marilyn manson.... is it acceptable?

Talliesin · 03-06-2005 12:56PM

Ania wrote:

However, these two boys took Marilyn Manson as an idol.
And idols, i.e. popular people should be positive idols, not nazi admirers.
Labil people are influenced very easily.

So, his telling people to think for themselves (I'm assuming you have listened to his lyrics) lead them to shoot up a school full of kids. There's some might weird implications in that.

Ania · 03-06-2005 01:00PM

Talliesin wrote:

So, his telling people to think for themselves (I'm assuming you have listened to his lyrics) lead them to shoot up a school full of kids. There's some might weird implications in that.

His lyrics are filled with hatred.
And, as I said, labil and weak people get easily influenced by this sort of things.

egan007 · 03-06-2005 01:03PM

Ania wrote:

His lyrics are filled with hatred.
And, as I said, labil and weak people get easily influenced by this sort of things.

Have you considered the fact that they may be poor depressed abused mentially ill might have somehting to do with it - Oh no of course it's MM he looks evil

Lynibeth · 03-06-2005 01:04PM

I'm 100% atheist but also a fan of manson and other metal music. I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong because nothing is right nor wrong but thinking makes it so. I believe everybody has the right to express their opinions and is that a sin? there's nothing wrong with manson's music.

Tobias Greeshman · 03-06-2005 03:26PM

Ania wrote:

His lyrics are filled with hatred

Well it is heavy metal, your not exactly gonna get a love song here, also not all his songs are full of hatred! Look at his last album very little angry lyrics there! In essense would you like comparing Eminem's Kim to any of Mansons songs and im sure that you'll be hard pressed to find some of Mansons stuff worse.

The man is controversial and trying to provoke change, by making people stop and think about themselves and their beliefs, just because everyone you know has a certain belief, thats not to say that you should have this belief too, unless of course you unexplicably have the same belief aswell! What is so wrong with this, also a lot of what he does too is not just a anti-christianity but how the modern media is corrupt and how it brainwashes a large section of the public. He's writen a good few songs on this topic Mr. Superstar, Rock Is Dead, The Dope Show!

Ania wrote:

However, these two boys took Marilyn Manson as an idol.
And idols, i.e. popular people should be positive idols, not nazi admirers.

The man is an entertainer plain and simple, there's no unwritten rule that say he has to be optimistic and positive in how he comes across, he serves his purpose as an entertainer if he doesn't then why has he so many fans. If you want to take this sort of reasoning your gonna have to put Ozzy Osbourne in the same boat, one of his fans committed suicide in the 80's.

As for the columbine incident Manson didnt tell them to pick up a gun and kill innocent students. I think Micheal Moores Bowling For Columbine summed up my thoughts on the entire incident, the people at fault were not manson, they were: media, parents, society and gun laws!

Excelsior · 03-06-2005 03:51PM

Lynibeth wrote:

I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong because nothing is right nor wrong but thinking makes it so.

If JustHalf ever meets you in real life he will have to punch you square on in the face now to see if you actually believe what you have just claimed.

Your opinion intruiges me. I wonder what a victim of the Darfur genocide would say to your idea that evil isn't real.

Lynibeth wrote:

I believe everybody has the right to express their opinions and is that a sin? there's nothing wrong with manson's music.

There is nothing sinful in simply expressing your opinion. Certainly the way you express your opinion can be hurtful.

Silas wrote:

I think Micheal Moores Bowling For Columbine summed up my thoughts on the entire incident, the people at fault were not manson, they were: media, parents, society and gun laws!

I know this is radical, but I always suspected that the Columbine murderers were responsible for the Columbine murders.

Tobias Greeshman · 03-06-2005 03:55PM

Excelsior wrote:

I know this is radical, but I always suspected that the Columbine murderers were responsible for the Columbine murders.

I meant in what drove the murderers to do what they did! God loves a smartass!

Lynibeth · 04-06-2005 09:20PM

Excelsior wrote:

If JustHalf ever meets you in real life he will have to punch you square on in the face now to see if you actually believe what you have just claimed.

Actually you're right. I THINK that punching somebody is wrong so I wouldn't appreciate it but for someone who's punching me who thinks its right won't care! I don't need to prove my beliefs to you after all, if you're christian, you certainly can't prove them to me. I thought your religion was about respecting others. Why can't you repect manson's choice? He's not harming anybody. He'll only harm you if you let him. If you don't want to let him.. Then turn his music off. I don't sit in church thinking how evil religion is, I'd leave! You've got to stop the stereotyping and hating and get on with your lives because I don't think manson's losing any sleep over what you think

smidgy · 05-06-2005 01:27PM

Now we are taking about 'proving beliefs' -would you believe it!

I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong because nothing is right nor wrong but
thinking makes it so.

Coming from a right wing perspective that is one of the most naive statements I have ever read - but just thinking about it i realise that it is one of the biggest confusions that exists in modern society. Does evil exist? If you accept that it does then it opens up a whole big can of worms. Is killing the only evil or are thoughts and words good and evil too - where do you draw the limits of evil?

Marlin manson is primarily a commercial product that finds a large market in the population that believe that evil doesnt exist or simply just don’t care if it does. If there is no black and white, only shades of grey then you probably wont ever take a stand against anything - how comfortable! People think themselves so clever these days that they dont have to recognise good and evil because they are kinda above all that nonsense and everything is just somewhere in the middle. Marlin manson is a musician - Ill give him that, but how do we classify his message and his words. He has an influence on hundreds of thousands of young listeners who are seeking out their paths in life. He is not a force for good and he’s not a killer either so lets just pop him in that large middle ground where people seem to classify everything these days. Is everybody comfortable in their seats?

Lynibeth · 05-06-2005 01:38PM

Your beliefs are just ridiculous and your justifications, just as bad. Evil does not exist! Neither do good deeds. Marilyn manson is commercial I'll agree but so is this so called God in which you all believe. Think about how ridiculous that is! You don't need to believe in evil to live a full life. I think that those who don't care whether evil exists are right! Because they don't class it as evil. You're wrong. You can go ahead and continue to live your life in shame believing everything is a sin but it's not going to do you any good!

robindch · 05-06-2005 04:05PM

> Coming from a right wing perspective [...]
> If there is no black and white, only shades of grey then
> you probably wont ever take a stand against anything [...]
> that large middle ground where people seem to classify
> everything these days

hmm... the strange "right-wing" notion that the only worthy and honest people are the ones who "take stands against" things, and that there's something derelict about those thoughtful people who've matured to the point that they see the world in many colors, and not just the wide-eyed black and white which we all learn as children.

As for comfort? Well, what's easier: to approach an issue headlong, to declare it colorless and in want of a good standing against, or to sit and think for a while, seeing it from other points of view?

Some people sits and thinks, others just sits*

- robin.

(*) with apologies to Satchel Paige.

r@t · 05-06-2005 09:35PM

Ania wrote:

I don't think that his anti- religion (not only christianity) view is the problem with Marilyn Manson.
The problem is his (partly hidden) admiration for the Nazis.
Everybody knows what happened at Columbine high school...

ok the fact is marilyn manson does not admire nazis. where you pull that from??...... just becauce he refferences the swastika. hitler or the nazis werent the only ppl to use the swastika (it was originally a hindu symbol). maybe youve seen him wearing a nazi ss officer? so is prince harry a nazi or supporter? is robert carlye a nazi or supporter? (he played hitler in a film about his life) ,see the connection?. you might find it interesting to know that manson has worked very closely in recent years with the artist goddfried helnwein (austrian)- an artist commited to outlining the atrosities of the nazi regeime. now if mason was a nazi admirer i dont think they would be able to work together on this subject. when manson references the swastica (just as helnwein does) it is pointing at the abuse of power inherient in predjuice controling governing systems (by the way manson is also a painter/artist). when you reference something it dosent, in fact, always mean you support it, you are taking things to literaly. i mean if anyone these days trys to express themselves artisticly ppl automatically jump to conclusions. take for example marcus harveys portrait of myra hindley (chid killer) featured in the sensations exhibition in london 1997- ppl instantly jumped to the conclusion that he supported her behaviour. and tried to destroy the painting, without stoping to think about what it meant or why he used the image of her ofr bothering to go out and educate themselves about art and symbols and how they work. just as you have about manson. please find another excuse for the colmbine murders- you dont hear me screaming wako. think about it.

at this point b4 anyone tries to say i dont know what im saying, id like to point out that i am an artist myself, that i have researched this subject extensively , i wrote my thesis on it. so please no more posts saying nazi this and nazi that.

smidgy · 06-06-2005 03:29PM

Your beliefs are just ridiculous.
You're wrong.

The arrogance of these statements are just something else. So I guess thats case closed - on the strength of that argument the misteries of the universe have been solved! Come on man - open your eyes and have respect for what others see from their eyes. I used to look out through eyes like yours and think as you do. There is more to music that the sound it makes, it is influencial - for example look at the way the younger followers of MM dress - they dress in the same manner as he does - so it is influencial. It is the limits of this influence that we are discussing and whether this influence is for better or for worse. Is beating a preson right or wrong? Do you see it just as an act that just is. Do you not acknowledge the definitions of the words good and evil?

You can go ahead and continue to live your life in shame believing everything is a sin but it's not going to do you any good!

What are you talking about? Listening to Marlin manson is not a sin, I never said it was and its fine if you are listening to it simply as music. But if it starts messing with a 13 year olds thought processes then there is something wrong with it.

You don't need to believe in evil to live a full life.

What are you talking about ??? (That seems to be comming from you - not me)

As for comfort? Well, what's easier: to approach an issue headlong, to declare it colorless and in want of a good standing against, or to sit and think for a while, seeing it from other points of view?

Are you honestly saying its easier not to take a stand than to take a stand?

Lynibeth · 10-06-2005 03:27PM

"open your eyes and have respect for what others see from their eyes"

Oh my.. You're saying that to me smidgy?? .. .Hmmm..

Yes the case is closed. Everything in life is bound to mess with people's thought processes anyway. For example, Religion.

That's all I'm saying!

Excelsior · 11-06-2005 10:57AM

Lynibeth wrote:

I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong

Lynibeth wrote:

You're wrong.

I'm not trying to convince you of the truth of Christianity or the validity behind the belief that God became man in the form of a Jewish carpenter from Palestine called Jesus of Nazareth. I haven't even once argued for that on this thread.

Neither have I argued against Manson. I think his music is boring and bland but then again, Ben Folds and Radiohead are my favourite musicians so Manson probably was never going to get near my radar. I have in fact argued that people who attribute blame for Columbine style massacres to Manson should maybe get their ethics in a line and hold the primary agents responsible- the murderers themselves. If I was to sum up my attitude to Manson, this article from theonion.com would do it.

What I am trying to do is show you that your argument is completely incoherent. If there is no such thing as right and wrong then I am under no obligation to hold your opinions as right, regardless of how well they are argued. Following your viewpoint to their logical end, Just Half will administer the beating and I will ignore it completely, for that is the path you have laid out for us.

Davei141 · 11-06-2005 05:38PM

Haha you think that article was real?

Playboy · 11-06-2005 06:07PM

Whats right or wrong always has been and always will be a matter of perspective

Excelsior · 11-06-2005 06:25PM

The article is certainly "real" in that it exists. However, something sourced from theonion.com is not "real" in the sense of broadsheet journalism. So I guess it depends on what you mean by "real". Maybe the relativists here can help us out?

Playboy, is that true or is it just your perspective?

Playboy · 12-06-2005 06:44PM

Excelsior wrote:

Playboy, is that true or is it just your perspective?

Its just my perspective .. I cant be a hypocrite now can I

marilyn · 22-08-2007 01:03PM

r@t wrote:

just wondered what the christian stance is on listening to music by the supposed "satanic"artist marilyn manson.

is it a sin? and if so why.[/

i love marilyn manson and i am cathlic i think that everything manson does is for show i think it a act it to shock people to get atention. he want to act crazy on stage i say let him but of stage he is a nice guy. so some people think he is bad im not one of them. and also it is probly not a bad sin because god knows its an act.

Run_to_da_hills · 22-08-2007 06:50PM

marilyn wrote:

r@t wrote:

just wondered what the christian stance is on listening to music by the supposed "satanic"artist marilyn manson.

is it a sin? and if so why.[/

i love marilyn manson and i am cathlic i think that everything manson does is for show i think it a act it to shock people to get atention. he want to act crazy on stage i say let him but of stage he is a nice guy. so some people think he is bad im not one of them. and also it is probly not a bad sin because god knows its an act.

Marilyn Manson is NOT just a man without Jesus Christ, he is also a man who has deliberately rejected Christ and boasts about it. Many of his lyrics mock the Word of God and Jesus Christ. For one to be a Christian and to follow this guy is a contradiction. I have witnessed this guy live in Concert several years ago before I became Christian. Perhaps one of his well known quotes from Spin in August 1996, "Hopefully, I'll be remembered as the person who brought an end to Christianity." As a DJ myself I prefere to leave this guy out!

Smellyirishman · 22-08-2007 07:15PM

I would find it hard to be a catholic and enjoy what Manson is saying, considering some of it has to do with the church/Gods. I can understand you enjoying the music, but the lyrics and meaning are quite obviously opposed to things such as religion.

So if you agree with what he is saying, then it's blasphemy and all that good stuff, straight to hell with you. If you listen purely for the melodic joy, then I don't see a problem.

Run_to_da_hills · 25-08-2007 10:13PM

One thing "positive" I can say for Marilyn Manson is that he holds up a "red flag" on his attitude towards perverting the Gospel so Christians have absolutely no excuse to have him. There are many other pop and rock artists out there that would be more subtle in their anti Christian approach that would creep into the charts more discreetly, these are more damaging.

UU · 28-08-2007 01:00PM

Grrrrr... some people are so ridiculous and conservative!!!

You know what? I think it's so wrong the way many people (notably in America's Bible Belt) attack Marilyn Manson and accuse him of being a devil worshiper when in fact he isn't and his music isn't even satanic.

You know the worse thing was in 1999 at the Columbine massacre when two crazed teenage boys came in a gunned down fellow students and teachers in their secondary school. Who was blamed responsible for this? Only Marilyn Manson! Only because the boys listened to his music and it somehow caused them to embark on a killing spree. Why not blame the NRA or the President? They're the ones promoting the use of guns and glamorising them. When interviewed by Michel Moore in his documentary film "Bowling for Columbine", Manson said these few things:

Manson: I definitely can see why they would pick me, because I think it's easy to throw my face on a TV, because I'm, in the end, sort of a poster boy for fear. Because I represent what everyone's afraid of, because I do and say what I want.

Manson: The two by-products of that whole tragedy were, violence in entertainment and gun control. And how perfect that that was the two things that we were gonna talk about with the upcoming election. And also, then we forgot about Monica Lewinsky and we forgot about... The president was shooting bombs overseas, yet I'm a bad guy because I sing some rock 'n' roll songs. And who's a bigger influence, the president or Marilyn Manson? I'd like to think me, but I'm gonna go with the president.

Moore: Do you know the day that Columbine happened, the United States dropped more bombs on Kosovo than any other time during that war?

Manson:I do know that and I think that's really ironic, that nobody said, "Well, maybe the president had an influence on this violent behaviour. Because that's not the way the media wants to take it and spin it and turn it into fear. 'Cause then you're watching television, you're watching the news; you're being pumped full of fear. And there's floods, there's AIDS, there's murder. You cut to commercial, buy the Acura, buy the Colgate. If you have bad breath, they're not gonna talk to you. If you got pimples, the girl's not gonna fück you. It's a campaign of fear and consumption. And that's what I think that's it's all based on, is the whole idea that: keep everyone afraid, and they'll consume. And that's really as simple - as it can be boiled down to.

Moore: If you were to talk directly to the kids at Columbine and the people in that community, what would you say to them, if they here right now?

Manson: I wouldn't say a single word to them. I would listen to what they have to say. And that's what no one did.

nyarlothothep · 28-08-2007 01:28PM

Do the crusades make god evil?

Rabidlamb · 06-09-2007 02:20PM

Manson is very media savy & knows how amp things up for his own free publicity. The bible bashers in the US go up in arms & it's page 5 news everywhere. Then some dimwit from "Mothers United Against Fun" speak out & the whole thing is like an episode of Father Ted.

I'd like to see a poll of how many people have heard of him vs how many people could name one of his songs. The man is a walking publicity machine.

Acid_Violet · 07-09-2007 02:53PM

His music is pretty dire tbh, and in fairness he's not so much Satanic as anti-religion. I find it hilarious that religious and family groups pin-point Manson as the central point in the music industry that's evil/satanic when they have absolutely no idea about the GENUINELY evil/devil-worshipping bands out these.

marilyn manson.... is it acceptable?

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