Won't hear too many people complaining about these verdicts

nlgbbbblth · 15-03-2005 11:31PM #1

as daveirl said on another forum

Another nail in the coffin of the 'they would have got it much tougher if they were working class' argument.

:rolleyes:

pricks
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0315/forsmarkl.html

MorningStar · 16-03-2005 01:25PM

You have a point but ...

It is heavily rumoured the person who most certainly did damage in Anibels was whizzed out of the country and has not returned since. There were also apparently over 30 witnesses who saw no details. Over 6 people kicking one person is a little different to 3 people both unacceptable.

Compare the Anibals case to the case at Coolock UCI and you may have a fairer example.

Somebody from a priviledged situation commiting the same crime as a person with a lot less options I think should be treated more harshly.

Linoge · 16-03-2005 01:33PM

MorningStar wrote:

Somebody from a priviledged situation commiting the same crime as a person with a lot less options I think should be treated more harshly.

Well, considering that that guy in Coolock was stabbed for his mobile phone (ie. a knife was carried around with the killer), and in the Annabels case they was a drunken brawl with both parties fighting (with no lethal weapons involved), I think there is a great difference.

MorningStar · 16-03-2005 01:53PM

Yeap, the knife would make me want them to go to jail but It was the cases that should be looked at.

Two of the ones involved in the robbery became a witness for the prosecution. THey admitted involvement and got a sentence (not too sure how long) They all had state provided lawyers. The person who did the stabbing had also been drinking and smoking for 8 hours.

6 people kicking a person to death. They got the best lawyers and the one person who admitted hitting the person in court was released.

How the cases were handled is really the point of comparison not the actual outcome.

Linoge · 16-03-2005 02:04PM

Its hard to make a judgement on the case about the Swedish guy though. In the link no background information was given on the accused, or how the death happened. It's also worth noting that none of the dead mans family were even present at the trial - "to see justice done" as it were.

I admit that I don't have all the information regarding the Coolock or Annabels deaths, but I can imagine that in the case of the Coolock stabbing, the 3 defendants probably had about 70 previous convictions each. Of course I'm just speculating. Does anyone know?

MorningStar · 16-03-2005 03:12PM

As far as I know none of the three had convictions prior to this. Not 100% sure.

I was mugged at the same place in Coolock a few years ago and the Garadi knew it was a trouble spot as did the security gaurds. The guy who actually stabbed the kid went home and got a knife and his older brother tried to stop him but still let him go out.

The area these kids came from is one of the most disadvantaged places in Ireland with all the social problems that entails. If anybody was raised in this area there is a high chance they will get involved in crime and have little social consience.

I want these people in prison beside those involved in the anibels case.

The worst part is the people from Coolock would probably end up in prison one way or the other.

Hobbes · 16-03-2005 03:32PM

MorningStar wrote:

The worst part is the people from Coolock would probably end up in prison one way or the other.

Way to go with that tar brush.

_blank_ · 16-03-2005 04:11PM

Yeah, thanks.

:rolleyes:

In fact the place the lad who did the stabbing is from is not even in Coolock, so there goes your "one of the most disadvantaged areas in Ireland" crap. If someone is prepared to go home and get a knife, they obviously have the intention of stabbing someone. I don't care if they are from Calcutta or bleedin Monaco, they are still scum.

Someone dying in a drunken brawl is completely different. I doubt the lads in the Annabels case actually decided that night to go out to kill someone.

MorningStar · 16-03-2005 04:39PM

Hobbes wrote:

Way to go with that tar brush.

Yeap considering I am from there. The highest drug seizure rate is Coolock. It also had the largest prison population in Ireland for about 10 years. I use Coolock as the name as it the police district that the murderer was in

seansouth wrote:

Yeah, thanks.

:rolleyes:

In fact the place the lad who did the stabbing is from is not even in Coolock, so there goes your "one of the most disadvantaged areas in Ireland" crap. If someone is prepared to go home and get a knife, they obviously have the intention of stabbing someone. I don't care if they are from Calcutta or bleedin Monaco, they are still scum.

Someone dying in a drunken brawl is completely different. I doubt the lads in the Annabels case actually decided that night to go out to kill someone.

You are both missing the point all should be in jail.

If you don't think the environment you are brought up in effects your future or values you are mad. Not everybody will be evil scum but if there is a good chance that many will be. If you think your great moral views are a gift from God as opposed to social consqences from your environment I bow to the chosen one.

Kingsize · 16-03-2005 04:43PM

i wish people would stop using the evening herald type "killed for his PHone" excuse in the coolock case, the kid was stabbed to death after the scumbags had taken his phone,also as far as im aware nobody in the anabels case threatened witnesses in the courtroom.anyhow there was a clear cut perpertrator in the coolock case not in the annabels one.
im from coolock i grew up in bonnybrook & Darndale i didnt end up in jail with
little or no social conscience .btw the kid who was convicted was from Edenmore -no offence but its hardly any different from coolock.

MorningStar · 16-03-2005 04:56PM

I agree these guys are scum just saying they have been treated very differently . The legal system was not equal in both cases was the point. Not everybody from a disadvantages will becomne a criminal but they are more likely. It's not genetic but situation that drives many parts of your life

_blank_ · 16-03-2005 05:01PM

MorningStar wrote:

If you don't think the environment you are brought up in effects your future or values you are mad. Not everybody will be evil scum but if there is a good chance that many will be. If you think your great moral views are a gift from God as opposed to social consqences from your environment I bow to the chosen one.

There is more of a chance of me stabbing someone to death than someone from, say, Foxrock?

Because I grew up in a so called "Deprived Area"?

Get a grip lad, I am a person from Coolock, and I would never think of stabbing someone. Neither, might I add, would my friends, some of whom are also from Coolock.

You say you are from Coolock, but I don't care where you are from. You seem to think that a majority of people from this area have the potential for evil.

Not everybody will be evil scum but if there is a good chance that many will be.

Have you any evidence to back this up?

I can say that I know NO-ONE currently serving a prison sentence. Good luck? I doubt it.

MorningStar · 16-03-2005 05:41PM

seansouth wrote:

There is more of a chance of me stabbing someone to death than someone from, say, Foxrock?

Because I grew up in a so called "Deprived Area"?

Get a grip lad, I am a person from Coolock, and I would never think of stabbing someone. Neither, might I add, would my friends, some of whom are also from Coolock.

You say you are from Coolock, but I don't care where you are from. You seem

Have you any evidence to back this up?

The sad truth is yes you are more likely to be involved in criminal activity, die a violent death, be paid below average industrial wage, become a drug addict, have a poor diet and generally do worse than the guy from Foxrock. If you need actual data I don't think it will do you any good because you are blind to the obvious. :rolleyes:

Ever heard about the poverty trap? Why do you think the majority of criminals in Dublin come from 4 areas? Do you think it's the geography or the social circumstances in the areas?

If you are from Foxrock you will have good chance of going to college if your from Coolock you have less chance of going to college and more chance of going to prison. If you don't believe that I am not going to search the net to give you data.

nlgbbbblth · 16-03-2005 09:59PM

Linoge wrote:

Its hard to make a judgement on the case about the Swedish guy though. In the link no background information was given on the accused, or how the death happened.

The accused (bar one) are all from "working class" estates in New Ross. I know for a fact that they are scumbags.

Linoge wrote:

It's also worth noting that none of the dead mans family were even present at the trial - "to see justice done" as it were.

Well, he was Swedish - so perhaps the distance
Friends of his were there though.

nlgbbbblth · 16-03-2005 10:02PM

MorningStar wrote:

Somebody from a priviledged situation commiting the same crime as a person with a lot less options I think should be treated more harshly.

That's inverted snobbery rubbish.

They should be treated the same way.

The simple fact is that most people who live in deprived areas are normal, decent individuals. A small minority are not. Blaming society or lack of opportunities is a cop-out.

My point is that there is no outcry about the sentences in the Forsmark case as the perpetrators were "working class". It is as if this excuses the murder - going by your logic.

gurramok · 16-03-2005 10:43PM

MorningStar wrote:

Ever heard about the poverty trap? Why do you think the majority of criminals in Dublin come from 4 areas? Do you think it's the geography or the social circumstances in the areas?

Care to enlighten us on these 4 areas or are you inciting a flame war ?

Crania · 17-03-2005 03:00AM

I actully live in New Ross where Forsmark was murdered and I honestly believe that the people who were accused of killing him didn't kill him but they are guilty of being a scumbag like most people in this dirty rotten excuse for a town.

Nermal · 17-03-2005 11:40AM

seansouth wrote:

There is more of a chance of me stabbing someone to death than someone from, say, Foxrock?

Because I grew up in a so called "Deprived Area"?

Get a grip lad, I am a person from Coolock, and I would never think of stabbing someone. Neither, might I add, would my friends, some of whom are also from Coolock.

Did you fail statistics?

Megatron · 17-03-2005 11:49AM

Justice is blind .. well it should be.

However with the right "money" you can restore sight to it.

The law is there for everyone, the point in where it becomes the spirit of the law is when you have a Judge and/or jury . Lawyers play on the heartstrings of both of these to try and win the case when the evidence is not there to do the case for them.

Yes you came from a bad area, yes you had a tough child hood.
You still killed someone, there for you get sent to prison and serve you time for your crime ... plain and simple.

Stark · 17-03-2005 11:53AM

Nermal wrote:

Did you fail statistics?

People from Coolock have a 110% chance of failing statistics. That's statistical fact

MorningStar · 17-03-2005 01:44PM

gurramok wrote:

Care to enlighten us on these 4 areas or are you inciting a flame war ?

Look don't believe me if you want. I don't Normally store newspaper articles and radio shows to prove everything I say. I have read on numerous articles about crime, poverty and education and no matter what country you are in certain elements remain. Poorly educated people are more likely to poor. Poor people are more likely to comit crime. This is fact

There are 4 areas in Dublin that produce the majority of Dublin prisoners. If I remember correctly it's Tallagh, Coolock, Inner city and Blancherdstown. Not sure about the exact details. It has been mentioned on the radio and newspapers many times. Sorry If I don't have the stats to hand but if i ever find a link I will post it.

Who is more likely to punch you in the face a guy wearing a tracksuit and soverin rings or a guy in a suit with a brief case? If you see many people in suits in an area I will take the area is safer than an area with people mostly in tracksuits. If you feel differently that is your right but If you think Coolock is as good an environment to bring up your kids as Foxrock most people will say you are wrong without any statistics.

Hobbes · 17-03-2005 02:28PM

MorningStar wrote:

Yeap considering I am from there.

Wow.. so do I. I also have relations in coolock area and friends in Coolock/Darndale general area. None of them are criminals, but have to put up with the same crap you spout from people when they are going for job interviews and what not.

Just because your quoting figures or happen to hang around with Criminals doesn't mean everyone who lives there is one.

Look don't believe me if you want. I don't Normally store newspaper articles and radio shows to prove everything I say. I have read on numerous articles about crime, poverty and education and no matter what country you are in certain elements remain. Poorly educated people are more likely to poor. Poor people are more likely to comit crime. This is fact

So you are basing your opinion on what exactly? So you dont have paper cuttings yet you cited you read numerous articles. So search your memory and find relevent material on the net.

Stark · 17-03-2005 02:33PM

Wow.. so do I. I also have relations in coolock area and friends in Coolock/Darndale general area. None of them are criminals, but have to put up with the same crap you spout from people when they are going for job interviews and what not.

Really? What gets said to them in job interviews? I'm pretty sure social background falls under the categories of illegal discrimination according to the Equality Act.

Hobbes · 17-03-2005 02:43PM

Stark wrote:

Really? What gets said to them in job interviews? I'm pretty sure social background falls under the categories of illegal discrimination according to the Equality Act.

Indeed it is. It is not as bad as it was say 10 years ago, but they wouldn't even get a foot in the door into an interview. Many of my friends would put a different address on the CV as they had to put up with that crap.

Myself had a similar problem when going for work experience in development for a certain famous company. Up until the point where I told them where I lived the interview went well. 5 minutes after telling him the area (he went out to check where that was) the interviewer removed all the items from the desk that they let me play with and then told me I would be better suited for a job for my level.

I would of thought people would of grown beyond that in all that time. Guess not.

nlgbbbblth · 17-03-2005 02:47PM

CoolCiaran wrote:

I actully live in New Ross where Forsmark was murdered and I honestly believe that the people who were accused of killing him didn't kill him but they are guilty of being a scumbag like most people in this dirty rotten excuse for a town.

I spent the first nineteen years of my life in New Ross and my parents still live there. It's not a good town but it's the only place I can call "home" - despite having my own house now and not having lived in New Ross since 1991

WhiteWashMan · 17-03-2005 02:54PM

MorningStar wrote:

Somebody from a priviledged situation commiting the same crime as a person with a lot less options I think should be treated more harshly.

why do you think a different sentence is needed for someone because of the amount of money they have, or their background?

what a ridiculous thing to say!

Hobbes · 17-03-2005 03:05PM

MorningStar wrote:

Who is more likely to punch you in the face a guy wearing a tracksuit and soverin rings or a guy in a suit with a brief case?

The guy with the brief case is liable to punch you in a different way. Your rational doesn't make any sense though. Inner city is on your list yet there are loads of people there with suits and some even carry briefcases too.

If you see many people in suits in an area I will take the area is safer than an area with people mostly in tracksuits.

So your basing your crime figures now based on people wearing tracksuits. :rolleyes:

but If you think Coolock is as good an environment to bring up your kids as Foxrock most people will say you are wrong without any statistics.

Well general Foxrock area just recently had a huge drug seiziure so by your flawed logic that means that everyone in Dublin 18 are drug dealers.

MorningStar · 18-03-2005 10:22AM

Hobbes wrote:

The guy with the brief case is liable to punch you in a different way. Your rational doesn't make any sense though. Inner city is on your list yet there are loads of people there with suits and some even carry briefcases too.

So your basing your crime figures now based on people wearing tracksuits. :rolleyes:

As I said you don't have to believe me. I have produced no evidence but I based my opinion on the physcology I studied and crime stats I have read. Just because this information is not generally avilable on line with ease doesn't make it untrue. You have not produced any proven facts making your point either. If you can get the stats my point will be proven.

Hobbes wrote:

Well general Foxrock area just recently had a huge drug seiziure so by your flawed logic that means that everyone in Dublin 18 are drug
dealers.

If you paid attention to what I siad you would know I am saying if you come from a deprived environment you are more "likely" to be involved in criminal activities. More "likely" to earn less than the average wage or be poorly educated.
If 1 In 10 people are more likely to own a pirate DVD in one area (A) and 2 in 5 people in another area (B) are. You will be more "likely" to find a pirate DVD in area B. Not everybody in area B buys pirate DVD but they are more "likely" to.
I don't know where you live now but where I live now I can see the difference between the people in this area and Coolock. There isn't as much graffiti, rubbish on the streets, teenagers drinking on the streets and I haven't noticed a drug dealer on the streets. There are trees,grass verges and people keep their houses presentable. If I based my views on this it would be opinion but I know that there is a link between poverty,crime and education. I want to make sure people in such areas need extra help to become educated as a means out of poverty and hence away from crime. What do you want to do? Just leave them alone as there are no problems in these deprived areas over richer areas? If you think as a Coolock resident you had the same chances as somebody from Foxrock I am shocked you should feel really gratfull because the majority of your neighbours didn't.

MorningStar · 18-03-2005 10:54AM

Some reading material that I could have based my opinion on

http://ideas.repec.org/p/nbr/nberwo/7405.html

http://ideas.repec.org/p/mit/worpap/94-16.html

And this shows how media and the social structure effects individuals around crime and its perception.

http://ideas.repec.org/a/ucp/jpolec/v99y1991i6p1272-95.html

I couldn't find anything saying poor neighbourhoods were the best places to live but if you can I'll read it. :cool:

WhiteWashMan · 18-03-2005 11:14AM

MorningStar wrote:

I couldn't find anything saying poor neighbourhoods were the best places to live but if you can I'll read it. :cool:

now i think you are just deliberately changing the argument becasue you are just plainly wrong and cant back up anything you say.

i have absolutely no proof, no statistics and no scientific evidence, but in my opinion, i think youre a twat.

besides, you havent answered my question.
please do. im very interested to hear what waffle, worry, your opinion on that

PullMyFinger! · 18-03-2005 11:21AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i have absolutely no proof, no statistics and no scientific evidence, but in my opinion, i think youre a twat

How do I report a post to a Mod?

Won't hear too many people complaining about these verdicts

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