"Real fights?"

pma-ire · 22-06-2005 10:07pm #1

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

Skycat · 22-06-2005 10:41pm

I don't know and it probably depends on the fighters,but here is what I think(for all it's worth)

I have been in a few street/pub fights as it were over the years.Never the initiator of course.I suppose what I learned and what most if not all people can do is to know when a real fight is about to occur and be ready,really ready,be able to think and not freeze up,take a punch and lastly know how to injure quickly,easily and efficiently.

I don't think any training will fully equip you to deal with all situations in a real fight,the fights themselves would be the real learning experience I reckon.

I have only trained in Boxing and studied Taiji Chuan.

I hope this does not ignite any fuses.

EPO_MAN · 22-06-2005 11:01pm

good question.
i think training can only take you so far...attitude and an iron will take you the rest.

Highly trained guys can freeze in an unregulated situation while a violent criminal who is used to violence will thrive.

I thinking training works to a degree but it needs to instill confidence.

I'm a better fighter due to my doorman experience (some unpleasant) as much as anything I learned in the dojo.
There i got to apply technique in real life but I also gained confidence and control of my adreniline in situations.

training, fitness and confidence in 3 double measures.

dlofnep · 22-06-2005 11:09pm

Are we talking 1 on 1? If so, all the elements of MMA will help you tenfold on the streets.

pma-ire · 23-06-2005 8:27am

dlofnep wrote:

Are we talking 1 on 1? If so, all the elements of MMA will help you tenfold on the streets.

Thing is with a real situation you can't just be thinking about the one person!

You have to think about there friends or anyone that just wants to join in?

So my question is directed to more than a one on one

IANOC · 23-06-2005 8:33am

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

2 things................

1. A cool head
2. a point of exit , if needed

dent · 23-06-2005 9:06am

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

I can see people having problems with the term "real fight". I'm going to assume you mean fighting in an uncontrolled environment.

I'd say control of your adrenaline is one of the most important. I have yet to meet anyone who stated they didn't shake uncontrollably after their first real fight.

Then I'd say plenty of sparing so you are reacting with instinct rather than trying to recreate some technique you practised once or twice.

The most important of course is a bit of street smarts. Look for a way out and take it if it arises.

I guess my biggest fear would be ending up in that situation with my girlfriend present. When you can't run and you have to stand and fight. In that situation I'd say be as nasty as you can.

Baldie · 23-06-2005 9:46am

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

The answer to your forst question is: a good pair of legs....

A treadmill would be handy....

I train in Ju-Jitsu and i have never been in a street fight (thank god, touch wood!) But if i was, then the first thing i'd do is try and run. I'd rather wake up next to my girlfriend in bed, then waking up beside her in a hospital bed with a knife wound.... You wouldn't know what people are carrying with them these days....

It's always safer to walk away from a fight. You should only use your training when you really have to... like when your exit is not clear....

dlofnep · 23-06-2005 9:54am

pma-ire wrote:

Thing is with a real situation you can't just be thinking about the one person!

Well, if multiple people are going to attack you and you can't run away you're ****ed. Nothing you can do - Nothing will help you, unless you're in the matrix.

mark.leonard · 23-06-2005 9:58am

My advice? Don't bother! Street encounter is too unpredictable, and when anything can happen a lot of the time - bad things happen!

john kavanagh · 23-06-2005 12:41pm

yeah but what if....

Thing is with a real situation you can't just be thinking about the one person!

before i understood i used to find it amazing the amount of people who won't spar/compete in a limited rules environment with just one person (MMA match) but yet feel they are training to fight in a no rules environment against multiple opponents, who may be armed :rolleyes:

don't let the first time your body expierences that rush of adrenaline and other 'fight or flight' chemicals be a 'real' situation

Face your Fear. Face Yourself. Grow.

SO200 · 23-06-2005 2:01pm

Hi just joined the board!

No experience in marial arts but often when looking at my collection of UFC DVDs I've thought on how some of the skills displayed could be used in real situations.

Some of these guys can execute a take-down within seconds and although the fight continues on the ground I'd imagine a fast and skillful take down on cement in a real situation would be "game over" for an attacker.

Couple of things that trouble me though are "clinches" and the "legs-open" defensive position on the ground. It seems both of these would leave you very vulnerable to an attack in the groin area but they both seem integral to MMA.

Any thoughts ?

Baldie · 23-06-2005 2:06pm

99% of street fights would rarely go to the ground. If they did then you would be wide open for kicks or bottles off "the mates"..... When your opponent does go to the ground, that's your chance to leggit!!

Damo W · 23-06-2005 2:39pm

Spot on Mark, no matter how well prepared you are there is always the x-factor that is outside of ones control.

A points I wish to raise, possibly extraneous to this thread but I feel should be highlighted

When talking about self defence/protection there always seems to be an over emphasis on the physical, confrontation occurs when an individuals can’t co-exist happily with one another, (when one understands the consequences of a violent struggle and) when ‘EGO’ is removed, the likelihood of a confrontation is reduced to pure chance, this has been the goal of what popular commentators now call TMA.
Should all instructors who indicate that self-defence is part of what they offer consider this?

[To build moral character-its social aim; discover and overcome the source human weakness-its philosophical nature; and finally, to know inner peace-its spiritual essence. Every facet of this practice is a message far greater than the physical conduit through which it is delivered.]

Naos · 23-06-2005 2:39pm

Baldie: What complete and utter crap.

Where do you get these figures from?
Ever watch street fights on the internet? A vast majority go to the ground.
And you studying in JiuJitsu.. Should be a nice little gameplan of yours if the situation is feasible.

JohnK: Very good post, totally agree. Reason I want to join an MMA league when I return.

Baldie · 23-06-2005 2:45pm

Do you know that 99% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

Hey look that's just my opinion. I wouldn't dare go to the ground in a street fight..... I'd prefer to keep it standing and finsh it with some vicious knees to the face.

Giblet · 23-06-2005 2:52pm

The first thing is always "How do I get out of here?"
Most fights will be very close quarters and you won't have any room to do anything, you need to put yourself in a situation where you can run even while involved in a hold. That's what usually happens, alot of grabbing and pushing someone off their balance and running is the best plan. Most fights probably don't last very long (The "build up" is long maybe slagging or getting right up to your face) You should always be ready for someone hitting you first and you should only hit someone to enable you to get out of the situation. Most people probably think you should hit someone the second you sense they are on your case but usually you should try talk them down. You have to think about being rounded up later by the police, especially if it was in a pub or just outside one.

You will get out of breath very quickly even if you are fit so running as soon as you can will be the best option. Most people I know usually get really pissed off and want to return to the fight! Adrenalin speaking.

Remember, it only takes a second to hit you with a bottle if you are unguarded.

KTRIC · 23-06-2005 2:55pm

It's all well and good saying what you would do in an uncontrolled fight but I think the most important part of the statement is "uncontrolled". The odd's of you killing someone in self defence are quite high, especially if you have martial arts training and then you are a murderer. It is hard to prove who started the fight if it's a 1 on 1.

For this reason I tend to try and get out of a fight as quick as possible if one starts as I know when things get heated someone allways goes one step to far.

dent · 23-06-2005 3:10pm

john kavanagh wrote:

before i understood i used to find it amazing the amount of people who won't spar/compete in a limited rules environment with just one person (MMA match) but yet feel they are training to fight in a no rules environment against multiple opponents, who may be armed :rolleyes:

I don't think many people on this board would have that attitude. I'd hope most people would spar with all three ranges and also include a bit of multiple opponent training and weapon defence.

I guess if you just focus on a one on one situation you may start to over rely on techniques soley suited to that enviroment. While ground fighting will help you to get up off the ground quite quickly its not exactly going to be the place you want the fight to go.

I think just having a couple of even light sparring sessions against multiple opponents is a worthwhile investment for anyone.

Sparring against an opponent with a rubber blade quickly shows you how easy it is to get stabbed regardless of the amount of disarming techniques you thought would work.

I understand you guys at SBG take the STAB course (Maybe even teach) so its not like your relying solely on your competition training.

I think you need to have both the one on one training and the rest.

Of course the best approach is to just try and avoid those kinds of situations.

Skycat · 23-06-2005 3:27pm

I agree with most of the posts if not all of them,but I am now a little unclear as to the original post.I thought what was meant was actually being in a fight and not evading one.
In a confrontation always the best option is to get out of there no matter how used you are to fighting.Screw your pride.I think everyone would agree on that.
Being in an actual real fight with no holds barred and all that,the only thing that is important is your survival and I think until you are in that situation you'll never really know what you are capable of doing.Also if you a sober it probably helps.
Would it be different if you knew the other person or persons were going to kill you?

Baldie · 23-06-2005 3:46pm

Skycat wrote:

Would it be different if you knew the other person or persons were going to kill you?

Very good point Skycat. If i came across anyone who I thought was capable of anything like that I'd say to myself "OK, his guy is dangerous, be somewhere else"!

I was working behind a bar last year and a few guys walked in. They looked harmless enough so one of the other lads served them. Then about half an hour later we overheard them going on about killing people and whatnot. The manager then came back from his break and didn't he spot a screwdriver in your mans pocket! He refused to serve them then. he didn't tell them the real reason, just that they were too drunk.... the customer then went on the phone and was saying stuff like "ya, your man behind the bar in the white shirt..." of course we sh**e ourselves! We couldn't exactly have asked them to leave because a fight would have broken out and one of us would have been injured or killed.

My point anyway is that we knew these guys were trouble, and we couldn't run for it because we were behind the bar. The three of us downed a few brandy's when they left to calm us down. In a situation like that all that comes upon you is fear.......

john kavanagh · 23-06-2005 4:00pm

I guess if you just focus on a one on one situation you may start to over rely on techniques soley suited to that enviroment.

goal if fighting one person - finish fight ASAP
goal if fighting more than 1 person - see above

would you start 'playing' if just fighting one person? maybe show off a little bit, throw in some Ali shuffle footwork?? but then when fighting +1 you get serious? never understand this reasoning personally. if i'm fighting 1 person i'm gonna try put them away ASAP, preferably in the stand-up/clinch range but you never know so i have ground also. if its +1 then AGAIN i'm gonna try put them away ASAP - very slightly different tactics involved (foot work to try and fight 1 at a time) but this is negligible, the DELIVERY SYSTEMS remain constant, always.

I think just having a couple of even light sparring sessions against multiple opponents is a worthwhile investment for anyone.

agreed BUT i guarantee that the person best at the 1-1 MMA rules sparring also is the best at +1-1 sparring.

I wouldn't dare go to the ground in a street fight.

what idiot would chose to? but what if.....that's why you have ground training. example - Silva, one of the best p4p fighters on the planet, is allergic to the ground! finishes nearly all his fights with his thai style clinch and knees HOWEVER rather than stick his head in the sand regarding the ground he goes off and becomes an expert in ground fighting even though he is very rarely there, why? because WHAT IF????????

I understand you guys at SBG take the STAB course (Maybe even teach) so its not like your relying solely on your competition training.

to someone who already has a good 'sport' clinch game (judo, greco) it takes them about 10mins to understand the slight change in tactics involved BUT to someone with no clinch game then it takes them a LONG time - coincidentally about as long as it would take them to get a good clinch game, hmmmm i wonder why????

dent · 23-06-2005 4:24pm

john kavanagh wrote:

goal if fighting one person - finish fight ASAP
goal if fighting more than 1 person - see above

would you start 'playing' if just fighting one person? maybe show off a little bit, throw in some Ali shuffle footwork?? but then when fighting +1 you get serious? never understand this reasoning personally.

No of course not. Most of my training is one on one focused. I just like to add a little.

john kavanagh wrote:

if i'm fighting 1 person i'm gonna try put them away ASAP, preferably in the stand-up/clinch range but you never know so i have ground also.

Yes like I said you need the ground work as well. Just in case.

john kavanagh wrote:

if its +1 then AGAIN i'm gonna try put them away ASAP - very slightly different tactics involved (foot work to try and fight 1 at a time) but this is negligible, the DELIVERY SYSTEMS remain constant, always.

Yes I agree the delivery systems do remain constant. Foot work is the essential aspect but also some restraint can come in handy. Throwing or pushing one guy into another can give you that opening to run away

john kavanagh wrote:

agreed BUT i guarantee that the person best at the 1-1 MMA rules sparring also is the best at +1-1 sparring.

Well I'd guess I'd like to clone John Kavanagh and have one train in an Alive enviroment agains't multiple opponents while maintaining his one on one game. While the other just trains one on one. Place them in an enviroment against mutiple attackers and see who fairs better.

I'd like to think it would be the one who has that extra multiple opponent practise. Again I'm not saying only train with the mind set of facing multiple opponents. Just visiting it from time to time with your regular training can do no harm.

john kavanagh wrote:

to someone who already has a good 'sport' clinch game (judo, greco) it takes them about 10mins to understand the slight change in tactics involved BUT to someone with no clinch game then it takes them a LONG time - coincidentally about as long as it would take them to get a good clinch game, hmmmm i wonder why????

Hey why not Jujutsu (Really not sure how you practice non sporty clinch )

I agree with the clinch aspect. I'm not saying that the core elements needed
for this stuff aren't present in MMA. Just that you should take those 10 minutes to understand the slight changes you have to make

Keyzer · 23-06-2005 4:27pm

The sparrow never lands where the tiger roams.....

dent · 23-06-2005 4:29pm

Keyzer wrote:

The sparrow never lands where the tiger roams.....

But some tigers can climb trees

Roper · 23-06-2005 4:29pm

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

Some of the opinions expressed above are from pure fantasy land. How can you possibly tell what "might" be your best bet in a fight? Instead of spouting hypotheses based on what you "think", just train hard, enjoy it and hope what you're doing helps you if it has to.

dent · 23-06-2005 4:34pm

Roper wrote:

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

Some of the opinions expressed above are from pure fantasy land. How can you possibly tell what "might" be your best bet in a fight? Instead of spouting hypotheses based on what you "think", just train hard, enjoy it and hope what you're doing helps you if it has to.

I think its important to talk about this kind of topic. If you think someones opinion is one of pure fantasy you should tell them. Maybe that would be of greater help to them.

Baldie · 23-06-2005 4:34pm

Roper wrote:

just train hard, enjoy it and hope what you're doing helps you if it has to.

Well said.....

I never been in an actual street fight so, i can't talk from experience here....

SO200 · 23-06-2005 4:59pm

What I'm curious about as a spectator is - is there anything the top fighters do in, say UFC, that they get away with because of the rules BUT that would land you in serious trouble if you found yourself in a "real" 1-1 situation where doin' a runner was not an immediate option. I'd imagine there's quite a few!

The example I thinking was the underhook clinch (sorry if the term is not right) where you are in close, your arms under his around his back with your legs partly spread. This seems common, but to my uninitiated eye is basically inviting a serious knee in the b***s.

john kavanagh · 23-06-2005 5:20pm

Foot work is the essential aspect but also some restraint can come in handy

'restraint' work best covered in good clinch training - that same judo-greco we were talking about.

Throwing or pushing one guy...

again covered in good judo/greco/FS training

Hey why not Jujutsu

well its not about the name, its about the training methods. its the training methods (much more so than the techniques) used in most good competitive judo/greco etc gyms which is what makes them so powerful in the clinch range. i've not trained with many 'Jujutsu' places but the few i have didn't have good training methods so none of them could actually pull off any of their techniques against a resisting opponent. i'm sure there's plenty out there but thats being my expierence to date.

I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

too funny

What I'm curious about as a spectator is...

try out a good bjj/mma club and answer your own questions

Roper · 23-06-2005 6:07pm

Quote:
I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I've been down this road. But i will say this.

too funny

Sometimes a man just can't help himself...

Dent,
About fantasy land stuff... this topic went from how to defend yourself to LOOK OUT! You might kill somebody!
Take a pro boxing match, two guys know for months before who they will be fighting. Their style, their reach, speed conditioning etc. So they devise a game plan based on exploiting the weaknesses of their opponent. Keep away from his jab, take the centre of the ring and so on. Now once they get in and the fight begins, it's an entirely different story and more often than not, plans are either defeated or go out the window.
Now people above are trying to imply that we can scenario train for an opponent of unknown attributes, unknown skills, unknown size and weight, and yes even unknown quantity; in an unknown place, with unknown features, unknown lighting, unknown footing, and in an unknown state ourselves.
That's what I mean by fantasy.

I'm not trying to pimp John here, but what he says about getting the fundamentals of each range and training in them properly is probably your best bet. Might take you a while to realise that though.....

dent · 23-06-2005 6:20pm

Roper wrote:

That's what I mean by fantasy.

I'm not trying to pimp John here, but what he says about getting the fundamentals of each range and training in them properly is probably your best bet. Might take you a while to realise that though.....

Hey we pretty much agreed with each other

He even agreed that there is no harm in

"I think just having a couple of even light sparring sessions against multiple opponents is a worthwhile investment for anyone."

I agree with the fundamentals of each range. I think you'll find I've always being with you guys on that one. Find me a post where I have not said that

Didn't think there is any element of fantasy in

1.Run away
2. Don't get involved
3. Get into a position where you can run away
4. My above quote about occasional multiple opponent sparring.

Thats it

dent · 23-06-2005 6:24pm

john kavanagh wrote:

try out a good bjj/mma club and answer your own questions

I'd love to but there are not that many around. At least on the north side anyway. I keep planning to drop down to Rathmines but one thing or another has gotten in the way.

I am quite open to everything I have even done a seminar with your good self and I was very impressed. Jujutsu club in Raheny.

Roper · 23-06-2005 7:07pm

I think you'll find I've always being with you guys on that one.

Who's "you guys"?

padraigcarroll · 23-06-2005 7:21pm

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

How do you train to achive this?

For real/streetfights fights i think you need 4 essential things,

1.Hit first if possible
2.The head but (quick as u can get in there before it kicks off)
3.Fingers in the eyes (again as quick as possible its a fight ender at any time in the fight but u gott be willing to do it, nice and deep leave feeling bad for afterwards)
4.Get safe asap afterwards

How do you train? you dont, really, only way is to get into enough fights so it becomes second nature, which isnt a great idea.

However mma training etc is perfect to have u in good physical condition with skills that will help you think clearly during a fight.

memphis · 23-06-2005 9:07pm

Good question Paul.

I'm sure alot of ye will remember me mention an incident where I came out with a blackeye, cos I was jumped/attacked (or whatever way yo wanna put it) afer a night on the beer. Anyway, since that incident I am very wary of avoiding fights. I'm not the violent type, and never have been, ok, I may shout my mouth off when drunk, but I don't go looking for trouble.

I think the most important thing about a real fight, is not about having a huge set of balls (sorry ladies), but about avoiding the fight. Its about knowing the situation, and trying to calm that situation, walking away, settling the problem coolly, and calmly, etc.

If that doesn't work, you should have the confdence, and ability to knock the guy, and quickly disappear.

john kavanagh · 23-06-2005 9:48pm

I'd love to but there are not that many around. At least on the north side anyway. I keep planning to drop down to Rathmines

try out andy ryan's training group in finglas

there's no mma/bjj in rathmines - but i'm right next door in harolds cross

Dave Joyce · 23-06-2005 11:53pm

Some people in my opinion have got the wrong idea as regards this thread. I presume Paul meant this type of situation when you have no choice but to fight. Seems to me Random Unprovoked Attacks (usually by multiple opponents!!!) are becoming more commonplace. A lot of people have said ....but when things get heated. If things are at that stage and you truely don't want to fight then you should have already walked away if you want to avoid confrontation.
If on the other hand you for whatever reason you have NO OPTION but to fight then in the words of Geoff Thompson (one of the best on this whole area IMO) "hit first and hit hardest". However, contrary to what some people have said scenario based training does have a PLACE here.
And as regards facing down one opponent, if you are confronted by multiple opponents you are going to find it a lot harder to walk away from this type of situation. We recently trained again with Guro Carl Atienza of Atienza Kali who specialises in multiple opponent fighting. They were brought up in Queens NY at the height of the crack epidemic and every fight they were in involved multiple opponents/weapons as the guys said it was one crazy place. So their father trained them for that type of scenario. If you want to see some of their stuff in practise take a look at www.atienzakali.com and believe these guys can do it. I'm not btw saying that this material can be learned in 3 months but you should see these guys in action.
Lastly for the guys worrying about post fight consequences, you won't have to worry because you will be DEAD! Better to judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Colm_OReilly · 24-06-2005 6:25pm

What was the point of this thread Paul?

Peace,
Colm

pma-ire · 24-06-2005 8:19pm

Colm_OReilly wrote:

What was the point of this thread Paul?

Peace,
Colm

Healthy debate Man

I do intend to put my part into this thread. But I'm not getting much time on the net with the new job! Weekends are even messed up at the moment!

I will post asap.

But I have thought the replies have been top :cool: and I don't see why you have to question my reasons for starting the thread?

Musashi · 24-06-2005 9:22pm

"What do you need to survive in a real fight"

It's your eyes,ears and what's between them !

What do I win?
This was a riddle right???

pma-ire · 24-06-2005 10:47pm

Sorry for not getting back to you lads!! But I'm here now:D

So what did I mean?

pma-ire wrote:

What do you need to survive in a real fight?

This question was based in the time after trying to get out of the conflict by any means but fighting. The fight has started a strike has been thrust towards you.

Yes, not fighting is the ideal result and is the best result for everyone. But I was not talking about the pre-fight stage (maybe for another thread??).

Many people say "Run Away"!! Yes, thats fine! But they can run also, so you have to go for hit and run techniques. These can be anything that will cause the attacker to be unballanced or fall to the ground. While you make your get away. In my case I cannot run very fast for very far, so I would have to work on hit and walk(away fast) moves

. This has to involve short and fast responces levelled hopefully to the level of attack on my person. But all with the idea of unballancing and discourging the attacker.

The next thing you have to think about is the odds...

1. The longer the fight goes on, the higher the odds are that you will get hurt badly.

2. He could have friends who might not be obvious to you. But come out of nowhere and want to join in.

3. You need to have some basics covered in all the ranges, incase the fight goes there, because again you want to end the situation as fast as you can. eg. a lot of people say that most fights go to the ground! I would say that fights only go to the ground when neither person can take control of the situation and cannot defend against attacks in the different ranges.

Also some people do like to take it there.

4. You don't know the frame of mind of the attacker? Do they want to kill me? Do they want to just hit me? (they might just end up doing a lot of damage without meaning it??)

5. They might have a weapon (Knife most likely weapon if they are carrying, syringe being the worst. If they have a gun, they would pull it out from the start) and you don't want to let them get the chance to use it.

pma-ire wrote:

How do you train to achive this?

You need to build up drills of random adaptation with deliveries that are gonna give you the quickest results. This can be done by firstly working slowly with a semi-compliant partner reacting to your movements and strikes. Your goal being to unballance or put them down quickly.

Another point we have to consider is who we are most likely to be fighting? I would hope that we would not be fighting fellow MA'ists! As this would mean that those persons would be abusing the skills learnt in the training hall and there instructor. No, attackers are more likely to be folks with to much to drink and not able to control there heads. (Also sometimes it could be friends or family which is sticky and may involve more evasion and control)

Also you must think about the most common first attacks thrown by folk not in the Martial Arts.

These would be...

1. A haymaker punch (or bogger punch). You always find when you ask a MA'ist to throw a punch that it comes at you in a straight line! When most people just throw big swings like in that vid link posted this week, and mostly with the right hand first.

2. A football kick. Again you ask a MA'ist to throw a front kick and it come at you in a straight line. When most people just throw there legs in the most common way they know from playing football. This also goes for groin kicks. Also mostly with the right leg.

3. Diving in and grabbing around the waist to throw you to the ground. This is not the slick move of the grappler. But a person throwing themselves onto the ground while trying to pull you down there also.

At closer ranges...

4. Headbutts.

5. Knees.

6. Elbows.

Sometimes grabbing you by the clothes or body with one or two hands and following with...

7. A headbutt.

8. A knee.

9. A haymaker.

10. An elbow (not that much though).

These can be classed as being different to the strikes done without being grabbed first, because the attacker has given away one or two of there striking tools.

Then we have the ones that can be put on you blindside...

11. Headlocks and chokes. Both standing and sidelocks.

12. Pushes that casue you to fall to the ground.

Then taking what has been learnt in that enviroment and applying it in sparring with your partner. Where you will find out if what you have works under pressure? If it don't work, then is it because you need to time the response better with a bit of drilling? Or is because it will not work on a person this size but will on someone smaller/bigger? Or is it because it just won't work under pressure?

This can be applied with all your training and should not be much different to what most people do every training night? Pressure testing is what keeps you real! Because you must also see what works for you, as something that works for someone else may not work for you? But if you don't test it under pressure and you use that responce for real you could be in for a nasty shock.

On the fact that some folk don't think that learning drills do you any good? I can't see any reason to think like this?

What does drilling do? It trains your brain to direct your body in an almost auto response to your choice of delivery. The drills (both static and in motion) should be teaching you how to land the best deliveries on a target, and when in motion the adaptation for your delivery or responce to the movement of the opponent.

And always being aware of back-offs. I use to find that I got attacked by guys thinking that they could have me because I'm 5' 7", fat, have glasses and I'm bald also!! Easy!!

After a few quick responses most folk would back off saying how sorry they were and they made a mistake :rolleyes: B*ST*RDS!! :mad:

Musashi · 25-06-2005 10:44am

Okay, this will tie in a bit with stuff I already posted on the Takedowns thread but what harm.

If the fight is on,for definite the first blow has been thrown,then this simplifies matters for us!
To understand the shortcomings of most drills, we need look no further than Col. J. Boyd's OODA Cycle. This "cycle" is the process by which the brain receives an input (stimulus) and analyzes that input as to its relevance to the individual, decides on a course of action, and then performs that action.

OODA stands for:

O: Observe - the initial input of a stimulus which can be visual, auditory, or tactile, etc.

O: Orient - this stage is where the brain examines what effect this stimulus can possibly have on the individual (does it pose a threat, does it involve me, etc.)

Decide - this, the most time-consuming stage of the OODA process, is where you choose a course of action based on your analysis of the stimulus. You may decide that no action is needed, or choose from other options (run, fight, etc.) Hick's Law of Neurophysiology states that reaction time increases by 58% by having only two choices to make, so you can see the problem created by MA styles that brag of "thousands of techniques".

A: Act - this is where you implement your decision. This part is simple compared to the middle of the OODA Cycle.

With a blow thrown we should now be at the Act stage of the cycle,and our realistic pressure testing and Scenario Drills Should make the acting part an automatic response.Nothing worse than training away for years in a hall and when a real fight kicks off the startle response freezes you to the spot!

In traditional drills, you know the "rules". You know what type of attack(s) will be used, you know what you will do to respond, and you know how and when the drill ends. Now, place yourself at the "end of the line", having watched 10 of your fellow trainees defend themselves against the front punch (for example). By the time your turn arrives, you know exactly what you intend to do, and have rehearsed it in your mind. All that remains is to ACT (A). You do not have to assess the situation in any way. This concept applies to the way in which some schools/instructors conduct drills in all phases of SD training, including knife and gun work. While these drills teach precision of response, etc., they do not mimic the way in which you will need to perform when confronted with the real thing outside the dojo. Outside the dojo, none of the "setting" is pre-determined. You must assess each new experience on its own, and without seeing any other trainees attempt their own "answer".

Successful drills for the street, which never look as precise or "slick" as the staged drills, remove any anticipation of the event from the setting.Even full contact fights in a sports setting are already at the Act stage as you already know the range, weapons, and limitations your opponent will follow? Why is it that you both know that you are going to engage in fighting with mutual consent? The DECISIONS have already been made.

This is what makes random street attacks harder for most MA,boxers etc. to deal with.The actual fight part is easy,it's having to make the decision as to whether this is far enough and now your going to run/fight is the hard part.
I mentioned in the other thread about a scummer whose tactic was to ask a question then strike.This is dealt with by Geoff Thompson in his work on "Trigger Phrases".Though he doesn't refer to the OODA loop afaik,the effect is the same.You or your opponnent hear the question and the observe/orient stage is reached.Now Thompson advises that you do the asking but use the question as your trigger to act.You've decided to hit the guy,ask your question and as it finishes you hit him.It's like a sucker punching move.
Before your guy is wound up to strike you but you know what's coming,for example,point to his side and look there,while watching him in peripheral vision."Is that your Tenner??" and straight in with your strike giving you the opening you need to leg it!If it puts the guy a split second behind you,he's at O while your on A,then even if he's super fast he can't block your strike.
This is a thugging tactic used against them,put them in a bad position and yourself in a better one to ensure your goals (escape in this case) are achieved with the least effort or danger to yourself.

Right,I've waffled on enough,any comments or questions lads feel free to fire away!

Millionaire · 25-06-2005 2:56pm

How did I manage to miss out on this thread!!!

some great points on here for all.

I think most fights (unless some one gets a good or a few good shots in) will end up in a clinch range. (blast kness, head and elbow in RAT system). after that if fight still on, your going to the ground. like it or not.

Point is you should (if your totally serious out RBSD) you got to train for all ranges.

I noticed in some reality drills we did, from verbal up , to shouting, to unexpected attack. after initial strikes , it ends up in clinch or some sort (no matter how much I try to avoid this).

Get some head gear on, back into corner of gym, get 2 training partners (bigger the better) with mma or bad gloves. go from verbal to all out unexpected attack from the 2 attackers. now thats a great drill to practice and see what happens. sure it is sloppy scrappy all over the place...just like the real thing. and the adrenlin bes a rockin!

anyone got any other reality drills they practice????

Colm_OReilly · 28-06-2005 1:15pm

I don't see why you have to question my reasons for starting the thread?

Just trying to understand your motivation and intent

Roper · 28-06-2005 1:35pm

Man they are some long, technical posts......

The de-escalation side has always interested me in terms of SD more than the actual "moves".
I study psychology so the instinctive and not so instinctive reactions of an individual are of interest. As for the haymaker/headlock options. I think you can take it as read that everyone prepares for each option in some way, but I think attempting to recreate a street environment in a dojo is a less then empirical way of going about it.

Musashi · 28-06-2005 9:29pm

Roper,
If you've not already come across them you might like to check out 'Blink, The Power of Thinking Without Thinking' by Malcolm Gladwell and 'Deep Survival, Who Lives, Who Dies and Why' by Laurence Gonzales.

They are more about how and why decisions are made rather than purely geared toward SD,though can be brought to bear on that type of situation.How the brain works under stress, a lot like Geoff Thompsons "Animal Day" training or indeed the padded assailant scenario training if you want to play with that!

"Blink" concerns itself with heuristics, the rules-of-thumb that we use to make snap-judgments and to simplify our decision-making (things that occur within a "blink"). Violent situations often have characteristics of Chaotic systems, namely "sensitivity to initial conditions." The decisions made in the very beginning of the situation can have extraordinarily amplified effects on the final outcome. This is where heuristics come in.

The science of heuristics and the ways that heuristics can be enhanced or modified by training (this is different from "startle-flinch" type stuff) is a very important emerging field within the larger discipline of decision science. Gladwell gives some very interesting case study examples in "Blink." Some readers may be familiar with his famous book "The Tipping Point."

My favourite startle/Flinch response, I was showing PMA at the Rick Clarke Seminar,is a bit like the "Drunken monkey" stuff in the ISR Matrix of SBG.I guess there's only so many ways of doing things right

"Real fights?"

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