Irish - Time to go?

Oral Slang · 16-03-2005 09:37PM

I did all of my schooling through irish - playschool, primary & secondary, so therefore probably didn't have the same difficulties learning the language as others have, but I definitely don't think it should got rid of in schools or made optional..
Its really taken off in some areas in Dublin in the last 10 years. My old primary is totally packed with children who's older brothers & sisters went to the local english school. There are also 2 irish playschools in the area, who are extremely popular.
I load of people I know have said how jealous they are of me that I'm fluent in irish & wished they'd paid more attention in school.
I do think the way it is thought is archaic. They need to start bringing it into the 21st century, if they aren't doing that already (left school 10 years ago, so I've no idea)...
Programmes such as Amu Amigos really help bring irish back into popularity.. If they were to teach it in the same was as french, german etc. are taught, as someone earlier said, then people would be a lot more interested!

Liquorice · 16-03-2005 09:58PM

If I was a dictator in control of this country, I'd have all primary schools teach through the medium of English, except for a few all-Irish schools and schools based in Mosques etc.

The primary Irish curriculum would be revised and the language would be taught as French and German are taught at secondary level. Then, all secondary schools, with the exception of a few again(we cannot expect people from other countries to come to school here with fluent Irish, obviously, and people with learning difficulties would be exempt if they found languages difficult), would use the medium of Irish to teach all subjects, except English. Everyone's fluent. It's not a language to be rejected just because we didn't wander around colonising other countries and having them use our language too. Obviously, third level institutions would use English.

However, I am not a dictator. So, make it compulsory at primary school level, and perhaps at Junior Cert level, and then give people the choice. Also, I'm alright as far as Irish goes because I'm fluent and learn Irish in every class except English, so the abysmal curriculum doesn't affect me, but it does need to be changed. Teach the language like a foreign language at primary and Junior Cert level, at least.

simu · 16-03-2005 10:21PM

magpie wrote:

Thanks, I knew that. My point would be that if you are homogenising it for the purposes of examinations that it ceases to be a living language in any real sense. The very fact that it needed standardisation in 1950 (several hundred years after any other modern european language) is some indication of just how defunct Irish actually was.

Standardisation just involves having standard spellings for words so that people from, say, Donegal and Kerry can read the same newspaper even if they pronounce the words a bit differently. The standard is used pretty much 100% for officialese and at schools to avoid confusing kids who are just learning the language by giving them more than one way to pronounce a word but when normal Irish speakers are writing the language, they often stick words and verbal forms from their own dialects in as well. As for the kids who have learnt the standard version - they will be able to get by with native speakers from any Gaeltacht and if they want to focus on one dialect above the rest later on, that's up to them.

As for the piece you quoted from Pierce, he as creating a *literary* language he could use as an artistic medium - literary language is different to spoken, everyday language in all languages.

And yes, Irish obviously did not have words for today's technology a century ago - Irish speakers aren't psychic futurologists.

As for the Irish spoken on RTÉ - their presenters generally are native speakers or have reached the standard of native speakers and so, their Irish is natural even if it will be a bit more formal than spoken irish in the case of news or current affairs shows - that's not very strange at all.

Your posts make me laugh but I must object at one thing:

But in my experience pro-Irish Language organisations tend to be a bit on the Chucky side. For instance members of the Gaeilge/Trad Music fora on Boards are always the first on the politics board defending Sinn Fein.

I don't know where you got that impression - there may be people who are supportive of both Irish and Sinn Féin but this is certainly not the case for all Irish speakers - I must object to your lumping together all speakers of my first language with a shady political party!

iguana · 16-03-2005 10:26PM

Have you ever seen a mother lean over to her baby and encourage it to talk by going; Me, You, Him, Her, Us, Ye, Them.
Me, You, Him, Her, Us, Ye, Them.
Me, You, Him, Her, Us, Ye, Them.

I'm going to guess that the answer is no. Yet my biggest memory of learning Irish is sitting in class reciting; Mé, tú, Sé, Sí, Sinn, Sibh, Síad.

If schools are going to teach any languages they need to re-examine how humans learn speech in the first place. First they learn sounds, then words, then sentences. After that they start to converse and then reading and writing. When they are confident with all of that, they learn grammer and how to refine their language skills. Schools should copy that process.

SantaHoe · 17-03-2005 01:50AM

Every time this subject is raised, it always boils down to the same tired old arguments.
X: "Irish is important because it defines us culturally."
Y: "Oooh no it doesn't."
X: "Oooh yes it does."
(panto style)
-
X: "Well if we're dropping Irish, why not drop math, english, history (etc)?"
Y: "No but that's different, these other subjects can actually be used in every day life"
X: "Irish IS used in every day life..."
Y: "Yeah by a handfull of chuckies"
X: "I resent that / you're full of shít"
-
Then the thread slowly dies in a drawn-out tit-for-tat quoting war, arguing over irrelevant historical details, with the usual "prove it" / "no you prove it" exchanges.

Do a search for threads on this topic, read them from start to finish and you'll see the pattern.

I wish they'd just open the polls on this and let the Irish public decide what defines them culturally... then we can be finished with this shíte once and for all.
Personally, I think there's a defining line between history and heritage that is entirely subjective, that can never be won by either side through debate... the only important issue is protecting the best interests of Irish people in the here-and-now... and since this is a democracy, why not let the majority decide?

Wibbs · 17-03-2005 02:28AM

Well put Santahoe.

Crania · 17-03-2005 02:40AM

I Irish should be kept compulsory all the way through primary school and secondry school but I think it should be taught differently to the way its being taught now and instead teach it the way European languages are taught.

I also think that all schools in Ireland should be taught through Irish except for a few schools to facilitate for pepole coming into the country who have no Irish at all

the_syco · 17-03-2005 02:44AM

Up untill the famine, Irish was spoken alot. But when the famine happened, people had to goto workhouses to get work and food. In the space of a few years, Irish was killed, by one simple rule "speak english, or you don't get work". Those who didn't speak english didn't get work, thus got no food, thus died. And thus most of the Irish speakers died, and only those who spoke English lived. After that, a mindset that Irish was backwards and English was forwards set in. This killed any chance of Irish making a come-back in the early 19th century.

Also, the statistics were proberly taken by the English. At the workhouses. Under the rule of "speak english, or you don't get work".

Stark wrote:

The syllabus needs to be changed. Irish was by far the hardest subject on the Leaving Cert when I did my Leaving Cert. There needs to be less emphasis on learning off reams of stories and poems and more emphasis on the language itself. I actually enjoyed the oral exam.

Totally agreed. In English, I learnt infomation about the plays, and had discussions about them. In Irish, I was told to learn the poems. Not the language. I know people who can repeat the poems, but thats it. They can't speak the language very fluently.

Wibbs wrote:

Interesting history of the Irish language from an unusual source. I for one didn't know that Elizabeth 1 ordered the production of the bible in Irish
http://wiccaweb.com/irishgaelic.php

I wonder could many people read at that time?

homogenising it for the purposes of examinations

German spoken in north Germany is pronounced differently than it is in south Germany.

Slutmonkey57b · 17-03-2005 03:52AM

I love the old hackneyd "It's the way it's taught" line.

Note this:
When learning English in school, you are NOT taught grammar, structure, or anything else about how the language works - just like Irish class. In fact, learning French was my first introduction to the concept of language structure - at the age of 12. And as for complaints about having to listen to some old poem and then answer questions, was I dreaming in English class when the teacher would pick an old poem, read it out, and then ask questions? I guess I was. Maybe when you're pulled to the front of an Irish class to read some dusty old book it's totally different to being pulled to the front of the English class to read some dusty old book.

Cut the crap. The teaching of Irish is NOT to blame for the failure of the language. It exists because it is propped up at massive cost to the taxpayer, €500m a year in schools alone, TG4 which only gets viewers when an english-language movie is on, forced Irish-language civil service posts, subsidies for Irish schools, subsidies for this and that and the other, Irish-language promotion boards... The money could be spent elsewhere.

And for those that argue "I hated it in school, but I love it now and 'm going to choose to learn it", you're undermining your own argument. If people want to learn it, fine, give them the choice when they're old enough to make it. If they don't, don't force it on them. Saying "I hated it in school and I don't speak it but I'll make sure my kids do!" is about the same too.

Hugh Hefner · 17-03-2005 04:02AM

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

TG4 which only gets viewers when an english-language movie is on

Guilty as charged.

electrode · 17-03-2005 01:30PM

What smart a$s thought it would be a good idea for people from Cork to have to be able to understand Donegal irish (which is like no other type of irish). So they make a tape of people talking about pure useless things like why Sean was late for school and what colour car holpitalized Ailbhe and your supposed to figure out what they're saying. When are you ever going to need to know why Mauras football training was cancelled in irish.

What a waste of time.Stupid stupid language. It should definatly not be mandatory but i dont think that it whould be gotten rid of all together.

And i dont think its fair that you get 10% of your marks extra if you do the L.C or J.C in irish. If you were brought up in an irish speaking area you start with a huge advantage.

SantaHoe · 17-03-2005 02:24PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

When learning English in school, you are NOT taught grammar, structure, or anything else about how the language works - just like Irish class. In fact, learning French was my first introduction to the concept of language structure - at the age of 12.

Wow and all this time I thought it was just me... that I must have been absent on the day they covered English language structure.
I must agree, I was stumped in German class when they were talking about all of this accusative-dative, possessive-noun malarky... there again, they gave inanimate objects gender aswell... freaks.

Blisterman · 17-03-2005 03:15PM

Why dont the government just kill it, you don't see people in America being forced to learn Cherokee and signs in england being bilingual English/Germanic.

Sleepy · 18-03-2005 12:14PM

This really is the one debating subject that's always amazed me. People that are normally lucid, reasoned and intelligent turn into ignoramuses trying to defend the indefensible. The entire purpose of the education system is to enlighten, teach and keep ignorance at the door. However, in this country we seem to favour a dead (to all intents and purposes) language over the imparting of genuine knowledge.

I've been castigated many times for stating that I believe Latin is of more use to the average student (given that it's the basis for many other European languages and it's predominant use in legal and medical fields).

The only economic use for the Irish language is for someone planning to take advantage of the governments backwards views on it.

I am absolutely amazed at the amount of people that have no problem with leaving the Irish population ignorant of far more important fields of education in order to force Irish down the throats of our population.

The fact that we discriminate against non-Irish speakers in our college application system is repulsive to me, as is the same discrimination against non-Irish speakers in public sector employment.

If you see a personal advantage in being able to speak Irish, fine, learn it. I don't see where anyone has the right to force it on others and discriminate against them for not having the same viewpoint. Your desire to learn Irish should not impede on my desire to learn Latin, Spanish or any other subject taught at Leaving Cert level.

English and Maths are essential components of an education as they are the basis from everything from engineering to furniture design and I've yet to come across a job that doesn't involve some level of literacy. The only careers that require a knowledge of Irish are those that attempt to prop up this backwards notion of "Oirishness" that Dev saw in his vision of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and everyone in Ireland working the land.

Slutmonkey57b · 18-03-2005 12:25PM

Sleepy wrote:

The fact that we discriminate against non-Irish speakers in our college application system is repulsive to me,

That's only a problem if you're not going to Trinity. And since there is only one university in Ireland, that's not a problem really.

Heh. Back on topic, I agree with the lack of access to civil service posts. I know at least one talanted waster who would have loved a cushy unionised number in the tax office somewhere. I know one guy who worked for the revenue who said they only had to turn up 4 half days a week and got 2 hours lunch. mmmm sweet. The recent Offical Language Act is another massive waste of resources enacted by the Irish Gestapo on people who have no interest in it.

Make it optional and give people a reason to want to learn it. Leave the rest of us alone please and stop pretending the education system or "De British Government" is to blame.

pickarooney · 18-03-2005 01:19PM

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

I love the old hackneyd "It's the way it's taught" line.

Note this:
When learning English in school, you are NOT taught grammar, structure, or anything else about how the language works - just like Irish class. In fact, learning French was my first introduction to the concept of language structure - at the age of 12. And as for complaints about having to listen to some old poem and then answer questions, was I dreaming in English class when the teacher would pick an old poem, read it out, and then ask questions? I guess I was. Maybe when you're pulled to the front of an Irish class to read some dusty old book it's totally different to being pulled to the front of the English class to read some dusty old book.

Cut the crap. The teaching of Irish is NOT to blame for the failure of the language. It exists because it is propped up at massive cost to the taxpayer, €500m a year in schools alone, TG4 which only gets viewers when an english-language movie is on, forced Irish-language civil service posts, subsidies for Irish schools, subsidies for this and that and the other, Irish-language promotion boards... The money could be spent elsewhere.

And for those that argue "I hated it in school, but I love it now and 'm going to choose to learn it", you're undermining your own argument. If people want to learn it, fine, give them the choice when they're old enough to make it. If they don't, don't force it on them. Saying "I hated it in school and I don't speak it but I'll make sure my kids do!" is about the same too.

Why are you comparing the way the student's native language is taught to the way a non-ntive language is taught as opposed to teh way other non-native languages are taught? If the student spoke Irish as fluently
as he/she did English, there wouldn't be a problem learning to dissect and analyse poems and stories, but the run-before-you-can-walk method of writing essays on emigration, unemployment and the role of rural women in 18th Century Ireland, while ignoring such basic elements as how to talk to people is idiotic. (IMHO)

simu · 18-03-2005 02:03PM

the_syco wrote:

I wonder could many people read at that time?

There would have been people who could read alright but whether they would have wanted to read a Protestant bible is another question!

sleepy wrote:

The only economic use for the Irish language is for someone planning to take advantage of the governments backwards views on it.

There's more to life than economics and furniture design! What about giving people access to a part of their heritage and a culture that's still going on in Ireland? What about stemming the global problem of language death? What about all the people in this country who want their kids to learn Irish? What about those who actually raise their children with Irish?

The only careers that require a knowledge of Irish are those that attempt to prop up this backwards notion of "Oirishness" that Dev saw in his vision of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads and everyone in Ireland working the land.

My career will require a thorough knowledge of Irish (unusual but such careers do exist) and I certainly will not be backing up visions of comely maidens. You obviously don't know much about what those with careers involving Irish actually do.

GuanYin · 18-03-2005 02:06PM

Sleepy wrote:

This really is the one debating subject that's always amazed me. People that are normally lucid, reasoned and intelligent turn into ignoramuses trying to defend the indefensible. The entire purpose of the education system is to enlighten, teach and keep ignorance at the door. However, in this country we seem to favour a dead (to all intents and purposes) language over the imparting of genuine knowledge..

It always amazes me that people who post on threads lamenting the loss of our national identity as a reason to keep out immigrants, then go post wanting to remove teh Irish language....

Sleepy · 18-03-2005 03:25PM

psi wrote:

It always amazes me that people who post on threads lamenting the loss of our national identity as a reason to keep out immigrants, then go post wanting to remove teh Irish language....

psi, if you can point out a single post I've ever made regarding the "loss of our national identity as a reason to keep out immigrants" I'll eat my keyboard. My reasons for wanting a proper immigration department are threefold: transparency, equity and economic. But back on topic:

There's more to life than economics and furniture design!

I agree entirely.

What about giving people access to a part of their heritage and a culture that's still going on in Ireland?

Where did I say I want to deny anyone their right to learn Irish? There's a massive difference between believing that Irish is a waste of resources and that it's compulsory nature in the Irish education system a farce than believing people should be prevented from learning it.

What about stemming the global problem of language death?

I can think of far more serious problems to be dealt with and if I'm entirely honest, I don't regard the death of obsolete languages as a problem. If the human race doesn't blow itself up in the next millenium, I believe we'll all eventually speak the one language.

What about all the people in this country who want their kids to learn Irish? What about those who actually raise their children with Irish?

And what about those people who don't? Is their voice not important? Again, I don't call for Irish to be banned, just for the current wasting of money on it to be stopped, the discrimination against non-Irish speakers to end and the removal of it's compulsory status.

My career will require a thorough knowledge of Irish (unusual but such careers do exist) and I certainly will not be backing up visions of comely maidens. You obviously don't know much about what those with careers involving Irish actually do.

Enlighten me so, what career do you intend to pursue that genuinely requires Irish? The only ones I can think of are those of an Irish teacher or Academics.

simu · 18-03-2005 03:49PM

Sleepy wrote:

Where did I say I want to deny anyone their right to learn Irish? There's a massive difference between believing that Irish is a waste of resources and that it's compulsory nature in the Irish education system a farce than believing people should be prevented from learning it.

Most people, given a choice, wouldn't bother to learn anything. By having it on the curricula, people get a taste of it. Unfortunately, this taste become bitter for some due to bad teaching but this could be remedied by changing teaching methods etc. A lot of things are compulsary in school - I don't see what's so traumatic about that.

I can think of far more serious problems to be dealt with and if I'm entirely honest, I don't regard the death of obsolete languages as a problem. If the human race doesn't blow itself up in the next millenium, I believe we'll all eventually speak the one language.

There are always more serious problems but that doesn't mean you ignore the smaller ones. Yes, possibly the human race will end up speaking one language but I think this would be a shameful loss of the world's linguistic heritage and that we should try not to let it happen but instead find a way to preserve different languages whilst having a lingua franca or linguae francae to allow communication between different groups.

And what about those people who don't? Is their voice not important? Again, I don't call for Irish to be banned, just for the current wasting of money on it to be stopped, the discrimination against non-Irish speakers to end and the removal of it's compulsory status.

Those who oppse Irish seem to be motivated by some irrational hatred/fear of backwardness than anything else. Learning a language does not harm the brain! As for discrimination against Irish-speakers, what this usually means is that people have to pass Irish tests to access certain jobs. I agree that this can be farcical as the capacity to pass these Irish tests often does equate with being able to provide a service through Irish so that there is a certain tokenism about them. However, I don't think it's fair to call this discrimination because anybody can go find an irish grammar book and cram enough Irish to pass such tests if they really want to.

Enlighten me so, what career do you intend to pursue that genuinely requires Irish? The only ones I can think of are those of an Irish teacher or Academics.

Moi, academics. There are other jobs that require Irish though - anyone providing services to Gaeltacht areas or Irish speakers or involved with Irish media and so on. You'll probably say that all this could be done through English and while this is true, Irish speakers would rather have it done in their own language.

Sleepy · 18-03-2005 05:06PM

simu wrote:

Most people, given a choice, wouldn't bother to learn anything. By having it on the curricula, people get a taste of it. Unfortunately, this taste become bitter for some due to bad teaching but this could be remedied by changing teaching methods etc. A lot of things are compulsary in school - I don't see what's so traumatic about that.

No, actually, only two things are compulsory in second level education aside from Irish: English and Maths, the two essential parts of any education. Irish is neither essential, nor particularly useful.

There are always more serious problems but that doesn't mean you ignore the smaller ones. Yes, possibly the human race will end up speaking one language but I think this would be a shameful loss of the world's linguistic heritage and that we should try not to let it happen but instead find a way to preserve different languages whilst having a lingua franca or linguae francae to allow communication between different groups.

Finite resources dictate that the serious problems should be the first to be tackled.

Those who oppse Irish seem to be motivated by some irrational hatred/fear of backwardness than anything else. Learning a language does not harm the brain!

Again, I refer you to my post regarding opportunity cost. I'm opposed to Irish being a mandatory subject because the opportunity costs of having it on the curriculum as a mandatory subject are simply too high.

As for discrimination against Irish-speakers, what this usually means is that people have to pass Irish tests to access certain jobs. I agree that this can be farcical as the capacity to pass these Irish tests often does equate with being able to provide a service through Irish so that there is a certain tokenism about them. However, I don't think it's fair to call this discrimination because anybody can go find an irish grammar book and cram enough Irish to pass such tests if they really want to.

That's about as sensible as arguing that anyone can become a doctor if they read up on a biology book. I also refer to the inherrant discrimination in awarding extra points to Irish speakers in the CAO system.

Moi, academics. There are other jobs that require Irish though - anyone providing services to Gaeltacht areas or Irish speakers or involved with Irish media and so on. You'll probably say that all this could be done through English and while this is true, Irish speakers would rather have it done in their own language.

The Irish-language media is one of the greatest black-holes of public money in this country. I, and most people I know, only watch TG4 when they show English language movies or occasionaly a GAA match because it's not televised in English. Any viewership statistics I've ever seen on this, support my argument (I've spent the last 20 minutes googling but couldn't find any recent figures). TG4 is frankly, a waste of money. If it was entirely self-funding I'd have no problem with it but the facts are that the station itself, and the majority of it's programming are in some way funded by the state.

I've yet to see any proper argument as to why Irish is considered valuable enough to make it's teaching mandatory.

simu · 18-03-2005 05:21PM

Sleepy wrote:

No, actually, only two things are compulsory in second level education aside from Irish: English and Maths, the two essential parts of any education. Irish is neither essential, nor particularly useful.

Just about everything is compulsary in primary school. Up to JC level, many subjects are compulsary from the student's point of view. Actually, I'm not sure Irish is compulsary at LC level. Afaik you could drop it if you wanted to but this would make getting into NUI colleges difficult.

Finite resources dictate that the serious problems should be the first to be tackled.

Yes, but you don't just ignore all other problems.

That's about as sensible as arguing that anyone can become a doctor if they read up on a biology book. I also refer to the inherrant discrimination in awarding extra points to Irish speakers in the CAO system.

No but a person could pass a test on basic biology if they crammed a biology book. As I said, these Irish tests required for jobs only demand enough Irish to pass the test - not enough to be fluent in the language. Plus, trust me, doing LC subjects through Irish is more work - textbooks aren't always available and you have to look up terminology etc yourself.

The Irish-language media is one of the greatest black-holes of public money in this country. I, and most people I know, only watch TG4 when they show English language movies or occasionaly a GAA match because it's not televised in English. Any viewership statistics I've ever seen on this, support my argument (I've spent the last 20 minutes googling but couldn't find any recent figures). TG4 is frankly, a waste of money. If it was entirely self-funding I'd have no problem with it but the facts are that the station itself, and the majority of it's programming are in some way funded by the state.

It's set up as an Irish-language service to the public with some English-language stuff to make extra cash. All programmes are sub-titled so English speakers can watch too. Why don't you ever watch programmes on it btw? Do you dislike reading subtitles? Have none of the programmes on it ever interested you? (That would be surprising considering the vairiety of programmes and docus,especially, they've had on over the years). Are you afraid the sounds of Irish will unhinge the balance of your mind?

I've yet to see any proper argument as to why Irish is considered valuable enough to make it's teaching mandatory.

The whole heritage and cultural thing - but I suspect we're going to have to disagree on that once again.

Slutmonkey57b · 18-03-2005 10:25PM

pickarooney wrote:

Why are you comparing the way the student's native language is taught to the way a non-ntive language is taught as opposed to teh way other non-native languages are taught? If the student spoke Irish as fluently
as he/she did English, there wouldn't be a problem learning to dissect and analyse poems and stories, but the run-before-you-can-walk method of writing essays on emigration, unemployment and the role of rural women in 18th Century Ireland, while ignoring such basic elements as how to talk to people is idiotic. (IMHO)

Oh? I thought Irish was our native language, and part of our culture and heritage and... oh, you mean it isn't? According to the government and the Gaelic nazis Irish is our first language, not our second.

Please show me a primary school curriculum that forces 5 year olds to write essays on the role of rural women. (my sister is a primary school teacher, so don't bother I know what they do in class) Irish is taught in schools from the same age and at the same time, and in the same way as English. Every time I point this out to someone who claims "it's all about how the language is taught" everything goes suspiciously quiet until the next ridiculous falsehood is thought up (see above). Your next "point", since the "way it's taught argument" has been demolished, is that we have to teach it differently because it's not our native language (even though Irish supporters claim it is). Well, the child's parents are to blame for that, aren't they? They insisted on teaching the child English. Blame them.

Irish is compulsory at LC level. If I could have dropped it and done another useful subject, believe me I would. Support for people doing the LC through Irish consists of massive subsidies for irish schools and books. Not to mention the Official Language act which will force bilingualism into corners that have no use for it at great expense. So sorry, I don't buy that. The extra marks for Irish-language LC are a plain, ordinary, old-fashioned Irish BRIBE. And if you think that markers of Irish-language LC papers don't give a little "leeway" to answers to keep up the grades to "balance out" how difficult it is to answer papers in Irish (even though it's supposed to be our first language) then you're living in a dream world.

It's set up as an Irish-language service to the public with some English-language stuff to make extra cash. All programmes are sub-titled so English speakers can watch too. Why don't you ever watch programmes on it btw? Do you dislike reading subtitles? Have none of the programmes on it ever interested you? (That would be surprising considering the vairiety of programmes and docus,especially, they've had on over the years). Are you afraid the sounds of Irish will unhinge the balance of your mind?

No, it's set up as an Irish language service to a population that does not want it and does not watch it. Accusing people who don't watch TG4 of being "frightened" is just stupid. People don't watch it becuase they don't care. If you don't like that, tough. It's still true whether you want it to be or not. And in case you haven't noticed, it doesn't make any cash. It's a big fat hole in the ground that the gaelgoirs throw my licence fee into.

deek · 18-03-2005 11:24PM

Ok this may sound stupidly simple but what if all primary students were taught through irish?I went to a gaelscoil for 8 years but then decided to go to an english speaking secondry school.Personally I love Irish but since most of the girls in my classes came from english speaking primaries I completely understand why people hate it so much.Its asssumed that you have a really good level of irish in 1st year whereas most people dont.Its got a huge amount to do with how its taught, loads of primary teachers hate the language and this comes across when they try and teach it.
In the gaeilscoil we got a chance to speak it naturally and see how it could really be used.I never really spent much time learning grammer rules and to this day I still dont understand them ,we learnt by ear.
Only primary schools would need to be fully in Irish as even this is enough to become fluent(Im almost fluent(got 100% in orals) even though half the girls in my year cant string 2 words together). Irish could then be optional in secondry schools, if people STILL chose not to do it this would be a true sign that Irish people have no interest in the language ,no?

abccormac · 18-03-2005 11:45PM

Irish is taught in schools from the same age and at the same time, and in the same way as English

That's wrong on so many levels. You have descended from making an argument to talking utter bollox. Children have learned to speak english when they enter primary school. They are then taught to read and write in the language. With Irish they begin from first principles.

Your next "point", since the "way it's taught argument" has been demolished, is that we have to teach it differently because it's not our native language

You have become horribly confused. I will try to make as simple as I can. Irish is our "native" language in the sense that, historically speaking it was the primary languge of Ireland. English on yhe other hand , is the vast majority of 4 year old primary scool childrens FIRST language. It is the language they learned by listening to their parents. Clear enough for you?

This should explain why it may be a good idea to teach irish in the way foreign languages are taught. By the time kids have reached secondary school, they are usually reasonably proficient in the spoken language. The emphasis then changes to become more oriented towards the written languge, poems, short stories and the like. This seems to many people to be where the problems begin, as verbal skills take a back seat to written skills, which are more important for exams. This, in the opinion of many people on this thread is why so many people finish secondary school with a poor grasp of the spoken language.

embee · 18-03-2005 11:58PM

I have no problem whatsoever in public money being spent on TG4 and children being taught Irish in schools compulsorily. I'd rather see money being spent on our languages renaissance than on white elephants like the Spire. I don't agree for one second that it is an obsolete language either. And, in relation to whether or not it should be taught in schools, I absolutely think it should be compulsory. A child learning any "foreign" language to the one they speak at home (any language, not just Irish) in primary school is going to have an easier time of learning European languages when they go onto secondary school. My own cousins who live in the UK found French, German and Spanish extremely difficult to pick up in secondary school, whereas I personally found that German was only moderately difficult when I began learning it.

OfflerCrocGod · 19-03-2005 12:15AM

abccormac wrote:

People from different parts of italy can hardly understand eachother, if you learned standard italian in school would you think it was a "fake" language?

I can understand my cousins from the south and the ones from up north without any problem. There are dialects but Italian is spoken everywhere and everyone understands it.

Ahh, the old reliable debate, "Forcing the Irish language on an unwilling populace: right or wrong?" As far as I'm concerned it's cruel and unusual punishment and should be stopped at once. Just let it die, this necrophilia for the Irish language is rather pathetic.

Swaneck · 19-03-2005 12:25AM

Another good reason to get rid of the language is with regard to weaker students in school

What is the point for a weaker student to spend 1300 hours of their education learning a language they will not use when they leave school.

Surely if a student is below average they would be best to concentrate on subjects that will stand to them in the real world.

Some students leave school without the three R's reading, writing and sums. In these students cases surely their time will be better spent learning the basics that they will need every day of their lives rather then learning Irish that will give them what exactly?

OfflerCrocGod · 19-03-2005 12:25AM

abccormac wrote:

That's wrong on so many levels. You have descended from making an argument to talking utter bollox. Children have learned to speak english when they enter primary school. They are then taught to read and write in the language. With Irish they begin from first principles.

I think you'll find that that is the point that was being made.... People don't speak Irish so stop pretending that they do.

abccormac wrote:

You have become horribly confused. I will try to make as simple as I can. Irish is our "native" language in the sense that, historically speaking it was the primary languge of Ireland. English on yhe other hand , is the vast majority of 4 year old primary scool childrens FIRST language. It is the language they learned by listening to their parents. Clear enough for you?

Clear but wrong. Native Language dictionary definition.

the language that a person acquires in earliest childhood; also, the primary language of a community; also called primary language, mother tongue

Swaneck · 19-03-2005 12:42AM

embee wrote:

I have no problem whatsoever in public money being spent on TG4 and children being taught Irish in schools compulsorily. I'd rather see money being spent on our languages renaissance than on white elephants like the Spire.

Well you can argue that the Spire serves has a point in that if you are a toursit it helps you navigate your way around the city while Irish only serves to get studends lost in the education system.

embee wrote:

I don't agree for one second that it is an obsolete language either.

- This could end up like the dead parrot sketch in Monty Python. By any objective measure its deader then mutton.

embee wrote:

And, in relation to whether or not it should be taught in schools, I absolutely think it should be compulsory.

But why?

embee wrote:

A child learning any "foreign" language to the one they speak at home (any language, not just Irish) in primary school is going to have an easier time of learning European languages when they go onto secondary school. My own cousins who live in the UK found French, German and Spanish extremely difficult to pick up in secondary school, whereas I personally found that German was only moderately difficult when I began learning it.

Your point here being?

Irish - Time to go?

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