Dublin between the canals: how to remove cars.

Mucco · 08-09-2005 01:38AM

As I said before, a carrot and stick approach has to be taken.

Introducing a vastly improved bus system, with park and ride (thanks Macy), is a cheap and quick option that could be up and running prior to any congestion penalties.

The aim of a congestion charge would be to change people's perceptions that driving into the centre of town is a right or even a necessity, forcing them think of alternatives; in London, 50-60% moved to public transport, 20-30% avoided the zone, and the remainder car-shared (source: wikipedia)

antoinolachtnai wrote:

if you want to travel from Stillorgan to Citywest (say) the only really viable way is to take the car.

I beg to differ, two wheels is a viable option. Just because there is not really a public transport alternative at the moment does not mean one can't be introduced.

I'm coming around to the idea of road tolling via satellite tracking. The technology is there, but is the willing?

dermo88 · 08-09-2005 01:53AM

OOOh great.

Another tax. I am not a motorist, but this rubbish of dreaming up additional taxes is a socialists (and I use that term in the loosest possible way) solution to everything. Listen, if I want to get mugged, theres a few heroin addicts around Parnell Street or Sherriff Street. Until that point, I suggest you get your thieving hands off our wallets. We had you wasters in the 1980's, and we have'nt forgotten what your so called solutions brought us.

Meanwhile, give us a decent public transport system. DART lines for distances greater than 10km out to 60km from the city centre. Luas for the distances less than 15km, and a lot more of them please.

Then you can talk about congestion charging.

Until then, shut up. Dublin Bus timetables are a work of fiction. They are perceived as being used by skangers. Take a look at Luas and DART and its clean and reasonably skanger free.

We know its expensive. Thats why its called CAPITAL expenditure. Your not wasting it on interest payments, people on the dole, civil servants wages, or keeping some piddly West of Ireland town going. Borrow for it, it will work. Our capital city deserves NOTHING LESS. In the meantime tell those daft fools from West on Track to stick their useless branchline up their fat arses. Luas carries more people in ONE DAY, than that yoke will carry in a year

antoinolachtnai · 08-09-2005 07:48AM

Large scale congestion charging using satellite tracking is definitely not a technically proven option at this point.

Removing all on-street parking spaces would upset ratepayers, drive businesses out beyond the canals and would result in a drop in rates income for the City Council.

Yes, you could make it from Stillorgan to Citywest on two wheels, but it certainly wouldnt be for everyone.

Obviously, a public transport alternative could be introduced. But there isn't one at the moment, and I'm suggesting how more services could be introduced.

The main thing to remember is that congestion is a general problem for the whole greater dublin area, not just the area with nice old buildings between the canals.

blorg · 08-09-2005 05:57PM

Completely agree with the removing on-street parking idea, it's a nightmare for cyclists. Particularly insane when a bike lane is put right beside parallel parking, right in the car's door zone. In Spain they tend to put carparks under public squares, which seems like a good option?

mackerski · 09-09-2005 09:20AM

Mucco wrote:

One of the major problems with transport in Dublin is a lack of imagination and open thinking for new (well, new to Dublin) ideas. 15 years is too late to start thinking about reducing car use.

You misunderstand me - it's the "hey, why not try a congestion charge?" kinds of suggestions I'm saying should go on the back burner, precisely because the initiatives we need are ones to get public transport and traffic management into a state where charging would:

a) Work
b) Be a fair and reasonable measure

Dermot

Mucco · 09-09-2005 07:41PM

Improving public transport without it costing a fortune means buses, and more importantly, bus lanes.

When the tunnel is open, there is the opportunity for a complete rethink of traffic flow in the centre. To remove cars from the centre, I would
Add more bus lanes, even change some roads into dedicated bus-only roads. This will increase car-congestion, but speed up buses, encouraging people to use them.
Get more buses. To be useful, buses need to be frequent.
Add more routes. Some routes between the suburbs would be nice, we don't all want to go into town.
And, in due course, add a congestion charge, though a satellite tracking system would be better to discourage a morning/evening rush.

Victor · 09-09-2005 09:11PM

dermo88 wrote:

Meanwhile, give us a decent public transport system. DART lines for distances greater than 10km out to 60km from the city centre. Luas for the distances less than 15km, and a lot more of them please.

Here's two tram lines and a port tunnel, now can we impose some restrictions?

mackerski · 09-09-2005 10:04PM

Victor wrote:

Here's two tram lines and a port tunnel, now can we impose some restrictions?

What kind did you have in mind? Presumably it'd be something that only restricted the behaviour of the folks that benefit in some way from Luas or the tunnel...

Dermot

Bee · 10-09-2005 07:14PM

Victor wrote:

Here's two tram lines and a port tunnel, now can we impose some restrictions?

Excellent idea

How about jailing the idiots involved in mis spending public money vis-a-vis congestion creating tram lines, a too small tunnel, mind boggling cost over runs and the night time dangerous waste land created by the lack of traffic just north of the Liffey because of the Clueless tram system.

I suggest jailing the civil servants/politicians and brown paper bag merchants for inflicting the unwelcome farce on Dublin

Bee

Hagar · 10-09-2005 07:39PM

Well said Bee.

saobh_ie · 10-09-2005 07:45PM

Yeah Bee's spot on. The way it is if the project managers on those jobs weren't working for the geverment they'd be out on the street with the **** they're doing. or rather, what they're not doing.

Sarsfield · 10-09-2005 07:54PM

saobh_ie wrote:

Yeah Bee's spot on. The way it is if the project managers on those jobs weren't working for the geverment they'd be out on the street with the **** they're doing. or rather, what they're not doing.

Are you commenting on the projects themselves or the management of the projects? 2 entirely different things.

And I'm not sure the millions of Luas passengers would agree with Bee. And as for Luas turning Benburb St into a wasteland, my memory of the area at night-time pre-Luas isn't exactly glowing!

SeanW · 10-09-2005 08:53PM

Oh dear. So a lack of vehicular traffic is a bad thing? And the people "responsible" for bringing trams back to the city should be thrown in jail. Wow. that's an unusual stand.

jax frost · 10-09-2005 11:02PM

Lads, this is an interesting thread.

I cycle 21km per day and it has reduced my Ample African frame somewhat.

Interestingly, over time, I have also not dissolved in this "terrible weather" people on this rock insist they have. I also practically have the cycle lanes to myself because less than 3% of Irish commuters cycle to work. This, selfishly, works for me too.

Yes bad drivers give me a cramp. Yes comatose pedestrians get on my nerves and the potholes in cycle paths are laughably large. I have also had to dodge the odd daft cyclist who just didn't look before pulling out. Cyclists, motorists and public transport junkies are all a bit stupid going to work and back like sheep. It's a modern malaise.

My take on this is: "Cycle if you want to get to work on time, alert and thinner. Drive if you don't."

The economic effect that cars have on the economy is more than significant but in the event of everyone cycling overnight, the government would readjust it's budget and gather revenue elsewhere. Do you honestly think that they are short of ways to gather moolah?

What do we pay them for?

Mucco · 11-09-2005 12:11AM

Bee wrote:

congestion creating tram lines,

Remind me again how trams create congestion? I always thought it was down to the cars.

M

jax frost · 11-09-2005 12:40AM

I agree. More people on trams = fewer people in cars = less congestion.

Metrobest · 12-09-2005 08:28PM

jax frost wrote:

Lads, this is an interesting thread.

I cycle 21km per day and it has reduced my Ample African frame somewhat.

Interestingly, over time, I have also not dissolved in this "terrible weather" people on this rock insist they have. I also practically have the cycle lanes to myself because less than 3% of Irish commuters cycle to work. This, selfishly, works for me too.

Yes bad drivers give me a cramp. Yes comatose pedestrians get on my nerves and the potholes in cycle paths are laughably large. I have also had to dodge the odd daft cyclist who just didn't look before pulling out. Cyclists, motorists and public transport junkies are all a bit stupid going to work and back like sheep. It's a modern malaise.

My take on this is: "Cycle if you want to get to work on time, alert and thinner. Drive if you don't."

The economic effect that cars have on the economy is more than significant but in the event of everyone cycling overnight, the government would readjust it's budget and gather revenue elsewhere. Do you honestly think that they are short of ways to gather moolah? What do we pay them for?

You're absolutely right. The only thing that's stopping Dublin from increasing its numbers of cyclists is political will. Or lack of it, I should say.

FergusF · 13-09-2005 04:37PM

Metrobest wrote:

You're absolutely right. The only thing that's stopping Dublin from increasing its numbers of cyclists is political will. Or lack of it, I should say.

I agree that there's a lack of political will to increase cycling, I wonder how many of them cycle regularly to the Dail? City planning also makes it more difficult, all those roundabouts, suburban estates, fast traffic routes, etc. Another thing stopping people is what jax alluded to above, the 'herd mentality' of people, not wanting to be seen to be different, etc. is a big influence on what we buy, what transport we use etc.

Metrobest · 13-09-2005 11:34PM

At Leinster House there is a bike rack near the security hut on Kildare Street. Parked on it, last time I looked at it, were about ten bicycles. I presume these belong to low-rank staff and not senior politicians. Government ministers are chauffer driven everywhere so I can't imagine them cycling to work. However, I think a couple of politicians in the Green Party cycle to the Dail. Maybe if the Greens get into government (shudder

) they would do something for cycling in Dublin?

The herd mentality is a huge factor, I agree. And it's not hard to see why. We grow up in a culture where kids are driven to school in SUVs, the status of a EUR1,80 toll on the M50 motorway is a matter of intense political protest and where politicians boast about building new roads as if they were saving the planet. And then there is the endless newspaper and television advertisements for cars and the car industry, the "drivetime" radio shows whereby advertising revenue depends on thousands of motorists being stuck in gridlocked traffic, and the utter lack of ANY campaign, through the media or through even halfway good cycle planning, that would encourage people out of their cars.

The number of cyclists on Dublin's streets could, and should, increase tenfold. Please let's not fool ourselves into thinking that this is impossible. It surely must be possible - if it's possible for Amsterdam, with its narrow streets, bad weather, similar population profile, then it's possible for Dublin.

Hagar · 14-09-2005 06:25AM

People are trotting out the "Amsterdam is full of bikes" arguement but nobody is mentioning the obvious, Holland is flat as a pancake and Ireland is not! You could cycle 5 or 10km around Amsterdam without too much phyical effort but the same distance across Dublin would leave you a sweaty mess and not really fit to go into an office and work with people for 8 hours.

Metrobest · 14-09-2005 10:25AM

Hagar wrote:

Holland is flat as a pancake and Ireland is not! You could cycle 5 or 10km around Amsterdam without too much phyical effort but the same distance across Dublin would leave you a sweaty mess and not really fit to go into an office and work with people for 8 hours.

There are a number of steep humpy bridges, ramps and so forth in Amsterdam that cyclists must negotiate. "Flat as a pancake" is a generalistation - not a factually accurate description.

From cycling similar distances in both cities, I can tell you that Dublin tends to be quite flat, especially in the canal zone. Certainly, the inclines are not such that they would induce any more sweat than Amsterdam's bridges!

Hagar · 14-09-2005 11:10AM

In fairness it would depend on your route to your destination. There are many hills in Dublin, it is built on a river valley after all. There are also long stretches of inclined roads in many areas. Try riding some of them in a suit under a set of wet weather gear against the wind and you will sweat without any doubt.

Metrobest · 14-09-2005 03:33PM

Really, the weather in Dublin is not that bad - it feels windier and rainier in the winter in Holland!

If you cycle in the rush hour you should, on average, experience rain once per month in the summer and twice during Winter. Even if cyclists took a taxi on wet mornings, they would still save a small fortune on the costs of running the car, or even taking the bus.

The presence of sweat depends on the speed at which you cycle. Dutch cylists amble along at a leisurely speed, and therefore do not perspire odiously. In Holland, the bike ride is a thing to be enjoyed. In Dublin, the bike ride is endured, thanks to the awful conditions our cyclists have to deal with. Cyclists, keen to minimise their unpleasant commute, rush along the streets at breakneck speed, weaving past swarms of buses, trucks, taxis and private cars. No wonder they sweat!

cyclopath2001 · 14-09-2005 06:31PM

Hagar wrote:

....but the same distance across Dublin would leave you a sweaty mess and not really fit to go into an office and work with people for 8 hours.

Cycling is easy, but I see many people making it hard for themselves by riding too high a gear, in the wrong clothes & with soft tyres.

My office has showers. There's nothing nicer than a brisk cycle to work along Dublin Bay followed by a quick shower.

It takes me just 30 minutes to get to the city centre. By comparison, cars are such a waste of space, it's absurd.

loyatemu · 15-09-2005 12:29PM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Cycling is easy, but I see many people making it hard for themselves by riding too high a gear, in the wrong clothes & with soft tyres.

and my favourite - riding with the saddle in the lowest possible position. do people not realise the saddle is adjustable - peddling with your knees up around your ears does not make it any easier!

Dublin between the canals: how to remove cars.

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