marilyn manson.... is it acceptable?

r@t · 06-03-2005 07:23PM #1

just wondered what the christian stance is on listening to music by the supposed "satanic"artist marilyn manson.

is it a sin? and if so why.

neuro-praxis · 06-03-2005 08:24PM

What a Christian listens to or doesn't listen to is a matter of personal taste and opinion. Who exactly would be deeming listening to any kind of music a sin?

Sin is much less about what you do and much more about the state of your heart.

There aren't hard and fast rules here. The whole point of Christianity is that God recognised that people were unable to live by the law and so sent Jesus to redeem them. By Jesus dying, all men were released from sin and by proxy, from the law (legalism).

r@t, maybe you should finish up your points on one thread before starting a new one.

r@t · 06-03-2005 10:54PM

i say this be cause ive heard that it is satanic - yet i don't know why preople say this. but doesn't the state of your heart depend on what you do?

Talliesin · 07-03-2005 01:22AM

neuro-praxis wrote:

The whole point of Christianity is that God recognised that people were unable to live by the law and so sent Jesus to redeem them. By Jesus dying, all men were released from sin and by proxy, from the law (legalism).

That's an interesting way of putting the difference between the Christian and Jewish relationship between the people and the Divine, but I've never heard it expressed as "the whole point" before. Indeed coming from a Catholic background I was taught that it was more a matter of Jesus bringing things to a sort of inevitable next step (given the claim that he was the Messiah), but then Catholicisim is more legalistic than some other denominations.
Is that a common view in your denomination? (In which case, what denomination is that?) or your own take?

Frank Drebin · 08-03-2005 08:39PM

From what I've heard: it's not the music itself but the effect it has on the listener. ie: Causes the listener to have violent or suicidal tendancies, causes them to swear or curse etc.

I say it wrong!

r@t · 08-03-2005 09:45PM

thanks i didn't know that frank
how does it make people have suicdial tendancies or make them become violent- is it the words or the melody or something?

so should we stear clear of all music with swear words in it?

neuro-praxis · 09-03-2005 03:58PM

Talliesin wrote:

That's an interesting way of putting the difference between the Christian and Jewish relationship between the people and the Divine, but I've never heard it expressed as "the whole point" before. Indeed coming from a Catholic background I was taught that it was more a matter of Jesus bringing things to a sort of inevitable next step (given the claim that he was the Messiah), but then Catholicisim is more legalistic than some other denominations.
Is that a common view in your denomination? (In which case, what denomination is that?) or your own take?

I was being very loose with my language, sorry. I was talking to a r@t, though. (Just kidding, r@t.

) I think that if I was definitively required to write about the "whole point" of Christianity, then I might have been a little more rigorous.

I'm a Christian, worshipping in a Presbyterian church. I worship Presby-style because I like the set-up of accountability there. Also, it's the place I feel God may have directly or indirectly led me to, judging by the relationships and experiences that have formed there over the years.

When I said that "God recognised" I don't mean to suggest that God sort of noticed we weren't coping well with the legalism; of course it is my belief (the orthodox belief) that Jesus' incarnation and subsequent death and ressurrection was planned from the beginning (the book of John begins with - "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"). So, in one sense, it is true to say that Jesus was "the next step" but from another perspective, it is fully innaccurate, because Jesus always Was and Is; Him being Existence itself.

I'm not sure if I have answered your question Talliesin - if I haven't please let me know and I will try harder.

r@t · 09-03-2005 07:02PM

but back to the topic- has no one any opinions on this???

Seed · 09-03-2005 07:07PM

If you follow the bible, not once does it say that listening to Manson is a sin.

Did Jesus say "Listening to Marilyn Manson is a sin" No. No he did not. Anything any Pope or clergy say after this means nothing. They govern and serve the church, they are not the word of Christ.

Tobias Greeshman · 09-03-2005 07:31PM

Firstly Marilyn Manson is not a Satanist, he accepted the title of "Reverend" out of respect for Dr LaVey.

Ive been a fan for a long time and I can honestly say that in no way did I ever hear manson telling anyone to praise Satan or talk about it in any of his songs.

People should read his autobiography, most people I know have read it (christians included) have respected the man and his music much more.

Is it a sin to listen to his music as a christian?
Personally Im a fan of his music, so no for me its not a sin!! The man is creative, intelligent and interesting, and doing something different to anyone else. Im sure when John Milton wrote "Paradise Lost" he possibly got similar rebuke, or when PB Shelley claimed he was an aithiest. All these things happened because society (and christianity) has always being afraid of what is different, and as a result strike out at those they do not understand, or those they fear.

As a christian do what ever you feel happy with, if you think something is morally wrong then you should not do it, but also it should not mean that you should try to have it forcefully removed, because what is morally acceptable to one person is unacceptable to someone else.

JustHalf · 09-03-2005 09:14PM

I'd say that listening to Marilyn Manson is unacceptable because his music is crap. But that's just me being a music fascist.

r@t, you seem to be looking for some legalistic system... a set of hard and fast rules as to what is acceptable and what is not. Sorry, but no such guide exists. The Bible is, for the most part, a story. It is not an exhaustive list of what to do in every possibly circumstance. No such guide exists, and none could exist; certainly not in a tome that (in some printings) can fit in your pocket.

Besides, who gives a sh*t? I'm certain God is less concerned with what music you listen to than what is in your heart.

trust_no_one, that's an odd signature.

Tobias Greeshman · 10-03-2005 11:03AM

JustHalf wrote:

I'd say that listening to Marilyn Manson is unacceptable because his music is crap.

Well each unto his own I guess, though if you could use that reasoning perhaps you could get christianity to stomp out boy/girl-bands... lol

JustHalf wrote:

trust_no_one, that's an odd signature.

Its from a famous philosopher named Fredriech Nietzsche, taken from a book named the The AntiChrist.

r@t · 10-03-2005 02:21PM

i totaly agree with you trust no one. what is his autobiography called?

Tobias Greeshman · 10-03-2005 06:21PM

r@t wrote:

i totaly agree with you trust no one. what is his autobiography called?

His autobiography is called The long hard road out of hell, you agree with me, are you talking about the last post, or the more serious, first one?

crazy angel · 10-03-2005 06:28PM

Frank Drebin wrote:

From what I've heard: it's not the music itself but the effect it has on the listener. ie: Causes the listener to have violent or suicidal tendancies, causes them to swear or curse etc.

yea, but to be influenced by the music enough to be suicidal,
you would have to have definate psychological problems first!

r@t · 10-03-2005 09:33PM

trust_no_one wrote:

you agree with me, are you talking about the last post, or the more serious, first one?

your first post.

archdukefranz · 04-04-2005 11:32AM

What a Christian listens to or doesn't listen to is a matter of personal taste and opinion. Who exactly would be deeming listening to any kind of music a sin?

How about music that encourages people to offer themselves to Satan?
How do you think God feels about people listening to that?

Sin is much less about what you do and much more about the state of your heart.

Speech and Actions effect the state of your heart, hence moot point

There aren't hard and fast rules here. The whole point of Christianity is that God recognised that people were unable to live by the law and so sent Jesus to redeem them. By Jesus dying, all men were released from sin and by proxy, from the law (legalism).

LOL
There are almost as many rules in the new testement as there are in the old.
Jesus said I will remove nothing from the law, nor did he say ANYONE would be released from it!
The Law is there to show people what Gods will is! What a privillage it is to know Gods will, you are treating it like a curse!
The point of Christianity (following Christ) is that salvation is unatainable without the attonement provided by Christ for the going away from Gods will.

so should we stear clear of all music with swear words in it?

I wouldn't advise listening to anything that you wouldn't say yourself.

archdukefranz · 04-04-2005 11:41AM

"Antichrist Superstar"

you built me up with your wishing hell
I didn't have to sell you
you threw your money in the pissing well
you do just what they tell you
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
i shed the skin to feed the fake
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
whose mistake am i anyway?
Cut the head off
Grows back hard
I am the hydra
now you'll see your star
prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclipsed the sun
the angel has spread its wings
the time has come for bitter things
[chorus]

the time has come it is quite clear
our antichrist
is almost here...
it is done

Those are the lyrics to on of his songs

[ Daithí ] · 08-04-2005 01:14AM

JustHalf wrote:

I'd say that listening to Marilyn Manson is unacceptable because his music is crap.

Hehe.

I believe that anyone can listen to whatever they want.

Marilyn Manson isn't a Satanist, I don't think. He does it for attention. I saw a documentary on him on TMF a few months ago. I could be wrong though. ¬_¬

As for swear words in music, they're just words. No different from any other words, in my opinion.

Töpher · 08-04-2005 01:22AM

archdukefranz wrote:

"Antichrist Superstar"

you built me up with your wishing hell
I didn't have to sell you
you threw your money in the pissing well
you do just what they tell you
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
i shed the skin to feed the fake
REPENT, that's what I'm talking about
whose mistake am i anyway?
Cut the head off
Grows back hard
I am the hydra
now you'll see your star
prick your finger it is done
the moon has now eclipsed the sun
the angel has spread its wings
the time has come for bitter things
[chorus]

the time has come it is quite clear
our antichrist
is almost here...
it is done

Those are the lyrics to on of his songs

Where does that tell anyone what to do or who to worship? Yes it uses some words that people who are very into their religion seem to automatically presume are evil, namely Antichrist, followed directly by superstar. He sells records on shock value etc, look beyond the simple textual words to the meaning beyond. It's generally all metaphorial. It has an offensive to Christian track title, but does not condemn the religion or those that follow it, nor does it direct people to Statan or any other such nonsense.

Just my €0.02

Töpher · 08-04-2005 01:25AM

[ Daith&#237 wrote: »

Hehe.

I believe that anyone can listen to whatever they want.

Marilyn Manson isn't a Satanist, I don't think. He does it for attention. I saw a documentary on him on TMF a few months ago. I could be wrong though. ¬_¬

As for swear words in music, they're just words. No different from any other words, in my opinion.

True, he is not a Satanist in the common misconceived worshiper of Satan sense. They are known as devil worshipers. AFAIK Manson goes with the belief that man is Satan, we ourselves are evil, and the worship of yourself is deemed Satanism, yet has nothing to do with a little red man and a pointed stick. Or so he indicates in his book.

Satanism - The worship of ones self (Which would be considered a false God)
Devil Worship - Wishing for a little man with pokers etc

neuro-praxis · 08-04-2005 11:13AM

archdukefranz wrote:

How about music that encourages people to offer themselves to Satan?
How do you think God feels about people listening to that?

I think God has a clear head about teenagers and their need to rebel. Marilyn Manson is full of crap. I'd say God is pretty understanding. Are you telling me you only watch movies that portray sinless people?

Speech and Actions effect the state of your heart, hence moot point.

There is no logic here. Speech and actions may affect the state of your heart, but as we all know, each and every one of us is a hypocrite, and no amount of pretending to be sinless will save us. You can never swear and never watch an 18s movie and you can avoid lapdancing clubs and you can go to church every Sunday but it won't help you get to heaven.

LOL

You didn't actually laugh. What is with your arrogance? We are all on the same side here.

There are almost as many rules in the new testement as there are in the old.
Jesus said I will remove nothing from the law, nor did he say ANYONE would be released from it!
The Law is there to show people what Gods will is! What a privillage it is to know Gods will, you are treating it like a curse!
The point of Christianity (following Christ) is that salvation is unatainable without the attonement provided by Christ for the going away from Gods will.

Right. So when the curtain was torn in the temple, symbolising that Christ had ripped away the barriers between us and God, this did not represent that our sin had been covered by the Saviour? Jesus makes it clear that a high standard of behaviour is expected from Christians, but this is only in the context of grace, and an acceptance that nothing we do can make God love us more or less.

I certainly do not consider knowing God's will "a curse". However, what is a curse, is being bound by the law and not bound by a desire to know God and serve God. When we are obsessed with rules, we begin to play the make-it-up-as-you-go-along-Christian-game. The aim of the game is to be the "best Christian" and to *appear* as holy as possible, thus pushing you onto the highest moral ground you can get to. When you can pour your concentration into genuine humility and servitude, then you become freed. Because sin itself is slavery.

I wouldn't advise listening to anything that you wouldn't say yourself.

You must walk around with your eyes shut and your ears closed then!

pretty-in-pink · 06-05-2005 04:11PM

I don't like that whol metal style syuff, and from my experience the fans of it are total jerks. I don't think listening to its a sin, you can't blame music for making someone do something or think somthing. Not really.....maybe it has an affect after a certain length of time. Like brain-washing.

Anyway, if you are a decent, good person, then your music choice shouldn't matter. Its your actions and the way you feel about thm that can be a sin.

As for those who are very sinful....sure we can pray for them to find the light...

smidgy · 08-05-2005 06:37PM

I dont think listening to that type of music is a sin - actually I dont think that statement even makes sense. But this type of music is influencial on younger people and does not direct them towards God in any manner. Remember that Satan is very subtle and his influence is everywhere and what gives him more power is that people do not acknowledge that his influence is everywhere - in subtle sugestions in the media , in music, in literature etc. Anything that leads people from God could be interpreted as being anti-god.
If someone wants to listen to this type of music for its content and message and not simply for its tunes/melodies(for want of a better word) he is already wandering in the wrong direction. This music will consolidate that persons misguidance.
Remember it is the choices we make from the influences we absorb that determines the road we take.

tinkerbell · 08-05-2005 06:53PM

I think that people who blame Marilyn Manson for certain things are just looking for someone to pin the blame on. That's the extent of it.

He is not responsible for kids going off doing violent things or whatever. If a kid is listening to Marilyn Manson and then decides to go and kill someone, well that kid was seriously ****ed up in the head to start with. But the parents are so stupid that they will say "my darling was such a darling until he started listening to Marilyn Manson's music". Yah right, no music could put murderous thoughts into anyone's head.

It's just another stupid way of society trying to pin the blame on anything but the actual bad source.

Listening to Marilyn Manson is not a sin, why should it be? I certainly won't be told what to listen to or what not to listen to by the church, by anybody. The church is hardly one to talk anyway, since it is so corrupt as it is.

If you are a good person, then at the end, that is all that matters. It doesn't matter what kind of music you listen to - be it Marilyn Manson, techno, reggae, etc.

r@t · 31-05-2005 06:33PM

smidgy wrote:

I dont think listening to that type of music is a sin - actually I dont think that statement even makes sense. But this type of music is influencial on younger people and does not direct them towards God in any manner. Remember that Satan is very subtle and his influence is everywhere and what gives him more power is that people do not acknowledge that his influence is everywhere - in subtle sugestions in the media , in music, in literature etc. Anything that leads people from God could be interpreted as being anti-god.

i'd have to agree with you here. imo the biggest threat we face this century is commericalism. the greed of most people facinates me, what do people actully think they are going to do with all their money (people like bill gates, donald trump, ect) greed is number one motive for most crimes. forget about looking to goths and the like when things go wrongs- look to the greedy business men and politicians.

Ania · 02-06-2005 07:58AM

I don't think that his anti- religion (not only christianity) view is the problem with Marilyn Manson.
The problem is his (partly hidden) admiration for the Nazis.
Everybody knows what happened at Columbine high school...

Talliesin · 02-06-2005 09:19AM

Ania wrote:

Everybody knows what happened at Columbine high school...

Yes, two people, neither of whom are Marilyn Manson, shot people. Do you have some sort of point?

Syd_Vicious · 02-06-2005 01:23PM

neuro-praxis wrote:

Right. So when the curtain was torn in the temple, symbolising that Christ had ripped away the barriers between us and God, this did not represent that our sin had been covered by the Saviour? Jesus makes it clear that a high standard of behaviour is expected from Christians, but this is only in the context of grace, and an acceptance that nothing we do can make God love us more or less.

I certainly do not consider knowing God's will "a curse". However, what is a curse, is being bound by the law and not bound by a desire to know God and serve God. When we are obsessed with rules, we begin to play the make-it-up-as-you-go-along-Christian-game. The aim of the game is to be the "best Christian" and to *appear* as holy as possible, thus pushing you onto the highest moral ground you can get to. When you can pour your concentration into genuine humility and servitude, then you become freed. Because sin itself is slavery.

You've hit the nail right on the head there neuro-praxis...Christianity is about being humble, spreading the Word, serving and living a life that is pleasing to God and not about following rules for the sake of following rules or trying to be a better Christian than someone else. Christianity wouldn't be so mocked and looked down on today if Christians lived as God would have them to live rather than the "I'll do what I please but go to church on a Sunday just to keep God happy" attitude that seems to be so prevalent IMHO

As far as Marilyn Manson goes...considering he is a reverend in the Church of Satan, has talked about the "facism" of Christianity and how he would like to be remembered as the person who brings down Christianity, has an album called Anti-Christ Superstar and songs about various evil perversions and even sacrificed his own kid to Satan (it's in his book but I heard about it on a documentary)...it wouldn't be acceptable to listen to his music, it's obviously anti-God and would direct the people who would listen to it away from God

neuro-praxis · 02-06-2005 01:23PM

Ah Talliesin, you're always a delightfully logical breath of fresh air.

Ania · 03-06-2005 12:45PM

Talliesin wrote:

Yes, two people, neither of whom are Marilyn Manson, shot people. Do you have some sort of point?

However, these two boys took Marilyn Manson as an idol.
And idols, i.e. popular people should be positive idols, not nazi admirers.
Labil people are influenced very easily.

marilyn manson.... is it acceptable?

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