Darth Vader is crap in ep4

dearg_doom

... in comparison to the rest of the films he's in:)


I just rented the trilogy to rewatch them for the first time in about 5years after seeing ep3, and watching A New Hope I couldn't believe how **** he was!

Firstly his helmet isn't shiny, it's almost matte black!

His voice isn't as cool,

And worst of all, he isn't the top guy, he is ranked below Tarkin, who berates him like an inferior rank!!

When it was over I was thinking WTF??? was SW ****e all along? ep5 was my (obvious:)) favourite and I was getting skeptical as to whether it'd be any good.

Then I put it on, and after the monster bit, the music starts, we see Vader on his new HUUUGE ship, and his helmet is shinier than a ****ing mirror.

He's ace in ep5, the ultimate bad guy, killing without remorse, cool voice, choosing his words a lot more carefully and best of all he is the head honcho.



Just wondered if any of ye thought Vader was a bit crap in ep4?

TerrorFirmer

Not really.....

Tbh that opening scene was the best introduction to a movie cast "bad guy" that I've ever seen.

The only thing I found pathetic was the lightsaber duel, choregraphed oh so poorly.

His voice is a little different though.

Anyway,

And worst of all, he isn't the top guy, he is ranked below Tarkin, who berates him like an inferior rank!!

This puzzled and still does puzzle me. Especially after seeing EpIII.
- I dont think Vader/Anakin would have let himself be relegated to second place, especially not below a human with no grasp of the force whatsoever

Oh well.

I still think its a great movie, Vader included.

MobileInfantry wrote:

Not really.....


This puzzled and still does puzzle me. Especially after seeing EpIII.
- I dont think Vader/Anakin would have let himself be relegated to second place, especially not below a human with no grasp of the force whatsoever

Hm, yeah that's strange. But maybe he just held Tarkin in high regard as a strategist and so allowed him to make some decisions for him.

Pigman II

It's never really stated that Tarkin is Vaders c/o (Leia makes a jibe about it is all). I get the impression they were both colleagues on the same level more or less.

You don't really see Tarkin barking orders at Vader and any action Vader takes during the film seems to be off his own bat. For example when Vader decides to go after Kenobi he tells Tarkin what he's gonna do, but he doesn't exactly wait around looking for permission and when he decides to get involved in the battle of Yavin it wasn't on the back of a Tarkin order. If anything Tarkin was indifferent to the whole situation.

So if anything the Emperor is the only character we see Vader act subserviently to on-screen.

TerrorFirmer

Pigman II wrote:

It's never really stated that Tarkin is Vaders c/o (Leia makes a jibe about it is all). I get the impression they were both colleagues on the same level more or less.

You don't really see Tarkin barking orders at Vader and any action Vader takes during the film seems to be off his own bat. For example when Vader decides to go after Kenobi he tells Tarkin what he's gonna do, but he doesn't exactly wait around looking for permission and when he decides to get involved in the battle of Yavin it wasn't on the back of a Tarkin order. If anything Tarkin was indifferent to the whole situation.

So if anything the Emperor is the only character we see Vader act subserviently to on-screen.

Theres a scene where Vader is choking another officer, and Tarkin says "Vader! Thats enough!"

Vader obeys him and releases him.

Sounds like a superior officer to me.

iguana

dearg_doom wrote:

Firstly his helmet isn't shiny, it's almost matte black!

Well obviously THAT makes all the difference!

OY

Forgive my ignorance but who is Tarkin and are you talking about a scene in EP3 where he is placed above vadar? If so what scene?

Zombienosh

OY wrote:

Forgive my ignorance but who is Tarkin and are you talking about a scene in EP3 where he is placed above vadar? If so what scene?

The scene where, a soldier at the table makes a joke about the force, and Vader starts choking him using it.

Pigman II

MobileInfantry wrote:

Theres a scene where Vader is choking another officer, and Tarkin says "Vader! Thats enough!"

Vader obeys him and releases him.

Sounds like a superior officer to me.

If you were beating down on someone on the street and your friend beside you said 'MobileInfantry, that's enough!' you wouldn't think to yourself 'hey, wait a minut that guy isn't my boss, so I'll just keep doing this'. You'd probably stop what you were doing because you were getting the voice of reason from a friend/colleague.

TerrorFirmer

Pigman II wrote:

If you were beating down on someone on the street and your friend beside you said 'MobileInfantry, that's enough!' you wouldn't think to yourself 'hey, wait a minut that guy isn't my boss, so I'll just keep doing this'. You'd probably stop what you were doing because you were getting the voice of reason from a friend/colleague.

Hardly a just comparison!

Think about it. Its Star Wars. And its VADER.

Tarkin is the only person in the entire movie to check vader - ie tell him thats enough, and also he says "You better be right Vader, I'm taking an awful risk"

Everyone else is simply afraid of him.

I can't imagine that anyone of rank that was not above Vader challenging his actions.

Considering we saw he almost killed someone for suggesting the force was an ancient and stupid religion.

Originally Posted by dearg_doom
Firstly his helmet isn't shiny, it's almost matte black!

It looks like that in the very first scene on Leias ship, but after that both his mask and voice change somewhat. Helmet becomes more shiny. Voice becomes more deep and mechanical.

angelofdeath

tarkin was the commander of the death star and vader was sent by sidious to oversee construction and to keep an eye on him

Steven

So what you're saying is that his helmet becomes shiny after we see leia?
There are so many ways to be banned using that sentence

Tarkin may have been crossing the line, but Vader made up for it in true inferiority complex style by killing other people for little reason

Pigman II

tarkin was the commander of the death star and vader was sent by sidious to oversee construction and to keep an eye on him

Exactly! I probably phrased it badly when I introduced the term 'friends' but the basic point of my arguement is that Vader was not answerable to Tarkin. They had a working relationship. Tarkin was high up enough to be able to voice his opinion on Vaders actions (and perhaps even influence DV in his decsions) but he had no direct control over him.

Tarkin is the only person in the entire movie to check vader - ie tell him thats enough,

Just a suggestion by Tarkin imho. After all Vaders line 'as you wish' didn't sound much like the response one would give to a direct order from a superior.

and also he says "You better be right Vader, I'm taking an awful risk"

If anything that suggests that Vader is in command. After all DV's now getting Tarkin to do things that are putting his own operation at risk and making him act against his better judgement.

//

Whatever the relationship is tho, my own opinion is arrived on by the evidence that at no point in this entire movie does:
1) Vader address Tarkin as a superior. Plenty of other people call Tarkin 'sir' throughout.
2) Tarkin address Vader as a subordinate
3) Tarkin give Vader a direct order.

That's how I've arrived at my conclusion and that's what I'm sticking to

dearg_doom

iguana wrote:

Well obviously THAT makes all the difference!

I thought it was a bit dissappointing!

If you watch ep4+5 one after the other there's a striking difference between Vader's helmet(:)), voice, choice of words(most importantly for me), and actions.

He stops choking your man when Tarkin tells him, but in ep5 it's like he gets Tesco ClubCard points for every officer he drops:) he truly is bad-ass!

DonkeyStyle \o/

I watched EP4 there yesterday... wow, that lightsaber duel was so shíte compared to what we've seen in the first three.
No somersaults or spinny-overhead moves at all.
George Lucas needs to get off his ass and digitally re-re-master some proper fight sequences in there.

Steven wrote:

So what you're saying is that his helmet becomes shiny after we see leia?

LMAO nice one

aidan_walsh

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

I watched EP4 there yesterday... wow, that lightsaber duel was so shíte compared to what we've seen in the first three.
No somersaults or spinny-overhead moves at all.
George Lucas needs to get off his ass and digitally re-re-master some proper fight sequences in there.

No. No he really, really doesn't.

TerrorFirmer

aidan_walsh wrote:

No. No he really, really doesn't.

Yeah, he does!

The old effects mean that its hard to watch all 6 movies in order and find them fitting in perfectly together.

New effects in the Lightsaber department will help make it all seem more believable, and not as it is now - ie the older movies look like they took place years BEFORE the prequels!

The added in scenes in RoTJ such as the victory celebrations really helped this. We need more!

LukeSkywalker

i aint crap in episode 4 lol

aidan_walsh

Clean up the lightsaber effects, fine. But I don't want to see some crappy CG Alec Guinness flying around the screen, which is what was suggested. That was one of the worst effects on Episode III when they tried it with Christopher Lee.

Besides, the point of the battle was to provide a diversion so that Vafer wouldn't notice the other escaping. Obi Wan knew he wasn't going to leave the Death Star, so he only needed to do enough to give them a bit of time to get out.

DonkeyStyle \o/

Actually, while they're at it, they could put jarjar in episode 4... and make it all about his journey to the dark side.

monkeyfudge

Perhaps the reason Vader's helmet wasn't shiny in Episode 3 is because the sets didn't exist and correcting the reflections in the helmet is time consuming. C3-PO's gold plating apparently took a huge amount of work to get right because it was just reflecting the green screens, this would also be one of the main reasons why he wasn't given too many scenes.

The Bollox

MobileInfantry wrote:

New effects in the Lightsaber department will help make it all seem more believable, and not as it is now - ie the older movies look like they took place years BEFORE the prequels!

sorry to break it to ya Mobileinfantry, but they DID take place years before, the only way you are going to be able to make it look like they take place after episodes I - III is if you re-make the original trilogy alltogether, and that is NOT going to happen.

ok fair enough the saber battles are not as good looking as they are in the new trilogy, but they mean more than the others do (except for the Anakin - Obiwan fight)

Kingsize

if you listen to the directors commentary lucas actually admits that the style of fighting is "two old men fighting".
think about it its probably the first sabre duel (with anyone )the lads have had in years.
kenobi had already proved that he was quick of the mark against mos eisley scum,also remember that on the death star kenobis objective was to defend until the time was right.
vader certainly seems to be covered in red tape & battling against the imperial pen pushers in ep 4,
its 20 years after the fall of the jedi & as ep 3 proved,the empire was formed with the approval of the senate (fair enough the evil sith wre behind it but to the average wookie in the street none of this trickery & treachery was known)
After the clone wars & the purge of the jedi most of the galaxy would have capitulated without resistance.The beauraucrats we see on the death star may be high ranking but with no actual battle experience.i always thought that vader was sniggered at behind his back by these guys if that's possible
i.e I would imagine Vader & the concept of the force is something of a joke among the movers & shakers in the empires "Middle management structure".
(Rather like Nazi war criminals on the run who are tolerated by but not particularly endeared to the modern day Neo-nazis or maybe like a hippie working in an office job!! )

In episodes 5 (& 6 ) the rebellion is on a high having destroyed the death star & vader seems to have been promoted ,its as if the emperor has "let him loose" to destroy the rebels by any means nescessary & of course to find luke skywalker

Horatio

There is never an actual point in ep 4,or 5 which suggests how Vader knew
Luke was his son and if he knew all along why did'nt he snatch him years ago ?

Maybe that was why he was such a bad ass in Empire, he was eager to find Luke

Pigman II

Horatio wrote:

There is never an actual point in ep 4,or 5 which suggests how Vader knew
Luke was his son and if he knew all along why did'nt he snatch him years ago ?

IIRC, the holograpic bit of the Emperor in ESB has been redone (for the DVD release) to cover this.

Horatio

Well that explains that, nicely done George, I had'nt realised they had changed that
part

TerrorFirmer

sorry to break it to ya Mobileinfantry, but they DID take place years before, the only way you are going to be able to make it look like they take place after episodes I - III is if you re-make the original trilogy alltogether, and that is NOT going to happen.

Eh...what? I mean order of the movies, not the times in which they were made :rolleyes:

No, the originally trilogy does not have to remade - but they could add in more effect shots, whilst keeping the original acting scenes intact. The dated effects for me create a strong barrier from being able to watch the movies in order and feel like they are taking place after eps 1-III

Still fantastic movies of course, and I like them much more then the new ones - but they don't fit together in believable visual order at all really (although they did a great job of making vader looking real tacky in EpIII)

Horatio

Yeeeeeeeesssss.................. but we all know the new episodes ( while sometimes glamarous ) are all show. nothing comes close to the original and it is something that is lacking from the prequels, we are being blasted with CGI effects and told this
is Star Wars, before CGI we had to accept the story and use our immagination to fill in the blanks, now computers do that for us and we don't even have to
think anymore, I think I like the originals........................

Branoic

I just bought the original box set and watched all three movies yesterday. I have to say, SOME of the redone scenes (namely the space battles) look good, and the victory shots at the end of Ep III.

But i like the look and charm of the older movies over the flashly new effects with no substance to them. I like the jittery way the AT-ATs move, and I even like the "crap" first light saber duel. Its not grand, its not flashy, its slow and calculating. I like to think of it as two great unrivalled masters, testing the other, knowing that the first one to make a mistake dies.

At the moment I'm undecided as to whether or not I like Hayden Christenson being stuck in beside Yoda and Obi Wan as the ghost of Darth Vader. I think that it ties the 3 older films in nicely with the new ones, but another part of me just grates at all this kind of manipulation of the original films.

aidan_walsh

Branoic wrote:

another part of me just grates at all this kind of manipulation of the original films.

Just wait until you hear about the 3D versions he has planned for the next few years then... Hoo-boy...

Stabshauptmann

Do you know what the best duel for me was?
Including everything?

Darth Maul V Darth Vader.

Im not trolling, it was in one of the comics and it was ****ing fantastic. You dont need CGI or shoalin stunt men you need to expand your mind and examine past what your senses show you. Use some god damn imagination.

While we're at it, LOTR sucked donkey dick on screen but the books were more addictive than coke!

People need to use their imaginations a little more, trust me when I say your mind knows what it wants to see better than some faceless shmuk in CA, and it has more powerfull tools to project it. Just give it a little practice.

dearg_doom

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

People need to use their imaginations a little more, trust me when I say your mind knows what it wants to see better than some faceless shmuk in CA, and it has more powerfull tools to project it. Just give it a little practice.

Oooooh surely them's fighting words in the FILM forum!

Stabshauptmann

dearg_doom wrote:

Oooooh surely them's fighting words in the FILM forum!

This isnt the film forum. Art>Sci Fi / Fantasy>Star Wars

Stabshauptmann

And what do you mean compared to the rest of the films hes in? The only time we see Vader fight is in ep 4-6.

weemcd

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

And what do you mean compared to the rest of the films hes in? The only time we see Vader fight is in ep 4-6.

the emperor gives him the litle of Vader in episode 3, i presume his first fight as vader is between him and ob-wan

Stabshauptmann

you can be as anally retentive as you like but you know what was meant

Draupnir

anally retentive?

your the one spouting on about Darth Maul v Darth Vader. Stuff that happens in comics and books doesnt belong in a discussion relating to the movies, as the movies are the whole story, as opposed to comics which are there to drain money from people.

Darth Maul died when Anakin was a kid as far as the official timeline and the movies go, so that will do for me.

Stabshauptmann

This is the Star Wars board. As Ive pointed out it is not the Films board or any subsection of it.

The OP said Vader is crap in Ep 4-6 Vs Ep 1-3.

I disagree for 2 reasons.
1) Vader has the limitation of the suit.
2) Flashing lights and gymnastics arent the deciding factor in how good a swordsman vader is.

If you limit your sources you'll limit your knowledge. But pray, do tell me how an example of a good fight sceen not in a movie has anything to do with the timeline.
So what if you dont accept Maul ever fought Vader, what has that to do with the point that the fight scene was more exciting and gripping than, say, Dooku Vs Yoda.

Draupnir

For the simple reason, that Darth Maul and Darth Vader, never really fought. All that comic/book stuff is money making gone crazy.

Darth Maul died on Naboo when Anakin Skywalker was a child. How did Darth Maul then fight Darth Vader, who didnt exist until about 15 years later?

Star Wars, the actual proper story, in my opinion anyway, is built up over 6 movies.

Stabshauptmann

But what has that to do with my point??!!

My point is the way the fight was portrayed, not what effect the fight had in the star wars universe. I dont care if its not cannon because thats irrelevent.

This thread is about fight scenes and wheather the ones in Ep4-6 are gripping enough.
If I had made references to Kill Bill or crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon would you also complain that they're not SW cannon?

Goodshape

Redeye - where did you get this comic? Is it online somewhere?

Draupnir

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

If I had made references to Kill Bill or crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon would you also complain that they're not SW cannon?

They would be just as irrelevant as your comic yes. I have a Darth Vader figure and a Darth Maul figure, Ill play with them when I go home and put together quite a fight scene. Would that then be eligible for consideration as the greatest fight scene in your opinion.

Anyway, its a comic, so there is no real fight scene apart from your imagination, which means its different in everyones head.

lorindol

i tottally agree wit u i hadn't watched ep4,5,or 6 in years and d weekend after i saw ep3 i watched dem and to say i was totally disappointed , the light saber fites in ep4 were pathetic :mad: but they got better as d eps progressed. i was comparing d new ones wit d old eps and i totally prefer d new eps, the fites r way better. but dat was all dey had back den tou have to think bout dat. imagine people could be dissin lotr in 20 years time sayin it's unrealistic!!!(which is impossible cos lotr is d g8st film to date-excludin star wars ep3 of course!!!!) :cool: