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"Real fights?"
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Roper wrote:That's what I mean by fantasy.
I'm not trying to pimp John here, but what he says about getting the fundamentals of each range and training in them properly is probably your best bet. Might take you a while to realise that though.....
Hey we pretty much agreed with each other
He even agreed that there is no harm in
"I think just having a couple of even light sparring sessions against multiple opponents is a worthwhile investment for anyone."
I agree with the fundamentals of each range. I think you'll find I've always being with you guys on that one. Find me a post where I have not said that
Didn't think there is any element of fantasy in
1.Run away
2. Don't get involved
3. Get into a position where you can run away
4. My above quote about occasional multiple opponent sparring.
Thats it
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john kavanagh wrote:try out a good bjj/mma club and answer your own questions
I'd love to but there are not that many around. At least on the north side anyway. I keep planning to drop down to Rathmines but one thing or another has gotten in the way.
I am quite open to everything I have even done a seminar with your good self and I was very impressed. Jujutsu club in Raheny.0 -
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I'd love to but there are not that many around. At least on the north side anyway. I keep planning to drop down to Rathmines
try out andy ryan's training group in finglas
there's no mma/bjj in rathmines - but i'm right next door in harolds cross 0 -
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Colm_OReilly wrote:What was the point of this thread Paul?
Peace,
Colm
Healthy debate Man
I do intend to put my part into this thread. But I'm not getting much time on the net with the new job! Weekends are even messed up at the moment!
I will post asap.
But I have thought the replies have been top :cool: and I don't see why you have to question my reasons for starting the thread?0 -
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Sorry for not getting back to you lads!! But I'm here now:D
So what did I mean?pma-ire wrote:What do you need to survive in a real fight?
This question was based in the time after trying to get out of the conflict by any means but fighting. The fight has started a strike has been thrust towards you.
Yes, not fighting is the ideal result and is the best result for everyone. But I was not talking about the pre-fight stage (maybe for another thread??).
Many people say "Run Away"!! Yes, thats fine! But they can run also, so you have to go for hit and run techniques. These can be anything that will cause the attacker to be unballanced or fall to the ground. While you make your get away. In my case I cannot run very fast for very far, so I would have to work on hit and walk(away fast) moves . This has to involve short and fast responces levelled hopefully to the level of attack on my person. But all with the idea of unballancing and discourging the attacker.
The next thing you have to think about is the odds...
1. The longer the fight goes on, the higher the odds are that you will get hurt badly.
2. He could have friends who might not be obvious to you. But come out of nowhere and want to join in.
3. You need to have some basics covered in all the ranges, incase the fight goes there, because again you want to end the situation as fast as you can. eg. a lot of people say that most fights go to the ground! I would say that fights only go to the ground when neither person can take control of the situation and cannot defend against attacks in the different ranges.
Also some people do like to take it there.
4. You don't know the frame of mind of the attacker? Do they want to kill me? Do they want to just hit me? (they might just end up doing a lot of damage without meaning it??)
5. They might have a weapon (Knife most likely weapon if they are carrying, syringe being the worst. If they have a gun, they would pull it out from the start) and you don't want to let them get the chance to use it.pma-ire wrote:How do you train to achive this?
You need to build up drills of random adaptation with deliveries that are gonna give you the quickest results. This can be done by firstly working slowly with a semi-compliant partner reacting to your movements and strikes. Your goal being to unballance or put them down quickly.
Another point we have to consider is who we are most likely to be fighting? I would hope that we would not be fighting fellow MA'ists! As this would mean that those persons would be abusing the skills learnt in the training hall and there instructor. No, attackers are more likely to be folks with to much to drink and not able to control there heads. (Also sometimes it could be friends or family which is sticky and may involve more evasion and control)
Also you must think about the most common first attacks thrown by folk not in the Martial Arts.
These would be...
1. A haymaker punch (or bogger punch). You always find when you ask a MA'ist to throw a punch that it comes at you in a straight line! When most people just throw big swings like in that vid link posted this week, and mostly with the right hand first.
2. A football kick. Again you ask a MA'ist to throw a front kick and it come at you in a straight line. When most people just throw there legs in the most common way they know from playing football. This also goes for groin kicks. Also mostly with the right leg.
3. Diving in and grabbing around the waist to throw you to the ground. This is not the slick move of the grappler. But a person throwing themselves onto the ground while trying to pull you down there also.
At closer ranges...
4. Headbutts.
5. Knees.
6. Elbows.
Sometimes grabbing you by the clothes or body with one or two hands and following with...
7. A headbutt.
8. A knee.
9. A haymaker.
10. An elbow (not that much though).
These can be classed as being different to the strikes done without being grabbed first, because the attacker has given away one or two of there striking tools.
Then we have the ones that can be put on you blindside...
11. Headlocks and chokes. Both standing and sidelocks.
12. Pushes that casue you to fall to the ground.
Then taking what has been learnt in that enviroment and applying it in sparring with your partner. Where you will find out if what you have works under pressure? If it don't work, then is it because you need to time the response better with a bit of drilling? Or is because it will not work on a person this size but will on someone smaller/bigger? Or is it because it just won't work under pressure?
This can be applied with all your training and should not be much different to what most people do every training night? Pressure testing is what keeps you real! Because you must also see what works for you, as something that works for someone else may not work for you? But if you don't test it under pressure and you use that responce for real you could be in for a nasty shock.
On the fact that some folk don't think that learning drills do you any good? I can't see any reason to think like this?
What does drilling do? It trains your brain to direct your body in an almost auto response to your choice of delivery. The drills (both static and in motion) should be teaching you how to land the best deliveries on a target, and when in motion the adaptation for your delivery or responce to the movement of the opponent.
And always being aware of back-offs. I use to find that I got attacked by guys thinking that they could have me because I'm 5' 7", fat, have glasses and I'm bald also!! Easy!!
After a few quick responses most folk would back off saying how sorry they were and they made a mistake :rolleyes: B*ST*RDS!! :mad:0 -
Okay, this will tie in a bit with stuff I already posted on the Takedowns thread but what harm.
If the fight is on,for definite the first blow has been thrown,then this simplifies matters for us!
To understand the shortcomings of most drills, we need look no further than Col. J. Boyd's OODA Cycle. This "cycle" is the process by which the brain receives an input (stimulus) and analyzes that input as to its relevance to the individual, decides on a course of action, and then performs that action.
OODA stands for:
O: Observe - the initial input of a stimulus which can be visual, auditory, or tactile, etc.
O: Orient - this stage is where the brain examines what effect this stimulus can possibly have on the individual (does it pose a threat, does it involve me, etc.)
Decide - this, the most time-consuming stage of the OODA process, is where you choose a course of action based on your analysis of the stimulus. You may decide that no action is needed, or choose from other options (run, fight, etc.) Hick's Law of Neurophysiology states that reaction time increases by 58% by having only two choices to make, so you can see the problem created by MA styles that brag of "thousands of techniques".
A: Act - this is where you implement your decision. This part is simple compared to the middle of the OODA Cycle.
With a blow thrown we should now be at the Act stage of the cycle,and our realistic pressure testing and Scenario Drills Should make the acting part an automatic response.Nothing worse than training away for years in a hall and when a real fight kicks off the startle response freezes you to the spot!
In traditional drills, you know the "rules". You know what type of attack(s) will be used, you know what you will do to respond, and you know how and when the drill ends. Now, place yourself at the "end of the line", having watched 10 of your fellow trainees defend themselves against the front punch (for example). By the time your turn arrives, you know exactly what you intend to do, and have rehearsed it in your mind. All that remains is to ACT (A). You do not have to assess the situation in any way. This concept applies to the way in which some schools/instructors conduct drills in all phases of SD training, including knife and gun work. While these drills teach precision of response, etc., they do not mimic the way in which you will need to perform when confronted with the real thing outside the dojo. Outside the dojo, none of the "setting" is pre-determined. You must assess each new experience on its own, and without seeing any other trainees attempt their own "answer".
Successful drills for the street, which never look as precise or "slick" as the staged drills, remove any anticipation of the event from the setting.Even full contact fights in a sports setting are already at the Act stage as you already know the range, weapons, and limitations your opponent will follow? Why is it that you both know that you are going to engage in fighting with mutual consent? The DECISIONS have already been made.
This is what makes random street attacks harder for most MA,boxers etc. to deal with.The actual fight part is easy,it's having to make the decision as to whether this is far enough and now your going to run/fight is the hard part.
I mentioned in the other thread about a scummer whose tactic was to ask a question then strike.This is dealt with by Geoff Thompson in his work on "Trigger Phrases".Though he doesn't refer to the OODA loop afaik,the effect is the same.You or your opponnent hear the question and the observe/orient stage is reached.Now Thompson advises that you do the asking but use the question as your trigger to act.You've decided to hit the guy,ask your question and as it finishes you hit him.It's like a sucker punching move.
Before your guy is wound up to strike you but you know what's coming,for example,point to his side and look there,while watching him in peripheral vision."Is that your Tenner??" and straight in with your strike giving you the opening you need to leg it!If it puts the guy a split second behind you,he's at O while your on A,then even if he's super fast he can't block your strike.
This is a thugging tactic used against them,put them in a bad position and yourself in a better one to ensure your goals (escape in this case) are achieved with the least effort or danger to yourself.
Right,I've waffled on enough,any comments or questions lads feel free to fire away!0 -
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Roper,
If you've not already come across them you might like to check out 'Blink, The Power of Thinking Without Thinking' by Malcolm Gladwell and 'Deep Survival, Who Lives, Who Dies and Why' by Laurence Gonzales.
They are more about how and why decisions are made rather than purely geared toward SD,though can be brought to bear on that type of situation.How the brain works under stress, a lot like Geoff Thompsons "Animal Day" training or indeed the padded assailant scenario training if you want to play with that!
"Blink" concerns itself with heuristics, the rules-of-thumb that we use to make snap-judgments and to simplify our decision-making (things that occur within a "blink"). Violent situations often have characteristics of Chaotic systems, namely "sensitivity to initial conditions." The decisions made in the very beginning of the situation can have extraordinarily amplified effects on the final outcome. This is where heuristics come in.
The science of heuristics and the ways that heuristics can be enhanced or modified by training (this is different from "startle-flinch" type stuff) is a very important emerging field within the larger discipline of decision science. Gladwell gives some very interesting case study examples in "Blink." Some readers may be familiar with his famous book "The Tipping Point."
My favourite startle/Flinch response, I was showing PMA at the Rick Clarke Seminar,is a bit like the "Drunken monkey" stuff in the ISR Matrix of SBG.I guess there's only so many ways of doing things right 0
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