Irish - Time to go?

Zulu · 16-03-2005 01:01PM

Wibbs wrote:

I (and others I know) have experienced that on numerous occasions... ...It's when they find out you can't speak Irish and they intersperse the conversation with Irish as if you were the foreigner that's the problem.To be fair I found this tendency more in recent converts to the whole "Irish is our heritage" types. The fluent from birth people are less likely to do it.

Who does this? Where? Who are these people? I just don't believe this - sorry, but I spent a lot of time in Gealtachts; spent some time in Irish societies in UCG, and I've never experienced this. It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some rude people, and now have the brush and tar out.

ARGINITE · 16-03-2005 01:01PM

Sleepy wrote:

Do you believe it should be forced on every student in the country at the expense of their overall education though Zulu?

yes I think it should.
But it should be changed to more about speaking and less about learning off.

I only learned to like the lanuage after leaving secondry school.

Linoge · 16-03-2005 01:08PM

Hugh Hefner wrote:

Aww man, I'm really passionate about this subject. That is, the subject of getting Irish made optional not the actual subject of Irish. I've been doing Irish since 1st class like most Irish people and for some reason it's the only subject I can't get a hold of. It's the only one I'm doing Ordinary Level in for my JC in June. I have a good chance of getting 8 As in my JC but I'll be happy if I don't fail Ordinary Level Irish. It's not because it's a language either. Languages may not be my strongest suit but I'm a 78% - 90% student in English, French and Greek (of the ancient variety). Irish just doesn't click with me and is so illogical (for me anyway). Maybe it's becasue I got bored and annoyed with it so long ago. 1st class I think it was.

You should do ordinary English as well. Most of us learned how to use paragraphs in primary school.

Goodshape · 16-03-2005 01:31PM

I never learnt it myself for a lot of the reasons people are outlining here. Namely I felt it was an obsolete language which doesn't aid me in anyway outside Irish class / examinations.

Now that I'm living abroad I regret that and definitely plan on learning at least a basic level of Irish at some point. I think with a successful push Irish could be reinstated as a prominent language in Ireland and that really wouldn't be a bad thing. Regardless of the cultural implications (which would be good) there's a lot to be said for multi-lingual societies.

Non (native-)English speaking Europeans tend to regard English as a great communication tool when outside their own country or talking to foreigners from almost anywhere. However, knowing only English leaves one at a definite disadvantage, IMO, regardless of how 'useful' that other language is.

As an aside, I have two younger sisters who both went to Irish language schools for the first few years of their education. Coming from a household whose general level of Irish doesn't include the ability of stringing a sentence together, they were reasonably fluent at the end of it and retain a rather high level of Irish to this day.

Wibbs · 16-03-2005 01:51PM

Zulu wrote:

Who does this? Where? Who are these people? I just don't believe this - sorry, but I spent a lot of time in Gealtachts; spent some time in Irish societies in UCG, and I've never experienced this. It sounds to me like you've had a bad experience with some rude people, and now have the brush and tar out.

As you've pointed out you spent time in the gaeltacht and Irish societies so in those surroundings and as an Irish speaker yourself you may be less likely to notice.

I've never experienced it in gaeltacht areas. As I said the "native" speakers don't do it. But I honestly have noticed it on way more than one occasion from various people. Maybe you're right and I've just met rude gits and/or the more militant Irish speakers. Although, there does seem to be a lot of them about if that informal straw pole among my friends is anything to go by.

Regarding the brush and tar, Zulu. I've recently upgraded to a spray gun. Thin down the tar a bit and away you go. It has the advantage of lot less effort and covers more of the target too. The feather adaptor is in the post....

magpie · 16-03-2005 02:07PM

I think with a successful push Irish could be reinstated as a prominent language in Ireland and that really wouldn't be a bad thing.

Yes, but if you have to reinstate it then its not really a national language is it? Certainly not in the way you're talking about French, Dutch, German etc.

Cianos · 16-03-2005 02:25PM

Nearly everyone has difficulty with Irish. No-one in school liked the class, it was boring, pointless, waste of time etc etc. But the fact is that it is OUR language. And for us to wash it out of the Irish mentallity is just another way that our world is becoming too globalised, materialistic, westernised etc. All other Europeans are very proud of their culture, a big part of which is obviously their language. Personally I think it is slightly embarrasing when in another country people ask me to speak some Irish words and I can barely mutter a sentence.

I think most of the problem comes down to the way it is taught in school. It is an absolutely horrible method of teaching. Answering questions about poems and the rest of it. How many Irish words or conversations were had in an Irish class? It seem so obvious, how the feck did they get it so wrong when designing the curriculum? If you want to learn a language, you speak it and you listen to it. Simple. Answer questions about an obscure poem? Wtf?

I think it would be great to get a petition together about the terrible way the language is being taught. If everyone could speak it (in the same way German/French/Spanish etc people are deadly at English), then it wouldnt seem like such a waste of time and money. We would be proud of it rather than embarrased by it.

magpie · 16-03-2005 02:33PM

But the fact is that it is OUR language

Is it really? How can a language that has been out of everyday use for hundreds of years be classified as our language? English is our language. What language are we using now? What language do you use every day?

For those of us from Dublin it would be closer to say that 9th Century Norse is our language, as over the last 2000 years it was certainly more commonly used than Irish. Irish only clung on in remote areas (the gaeltachts) and was practically dead by 1900, only to be reinvented by effete Anglo-Irish poets!

I'm sure its academically interesting, its probably good for those who wish to feel part of something cultural etc, but be under no delusions. Irish is not our national language and what is taught in schools today is as artificial as Esperanto.

Mossy Monk · 16-03-2005 02:48PM

keep it. all it needs is to be taught differetntly instead of it seeming like its being forced on people

Goodshape · 16-03-2005 03:03PM

magpie wrote:

Yes, but if you have to reinstate it then its not really a national language is it? Certainly not in the way you're talking about French, Dutch, German etc.

A few countries (Czech Republic is one of them - can't find a link atm) have had their language 'reinstated' to great success. And you'd be hard pressed to find a more difficult language than Czech in Europe.

Zulu · 16-03-2005 03:05PM

magpie wrote:

Is it really?

No it's not! Great point! It's the Mongolians language :rolleyes:

How can a language that has been out of everyday use for hundreds of years be classified as our language?

It's not a dead language. (ie: it's still in everyday use)

English is our language. What language are we using now?

Because you speak it dosen't make it your language. Our language is... oh I can't be bothered. You get 1/10 for your argument.

For those of us from Dublin it would be closer to say that 9th Century Norse is our language, as over the last 2000 years it was certainly more commonly used than Irish.

Rubbish. I'm from Dublin and I don't know a word of Norse. In fact, I'd be amazed if you could string a sentance of Norse together. (Don't bother)

Irish only clung on in remote areas (the gaeltachts) and was practically dead by 1900, only to be reinvented by effete Anglo-Irish poets!

Proof to back up that incrediable point, please.

I'm sure its academically interesting, its probably good for those who wish to feel part of something cultural etc, but be under no delusions. Irish is not our national language and what is taught in schools today is as artificial as Esperanto.

Delusional, I like that. Thats a good word.

Tar.Aldarion · 16-03-2005 03:11PM

nearly everybody has difficulty with irish is not a reason to stop it.if you go to an irish speaking school then nobody has any difficulty.my irish speaking friends just laughed out loud in the LC aural,its so simple.for me it was just gibberish.
it's just the way you are taught.the syllabus is bad as is the teaching method.the course is proven stupid when i,with my no knowledge of irish,can beat fluent speakers of the language in JC and LC.
if you hear irish when your young you learn it real fast and because most tv and stuff is english you learn both languages with no problem.
its a sad fact that peoples irish is better in primary school than when they finish the LC.my class spoke fairly good irish in primary school cos the teachers always spoke it.none of us can speak it now because of secondary.... anyways keep it and change the system so ppl like me would actually fail the exam

Wibbs · 16-03-2005 03:12PM

To clarify; I don't have anything against Irish as a language. If you can speak it, fair play. Knowledge is it's own reward and all that.

What I do take issue with is the opinion held in some circles that I and others like me are in some way lesser Irish men and women for not speaking it.

Hiberno-English is the lingua franca of today's Ireland. Any considerations for Irish should reflect that. It should stand or fall on it's own without too much of the life support of public funding.

BTW I do think that entities like TG4 will help it become less entrenched in the past and might encourage more general usage. For a start it may serve to homogenise the language by exposing different dialects from around the country to each other. Hopefully giving rise to a more standardised form of the language countrywide. That might help it stay fresh and alive.

Cianos · 16-03-2005 03:13PM

magpie wrote:

I'm sure its academically interesting, its probably good for those who wish to feel part of something cultural etc, but be under no delusions. Irish is not our national language and what is taught in schools today is as artificial as Esperanto.

There is definately enough naturally Irish speaking people in this country to show that it is not just for those who would like to feel cultured. Dublin only holds 1/4 of the population remember. And while it is easy to go for months without hearing it being spoken in Dublin, Im sure most other places you would hear it far far more often. I find it puzzling why you are so eager to reject it from Irish identity.

Zulu · 16-03-2005 03:37PM

Wibbs wrote:

What I do take issue with is the opinion held in some circles that I and others like me are in some way lesser Irish men and women for not speaking it.

These circle tend to be VERY small, and I would dismiss them as quickly say as the people that believe that soccer is a integral part of being male.
You are talking about such a tiny amount of people I really wish you would drop this point. Don't get me wrong: I try to reject all forms of snobbery.

magpie · 16-03-2005 04:05PM

Zulu, I can't be arsed responding to each of your indivudal points, but this seems to cover it. And its from Gaeltalk which I suspect is a pro-language site.

Note however the overtly anti-english sentiment (as identified earlier) with the 'devastating effects of english colonialism taking their toll on the native tongue' not 'devastating effects of over-subdivision of land and rudimentary farming techniques combined with over-reliance on a single crop resulting in a famine which forced most of the rural, Irish-speaking population to move to urban, English speaking areas in Ireland and abroad'. But in my experience pro-Irish Language organisations tend to be a bit on the Chucky side. For instance members of the Gaeilge/Trad Music fora on Boards are always the first on the politics board defending Sinn Fein.

Main points though:

1) Irish almost dead by 1900
2) Early 20th Cultural revival

Irish was the language of the vast majority of the population until the early 19th century when the devastating effects of English colonialism started taking their toll on the native tongue. Censuses taken in Ireland between 1851 and 1961 show the steady decline in the use of Irish with the greatest concentrations of speakers located in small pockets along the west coast of the country.

The development of Ireland as a free country during the early 20th century brought with it a cultural revival which was, up to a degree, fuelled by a sense of national pride and nationalism. The Irish language has made major gains in the 20th century due largely to a combination of public, private and government efforts.

The language is currently going through a major renaissance and more people are able to speak and write Irish today than have been able to for over 150 years. More books, newspapers and magazines have been published in Irish in the past century than in the entire history of the language. Although the decline of the Gaeltachts remains a great concern, it has been slowed down considerably. The great increase in learning Irish by children as well as adults in non-Gaeltacht areas and abroad, is also very encouraging.

With regard to Modern Irish being makey-uppy:

Pearse is known best for his part in planning and executing the Easter Rising of 1916. However, he also played an important role in the advancement of Irish literature. In the late 19th century The Gaelic Revival took place in Ireland. This was a literary movement that focused on the "rich vocabulary and idiomatic expressions in the Irish language and folklore" (BOL). However, the members of this movement were challenged by the diverse dialects of the language. Moreover, there were very few modern works in the genre at the time. Most of the literature being published in Irish was the myths and legends of historical Ireland. Nothing produced early in the revival could compete internationally. It was not until the middle of the 20th century that the language was standardized.

http://www.usna.edu/EnglishDept/ilv/pearse.htm

For standardised read, 'made up'. The Irish that is taught in schools was never spoken, as it is a bastardisation thought up by Pearse and co and not completed until about 1950, almost a hundred years after it was last used in any widespread manner.

Goodshape · 16-03-2005 04:13PM

magpie wrote:

For standardised read, 'made up'.

I'd prefer to read it as it was written, tbh. Not the same thing at all.

magpie · 16-03-2005 04:30PM

Diverse dialects = language actually spoken

Standardised language = political expedient

Zulu · 16-03-2005 04:32PM

I foresee this as being painful.

magpie wrote:

Main points though: 1) Irish almost dead by 1900

Pointing out the blatant decline in Irish is NOT a proof that

Irish only clung on in remote areas (the gaeltachts) and was practically dead by 1900, only to be reinvented by effete Anglo-Irish poets!

Your "evidence" only highlights one cause of the decline in the language, I can give you some more if you like, but they won't prove your point.

2) Early 20th Cultural revival

No one is denying there was a cultural revival in the early 20th century.

With regard to Modern Irish being makey-uppy:
http://www.usna.edu/EnglishDept/ilv/pearse.htm
For standardised read, 'made up'. The Irish that is taught in schools was never spoken, as it is a bastardisation thought up by Pearse and co and not completed until about 1950, almost a hundred years after it was last used in any widespread manner.

I suggest you read standardisation as standardisation. With the modern educational system, many subjects have been standardised. I shouldn't bother explaining this to you, as it displays your ignorance to this subject, but here goes: The Irish language is spoken slightly different in different regions. "Conas atoi?" and "Conas a ta tu?" have the same meaning for example. It's hardly viable to have 4 different Irish languages taught in schools to accommodate this, so, a standard was created. This isn't a "made up" language.

To say it was never spoken is just a bare faced lie. It was spoken. The standardisation merely incorporates the regional differences.

magpie · 16-03-2005 04:46PM

With the modern educational system, many subjects have been standardised

So is it a living language or a 'educational subject'? You seemed previously to be claiming the former, but I agree with you wholeheartedly that when you are teaching a 'subject' it must be standardised.

I shouldn't bother explaining this to you, as it displays your ignorance to this subject, but here goes: The Irish language is spoken slightly different in different regions. "Conas atoi?" and "Conas a ta tu?" have the same meaning for example. It's hardly viable to have 4 different Irish languages taught in schools to accommodate this, so, a standard was created. This isn't a "made up" language.

Thanks, I knew that. My point would be that if you are homogenising it for the purposes of examinations that it ceases to be a living language in any real sense. The very fact that it needed standardisation in 1950 (several hundred years after any other modern european language) is some indication of just how defunct Irish actually was.

To say it was never spoken is just a bare faced lie. It was spoken. The standardisation merely incorporates the regional differences.

You say potato. My point would be that Irish in the form it is taught in schools and spoken on RTE etc is not Irish in the sense that it existed as a living language. Heilacopteir, Aerphoirt, Teilafon etc. Please. Of course they had to make up words for this stuff as the vocabulary of the language was pretty minuscule as it was only ever used by an uneducated agrarian population for day-to-day conversation and was never a language for the creation of great literature or the expression of great ideas. "Conas a ta tu?" indeed. Its sad that thanks to Dev and his minions we place more national stock on a dead peasant vernacular than on the considerable achievements of Irish men and women in Science, Art, Medicine and Literature (in the English language of course). Then again he'd prefer us barefoot dancing at the crossroads than winning Nobel prizes and coming under the malignant influences of perfidious albion.

Wibbs · 16-03-2005 04:51PM

Originally posted by Zulu
These circle tend to be VERY small, and I would dismiss them as quickly say as the people that believe that soccer is a integral part of being male.
You are talking about such a tiny amount of people I really wish you would drop this point. Don't get me wrong: I try to reject all forms of snobbery.

Ok Zulu, fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. It's all down to our different experiences with regard to this matter.

To give you an idea how different these can be; in all my years of going to gaeltocht areas, I've only once or twice heard Irish being spoken. I kid you not. Now I know it's spoken on a daily basis. I must have been wearing a t-shirt with the words "can't understand the cupla focal kindly translate" printed on it. I personally have overheard more Irish conversations in Dublin. Weird.

Serious question here. if I as a non Irish speaker decided to learn it now, no matter how long I studied it I would never be completely fluent. It would be much the same if I lived in France for 20yrs. While I would become fluent in French, the locals would still pick up on the fact that I wasn't French. So if you speak Irish from birth fine. If like me you don't would I not always sound like a "foreigner"(for want of a better word), if you know what I mean. Any opinions on this out there?

Interesting history of the Irish language from an unusual source. I for one didn't know that Elizabeth 1 ordered the production of the bible in Irish
http://wiccaweb.com/irishgaelic.php

Hugh Hefner · 16-03-2005 04:57PM

Wibbs wrote:

I for one didn't know that Elizabeth 1 ordered the production of the bible in Irish
http://wiccaweb.com/irishgaelic.php

Twas probably in a bid to deconstruct alot of the restrictions on Catholicism, being Catholic herself.

Wibbs · 16-03-2005 05:06PM

Huh? Henry the VIII's daughter a catholic? Mary queen of Scots yes. Lizzie no. She would have hardly asked for the bible to be translated into the vernacular if she was a catholic. Now would she. Read the article in the link.

Slight swerve off topic there, but I couldn't let that go.

Hugh Hefner · 16-03-2005 05:17PM

No I'm pretty sure she was. And then her brother... eh.... hold on..... wait.... for... it..... em...... errrr.... I'm possibly getting my history mixed up. It just feels so right in my mind that she was Catholic despite her father's dealings.

pickarooney · 16-03-2005 06:12PM

magpie wrote:

Diverse dialects = language actually spoken

Standardised language = political expedient

Beh, the exact same thing happened with Dutch in the 19th century and Norwegian in the 20th and they're definitely still languages.

pickarooney · 16-03-2005 06:17PM

magpie wrote:

Heilacopteir, Aerphoirt, Teilafon etc. Please.

Hélicoptère, aéroport, téléphone. Oh look, French is a pretend language too.
Crazier yet, these words are all Greek/Latin so that makes English a fictitious tongue too.

Other than that, a lot of good points in your earlier posts.

abccormac · 16-03-2005 08:20PM

homogenising it for the purposes of examinations

This is done with ALL languages. If you did french or german or any other language in school, you learned a "homogenised" version of it, not a local version. People from different parts of italy can hardly understand eachother, if you learned standard italian in school would you think it was a "fake" language? People who learn english as a second language tend to learn either "BBC" english or "american" english. Are these fake languages too?
You have to standardise a language to teach it.

never a language for the creation of great literature or the expression of great ideas

Have you ever read the Tain? I believe it was written in irish. The english shakespeare wrote was very different from the english we speak, do you think english is a made up language? Living languages evolve, dead ones don't.

uneducated agrarian population

The land of saints and scholars! sound familiar at all?

fireblade1 · 16-03-2005 08:45PM

i think it should be kept on in schools just taught differently
as for the dead language thing i learned german in school and it was "hoch" german as in standard vocab so everyone (german and otherwise) could understand it and the diffferent regions have their own dialects and variations

kaimera · 16-03-2005 09:00PM

I used to be solid at Irish till secondary and it all went down hill from there. Got a honour in the LC in higher Irish tho, i could read it pretty good but wouldnt understand much of it.

in sayin that tho, I'd love for my kids to learn it [future kids mind you!]. Imo in years to come speaking irish will be a unique trait. Pity tho.

Lorcan26 · 16-03-2005 09:32PM

mary, henry's daughter, was catholic. elizabeth, no, she hated them. one of the reasons she wasnt particuarly keen on ireland at the time.
i remember one time someone said to me that half the people in the gaeltacht dont even speak the language. thats bo**x, i was in conamara last summer, and when we were on the beach this man came up to us and started blabbering on as gaelige. even in the village, the shopkeepers eetc spoke in irish when we first went in.

Irish - Time to go?

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