The Final Book

Sleepy · 29-08-2005 12:09PM

Draupnir wrote:

I just dont think it would make sense to kill the main character and hero of the whole series.

I had a flick through OOTP last night, and I discovered the most glaringly obvious clue that Harry isnt a Horcrux.

In the Ministry at the end of OOTP, Voldemort appears when Harry is taking the Mick out of Bella over the Prophecy smashing.

And Voldemort casts Avada Kevadra on Harry, only for Dumbledore to block it with the centaur statue he brings to life.

Surely Voldemort wouldnt kill his own Horcrux? Also, Voldemort doesnt know Dumbledore is there at the time so its not some kind of test or anything like that to throw Dumbledore off the scent.

Very good point Draupnir. Hopefully that'll put the horcrux theory to bed now. Though for some reason, I'm not that hopeful, just look at how long the Harry/Hermione shippers held out before the 6th book!

Sleepy · 29-08-2005 12:21PM

trishw78 wrote:

with all this talk of horcruxes there's only one question I have and it's about the HBP what role does the PM or the muggle world have to play in the final book ???

Standing around and looking shocked?

Seriously, I can't imagine the PM will have a major role. Something tells me he'll appear again, but in the same fashion: to demonstrate the scale of the conflict between the Death Eaters and the rest of the Wizarding world.

The things I'm wondering about are mainly things that Rowling has mentioned will feature during interviews:

* The big revelation about Lily Potter that's been promised
* The Member of the Order of the Phoenix that "we haven't really met yet" (I'm guessing Dumbledore's brother)
* What's Aunt Petunia's role going to be? JKR has suggested that we don't know everything about her yet? Is she secretly a witch that chose to live as a squib?

And a couple of hunches of my own:

* Ginny's power has been referred to many times (her infamous 'Bat Bogey Hexes' etc.) Will this come to the fore in book 7?
* Neville has to feature in some major way. He seems too important a character to stand on the sidelines... wouldn't surprise me at all were he the one to finish off Voldemort
* Lupin has to become more prominent, he's simply too strong a character not too.
* Sirrius's mirrors will probably become significant in some way.

Draupnir · 29-08-2005 01:35PM

I definitely agree with you on Neville Sleepy. After all, he too could well have been the one the prophecy spoke of and you would have to wonder why exactly Voldemort chose Harry instead of Neville.

Im guessing it has something to do with the big secret about Lily that will be revealed. After all, Nevilles parent were both big time aurors so youd think that their son would be considered a threat moreso than Lily and James', who we havent learned much about, in terms of exceptional magical ability. Bar Lily being damn good at potions and James being a messing little get who could turn into a stag and was good at Quidditch.

My guess is that Neville and his ability with Herbology might be involved in destroying one of the horcruxes, probably the Hufflepuff one, since Herbology is taught by their head of house, Professor Sprout.

On the Ginny theory, I just reckon she is next up to be the answer for the famous "Who dies in this one" question. Lets face it, Harry is going to have to experience something pretty bad to make him mean those unforgivable curses more than he meant them when Bella killed Sirius.

But I definitely think she will go down with a decent scrap!

Having thought more on the Dumbledore thing, I will be HUGELY shocked if he doesnt come back to life to be honest. His connection to Phoenixes is too glaringly obvious for him not to resurrect in some way, shape or form.

Once its not by a campfire on Endor, I'll be happy enough.

funky penguin · 29-08-2005 04:29PM

She hates any connections made between Star Wars and her books, so I'd say we're safe.

I think the closest we're going to get to Dumbledore being resurrected in some way is the painting in the headmaster office.

Scarinae · 29-08-2005 07:00PM

Sleepy wrote:

* The big revelation about Lily Potter that's been promised

I find this one interesting. Apparently it is significant that in the first book Mr Ollivander tells Harry that Lily's wand was good for charm work - and though I've had a number of ideas as to how this could be significant, all my thoughts are too obviously flawed to be put into this thread. Anyone have a reasonable idea what it could be?

Jade Chihuahua · 29-08-2005 07:32PM

Draupnir wrote:

I just dont think it would make sense to kill the main character and hero of the whole series.

I had a flick through OOTP last night, and I discovered the most glaringly obvious clue that Harry isnt a Horcrux.

In the Ministry at the end of OOTP, Voldemort appears when Harry is taking the Mick out of Bella over the Prophecy smashing.

And Voldemort casts Avada Kevadra on Harry, only for Dumbledore to block it with the centaur statue he brings to life.

Surely Voldemort wouldnt kill his own Horcrux? Also, Voldemort doesnt know Dumbledore is there at the time so its not some kind of test or anything like that to throw Dumbledore off the scent.

Why wouldnt he kill Harry? He suspects that the prophecy says that Harry could kill him or bring about his downfall, so he would believe that Harry is the only person who can kill him. He'd have no need for any horcruxes once Harry was killed, Harry being a horcrux is just protection FROM Harry, no-one else can kill him according to the prophecy and since one of them has to kill the other, I find it extremely plausible that Voldemort would try to kill him. And if (from his point of view), he turned out to be wrong and the prophecy hadnt said that Harry could kill him, Voldemort would still be one the most powerful and feared wizards ever, and would still have more horcruxes than anyone else had even attempted to make. Voldemort would kill Harry, regardless of him being a horcrux, without giving it even a second thought.

Sleepy · 29-08-2005 08:15PM

Well, presumably Lily's wand is where it fell: Godric's Hollow, which is where we know the adventure starts in book 7

Jade, you're really grasping at straws now!

bp · 29-08-2005 09:30PM

Sleepy wrote:

Well, presumably Lily's wand is where it fell: Godric's Hollow, which is where we know the adventure starts in book 7

Jade, you're really grasping at straws now!

forgive me - Godric's hollow?

voldy has been trying to kill harry from book one....why would he kill a bit of his soul???

Sleepy · 29-08-2005 11:16PM

Godric's Hollow - the village (presumably named for Godric Gryffindor) that Harry's parents lived and died in and where Harry announced he'd be starting his quest to get Voldemort at the end of book 6.

Jade Chihuahua · 29-08-2005 11:41PM

Sleepy wrote:

Well, presumably Lily's wand is where it fell: Godric's Hollow, which is where we know the adventure starts in book 7

Jade, you're really grasping at straws now!

How exactly? It stands to reason that if Voldemort heard about the prophecy, he'd single out the other person mentioned as a threat. But instead of merely killing Harry outright, he was cautious.......he spared Harry's life, but in the event that Harry posed a threat, Voldemort would be insured completely.Voldemorts mistrusting and ambitous enough to insure himself so fully. The Half Blood prince was clearly a book whose main function was to set up the final book.......everything introduced newly into a book has always had great consequences for Harry, but this book seemed to leave horcruxes surprisingly open in this regard, so it seems clear to me that Horcruxes will have a major part to play, obviously in the story line, but also, very personally for Harry.

Would you like to say something specific about how Im clutching at straws? My arguments make sense and unless you can come up with an actual argument that can fully prove me wrong, Im going to have to assume that you said Im clutching at straws coz you couldnt actually think of an argument.
By the way Sleepy, it kinda seems like your just refusing my point on principle now, you dont even seem to acknowledge any arguments for the horcrux theory, yet leap behind any against it. Is it just that you cant admit the possibility of being wrong or do you hold some sort of personal grudge against the theory? Im not saying that you have to agree with it, I just find it weird that you seem to think it cant possibly be true and refuse to accept even the possibility. I could well be wrong, but until someone can make a solid argument to prove it, Im sticking with the horcrux theory!

Sleepy · 30-08-2005 12:12AM

You've been given a number of reasons to dismiss the horcrux theory. Unless one is prepared to accept that:

* Voldemort never intended to kill Harry, only make a horcrux of him
* that it was this that destroyed the part of his soul that was in his body (rather than the inarguably more likely rebounded Avada Kedavra spell)
* that in all of the books Voldemort has been trying to destroy part of his own soul (or has gone to that much trouble just to make it look like he was)
* that the prophecy is essentially meaningless because Voldemort found a way around it (despite never having heard all of it at the time he was supposedly plotting this ingenious means of ensuring it couldn't happen)
* that JK Rowling is prepared to kill Harry and finish the books leaving Dumbledore look a fool (and effectively end her own writing career by ending the books so badly)

...there's no way you can store any faith in the Harry is a horcrux theory.

It just doesn't fit in with the central theme running through the books: that love conquers evil. It goes against most of what we've been told to date (by discrediting the history and told to us by Dumbledore) and results in the central character of a children's book having to commit suicide.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as condescending but it's frankly a ludicrous theory to my mind at least.

Jade Chihuahua · 30-08-2005 12:57AM

Ive already presented arguments for the first three, the prophecy isnt meaningless, it just means that Harry will have to sacrifice himself to destroy Voldemort, and it has been done several times by other characters to protect Harry, so I dont see it as outrageous that Harry would do it himself.
As for JK not ending the books like that, she's already killed Sirius and Dumbledore, two of the series' most popular characters and just because Harry dies at the end doesnt mean that it will go against the theme of love conquering evil or that it will be a bad ending.......from the very first book, Dumbledore has told Harry that love transcends death and allowing Harry to finally rejoin his parents as well as giving the series a final and very moving end to the series. It would only be such a poor ending if she chooses to write it that way, it could very much turn out to be a very touching ending showing Harry's unwavering display of love and goodness as he ends his own life to save those he cares about and take Voldemort with him.

Apology accepted, I believe that you werent trying to sound condescanding and I look forward to your next argument

Draupnir · 30-08-2005 09:20AM

Jade Chihuahua wrote:

He'd have no need for any horcruxes once Harry was killed, Harry being a horcrux is just protection FROM Harry, no-one else can kill him according to the prophecy and since one of them has to kill the other

You need to re read your OOTP, Voldemort doesnt only have Horcruxes to protect himself from Harry, he is simply obsessed with the idea of immortality and being a huge part of Wizarding history.

It doesnt actually say anywhere that Harry is the ONLY person who can kill Voldemort, however, it does point out that because Voldemort chose to act upon the small part of the prophecy he heard, he has caused a situation where neither of them can live while the other survives.

I take that to mean, from the way Dumbledore describes the situation in OOTP, that both of them will not rest until they do away with the other. Not that they physically cannot stay alive at the same time.

Its totally implausible to think that Harry is a horcrux, creating a horcrux is a very complex piece of magic which possibly only Voldemort can do. You must split your soul and then identify a place to keep the soul shard. So your theory is that, Voldemort split his soul with Lily? or James?

And then identified Harry as the place to keep the fragment of soul? But the horcrux creation spell backfired and for some reason, became a killing spell and almost killed Voldemort completely, had it not been for his other horcruxes?

Also, what was Voldemort gonna do, take Harry on as an apprentice and bring him everywhere with him to protect his 7th, and ultimately most magically powerful Horcrux?

Draupnir · 30-08-2005 09:24AM

Another thing I noticed last night is, Voldemort got the Hufflepuff cup, most likely one of his horcruxes, from one Hepzibah Smith who he later killed.

Now, there is one fairly prominent Hufflepuff in school with Harry and around the same age, one Zacharias Smith.

Could well be a relation. Time will tell I guess.

Sleepy · 30-08-2005 12:02PM

Jade, you've got to look at this logically. There are simply too many "if's" in your counter-arguments. Yes, the theory is theoretically possible but it simply requires too much of what's in canon to be dismissed or altered imho.

If the series were to stretch for another three of four books, it might be a little more likely, however there is only one book left and I severely doubt that JK Rowling is going to spend half of it going "Ha! I was lying all along! Dumbledore was clueless, it wasn't Lily's sacrifice for Harry that saved him when Voldemort tried to kill him, in fact, Voldemort wasn't even trying to kill him for the last 6 books etc. etc."

I can see the appeal to the theory but it's simply stretching too far away from canon to be plausible.

Jade Chihuahua · 30-08-2005 06:22PM

Draupnir wrote:

Jade Chihuahua wrote:

He'd have no need for any horcruxes once Harry was killed, Harry being a horcrux is just protection FROM Harry, no-one else can kill him according to the prophecy and since one of them has to kill the other

You need to re read your OOTP, Voldemort doesnt only have Horcruxes to protect himself from Harry, he is simply obsessed with the idea of immortality and being a huge part of Wizarding history.

It doesnt actually say anywhere that Harry is the ONLY person who can kill Voldemort, however, it does point out that because Voldemort chose to act upon the small part of the prophecy he heard, he has caused a situation where neither of them can live while the other survives.

I take that to mean, from the way Dumbledore describes the situation in OOTP, that both of them will not rest until they do away with the other. Not that they physically cannot stay alive at the same time.

Its totally implausible to think that Harry is a horcrux, creating a horcrux is a very complex piece of magic which possibly only Voldemort can do. You must split your soul and then identify a place to keep the soul shard. So your theory is that, Voldemort split his soul with Lily? or James?

And then identified Harry as the place to keep the fragment of soul? But the horcrux creation spell backfired and for some reason, became a killing spell and almost killed Voldemort completely, had it not been for his other horcruxes?

Also, what was Voldemort gonna do, take Harry on as an apprentice and bring him everywhere with him to protect his 7th, and ultimately most magically powerful Horcrux?

My theroy is that Voldemort split his soul from killing James and then proceeded to turn Harry into a Horcrux, which he did. I dont know where you got the idea that I said it became a killing spell, as Ive said several times, I dont think Voldemort originally planned to kill Harry, that it was the strain of splitting his soul a sixth time that weakened Voldemort so much.
As was mentioned in The Half Blood Prince, Voldemort turned his diary into a horcrux both as a weapon as well as a protection, because of the insurance he had from his other horcruxes and Dumbledore already theorised that the snake Nagini was a horcrux so it is clearly shown that Voldemort is not afraid of using horcruxes to his advantage even if it means destroying some of them to do it and also that it is possible to create a horcrux from a living creature. So apart from where you completely misunderstood my argument, you're argument consists of saying, "Its totally implausible to think that Harry is a horcrux, creating a horcrux is a very complex piece of magic which possibly only Voldemort can do. You must split your soul and then identify a place to keep the soul shard. So your theory is that, Voldemort split his soul with Lily? or James?And then identified Harry as the place to keep the fragment of soul?"
Why exactly is that implausible? You havent given a reason explaining this, except for one based on misunderstanding my point.

As for what Voldemort was going to do, I dont think he was going to raise Harry as a dark wizard or an apprentice, Harry was there because Voldemort heard part of the prophecy and sought protection against Harry. Making Harry into a horcrux would automatically give Voldemort the ultimate protection from him and he would be the one horcrux that Dumbledore wouldnt destroy.

Sleepy, the reason there are so many 'ifs' in my arguments is because Im trying not to present just one specific reason or scenario for Harry being a horcrux, there are so many different and distinct clues pointing towards it that it presents countless scenarios to back it up.

Draupnir · 30-08-2005 09:31PM

OK, so you think Voldemort split his soul when he killed James, which weakened him to the point of being a wraith like shadow of himself, yet he still had the power to kill Lily and was then powerful enough to cast the Horcrux spell?

I'm not having a go here by the way, this is just a discussion, so dont think I'm having a go at you personally. I'd liek to fully understand your theory because, either one of us could be as wrong/right as each other!

Jade Chihuahua · 31-08-2005 10:55PM

No, I dont think that killing James is what caused him to weaken so much.....if that was my theory it would rely on mass murderers becoming weird ghosts or something. I think that the actual spell where he put his soul into Harry, removing part of his soul for the sixth time, is what caused him so much harm.

Sleepy · 01-09-2005 12:51AM

So, by splitting his soul into the magical number of 7, he killed one of those parts?

Still not convincing me.

Draupnir · 01-09-2005 09:16AM

Im gonna go with Dumbledore and the "Love Shield" magic theory to be honest, sure we saw traces of it in Philosophers Stone when Voldemort couldnt touch Harry and then Voldemort actually says in GOF that the he can now touch harry, that the protection provided by his mother will no longer have an effect.

so Voldemort and Dumbledore seem to agree that Harrys mother provided a protection which stopped Voldemort from harming him. Hence, it made the Killing curse rebound, but when it rebounded and hit Voldemort, it couldnt kill him because he had 6 horcruxes at that stage. So he became a shadow of himself.

Pretty concise and fully accurate to the canon.

*marie* · 01-09-2005 10:16AM

Jade will you use bullet points or something, cause I want to read your arguments but they're far too confusing to be read as a big paragraph!

Just to change the subject...about the Love Shield theory, would it be true to say that Dumbledore died to save Draco? If so, this could have interesting consequences...
*imagines Draco appearing at the end of the epic Harry/Voldy battle, just as Harry is about to surrender, and rubbing the palms of his hands all ober Voldy's face, burning it...*

Jade Chihuahua · 01-09-2005 10:44PM

I actually agree with the love shield theory, but who's to say that the love shield couldnt cause the horcrux spell to weaken its caster as well. When Voldemort cast the horcrux spell, he created a link between himself and Harry, the protection spell would have damaged him greatly. And no, as someone is more than likely going to say, this doesnt contradict my theory about splitting his soul into too many pieces, it just means that Voldemort was weakened by splitting his soul to the point where he had no protection against the love shield, which would explain logically why he is now immune to it. Once he was returned to his full strength, he was able to easily bypass the protection Harry had.

P.S.I'm kinda busy at the moment, but when I have more time I'll go back and bullet my arguments.

Draupnir · 02-09-2005 09:25AM

The reason Voldemort can now pass the "Love Shield" protection is because he used Harrys blood to rejuvenate in "The Goblet of Fire". Its in the book.

Again, Harry is not a Horcrux and was never intended to be. From Voldemort's hearing of the prophecy, Harry is his ultimate enemy, the only one who can defeat him and Voldemort decided to get rid of Harry before he got any power, simple as that.

omnicorp · 02-09-2005 09:56PM

but maybe he's the ultimate enemy cos he has a bit of voldemort in him?
you never know?

Jade Chihuahua · 02-09-2005 11:41PM

Draupnir wrote:

The reason Voldemort can now pass the "Love Shield" protection is because he used Harrys blood to rejuvenate in "The Goblet of Fire". Its in the book.
Again, Harry is not a Horcrux and was never intended to be. From Voldemort's hearing of the prophecy, Harry is his ultimate enemy, the only one who can defeat him and Voldemort decided to get rid of Harry before he got any power, simple as that.

You "know" why Voldemort is immune to Harry's love shield in the same way that you, and the majority of characters in the book "knew";
that Sirius Black was a mass murderer,
that Peter Pettigrew was a brave man who died fighting his friends betrayer, that Hagrid released the Basilisk from the chamber of secrets,
that Gilderoy Lockhart was an accomplished vanquisher of dark creatures,
that Barty Crouch jr. died in Azkaban,
etc.

I have read the book you know, I actually was aware that the reason Harry believes for Voldemort surviving the love shield, but Voldemort is the one who told him that it was because of his blood......why would Voldemort tell Harry that he was a horcrux, that would be betraying one of his biggest weaknesses.

Your point about Voldemort hearing the prophecy and fearing that Harry could kill him, set off to end the threat, is the same as mine, except you believe that Voldemort wanted to kill him, I believe that Voldemort was clever enough to try to use him as a weapon, Harry as a horcrux would be an invaluble weapon to him, as Ive already explained in previous posts......

Please, if your going to make arguments against me, please check and make sure that you're not repeating previously explained or used arguments.....in fact, half of the arguments used against me seem to contradict each other..........odd.

omnicorp · 02-09-2005 11:51PM

and the 6 attempted murders?

Jade Chihuahua · 03-09-2005 12:06AM

Because Voldemort has since learned that allowing Harry to survive was a mistake? Maybe he wasnt actually tryin to kill him? The only time that Voldemort actually tried to kill him for definite, their wands caused that whole brother wand thing to happen......I very much doubt that Voldemort wasnt aware of the bond their wands shared....how better to convince Harry and Dumbledore that Harry wasnt a horcrux than by pretending to try to kill him!

Draupnir · 03-09-2005 10:01PM

Jade wrote:

I very much doubt that Voldemort wasnt aware of the bond their wands shared....

why do you doubt this? I seriously doubt Voldemort did know, How would he have found out? Pop in to see Ollivander did he? He spent years as a wraith buzzing around in Romania so I doubt he kept up on his wands.

Ollivander did go missing in Book 6, so maybe he,and the wand thing, is more important than just the GOF scene. Maybe Voldemort has him.

By the way Jade, Voldemort making Harry a Horcrux isnt the ultimate protection really. Im sure Voldemort considered the fact that his "ultimate horcrux" might be pissed enough about his parents being murdered to be willing to give his own life to get the murderer.

omnicorp · 03-09-2005 10:10PM

yeah. if harry was a horcrux then the voldemort trying to kill harry and harry trying to kill voldemort wouldn't make sense cos harry would be part voldemort wouldn't he?

05-09-2005 06:32AM

i agree with the love shield theory!i think the last boook will be brill.even more so if she fooled everyone and came up with something nobody thought of.like sirius in book3

The Final Book

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