"Real fights?"

pma-ire

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

Skycat

I don't know and it probably depends on the fighters,but here is what I think(for all it's worth)

I have been in a few street/pub fights as it were over the years.Never the initiator of course.I suppose what I learned and what most if not all people can do is to know when a real fight is about to occur and be ready,really ready,be able to think and not freeze up,take a punch and lastly know how to injure quickly,easily and efficiently.

I don't think any training will fully equip you to deal with all situations in a real fight,the fights themselves would be the real learning experience I reckon.

I have only trained in Boxing and studied Taiji Chuan.

I hope this does not ignite any fuses.

EPO_MAN

good question.
i think training can only take you so far...attitude and an iron will take you the rest.

Highly trained guys can freeze in an unregulated situation while a violent criminal who is used to violence will thrive.

I thinking training works to a degree but it needs to instill confidence.

I'm a better fighter due to my doorman experience (some unpleasant) as much as anything I learned in the dojo.
There i got to apply technique in real life but I also gained confidence and control of my adreniline in situations.

training, fitness and confidence in 3 double measures.

dlofnep

Are we talking 1 on 1? If so, all the elements of MMA will help you tenfold on the streets.

pma-ire

dlofnep wrote:

Are we talking 1 on 1? If so, all the elements of MMA will help you tenfold on the streets.

Thing is with a real situation you can't just be thinking about the one person!

You have to think about there friends or anyone that just wants to join in?

So my question is directed to more than a one on one

IANOC

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

2 things................

1. A cool head
2. a point of exit , if needed

dent

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

I can see people having problems with the term "real fight". I'm going to assume you mean fighting in an uncontrolled environment.

I'd say control of your adrenaline is one of the most important. I have yet to meet anyone who stated they didn't shake uncontrollably after their first real fight.

Then I'd say plenty of sparing so you are reacting with instinct rather than trying to recreate some technique you practised once or twice.

The most important of course is a bit of street smarts. Look for a way out and take it if it arises.

I guess my biggest fear would be ending up in that situation with my girlfriend present. When you can't run and you have to stand and fight. In that situation I'd say be as nasty as you can.

Baldie

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

The answer to your forst question is: a good pair of legs....

A treadmill would be handy....

I train in Ju-Jitsu and i have never been in a street fight (thank god, touch wood!) But if i was, then the first thing i'd do is try and run. I'd rather wake up next to my girlfriend in bed, then waking up beside her in a hospital bed with a knife wound.... You wouldn't know what people are carrying with them these days....

It's always safer to walk away from a fight. You should only use your training when you really have to... like when your exit is not clear....

dlofnep

pma-ire wrote:

Thing is with a real situation you can't just be thinking about the one person!

Well, if multiple people are going to attack you and you can't run away you're ****ed. Nothing you can do - Nothing will help you, unless you're in the matrix.

mark.leonard

My advice? Don't bother! Street encounter is too unpredictable, and when anything can happen a lot of the time - bad things happen!

john kavanagh

yeah but what if....

Thing is with a real situation you can't just be thinking about the one person!

before i understood i used to find it amazing the amount of people who won't spar/compete in a limited rules environment with just one person (MMA match) but yet feel they are training to fight in a no rules environment against multiple opponents, who may be armed :rolleyes:

don't let the first time your body expierences that rush of adrenaline and other 'fight or flight' chemicals be a 'real' situation

Face your Fear. Face Yourself. Grow.

SO200

Hi just joined the board!

No experience in marial arts but often when looking at my collection of UFC DVDs I've thought on how some of the skills displayed could be used in real situations.

Some of these guys can execute a take-down within seconds and although the fight continues on the ground I'd imagine a fast and skillful take down on cement in a real situation would be "game over" for an attacker.

Couple of things that trouble me though are "clinches" and the "legs-open" defensive position on the ground. It seems both of these would leave you very vulnerable to an attack in the groin area but they both seem integral to MMA.

Any thoughts ?

Baldie

99% of street fights would rarely go to the ground. If they did then you would be wide open for kicks or bottles off "the mates"..... When your opponent does go to the ground, that's your chance to leggit!!

Damo W

Spot on Mark, no matter how well prepared you are there is always the x-factor that is outside of ones control.

A points I wish to raise, possibly extraneous to this thread but I feel should be highlighted

When talking about self defence/protection there always seems to be an over emphasis on the physical, confrontation occurs when an individuals can’t co-exist happily with one another, (when one understands the consequences of a violent struggle and) when ‘EGO’ is removed, the likelihood of a confrontation is reduced to pure chance, this has been the goal of what popular commentators now call TMA.
Should all instructors who indicate that self-defence is part of what they offer consider this?

[To build moral character-its social aim; discover and overcome the source human weakness-its philosophical nature; and finally, to know inner peace-its spiritual essence. Every facet of this practice is a message far greater than the physical conduit through which it is delivered.]

Naos

Baldie: What complete and utter crap.

Where do you get these figures from?
Ever watch street fights on the internet? A vast majority go to the ground.
And you studying in JiuJitsu.. Should be a nice little gameplan of yours if the situation is feasible.

JohnK: Very good post, totally agree. Reason I want to join an MMA league when I return.

Baldie

Do you know that 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

Hey look that's just my opinion. I wouldn't dare go to the ground in a street fight..... I'd prefer to keep it standing and finsh it with some vicious knees to the face.

Giblet

The first thing is always "How do I get out of here?"
Most fights will be very close quarters and you won't have any room to do anything, you need to put yourself in a situation where you can run even while involved in a hold. That's what usually happens, alot of grabbing and pushing someone off their balance and running is the best plan. Most fights probably don't last very long (The "build up" is long maybe slagging or getting right up to your face) You should always be ready for someone hitting you first and you should only hit someone to enable you to get out of the situation. Most people probably think you should hit someone the second you sense they are on your case but usually you should try talk them down. You have to think about being rounded up later by the police, especially if it was in a pub or just outside one.

You will get out of breath very quickly even if you are fit so running as soon as you can will be the best option. Most people I know usually get really pissed off and want to return to the fight! Adrenalin speaking.

Remember, it only takes a second to hit you with a bottle if you are unguarded.

KTRIC

It's all well and good saying what you would do in an uncontrolled fight but I think the most important part of the statement is "uncontrolled". The odd's of you killing someone in self defence are quite high, especially if you have martial arts training and then you are a murderer. It is hard to prove who started the fight if it's a 1 on 1.

For this reason I tend to try and get out of a fight as quick as possible if one starts as I know when things get heated someone allways goes one step to far.

dent

john kavanagh wrote:

before i understood i used to find it amazing the amount of people who won't spar/compete in a limited rules environment with just one person (MMA match) but yet feel they are training to fight in a no rules environment against multiple opponents, who may be armed :rolleyes:

I don't think many people on this board would have that attitude. I'd hope most people would spar with all three ranges and also include a bit of multiple opponent training and weapon defence.

I guess if you just focus on a one on one situation you may start to over rely on techniques soley suited to that enviroment. While ground fighting will help you to get up off the ground quite quickly its not exactly going to be the place you want the fight to go.

I think just having a couple of even light sparring sessions against multiple opponents is a worthwhile investment for anyone.

Sparring against an opponent with a rubber blade quickly shows you how easy it is to get stabbed regardless of the amount of disarming techniques you thought would work.

I understand you guys at SBG take the STAB course (Maybe even teach) so its not like your relying solely on your competition training.

I think you need to have both the one on one training and the rest.

Of course the best approach is to just try and avoid those kinds of situations.

Skycat

I agree with most of the posts if not all of them,but I am now a little unclear as to the original post.I thought what was meant was actually being in a fight and not evading one.
In a confrontation always the best option is to get out of there no matter how used you are to fighting.Screw your pride.I think everyone would agree on that.
Being in an actual real fight with no holds barred and all that,the only thing that is important is your survival and I think until you are in that situation you'll never really know what you are capable of doing.Also if you a sober it probably helps.
Would it be different if you knew the other person or persons were going to kill you?

Baldie

Skycat wrote:

Would it be different if you knew the other person or persons were going to kill you?

Very good point Skycat. If i came across anyone who I thought was capable of anything like that I'd say to myself "OK, his guy is dangerous, be somewhere else"!

I was working behind a bar last year and a few guys walked in. They looked harmless enough so one of the other lads served them. Then about half an hour later we overheard them going on about killing people and whatnot. The manager then came back from his break and didn't he spot a screwdriver in your mans pocket! He refused to serve them then. he didn't tell them the real reason, just that they were too drunk.... the customer then went on the phone and was saying stuff like "ya, your man behind the bar in the white shirt..." of course we sh**e ourselves! We couldn't exactly have asked them to leave because a fight would have broken out and one of us would have been injured or killed.

My point anyway is that we knew these guys were trouble, and we couldn't run for it because we were behind the bar. The three of us downed a few brandy's when they left to calm us down. In a situation like that all that comes upon you is fear.......

john kavanagh

I guess if you just focus on a one on one situation you may start to over rely on techniques soley suited to that enviroment.

goal if fighting one person - finish fight ASAP
goal if fighting more than 1 person - see above

would you start 'playing' if just fighting one person? maybe show off a little bit, throw in some Ali shuffle footwork?? but then when fighting +1 you get serious? never understand this reasoning personally. if i'm fighting 1 person i'm gonna try put them away ASAP, preferably in the stand-up/clinch range but you never know so i have ground also. if its +1 then AGAIN i'm gonna try put them away ASAP - very slightly different tactics involved (foot work to try and fight 1 at a time) but this is negligible, the DELIVERY SYSTEMS remain constant, always.

I think just having a couple of even light sparring sessions against multiple opponents is a worthwhile investment for anyone.

agreed BUT i guarantee that the person best at the 1-1 MMA rules sparring also is the best at +1-1 sparring.

I wouldn't dare go to the ground in a street fight.

what idiot would chose to? but what if.....that's why you have ground training. example - Silva, one of the best p4p fighters on the planet, is allergic to the ground! finishes nearly all his fights with his thai style clinch and knees HOWEVER rather than stick his head in the sand regarding the ground he goes off and becomes an expert in ground fighting even though he is very rarely there, why? because WHAT IF????????

I understand you guys at SBG take the STAB course (Maybe even teach) so its not like your relying solely on your competition training.

to someone who already has a good 'sport' clinch game (judo, greco) it takes them about 10mins to understand the slight change in tactics involved BUT to someone with no clinch game then it takes them a LONG time - coincidentally about as long as it would take them to get a good clinch game, hmmmm i wonder why????

dent

john kavanagh wrote:

goal if fighting one person - finish fight ASAP
goal if fighting more than 1 person - see above

would you start 'playing' if just fighting one person? maybe show off a little bit, throw in some Ali shuffle footwork?? but then when fighting +1 you get serious? never understand this reasoning personally.

No of course not. Most of my training is one on one focused. I just like to add a little.

john kavanagh wrote:

if i'm fighting 1 person i'm gonna try put them away ASAP, preferably in the stand-up/clinch range but you never know so i have ground also.

Yes like I said you need the ground work as well. Just in case.

john kavanagh wrote:

if its +1 then AGAIN i'm gonna try put them away ASAP - very slightly different tactics involved (foot work to try and fight 1 at a time) but this is negligible, the DELIVERY SYSTEMS remain constant, always.

Yes I agree the delivery systems do remain constant. Foot work is the essential aspect but also some restraint can come in handy. Throwing or pushing one guy into another can give you that opening to run away

john kavanagh wrote:

agreed BUT i guarantee that the person best at the 1-1 MMA rules sparring also is the best at +1-1 sparring.

Well I'd guess I'd like to clone John Kavanagh and have one train in an Alive enviroment agains't multiple opponents while maintaining his one on one game. While the other just trains one on one. Place them in an enviroment against mutiple attackers and see who fairs better.

I'd like to think it would be the one who has that extra multiple opponent practise. Again I'm not saying only train with the mind set of facing multiple opponents. Just visiting it from time to time with your regular training can do no harm.

john kavanagh wrote:

to someone who already has a good 'sport' clinch game (judo, greco) it takes them about 10mins to understand the slight change in tactics involved BUT to someone with no clinch game then it takes them a LONG time - coincidentally about as long as it would take them to get a good clinch game, hmmmm i wonder why????

Hey why not Jujutsu (Really not sure how you practice non sporty clinch )

I agree with the clinch aspect. I'm not saying that the core elements needed
for this stuff aren't present in MMA. Just that you should take those 10 minutes to understand the slight changes you have to make

Keyzer

The sparrow never lands where the tiger roams.....

dent

Keyzer wrote:

The sparrow never lands where the tiger roams.....

But some tigers can climb trees

Roper

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

Some of the opinions expressed above are from pure fantasy land. How can you possibly tell what "might" be your best bet in a fight? Instead of spouting hypotheses based on what you "think", just train hard, enjoy it and hope what you're doing helps you if it has to.

dent

Roper wrote:

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

Some of the opinions expressed above are from pure fantasy land. How can you possibly tell what "might" be your best bet in a fight? Instead of spouting hypotheses based on what you "think", just train hard, enjoy it and hope what you're doing helps you if it has to.

I think its important to talk about this kind of topic. If you think someones opinion is one of pure fantasy you should tell them. Maybe that would be of greater help to them.

Baldie

Roper wrote:

just train hard, enjoy it and hope what you're doing helps you if it has to.

Well said.....

I never been in an actual street fight so, i can't talk from experience here....

SO200

What I'm curious about as a spectator is - is there anything the top fighters do in, say UFC, that they get away with because of the rules BUT that would land you in serious trouble if you found yourself in a "real" 1-1 situation where doin' a runner was not an immediate option. I'd imagine there's quite a few!

The example I thinking was the underhook clinch (sorry if the term is not right) where you are in close, your arms under his around his back with your legs partly spread. This seems common, but to my uninitiated eye is basically inviting a serious knee in the b***s.

john kavanagh

Foot work is the essential aspect but also some restraint can come in handy

'restraint' work best covered in good clinch training - that same judo-greco we were talking about.

Throwing or pushing one guy...

again covered in good judo/greco/FS training

Hey why not Jujutsu

well its not about the name, its about the training methods. its the training methods (much more so than the techniques) used in most good competitive judo/greco etc gyms which is what makes them so powerful in the clinch range. i've not trained with many 'Jujutsu' places but the few i have didn't have good training methods so none of them could actually pull off any of their techniques against a resisting opponent. i'm sure there's plenty out there but thats being my expierence to date.

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

too funny

What I'm curious about as a spectator is...

try out a good bjj/mma club and answer your own questions

Roper

Quote:
I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

too funny

Sometimes a man just can't help himself...

Dent,
About fantasy land stuff... this topic went from how to defend yourself to LOOK OUT! You might kill somebody!
Take a pro boxing match, two guys know for months before who they will be fighting. Their style, their reach, speed conditioning etc. So they devise a game plan based on exploiting the weaknesses of their opponent. Keep away from his jab, take the centre of the ring and so on. Now once they get in and the fight begins, it's an entirely different story and more often than not, plans are either defeated or go out the window.
Now people above are trying to imply that we can scenario train for an opponent of unknown attributes, unknown skills, unknown size and weight, and yes even unknown quantity; in an unknown place, with unknown features, unknown lighting, unknown footing, and in an unknown state ourselves.
That's what I mean by fantasy.

I'm not trying to pimp John here, but what he says about getting the fundamentals of each range and training in them properly is probably your best bet. Might take you a while to realise that though.....