Darth Vader is crap in ep4

dearg_doom · 27-05-2005 01:57PM #1

... in comparison to the rest of the films he's in:)

I just rented the trilogy to rewatch them for the first time in about 5years after seeing ep3, and watching A New Hope I couldn't believe how **** he was!

Firstly his helmet isn't shiny, it's almost matte black!

His voice isn't as cool,

And worst of all, he isn't the top guy, he is ranked below Tarkin, who berates him like an inferior rank!!

When it was over I was thinking WTF??? was SW ****e all along? ep5 was my (obvious:)) favourite and I was getting skeptical as to whether it'd be any good.

Then I put it on, and after the monster bit, the music starts, we see Vader on his new HUUUGE ship, and his helmet is shinier than a ****ing mirror.

He's ace in ep5, the ultimate bad guy, killing without remorse, cool voice, choosing his words a lot more carefully and best of all he is the head honcho.

Just wondered if any of ye thought Vader was a bit crap in ep4?

TerrorFirmer · 28-05-2005 01:23AM

Not really.....

Tbh that opening scene was the best introduction to a movie cast "bad guy" that I've ever seen.

The only thing I found pathetic was the lightsaber duel, choregraphed oh so poorly.

His voice is a little different though.

Anyway,

And worst of all, he isn't the top guy, he is ranked below Tarkin, who berates him like an inferior rank!!

This puzzled and still does puzzle me. Especially after seeing EpIII.
- I dont think Vader/Anakin would have let himself be relegated to second place, especially not below a human with no grasp of the force whatsoever

Oh well.

I still think its a great movie, Vader included.

28-05-2005 01:32AM

MobileInfantry wrote:

Not really.....

This puzzled and still does puzzle me. Especially after seeing EpIII.
- I dont think Vader/Anakin would have let himself be relegated to second place, especially not below a human with no grasp of the force whatsoever

Hm, yeah that's strange. But maybe he just held Tarkin in high regard as a strategist and so allowed him to make some decisions for him.

Pigman II · 28-05-2005 11:47AM

It's never really stated that Tarkin is Vaders c/o (Leia makes a jibe about it is all). I get the impression they were both colleagues on the same level more or less.

You don't really see Tarkin barking orders at Vader and any action Vader takes during the film seems to be off his own bat. For example when Vader decides to go after Kenobi he tells Tarkin what he's gonna do, but he doesn't exactly wait around looking for permission and when he decides to get involved in the battle of Yavin it wasn't on the back of a Tarkin order. If anything Tarkin was indifferent to the whole situation.

So if anything the Emperor is the only character we see Vader act subserviently to on-screen.

TerrorFirmer · 28-05-2005 04:31PM

Pigman II wrote:

It's never really stated that Tarkin is Vaders c/o (Leia makes a jibe about it is all). I get the impression they were both colleagues on the same level more or less.

You don't really see Tarkin barking orders at Vader and any action Vader takes during the film seems to be off his own bat. For example when Vader decides to go after Kenobi he tells Tarkin what he's gonna do, but he doesn't exactly wait around looking for permission and when he decides to get involved in the battle of Yavin it wasn't on the back of a Tarkin order. If anything Tarkin was indifferent to the whole situation.

So if anything the Emperor is the only character we see Vader act subserviently to on-screen.

Theres a scene where Vader is choking another officer, and Tarkin says "Vader! Thats enough!"

Vader obeys him and releases him.

Sounds like a superior officer to me.

iguana · 28-05-2005 04:33PM

dearg_doom wrote:

Firstly his helmet isn't shiny, it's almost matte black!

Well obviously THAT makes all the difference!

OY · 28-05-2005 04:35PM

Forgive my ignorance but who is Tarkin and are you talking about a scene in EP3 where he is placed above vadar? If so what scene?

Zombienosh · 28-05-2005 04:37PM

OY wrote:

Forgive my ignorance but who is Tarkin and are you talking about a scene in EP3 where he is placed above vadar? If so what scene?

The scene where, a soldier at the table makes a joke about the force, and Vader starts choking him using it.

Pigman II · 28-05-2005 04:44PM

MobileInfantry wrote:

Theres a scene where Vader is choking another officer, and Tarkin says "Vader! Thats enough!"

Vader obeys him and releases him.

Sounds like a superior officer to me.

If you were beating down on someone on the street and your friend beside you said 'MobileInfantry, that's enough!' you wouldn't think to yourself 'hey, wait a minut that guy isn't my boss, so I'll just keep doing this'. You'd probably stop what you were doing because you were getting the voice of reason from a friend/colleague.

TerrorFirmer · 28-05-2005 06:54PM

Pigman II wrote:

If you were beating down on someone on the street and your friend beside you said 'MobileInfantry, that's enough!' you wouldn't think to yourself 'hey, wait a minut that guy isn't my boss, so I'll just keep doing this'. You'd probably stop what you were doing because you were getting the voice of reason from a friend/colleague.

Hardly a just comparison!

Think about it. Its Star Wars. And its VADER.

Tarkin is the only person in the entire movie to check vader - ie tell him thats enough, and also he says "You better be right Vader, I'm taking an awful risk"

Everyone else is simply afraid of him.

I can't imagine that anyone of rank that was not above Vader challenging his actions.

Considering we saw he almost killed someone for suggesting the force was an ancient and stupid religion.

Originally Posted by dearg_doom
Firstly his helmet isn't shiny, it's almost matte black!

It looks like that in the very first scene on Leias ship, but after that both his mask and voice change somewhat. Helmet becomes more shiny. Voice becomes more deep and mechanical.

angelofdeath · 28-05-2005 07:04PM

tarkin was the commander of the death star and vader was sent by sidious to oversee construction and to keep an eye on him

Steven · 28-05-2005 07:11PM

So what you're saying is that his helmet becomes shiny after we see leia?
There are so many ways to be banned using that sentence

Tarkin may have been crossing the line, but Vader made up for it in true inferiority complex style by killing other people for little reason

Pigman II · 28-05-2005 08:50PM

tarkin was the commander of the death star and vader was sent by sidious to oversee construction and to keep an eye on him

Exactly! I probably phrased it badly when I introduced the term 'friends' but the basic point of my arguement is that Vader was not answerable to Tarkin. They had a working relationship. Tarkin was high up enough to be able to voice his opinion on Vaders actions (and perhaps even influence DV in his decsions) but he had no direct control over him.

Tarkin is the only person in the entire movie to check vader - ie tell him thats enough,

Just a suggestion by Tarkin imho. After all Vaders line 'as you wish' didn't sound much like the response one would give to a direct order from a superior.

and also he says "You better be right Vader, I'm taking an awful risk"

If anything that suggests that Vader is in command. After all DV's now getting Tarkin to do things that are putting his own operation at risk and making him act against his better judgement.

//

Whatever the relationship is tho, my own opinion is arrived on by the evidence that at no point in this entire movie does:
1) Vader address Tarkin as a superior. Plenty of other people call Tarkin 'sir' throughout.
2) Tarkin address Vader as a subordinate
3) Tarkin give Vader a direct order.

That's how I've arrived at my conclusion and that's what I'm sticking to

dearg_doom · 31-05-2005 12:43PM

iguana wrote:

Well obviously THAT makes all the difference!

I thought it was a bit dissappointing!

If you watch ep4+5 one after the other there's a striking difference between Vader's helmet(:)), voice, choice of words(most importantly for me), and actions.

He stops choking your man when Tarkin tells him, but in ep5 it's like he gets Tesco ClubCard points for every officer he drops:) he truly is bad-ass!

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 04-06-2005 07:13PM

I watched EP4 there yesterday... wow, that lightsaber duel was so shíte compared to what we've seen in the first three.
No somersaults or spinny-overhead moves at all.
George Lucas needs to get off his ass and digitally re-re-master some proper fight sequences in there.

Steven wrote:

So what you're saying is that his helmet becomes shiny after we see leia?

LMAO nice one

aidan_walsh · 04-06-2005 07:16PM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

I watched EP4 there yesterday... wow, that lightsaber duel was so shíte compared to what we've seen in the first three.
No somersaults or spinny-overhead moves at all.
George Lucas needs to get off his ass and digitally re-re-master some proper fight sequences in there.

No. No he really, really doesn't.

TerrorFirmer · 04-06-2005 07:18PM

aidan_walsh wrote:

No. No he really, really doesn't.

Yeah, he does!

The old effects mean that its hard to watch all 6 movies in order and find them fitting in perfectly together.

New effects in the Lightsaber department will help make it all seem more believable, and not as it is now - ie the older movies look like they took place years BEFORE the prequels!

The added in scenes in RoTJ such as the victory celebrations really helped this. We need more!

LukeSkywalker · 04-06-2005 07:21PM

i aint crap in episode 4 lol

aidan_walsh · 04-06-2005 07:22PM

Clean up the lightsaber effects, fine. But I don't want to see some crappy CG Alec Guinness flying around the screen, which is what was suggested. That was one of the worst effects on Episode III when they tried it with Christopher Lee.

Besides, the point of the battle was to provide a diversion so that Vafer wouldn't notice the other escaping. Obi Wan knew he wasn't going to leave the Death Star, so he only needed to do enough to give them a bit of time to get out.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 07-06-2005 12:09PM

Actually, while they're at it, they could put jarjar in episode 4... and make it all about his journey to the dark side.

monkeyfudge · 07-06-2005 12:22PM

Perhaps the reason Vader's helmet wasn't shiny in Episode 3 is because the sets didn't exist and correcting the reflections in the helmet is time consuming. C3-PO's gold plating apparently took a huge amount of work to get right because it was just reflecting the green screens, this would also be one of the main reasons why he wasn't given too many scenes.

The Bollox · 07-06-2005 12:38PM

MobileInfantry wrote:

New effects in the Lightsaber department will help make it all seem more believable, and not as it is now - ie the older movies look like they took place years BEFORE the prequels!

sorry to break it to ya Mobileinfantry, but they DID take place years before, the only way you are going to be able to make it look like they take place after episodes I - III is if you re-make the original trilogy alltogether, and that is NOT going to happen.

ok fair enough the saber battles are not as good looking as they are in the new trilogy, but they mean more than the others do (except for the Anakin - Obiwan fight)

Kingsize · 08-06-2005 09:54AM

if you listen to the directors commentary lucas actually admits that the style of fighting is "two old men fighting".
think about it its probably the first sabre duel (with anyone )the lads have had in years.
kenobi had already proved that he was quick of the mark against mos eisley scum,also remember that on the death star kenobis objective was to defend until the time was right.
vader certainly seems to be covered in red tape & battling against the imperial pen pushers in ep 4,
its 20 years after the fall of the jedi & as ep 3 proved,the empire was formed with the approval of the senate (fair enough the evil sith wre behind it but to the average wookie in the street none of this trickery & treachery was known)
After the clone wars & the purge of the jedi most of the galaxy would have capitulated without resistance.The beauraucrats we see on the death star may be high ranking but with no actual battle experience.i always thought that vader was sniggered at behind his back by these guys

if that's possible
i.e I would imagine Vader & the concept of the force is something of a joke among the movers & shakers in the empires "Middle management structure".
(Rather like Nazi war criminals on the run who are tolerated by but not particularly endeared to the modern day Neo-nazis or maybe like a hippie working in an office job!!

)

In episodes 5 (& 6 ) the rebellion is on a high having destroyed the death star & vader seems to have been promoted ,its as if the emperor has "let him loose" to destroy the rebels by any means nescessary & of course to find luke skywalker

Horatio · 09-06-2005 11:14PM

There is never an actual point in ep 4,or 5 which suggests how Vader knew
Luke was his son and if he knew all along why did'nt he snatch him years ago ?

Maybe that was why he was such a bad ass in Empire, he was eager to find Luke

Pigman II · 10-06-2005 09:15AM

Horatio wrote:

There is never an actual point in ep 4,or 5 which suggests how Vader knew
Luke was his son and if he knew all along why did'nt he snatch him years ago ?

IIRC, the holograpic bit of the Emperor in ESB has been redone (for the DVD release) to cover this.

Horatio · 10-06-2005 02:48PM

Well that explains that, nicely done George, I had'nt realised they had changed that
part

TerrorFirmer · 11-06-2005 06:30PM

sorry to break it to ya Mobileinfantry, but they DID take place years before, the only way you are going to be able to make it look like they take place after episodes I - III is if you re-make the original trilogy alltogether, and that is NOT going to happen.

Eh...what? I mean order of the movies, not the times in which they were made :rolleyes:

No, the originally trilogy does not have to remade - but they could add in more effect shots, whilst keeping the original acting scenes intact. The dated effects for me create a strong barrier from being able to watch the movies in order and feel like they are taking place after eps 1-III

Still fantastic movies of course, and I like them much more then the new ones - but they don't fit together in believable visual order at all really (although they did a great job of making vader looking real tacky in EpIII)

Horatio · 12-06-2005 10:51PM

Yeeeeeeeesssss.................. but we all know the new episodes ( while sometimes glamarous ) are all show. nothing comes close to the original and it is something that is lacking from the prequels, we are being blasted with CGI effects and told this
is Star Wars, before CGI we had to accept the story and use our immagination to fill in the blanks, now computers do that for us and we don't even have to
think anymore, I think I like the originals........................

Branoic · 14-06-2005 10:31PM

I just bought the original box set and watched all three movies yesterday. I have to say, SOME of the redone scenes (namely the space battles) look good, and the victory shots at the end of Ep III.

But i like the look and charm of the older movies over the flashly new effects with no substance to them. I like the jittery way the AT-ATs move, and I even like the "crap" first light saber duel. Its not grand, its not flashy, its slow and calculating. I like to think of it as two great unrivalled masters, testing the other, knowing that the first one to make a mistake dies.

At the moment I'm undecided as to whether or not I like Hayden Christenson being stuck in beside Yoda and Obi Wan as the ghost of Darth Vader. I think that it ties the 3 older films in nicely with the new ones, but another part of me just grates at all this kind of manipulation of the original films.

aidan_walsh · 14-06-2005 10:33PM

Branoic wrote:

another part of me just grates at all this kind of manipulation of the original films.

Just wait until you hear about the 3D versions he has planned for the next few years then... Hoo-boy...

Stabshauptmann · 15-06-2005 11:51PM

Do you know what the best duel for me was?
Including everything?

Darth Maul V Darth Vader.

Im not trolling, it was in one of the comics and it was ****ing fantastic. You dont need CGI or shoalin stunt men you need to expand your mind and examine past what your senses show you. Use some god damn imagination.

While we're at it, LOTR sucked donkey dick on screen but the books were more addictive than coke!

People need to use their imaginations a little more, trust me when I say your mind knows what it wants to see better than some faceless shmuk in CA, and it has more powerfull tools to project it. Just give it a little practice.

Darth Vader is crap in ep4

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