fired).

pugwall · 10-04-2002 10:13am

Gurramok say's

as i said b4, the point of refusing to pay this double tax is not my selfishness, but the responsibility of gov/corpo to use the taxes that i pay already and raised too often(too many taxes to list) to implement a waste strategy modelled on other countries. Now the gov is being forced to do so by the EU to implement more re-cycling, the sight and use of the recycling bins are welcome in my view, the conflict arises of who should pay for it, in this case the taxpayer is being forced(not asked) to pay for services already paid for.

As far as I know, the charges are tax deductable.
Therefore it doesn't count as double taxation.

Mailman · 10-04-2002 1:17pm

The payments are tax deductible so your effective tax free allowance is increased but you are still paying over cold hard cash.
All that changes is that you get some tax relief at your standard (or marginal)?? rate of taxation so if you pay €200 and your tax rate is 20% then you are still €160 poorer than if the charge wasn't there.

If I'm right isn't this tax unjust to the poorest sections of society whos' marginal rate of taxation is 20%, rather than 42%. On a €200 Euro annual rubbish bill a poor person effectively pays €160 while a rich person pays €116.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that especially the thing about marginal or standard rate.

On another point, why hasn't the green movement seized this opportunity to get more rubbish recycled. The amount of stuff that actually is allowed to go into the green wheelie bin is pitiful and one collection every month just isn't enough.
As long as there is no bio-bin and the green bin doesn't get collected regularly and doesn't take the recylclable rubbish that we produce refusing to pay for tags seems fair.
It's not unreasonable that the green bin should take heavy cardboard and PET bottles - is it.
For the foreseeable future all this stuff that shouldn't be going to landfill is still going to landfill.
Now is an ideal opportunity to slow the speed at which our dumps are being filled.

I'd be surprised if more than 30% of the average households waste is allowed to go into the green wheelie bin at present so any claims that your local authority makes that it's an avoidable charge are undermined.

Aspro · 10-04-2002 1:30pm

As far as I know, the charges are tax deductable. Therefore it doesn't count as double taxation.

Tax relief is given the standard rate of taxation, therefore for instance, you pay €190 bin tax and you only get €38 back.

http://www.revenue.ie

In addition to this you will have to have paid up any arrears for the water charges (which were successfully defeated in 1996).
So it's hardly worth your while, unless you believe in double taxation and are content to have more and more of your hard-earned money taken from you by the government just so a private contractor can take over from the council or corporation and charge you through the nose for a downgraded service.

Where is the investment in recycling?
Why are supermarkets not being compelled to cut down on packaging?
Why have materials collected by certain firms for recycling just ended up in landfill with the rest of the rubbish?

Polluter pays? Householders are the waste receivers, not the waste producers.

Victor · 10-04-2002 10:02pm

Dublin Corporation charge has been fixed at last year's figure.

Originally posted by Mailman
All that changes is that you get some tax relief at your standard (or marginal)?? rate of taxation so if you pay €200 and your tax rate is 20% then you are still €160 poorer than if the charge wasn't there.

If I'm right isn't this tax unjust to the poorest sections of society whos' marginal rate of taxation is 20%, rather than 42%. On a €200 Euro annual rubbish bill a poor person effectively pays €160 while a rich person pays €116.

People dependant on social welfare can get a waiver. People on low incomes can have their cases examined.

Mailman · 11-04-2002 9:05am

If you are on minimum wage and outside the tax net then you obviously can't get tax back so you'll be paying €200 or whatever whereas wealthier people effectively pay €160. If you are on a low wage then you have to demean yourself by pleading poverty and actively pursue your co. co. to have the charge set aside.
What's more the Fingal Co. Co leaflet on the tagging system I received through the door mentioned nothing about these exemptions and special arrangements so they don't seem to be falling over themselves to save poor people money.

The more I look at this the more unfair it seems.

No one has commented on how little actually is allowed go into the green bin.

bonkey · 11-04-2002 10:03am

Originally posted by Mailman
If you are on a low wage then you have to demean yourself by pleading poverty.

This is something I've heard time and time again - that people are demeaning themselves by having to claim poverty.

Why is it demeaning? Either you're on a low wage, or you're not - either you can afford it or you cant. "Claiming poverty" when you are impoverished is not demeaning, its honesty.

What would be a better solution? That the government keeps track of your earnings, and sends information to the council about the people who are too poor to pay? You think this is somehow less demeaning - that the council will excuse you from paying because they government have told them you are too poor?

Getting back to the case at hand :

1) You have no right to refuse to pay for a service provided by the government- or local-council if you avail of that service, even if it is poorly run. In the case of people who do not have bins - you are correct in that you cannot be charged for a service you are not receiving, and you have a right to refuse payment. However, if you are receiving as much as an intermittent or poorly managed service, and you use it you are obliged to pay for it. Self-righteousness and a belief that you can personally decide which laws apply to you do not change this. Yes, the odds are that you will never get brought to court on it, but please remember this the next time that you criticise a politician for taking a backhander, or claim the government should nail people for dodging taxes - you are doing the exact same thing as them - arbitrarily deciding that a law you dont like shouldnt apply to you.

2) Comments like "I would dump in public rather than pay this tax" are completely idiotic. Would you support my right to dump anything I feel like on your doorstep? If you would even dream of complaining about me doing this, then I think you should realise the idiocy of what you are suggesting.

3) If you think recycling is only being introduced because of "pressure from the EU" then you are beyond hope. Recycling is being introduced because recycling is necessary for our future and that of our descendants. Maybe you dont care about that, but a lot of the world does.

4) "Not wanting" the bins has nothing to do with it. Who said you have a choice?

5) "The effort" of sorting rubbish is a myth. Other than doing something like tidying a messy bedroom, you generally will have no more than a large handful of rubbish at any one time. How hard can it be?

I live in Switzerland. In my flat we manage to do the following :

Put paper & card aside for burning (wood-heated old flat) or recycling. No treated (shiny) gets burned, as its not very clean. All other paper products get put in a stack for recycling.

All biological matter gets put on a compost heap (we dont have bio-bins over here yet).

All glass, tins, and PET containers get cleaned, stored, and recycled in the local bottle-banks.

All batteries get put in a drawer and dumped in a shop's recycling facility every 6 months or so.

Total cost in extra effort - maybe 5 minutes a day on average. Total reduction in "dumped" waste - about 80%.

If you cant save 5 minutes out of your day to cut your dumping by that amount, then you've got a serious problem.

jc

Mailman · 11-04-2002 11:47am

Your holier than thou attitude and lack of compassion for the most needy sections of society isn't helping your argument you know but then you are\were a resident of Switzerland so I suppose that's where that comes from.

There are no guarantees that the Co.Co. will waive charges for those on the lowest wage and that definitely isn't fair.

A large proportion of the public believe that their waste disposal service was already being paid for through normal taxation which is supported by the fact that they never had to pay for refuse collection before and right or wrong it can't be argued with - they didn't have to pay before and were good citizens who paid their taxes before this was introduced, now they're beign tarred as anti-social criminals.

This is not a service, it is a tax which is supposedly avoidable and designed to encourage recycling but people can't recycle.
Look at it this way -It cost me(one, first person singular, whatever) €5 per wheelie bin to keep sending rubbish to landfill or it costs me time, effort and space(I may not have much of any of these) to store up all the recyclable stuff that isn't accepted for the green bin. Hmmm, I'll just keep throwing stuff into the grey bin. It's a logical solution but you don't see the world getting any cleaner so what do you do, get the stick out and tax more €10 per wheelie bin, €15 per wheelie bin or get the carrot out by making it easier for people to throw stuff into the green bin.

No point jumping up and down throwing a tantrum because people don't share your beliefs. People always follow the line of least resistance so if you make things easy for them then they will recycle.
The charges were introduced as a means to an end and have to be viewed as such - they don't achieve their objective so they shouldn't be implemented. If an initiative isn't supported by the mass public it is doomed to failure.

What the f**k are you doing with batteries. Why aren't you using rechargables? I don't buy ordinary batteries anymore because it's cheaper to use rechargables and environmentally friendly.
How many people in the inner city have access to a compost heap.
A true green wouldn't want to burn paper - it's a sin. You re-use first, if that not possible you try to recycle and then as a last resort send to landfill or burn.
Why aren't you using electricity to heat your home - it's more environmentally friendly - you should be buying green electricity from the likes of Eirtricity rather than releasing more Carbon Dioxide into the atmosphere. How would you like if a nice expensive tax was introduced on Flats with solid fuel heating. It's a fairer tax than the bin charge.
Bonkey, in your own way, you pollute too but your not being charged for the pollution you produce. Is that fair?

Typedef · 11-04-2002 12:28pm

call recurse
Recurse:
Rules are this.

No personal attacks, nothing I find offensive.

GOTO Recurse.

Girls keep it clean or get slapped by me.
Love Typedef.

bonkey · 11-04-2002 2:40pm

Originally posted by Mailman
Your holier than thou attitude and lack of compassion for the most needy sections of society isn't helping your argument you know but then you are\were a resident of Switzerland so I suppose that's where that comes from.

I'll tell you what - I wont insult their pride. Lets not exempt anyone from the tax, and not make it tax-deductable. Now, everyone is treated equally, and you should be happy - noone is being denegrated or demeaned. Jesus - give someone a break, and they feel insulted because they have to admit to the basic truth?

A large proportion of the public believe that their waste disposal service was already being paid for through normal taxation which is supported by the fact that they never had to pay for refuse collection before and right or wrong it can't be argued with

I'm pretty sure that you wont accept the reverse argument - that we shouldnt fix something because its always been broken, or we shouldnt remove any tax which always has always been paid up to now. The incorrect assumptions of the public do not change the facts.

they didn't have to pay before and were good citizens who paid their taxes before this was introduced, now they're beign tarred as anti-social criminals.

If you're not paying a tax when you should be, for little better reason than "I dont want to", and the tax in question is designed to improve the standards of society in general, then yes - you are an anti-social criminal.

This is not a service, it is a tax which is supposedly avoidable and designed to encourage recycling but people can't recycle.

You seem to have missed the bit where I said "if you use the service, you must pay for it". If you dont use the service, you cant be charged for it. You may have to be able to prove why the service is not feasible for you, but I have no issue with that. My problem is people wanting to use parts of the service, but refusing to pay because the overall service is flawed.

I agree that the limitations on the current green bins are too restrictive, but this is not the issue. The issue is that if you want to use the refuse-collection service, you are obliged to pay for it. If the local council are massively overcharging, then you can be pretty sure a private company will see a way to making a huge profit. However, in the absence of private companies, you can pretty safely assume that the cost being passed to you is reasonable.

what do you do, get the stick out and tax more €10 per wheelie bin, €15 per wheelie bin or get the carrot out by making it easier for people to throw stuff into the green bin.

You're the one talking about still dumping in the grey bin because of the increased time and effort (ignoring the space question). Exactly how can can it be made easier, short of hiring someone to throw out your rubbish for you?

I do all this seperation. I know it costs me SFA space, and SFA time, but thats not an incentivbe to you. Therefore, the only avenue left is the financial incentive path. Typically, incentives like recyclable batteries, low-wattage flourescent bulbs, etc, are all cheaper, but people dont use them much. Ergo, the surest way of encouraging it is to make the existing practices more expensive.

People always follow the line of least resistance so if you make things easy for them then they will recycle.

The line of least resistance is to continue your existing habits, unless given an incentive to change. The only ways to do this are to educate the country about recycling, or to place financial costs in place of their existing approaches.

Given that one of these is a long-term issue (education) and the other is immediate in its effect, is it any wonder we see the latter having an effect before the former.

The charges were introduced as a means to an end and have to be viewed as such - they don't achieve their objective so they shouldn't be implemented. If an initiative isn't supported by the mass public it is doomed to failure.

Have you lodged a formal complain with your local council, pointing out the flaws in the system, and explaining your objections to it, or is this just more justification for massive amounts of people ignoring the law because they dont like it?

I accept that there are many justifiable reasons to be unhappy with the current situation, but I thought I made that pretty clear - if you use a service, the provider has a legal right to charge you for it, whether or not it was free last week, or was thought to have been paid for by some other means. If you dont use the service, or it si not being supplied to you, then dont pay.

Policy has to start somewhere. You cant have an overnight solution to all the problems, and it takes time for any disruptive change to start working acceptably. Shooting it down before this happens is ludicrous. I mean - what if people insisted the hill near the station be reopened to traffic because the disruption it causes is just stupid. The disruption to traffic is part of a long-term plan to improve the situation. The LUAS wont be here for years, but already we have closed roads. Similarly, we should accept that the implementation of a greener policy will be incremental, and will take time. Complaining that step 1 isnt a full solution is a bit pointless.

What the f**k are you doing with batteries. Why aren't you using rechargables? I don't buy ordinary batteries anymore because it's cheaper to use rechargables and environmentally friendly.

Its not cheaper over here, and in fact, the materials from all properly disposed batteries are recycled over here - or safely and cleanly disposed. So I'm taking the cheaper option, which is still ecologically friendly.

AFAIk, the rubbish collection service even do spot-checks on bags for dumping of prohibited materials, and if they find anything will search the bag for anything which lets them know what house it came from. Then they nail you hard for it.

How many people in the inner city have access to a compost heap.

I never claimed they did - but last time I checked, the new bin policy was supposed to include a "biological waste" bin, which is the same idea.

A true green wouldn't want to burn paper - it's a sin. You re-use first, if that not possible you try to recycle and then as a last resort send to landfill or burn.
Why aren't you using electricity to heat your home - it's more environmentally friendly

Because I live in a 250-year old farmhouse, which pyhsically cannot be restructured in order to incorporate central heating. Ergo, I need to wood heat. Most of the material burned is clean-burn, but you still need to start the fire.

Personally, I'd love to move, but my girlfriend has lived here for 10 years (when it was all she could afford) and doesnt want to move now, until we choose to move back to Ireland when she's finished her studies.

you should be buying green electricity from the likes of Eirtricity rather than releasing more Carbon Dioxide into the atmosphere.

Actually, our local townland allows us the option of buying green or "normal" electricity, or any mix of the both, depending on how much we are willing to pay per unit. So, I have that option, and given that I havent even mentioned what option I'm taking, I'm amazed you're lecturing me about what I should be doing.

How would you like if a nice expensive tax was introduced on Flats with solid fuel heating. It's a fairer tax than the bin charge.

Actually, all combustible products over here (wood, clean-burn, coal, etc) are already given a source-tax for this, so I'm already paying that. I dont complain - I think its perfectly reasonable to charge me for it.

Also, because I'm living in one of the (approx) 1% of housing still even capable of producing thermal emissions, I dont think Switzerland as a nation is too shoddy in this area. I would guess that more coal is burned in Dublin on a daily average by consumers than in the entire country here, at a domestic level. We pay our solid-fuel tax, do you?

Bonkey, in your own way, you pollute too but your not being charged for the pollution you produce. Is that fair?

You assume I'm not being charged for it. This is not my concern, because I know what I am and am not being charged for - which you are simply making blind assumptions about to try and goad me.

Switzerland is one of the most ecologically conscious nations I've seen, surpassing the Germans in many areas, and not lagging far behind them in most others. For example, recycling of aluminium cans is estimated to be running somewhere in excess of 90%, and rising slowly.

All recycling costs are split between producer and consumer. For example, if I want to get rid of an electrical appliance, I can drop it back to any store, who charge me a certain fee per item. They, in turn, must then dispose/recycle the item in accordance with very specific rules.

Before you have another lash out at me, I would suggest you stop making blind assumptions about my lifestyle, and the costs and taxes I pay. I have lived in Ireland for most of my life, I am not making assumptions about the state of affairs there. Can you say the same about Switzerland?

jc

Mailman · 12-04-2002 9:39am

I'll try to keep this short and cover your points as quickly as possible as I've been told people don't like long posts round here.

You use normal batteries instead of rechargables
You use paper(recyclable) in a fire instead of tinder
You use Solid Fuel Heating instead of Electric(green electric storage heating preferably) central heating.
therefore
You are not in a position to criticise others for objecting to refuse charges as you aren't whiter than white yourself.

As there was a cost associated with collecting Rubbish before refuse charges were introduced it would be fair to say that rubbish collection was being paid for by our Tax money. As this new charge has been introduced and no statement has been made to say that our conventional taxes will be lowered next year as we no longer need to pay for refuse collection from taxes it is clear that we are being taxed doubly(or 1.8X) on our waste.

Switzerland isn't whiter than white either. The have a number of nuclear power plants and are home to some of the biggest nastiest chemical and pharmaceutical companies in the world.

As far as I know Conventional coal isn't available in Dublin as it is banned.

Two members of the Socialist party are currently pursuing the refuse charge issue through the courts and judgement won't be returned until next month so at present it is all very questionable as to whether refuse charges are legal or not.

The charges were only introduced because central government treathened to abolish local government if the charge wasn't introduced.

There is no need to educate the public. They are able to seperate rubbish into two bins and all they need is to be advised as to what extra items can be thrown into the green bin.

There are no bio bins distributed in my local authority area at present but the charge has been introduced never the less.

If you want to make the world a cleaner place then campaign to improve the green bin service rather than chastising people for objecting to refuse bin charges.

bonkey · 13-04-2002 5:54pm

Originally posted by Mailman
You are not in a position to criticise others for objecting to refuse charges as you aren't whiter than white yourself.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didnt realise that only saints were allowed to offer criticism.

Oh - hold on. You're criticising me - but you're not perfect either. How come you're in a position to criticise and I'm not?

As there was a cost associated with collecting Rubbish before refuse charges were introduced it would be fair to say that rubbish collection was being paid for by our Tax money. As this new charge has been introduced and no statement has been made to say that our conventional taxes will be lowered next year as we no longer need to pay for refuse collection from taxes it is clear that we are being taxed doubly(or 1.8X) on our waste.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the money you were already contrbuting was simply not enough to pay for the cost of running the service? You are not being taxed on your waste - you are being charged for the provision of a service.

Switzerland isn't whiter than white either. The have a number of nuclear power plants and are home to some of the biggest nastiest chemical and pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Switzerland has a ban on any further nuclear stations being built, and is actively persuing studies to find clean alternatives so it can decomission its existing stations.

As for the chemical companies....the companies may be Swiss, but any plants which are inside Switzerland are not highly pollutant - there are very stringent emissions controls over here. What they do in other countries has nothing to do with Switzerland as a nation.

The charges were only introduced because central government treathened to abolish local government if the charge wasn't introduced.

Thats one way of spinning what happened. Yes.

There is no need to educate the public. They are able to seperate rubbish into two bins and all they need is to be advised as to what extra items can be thrown into the green bin.

This coming from the man who earlier posted this in answer to my claims that seperation was not a big deal :

It cost me(one, first person singular, whatever) €5 per wheelie bin to keep sending rubbish to landfill or it costs me time, effort and space(I may not have much of any of these) to store up all the recyclable stuff that isn't accepted for the green bin. Hmmm, I'll just keep throwing stuff into the grey bin.

So - which is it mailman? You seem to be arguing how easy it is now, when earlier you were arguing that it was too much effort. Maybe if you stopped just trying to disagree with everything I say, you might be able to put forward a more coherent argument.

If you want to make the world a cleaner place then campaign to improve the green bin service rather than chastising people for objecting to refuse bin charges.

I wasnt aware that they were mutually exclusive activities. Now that you've informed me about it, I'll have to consider which one I'll have to stop doing.

jc

Mailman · 15-04-2002 1:08pm

Getting biblical, you are not without sin but you are throwing stones at others so I'm pointing out you are not exactly Mr. Green 2002 yourself, dingbat! -That's my point.

Threat of abolition of County Councils is not 'Spin'.

The costs of the tags isn't based on the cost of providing the service it is based on a determination of the level which incentivises conformance in the same way that a 15 cent bag tax doesn't bear any relation to the cost of recycling a plastic bag.

Your retort about seperation of waste really makes no sense.

Switzerland as a nation is blameless with regard to it's chemical companies in the same way as Afghanistan as a nation is blameless with regard to the Heroin that is produced within it's borders.

As to your dilemma as to whether to chasitise people or actively promote recycling I'd suggest the latter and I'd venture to suggest that you can start by not buying anymore conventional batteries. Once you've started using rechargables you'll wonder why you ever used ordinary ones before.

bonkey · 15-04-2002 1:53pm

Originally posted by Mailman
Your retort about seperation of waste really makes no sense.

What? Pointing out that in one post you say its easy, and in another you say its too much effort makes no sense? I would have thought it was your contradictory stance on the issue over the space of a few posts was what made no sense - not me pointing it out.

Switzerland as a nation is blameless with regard to it's chemical companies in the same way as Afghanistan as a nation is blameless with regard to the Heroin that is produced within it's borders.

Mailman - get a grip. No nation can prosecute for actions comitted outside the nation. Switzerland has no juridistiction to say what companies who are based in Switzerland can do outside its borders. Its simple fact.

As to your dilemma as to whether to chasitise people or actively promote recycling I'd suggest the latter and I'd venture to suggest that you can start by not buying anymore conventional batteries. Once you've started using rechargables you'll wonder why you ever used ordinary ones before.

I am chastising people from using a service and refusing to pay for it. Regardless of what that service is, the provider has a right to charge, and use of the service induces an obligation to pay. I have never once opposed boycotting of the service, nor of criticising it and asking it be improved whilst paying for and using the service.

Also, it was never about "actively promote recycling", it was about "campaign to improve the green bin service". Maybe you missed the sarcasm (I'll lay it on thicker in future if it helps), but I am perfectly capable of chastising people as I've outlined above and doing what I can to encourage the improvement of the recycling facilities in Dublin/Ireland. There is no problem doing both, unless you change what we were talking about.....

As for the batteries - I havent found a single usable set for camera flashes. You tell me where I can get them, and I'll consider changing. Or maybe you'll chastise me for such an environmentally unfriendly hobby just to score points instead.

jc

Mailman · 15-04-2002 2:32pm

[Removed as per request]

Saruman · 15-04-2002 2:38pm

ok i have not read through all this... so this may have been brought up before..

In the south dublin county council letter we got it states we will be recieving 3 bins.. they grey bin we got last year or before.. the other 2 will be delivered anon. Now it says these 2 bins are free of charge and the new charges are ONLY for the original grey bin.. that brings up 2 points.. firstly and most importantly WE PAID FOR THE GREY BIN WHEN WE GOT IT!!! and secondly if the other 2 are FREE that means that in the future a seperate charge can be brought out!! this is pathetic! Our taxes should have paid for this! I dont mind the 3 bins for recycling purposes etc.. but the charges adn the way they are put forward is not on..