marilyn manson.... is it acceptable?

r@t

just wondered what the christian stance is on listening to music by the supposed "satanic"artist marilyn manson.

is it a sin? and if so why.

neuro-praxis

What a Christian listens to or doesn't listen to is a matter of personal taste and opinion. Who exactly would be deeming listening to any kind of music a sin?

Sin is much less about what you do and much more about the state of your heart.

There aren't hard and fast rules here. The whole point of Christianity is that God recognised that people were unable to live by the law and so sent Jesus to redeem them. By Jesus dying, all men were released from sin and by proxy, from the law (legalism).

r@t, maybe you should finish up your points on one thread before starting a new one.

r@t

i say this be cause ive heard that it is satanic - yet i don't know why preople say this. but doesn't the state of your heart depend on what you do?

Talliesin

neuro-praxis wrote:

The whole point of Christianity is that God recognised that people were unable to live by the law and so sent Jesus to redeem them. By Jesus dying, all men were released from sin and by proxy, from the law (legalism).

That's an interesting way of putting the difference between the Christian and Jewish relationship between the people and the Divine, but I've never heard it expressed as "the whole point" before. Indeed coming from a Catholic background I was taught that it was more a matter of Jesus bringing things to a sort of inevitable next step (given the claim that he was the Messiah), but then Catholicisim is more legalistic than some other denominations.
Is that a common view in your denomination? (In which case, what denomination is that?) or your own take?

Frank Drebin

From what I've heard: it's not the music itself but the effect it has on the listener. ie: Causes the listener to have violent or suicidal tendancies, causes them to swear or curse etc.

I say it wrong!

r@t

thanks i didn't know that frank
how does it make people have suicdial tendancies or make them become violent- is it the words or the melody or something?

so should we stear clear of all music with swear words in it?

neuro-praxis

Talliesin wrote:

That's an interesting way of putting the difference between the Christian and Jewish relationship between the people and the Divine, but I've never heard it expressed as "the whole point" before. Indeed coming from a Catholic background I was taught that it was more a matter of Jesus bringing things to a sort of inevitable next step (given the claim that he was the Messiah), but then Catholicisim is more legalistic than some other denominations.
Is that a common view in your denomination? (In which case, what denomination is that?) or your own take?

I was being very loose with my language, sorry. I was talking to a r@t, though. (Just kidding, r@t. ) I think that if I was definitively required to write about the "whole point" of Christianity, then I might have been a little more rigorous.

I'm a Christian, worshipping in a Presbyterian church. I worship Presby-style because I like the set-up of accountability there. Also, it's the place I feel God may have directly or indirectly led me to, judging by the relationships and experiences that have formed there over the years.

When I said that "God recognised" I don't mean to suggest that God sort of noticed we weren't coping well with the legalism; of course it is my belief (the orthodox belief) that Jesus' incarnation and subsequent death and ressurrection was planned from the beginning (the book of John begins with - "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"). So, in one sense, it is true to say that Jesus was "the next step" but from another perspective, it is fully innaccurate, because Jesus always Was and Is; Him being Existence itself.

I'm not sure if I have answered your question Talliesin - if I haven't please let me know and I will try harder.

r@t

but back to the topic- has no one any opinions on this???

Seed

If you follow the bible, not once does it say that listening to Manson is a sin.

Did Jesus say "Listening to Marilyn Manson is a sin" No. No he did not. Anything any Pope or clergy say after this means nothing. They govern and serve the church, they are not the word of Christ.

Tobias Greeshman

Firstly Marilyn Manson is not a Satanist, he accepted the title of "Reverend" out of respect for Dr LaVey.

Ive been a fan for a long time and I can honestly say that in no way did I ever hear manson telling anyone to praise Satan or talk about it in any of his songs.

People should read his autobiography, most people I know have read it (christians included) have respected the man and his music much more.

Is it a sin to listen to his music as a christian?
Personally Im a fan of his music, so no for me its not a sin!! The man is creative, intelligent and interesting, and doing something different to anyone else. Im sure when John Milton wrote "Paradise Lost" he possibly got similar rebuke, or when PB Shelley claimed he was an aithiest. All these things happened because society (and christianity) has always being afraid of what is different, and as a result strike out at those they do not understand, or those they fear.

As a christian do what ever you feel happy with, if you think something is morally wrong then you should not do it, but also it should not mean that you should try to have it forcefully removed, because what is morally acceptable to one person is unacceptable to someone else.

JustHalf

I'd say that listening to Marilyn Manson is unacceptable because his music is crap. But that's just me being a music fascist.

r@t, you seem to be looking for some legalistic system... a set of hard and fast rules as to what is acceptable and what is not. Sorry, but no such guide exists. The Bible is, for the most part, a story. It is not an exhaustive list of what to do in every possibly circumstance. No such guide exists, and none could exist; certainly not in a tome that (in some printings) can fit in your pocket.

Besides, who gives a sh*t? I'm certain God is less concerned with what music you listen to than what is in your heart.

trust_no_one, that's an odd signature.

Tobias Greeshman

JustHalf wrote:

I'd say that listening to Marilyn Manson is unacceptable because his music is crap.

Well each unto his own I guess, though if you could use that reasoning perhaps you could get christianity to stomp out boy/girl-bands... lol

JustHalf wrote:

trust_no_one, that's an odd signature.

Its from a famous philosopher named Fredriech Nietzsche, taken from a book named the The AntiChrist.

r@t

i totaly agree with you trust no one. what is his autobiography called?

Tobias Greeshman

r@t wrote:

i totaly agree with you trust no one. what is his autobiography called?

His autobiography is called The long hard road out of hell, you agree with me, are you talking about the last post, or the more serious, first one?

crazy angel

Frank Drebin wrote:

From what I've heard: it's not the music itself but the effect it has on the listener. ie: Causes the listener to have violent or suicidal tendancies, causes them to swear or curse etc.

yea, but to be influenced by the music enough to be suicidal,
you would have to have definate psychological problems first!

r@t

trust_no_one wrote:

you agree with me, are you talking about the last post, or the more serious, first one?

your first post.

archdukefranz

What a Christian listens to or doesn't listen to is a matter of personal taste and opinion. Who exactly would be deeming listening to any kind of music a sin?

How about music that encourages people to offer themselves to Satan?
How do you think God feels about people listening to that?

Sin is much less about what you do and much more about the state of your heart.

Speech and Actions effect the state of your heart, hence moot point

There aren't hard and fast rules here. The whole point of Christianity is that God recognised that people were unable to live by the law and so sent Jesus to redeem them. By Jesus dying, all men were released from sin and by proxy, from the law (legalism).

LOL
There are almost as many rules in the new testement as there are in the old.
Jesus said I will remove nothing from the law, nor did he say ANYONE would be released from it!
The Law is there to show people what Gods will is! What a privillage it is to know Gods will, you are treating it like a curse!
The point of Christianity (following Christ) is that salvation is unatainable without the attonement provided by Christ for the going away from Gods will.

so should we stear clear of all music with swear words in it?

I wouldn't advise listening to anything that you wouldn't say yourself.

archdukefranz

"Antichrist Superstar"

you built me up with your wishing hell
I didn't have to sell you
you threw your money in the pissing well
you do just what they tell you
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
i shed the skin to feed the fake
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
whose mistake am i anyway?
Cut the head off
Grows back hard
I am the hydra
now you'll see your star
prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclipsed the sun
the angel has spread its wings
the time has come for bitter things
[chorus]

the time has come it is quite clear
our antichrist
is almost here...
it is done

Those are the lyrics to on of his songs

[ Daithí ]

JustHalf wrote:

I'd say that listening to Marilyn Manson is unacceptable because his music is crap.

Hehe.

I believe that anyone can listen to whatever they want.

Marilyn Manson isn't a Satanist, I don't think. He does it for attention. I saw a documentary on him on TMF a few months ago. I could be wrong though. ¬_¬

As for swear words in music, they're just words. No different from any other words, in my opinion.

Töpher

archdukefranz wrote:

"Antichrist Superstar"

you built me up with your wishing hell
I didn't have to sell you
you threw your money in the pissing well
you do just what they tell you
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
i shed the skin to feed the fake
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
whose mistake am i anyway?
Cut the head off
Grows back hard
I am the hydra
now you'll see your star
prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclipsed the sun
the angel has spread its wings
the time has come for bitter things
[chorus]

the time has come it is quite clear
our antichrist
is almost here...
it is done

Those are the lyrics to on of his songs

Where does that tell anyone what to do or who to worship? Yes it uses some words that people who are very into their religion seem to automatically presume are evil, namely Antichrist, followed directly by superstar. He sells records on shock value etc, look beyond the simple textual words to the meaning beyond. It's generally all metaphorial. It has an offensive to Christian track title, but does not condemn the religion or those that follow it, nor does it direct people to Statan or any other such nonsense.

Just my €0.02

Töpher

[ Daith&#237 wrote: »

Hehe.

I believe that anyone can listen to whatever they want.

Marilyn Manson isn't a Satanist, I don't think. He does it for attention. I saw a documentary on him on TMF a few months ago. I could be wrong though. ¬_¬

As for swear words in music, they're just words. No different from any other words, in my opinion.

True, he is not a Satanist in the common misconceived worshiper of Satan sense. They are known as devil worshipers. AFAIK Manson goes with the belief that man is Satan, we ourselves are evil, and the worship of yourself is deemed Satanism, yet has nothing to do with a little red man and a pointed stick. Or so he indicates in his book.

Satanism - The worship of ones self (Which would be considered a false God)
Devil Worship - Wishing for a little man with pokers etc

neuro-praxis

archdukefranz wrote:

How about music that encourages people to offer themselves to Satan?
How do you think God feels about people listening to that?

I think God has a clear head about teenagers and their need to rebel. Marilyn Manson is full of crap. I'd say God is pretty understanding. Are you telling me you only watch movies that portray sinless people?

Speech and Actions effect the state of your heart, hence moot point.

There is no logic here. Speech and actions may affect the state of your heart, but as we all know, each and every one of us is a hypocrite, and no amount of pretending to be sinless will save us. You can never swear and never watch an 18s movie and you can avoid lapdancing clubs and you can go to church every Sunday but it won't help you get to heaven.

LOL

You didn't actually laugh. What is with your arrogance? We are all on the same side here.

There are almost as many rules in the new testement as there are in the old.
Jesus said I will remove nothing from the law, nor did he say ANYONE would be released from it!
The Law is there to show people what Gods will is! What a privillage it is to know Gods will, you are treating it like a curse!
The point of Christianity (following Christ) is that salvation is unatainable without the attonement provided by Christ for the going away from Gods will.

Right. So when the curtain was torn in the temple, symbolising that Christ had ripped away the barriers between us and God, this did not represent that our sin had been covered by the Saviour? Jesus makes it clear that a high standard of behaviour is expected from Christians, but this is only in the context of grace, and an acceptance that nothing we do can make God love us more or less.

I certainly do not consider knowing God's will "a curse". However, what is a curse, is being bound by the law and not bound by a desire to know God and serve God. When we are obsessed with rules, we begin to play the make-it-up-as-you-go-along-Christian-game. The aim of the game is to be the "best Christian" and to *appear* as holy as possible, thus pushing you onto the highest moral ground you can get to. When you can pour your concentration into genuine humility and servitude, then you become freed. Because sin itself is slavery.

I wouldn't advise listening to anything that you wouldn't say yourself.

You must walk around with your eyes shut and your ears closed then!

pretty-in-pink

I don't like that whol metal style syuff, and from my experience the fans of it are total jerks. I don't think listening to its a sin, you can't blame music for making someone do something or think somthing. Not really.....maybe it has an affect after a certain length of time. Like brain-washing.

Anyway, if you are a decent, good person, then your music choice shouldn't matter. Its your actions and the way you feel about thm that can be a sin.

As for those who are very sinful....sure we can pray for them to find the light...

smidgy

I dont think listening to that type of music is a sin - actually I dont think that statement even makes sense. But this type of music is influencial on younger people and does not direct them towards God in any manner. Remember that Satan is very subtle and his influence is everywhere and what gives him more power is that people do not acknowledge that his influence is everywhere - in subtle sugestions in the media , in music, in literature etc. Anything that leads people from God could be interpreted as being anti-god.
If someone wants to listen to this type of music for its content and message and not simply for its tunes/melodies(for want of a better word) he is already wandering in the wrong direction. This music will consolidate that persons misguidance.
Remember it is the choices we make from the influences we absorb that determines the road we take.

tinkerbell

I think that people who blame Marilyn Manson for certain things are just looking for someone to pin the blame on. That's the extent of it.

He is not responsible for kids going off doing violent things or whatever. If a kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and then decides to go and kill someone, well that kid was seriously ****ed up in the head to start with. But the parents are so stupid that they will say "my darling was such a darling until he started listening to Marilyn Manson's music". Yah right, no music could put murderous thoughts into anyone's head.

It's just another stupid way of society trying to pin the blame on anything but the actual bad source.

Listening to Marilyn Manson is not a sin, why should it be? I certainly won't be told what to listen to or what not to listen to by the church, by anybody. The church is hardly one to talk anyway, since it is so corrupt as it is.

If you are a good person, then at the end, that is all that matters. It doesn't matter what kind of music you listen to - be it Marilyn Manson, techno, reggae, etc.

r@t

smidgy wrote:

I dont think listening to that type of music is a sin - actually I dont think that statement even makes sense. But this type of music is influencial on younger people and does not direct them towards God in any manner. Remember that Satan is very subtle and his influence is everywhere and what gives him more power is that people do not acknowledge that his influence is everywhere - in subtle sugestions in the media , in music, in literature etc. Anything that leads people from God could be interpreted as being anti-god.

i'd have to agree with you here. imo the biggest threat we face this century is commericalism. the greed of most people facinates me, what do people actully think they are going to do with all their money (people like bill gates, donald trump, ect) greed is number one motive for most crimes. forget about looking to goths and the like when things go wrongs- look to the greedy business men and politicians.

Ania

I don't think that his anti- religion (not only christianity) view is the problem with Marilyn Manson.
The problem is his (partly hidden) admiration for the Nazis.
Everybody knows what happened at Columbine high school...

Talliesin

Ania wrote:

Everybody knows what happened at Columbine high school...

Yes, two people, neither of whom are Marilyn Manson, shot people. Do you have some sort of point?

Syd_Vicious

neuro-praxis wrote:

Right. So when the curtain was torn in the temple, symbolising that Christ had ripped away the barriers between us and God, this did not represent that our sin had been covered by the Saviour? Jesus makes it clear that a high standard of behaviour is expected from Christians, but this is only in the context of grace, and an acceptance that nothing we do can make God love us more or less.

I certainly do not consider knowing God's will "a curse". However, what is a curse, is being bound by the law and not bound by a desire to know God and serve God. When we are obsessed with rules, we begin to play the make-it-up-as-you-go-along-Christian-game. The aim of the game is to be the "best Christian" and to *appear* as holy as possible, thus pushing you onto the highest moral ground you can get to. When you can pour your concentration into genuine humility and servitude, then you become freed. Because sin itself is slavery.

You've hit the nail right on the head there neuro-praxis...Christianity is about being humble, spreading the Word, serving and living a life that is pleasing to God and not about following rules for the sake of following rules or trying to be a better Christian than someone else. Christianity wouldn't be so mocked and looked down on today if Christians lived as God would have them to live rather than the "I'll do what I please but go to church on a Sunday just to keep God happy" attitude that seems to be so prevalent IMHO

As far as Marilyn Manson goes...considering he is a reverend in the Church of Satan, has talked about the "facism" of Christianity and how he would like to be remembered as the person who brings down Christianity, has an album called Anti-Christ Superstar and songs about various evil perversions and even sacrificed his own kid to Satan (it's in his book but I heard about it on a documentary)...it wouldn't be acceptable to listen to his music, it's obviously anti-God and would direct the people who would listen to it away from God

neuro-praxis

Ah Talliesin, you're always a delightfully logical breath of fresh air.

Ania

Talliesin wrote:

Yes, two people, neither of whom are Marilyn Manson, shot people. Do you have some sort of point?

However, these two boys took Marilyn Manson as an idol.
And idols, i.e. popular people should be positive idols, not nazi admirers.
Labil people are influenced very easily.

Talliesin

Ania wrote:

However, these two boys took Marilyn Manson as an idol.
And idols, i.e. popular people should be positive idols, not nazi admirers.
Labil people are influenced very easily.

So, his telling people to think for themselves (I'm assuming you have listened to his lyrics) lead them to shoot up a school full of kids. There's some might weird implications in that.

Ania

Talliesin wrote:

So, his telling people to think for themselves (I'm assuming you have listened to his lyrics) lead them to shoot up a school full of kids. There's some might weird implications in that.

His lyrics are filled with hatred.
And, as I said, labil and weak people get easily influenced by this sort of things.

egan007

Ania wrote:

His lyrics are filled with hatred.
And, as I said, labil and weak people get easily influenced by this sort of things.

Have you considered the fact that they may be poor depressed abused mentially ill might have somehting to do with it - Oh no of course it's MM he looks evil

Lynibeth

I'm 100% atheist but also a fan of manson and other metal music. I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong because nothing is right nor wrong but thinking makes it so. I believe everybody has the right to express their opinions and is that a sin? there's nothing wrong with manson's music.

Tobias Greeshman

Ania wrote:

His lyrics are filled with hatred

Well it is heavy metal, your not exactly gonna get a love song here, also not all his songs are full of hatred! Look at his last album very little angry lyrics there! In essense would you like comparing Eminem's Kim to any of Mansons songs and im sure that you'll be hard pressed to find some of Mansons stuff worse.

The man is controversial and trying to provoke change, by making people stop and think about themselves and their beliefs, just because everyone you know has a certain belief, thats not to say that you should have this belief too, unless of course you unexplicably have the same belief aswell! What is so wrong with this, also a lot of what he does too is not just a anti-christianity but how the modern media is corrupt and how it brainwashes a large section of the public. He's writen a good few songs on this topic Mr. Superstar, Rock Is Dead, The Dope Show!

Ania wrote:

However, these two boys took Marilyn Manson as an idol.
And idols, i.e. popular people should be positive idols, not nazi admirers.

The man is an entertainer plain and simple, there's no unwritten rule that say he has to be optimistic and positive in how he comes across, he serves his purpose as an entertainer if he doesn't then why has he so many fans. If you want to take this sort of reasoning your gonna have to put Ozzy Osbourne in the same boat, one of his fans committed suicide in the 80's.

As for the columbine incident Manson didnt tell them to pick up a gun and kill innocent students. I think Micheal Moores Bowling For Columbine summed up my thoughts on the entire incident, the people at fault were not manson, they were: media, parents, society and gun laws!

Excelsior

Lynibeth wrote:

I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong because nothing is right nor wrong but thinking makes it so.

If JustHalf ever meets you in real life he will have to punch you square on in the face now to see if you actually believe what you have just claimed.

Your opinion intruiges me. I wonder what a victim of the Darfur genocide would say to your idea that evil isn't real.

Lynibeth wrote:

I believe everybody has the right to express their opinions and is that a sin? there's nothing wrong with manson's music.

There is nothing sinful in simply expressing your opinion. Certainly the way you express your opinion can be hurtful.

Silas wrote:

I think Micheal Moores Bowling For Columbine summed up my thoughts on the entire incident, the people at fault were not manson, they were: media, parents, society and gun laws!

I know this is radical, but I always suspected that the Columbine murderers were responsible for the Columbine murders.

Tobias Greeshman

Excelsior wrote:

I know this is radical, but I always suspected that the Columbine murderers were responsible for the Columbine murders.

I meant in what drove the murderers to do what they did! God loves a smartass!

Lynibeth

Excelsior wrote:

If JustHalf ever meets you in real life he will have to punch you square on in the face now to see if you actually believe what you have just claimed.

Actually you're right. I THINK that punching somebody is wrong so I wouldn't appreciate it but for someone who's punching me who thinks its right won't care! I don't need to prove my beliefs to you after all, if you're christian, you certainly can't prove them to me. I thought your religion was about respecting others. Why can't you repect manson's choice? He's not harming anybody. He'll only harm you if you let him. If you don't want to let him.. Then turn his music off. I don't sit in church thinking how evil religion is, I'd leave! You've got to stop the stereotyping and hating and get on with your lives because I don't think manson's losing any sleep over what you think

smidgy

Now we are taking about 'proving beliefs' -would you believe it!

I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong because nothing is right nor wrong but
thinking makes it so.

Coming from a right wing perspective that is one of the most naive statements I have ever read - but just thinking about it i realise that it is one of the biggest confusions that exists in modern society. Does evil exist? If you accept that it does then it opens up a whole big can of worms. Is killing the only evil or are thoughts and words good and evil too - where do you draw the limits of evil?

Marlin manson is primarily a commercial product that finds a large market in the population that believe that evil doesnt exist or simply just don’t care if it does. If there is no black and white, only shades of grey then you probably wont ever take a stand against anything - how comfortable! People think themselves so clever these days that they dont have to recognise good and evil because they are kinda above all that nonsense and everything is just somewhere in the middle. Marlin manson is a musician - Ill give him that, but how do we classify his message and his words. He has an influence on hundreds of thousands of young listeners who are seeking out their paths in life. He is not a force for good and he’s not a killer either so lets just pop him in that large middle ground where people seem to classify everything these days. Is everybody comfortable in their seats?

Lynibeth

Your beliefs are just ridiculous and your justifications, just as bad. Evil does not exist! Neither do good deeds. Marilyn manson is commercial I'll agree but so is this so called God in which you all believe. Think about how ridiculous that is! You don't need to believe in evil to live a full life. I think that those who don't care whether evil exists are right! Because they don't class it as evil. You're wrong. You can go ahead and continue to live your life in shame believing everything is a sin but it's not going to do you any good!

robindch

> Coming from a right wing perspective [...]
> If there is no black and white, only shades of grey then
> you probably wont ever take a stand against anything [...]
> that large middle ground where people seem to classify
> everything these days

hmm... the strange "right-wing" notion that the only worthy and honest people are the ones who "take stands against" things, and that there's something derelict about those thoughtful people who've matured to the point that they see the world in many colors, and not just the wide-eyed black and white which we all learn as children.

As for comfort? Well, what's easier: to approach an issue headlong, to declare it colorless and in want of a good standing against, or to sit and think for a while, seeing it from other points of view?

Some people sits and thinks, others just sits*

- robin.

(*) with apologies to Satchel Paige.

r@t

Ania wrote:

I don't think that his anti- religion (not only christianity) view is the problem with Marilyn Manson.
The problem is his (partly hidden) admiration for the Nazis.
Everybody knows what happened at Columbine high school...

ok the fact is marilyn manson does not admire nazis. where you pull that from??...... just becauce he refferences the swastika. hitler or the nazis werent the only ppl to use the swastika (it was originally a hindu symbol). maybe youve seen him wearing a nazi ss officer? so is prince harry a nazi or supporter? is robert carlye a nazi or supporter? (he played hitler in a film about his life) ,see the connection?. you might find it interesting to know that manson has worked very closely in recent years with the artist goddfried helnwein (austrian)- an artist commited to outlining the atrosities of the nazi regeime. now if mason was a nazi admirer i dont think they would be able to work together on this subject. when manson references the swastica (just as helnwein does) it is pointing at the abuse of power inherient in predjuice controling governing systems (by the way manson is also a painter/artist). when you reference something it dosent, in fact, always mean you support it, you are taking things to literaly. i mean if anyone these days trys to express themselves artisticly ppl automatically jump to conclusions. take for example marcus harveys portrait of myra hindley (chid killer) featured in the sensations exhibition in london 1997- ppl instantly jumped to the conclusion that he supported her behaviour. and tried to destroy the painting, without stoping to think about what it meant or why he used the image of her ofr bothering to go out and educate themselves about art and symbols and how they work. just as you have about manson. please find another excuse for the colmbine murders- you dont hear me screaming wako. think about it.

at this point b4 anyone tries to say i dont know what im saying, id like to point out that i am an artist myself, that i have researched this subject extensively , i wrote my thesis on it. so please no more posts saying nazi this and nazi that.

smidgy

Your beliefs are just ridiculous.
You're wrong.

The arrogance of these statements are just something else. So I guess thats case closed - on the strength of that argument the misteries of the universe have been solved! Come on man - open your eyes and have respect for what others see from their eyes. I used to look out through eyes like yours and think as you do. There is more to music that the sound it makes, it is influencial - for example look at the way the younger followers of MM dress - they dress in the same manner as he does - so it is influencial. It is the limits of this influence that we are discussing and whether this influence is for better or for worse. Is beating a preson right or wrong? Do you see it just as an act that just is. Do you not acknowledge the definitions of the words good and evil?

You can go ahead and continue to live your life in shame believing everything is a sin but it's not going to do you any good!

What are you talking about? Listening to Marlin manson is not a sin, I never said it was and its fine if you are listening to it simply as music. But if it starts messing with a 13 year olds thought processes then there is something wrong with it.

You don't need to believe in evil to live a full life.

What are you talking about ??? (That seems to be comming from you - not me)

As for comfort? Well, what's easier: to approach an issue headlong, to declare it colorless and in want of a good standing against, or to sit and think for a while, seeing it from other points of view?

Are you honestly saying its easier not to take a stand than to take a stand?

Lynibeth

"open your eyes and have respect for what others see from their eyes"

Oh my.. You're saying that to me smidgy?? .. .Hmmm..

Yes the case is closed. Everything in life is bound to mess with people's thought processes anyway. For example, Religion.

That's all I'm saying!

Excelsior

Lynibeth wrote:

I don't think anyone has the right to say what's right or what's wrong

Lynibeth wrote:

You're wrong.

I'm not trying to convince you of the truth of Christianity or the validity behind the belief that God became man in the form of a Jewish carpenter from Palestine called Jesus of Nazareth. I haven't even once argued for that on this thread.

Neither have I argued against Manson. I think his music is boring and bland but then again, Ben Folds and Radiohead are my favourite musicians so Manson probably was never going to get near my radar. I have in fact argued that people who attribute blame for Columbine style massacres to Manson should maybe get their ethics in a line and hold the primary agents responsible- the murderers themselves. If I was to sum up my attitude to Manson, this article from theonion.com would do it.

What I am trying to do is show you that your argument is completely incoherent. If there is no such thing as right and wrong then I am under no obligation to hold your opinions as right, regardless of how well they are argued. Following your viewpoint to their logical end, Just Half will administer the beating and I will ignore it completely, for that is the path you have laid out for us.

Davei141

Haha you think that article was real?

Playboy

Whats right or wrong always has been and always will be a matter of perspective

Excelsior

The article is certainly "real" in that it exists. However, something sourced from theonion.com is not "real" in the sense of broadsheet journalism. So I guess it depends on what you mean by "real". Maybe the relativists here can help us out?

Playboy, is that true or is it just your perspective?

Playboy

Excelsior wrote:

Playboy, is that true or is it just your perspective?

Its just my perspective .. I cant be a hypocrite now can I

marilyn

r@t wrote:

just wondered what the christian stance is on listening to music by the supposed "satanic"artist marilyn manson.

is it a sin? and if so why.[/






i love marilyn manson and i am cathlic i think that everything manson does is for show i think it a act it to shock people to get atention. he want to act crazy on stage i say let him but of stage he is a nice guy. so some people think he is bad im not one of them. and also it is probly not a bad sin because god knows its an act.