Shoddy bus timetables.. In Irish!

mackerski · 24-02-2005 06:34PM

John R wrote:

Incorrect, there has been integrated ticketing between rail and bus for as long as I can remember, weekly and monthly tickets, day tickets, family tickets and dart feeder tickets.

You'll surely accept that this token level of integration does nothing to encourage new users to use public transport, particularly those whose use is infrequent.

Dermot

murphaph · 24-02-2005 07:23PM

All this talk about smart cards. Will I be able to leave my house in Blanch, get on the bus and buy a paper ticket to say, Tallaght, using BUS-->SUBURBAN RAIL-->LUAS? I've absolutely nothing against regular PT users getting smart cards but that's not integrated ticketing, it's cashless payment. Somebody please reassure me that joe tourist won't need to get a smart card when s/he arrives at the airport in order to make a journey with more than 1 change.

Bogger77 · 24-02-2005 08:08PM

enterprise wrote:

Couldn't agree more!

In was in Blanch S.C. a few weeks ago and required to get a bus to Coolmine station. I knew the 239 plus another route passed the station but wasn't sure which one. Consulted my DB timetable book and couldn't figure any of it out as the routing was in Irish and the point to point timing didn't help matters either.

In the end I rang a friend who told me it was the 237, as none of them suited me I got a 39 to the top of Coolmine ave and walked down to the station.

So DB - please change your timetables back to English and very few of us can speak Irish!

Why blame Dub Bus if you can't understand a timetable book, while there's problems with the bus stop information, the book isn't difficult to read.

As for your lack of ability to understand irish, sorry, but that's an issue you'll have to deal with.

Victor · 24-02-2005 08:23PM

murphaph wrote:

All this talk about smart cards. Will I be able to leave my house in Blanch, get on the bus and buy a paper ticket to say, Tallaght, using BUS-->SUBURBAN RAIL-->LUAS? I've absolutely nothing against regular PT users getting smart cards but that's not integrated ticketing, it's cashless payment. Somebody please reassure me that joe tourist won't need to get a smart card when s/he arrives at the airport in order to make a journey with more than 1 change.

Why not? When I arrived in New York I got the courtesy bus to the subway station, bought a one-week ticket (which I was able to top up on the eight day for one extra day) and made two changes. The only real difference to an existing DART / bus ticket (which admittedly you can only have 2 out of 3 of DART / bus / Luas) was the card was plastic and rechargeable.

John R · 24-02-2005 08:29PM

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Are you certain about this? As far as I know, the tender for the integrated ticketing system hasn't been concluded. According to a news report, three of the five tenderers have withdrawn because they believed the money was not available. This means that the whole process is in severe trouble. I hope they can find a way to recover the situation, but it's hard to see how the RPA can conclude the tender in these circumstances.

Half arsed journalism probably, the more I read about topics I have accurate information about the more obvious it is that wildly inaccurate news reports are commonplace.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Integrating this system is a major challenge, not least because there will be at least three fareboxes involved at the beginning and potentially 8 or more later on. TfL in London spent over two years in testing and season-ticket mode before it introduced a stored-value card, and it only has one farebox.

Testing and shakedown is really important for this type of setup because if a stored-value system goes wrong, it's a very serious issue It would mean an immediate loss of revenue, with no prospect of recovery.

Well hopefully the experience and debugging that took place in earlier installations will allow a quicker rollout here, once the hardware is in place.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Still, if you have different information, I'd be interested to hear.

Once the hardware had been purchased there was never any way they could pull out of the implementation. Luas is already being installed and Dublin Bus purchased a new ticketing system with smart card readers, wireless data link and GPS for their entire fleet early last year, it is being trialled right now as enterprise previously stated.

John R · 24-02-2005 08:44PM

murphaph wrote:

All this talk about smart cards. Will I be able to leave my house in Blanch, get on the bus and buy a paper ticket to say, Tallaght, using BUS-->SUBURBAN RAIL-->LUAS? I've absolutely nothing against regular PT users getting smart cards but that's not integrated ticketing, it's cashless payment. Somebody please reassure me that joe tourist won't need to get a smart card when s/he arrives at the airport in order to make a journey with more than 1 change.

No. I am pretty sure that there will not be an expansion in the on-bus purchase options.
It might be terribly handy for the occasional user to get on the bus and have a two minute conversation with the driver about his various ticketing options but it is not convenient for all the other passengers whose journey is increased because of it.
One of the big advantages of cashless pre-payment to bus services is the decrease in stop dwell times.
If I had my way once the system is fully implemented all bus services would have a single flat fare priced high enough to discourage cash payment.

There are plenty of ways to accomodate tourists, many already take advantage of the bus/rail tickets available at the airport from the CIE counter or ticket machines. There is no reason they cannot be sold smartcards with daily/weekend/weekly passes for whatever modes they like pre-installed.

murphaph · 24-02-2005 09:21PM

John R wrote:

No. I am pretty sure that there will not be an expansion in the on-bus purchase options.
It might be terribly handy for the occasional user to get on the bus and have a two minute conversation with the driver about his various ticketing options but it is not convenient for all the other passengers whose journey is increased because of it.
One of the big advantages of cashless pre-payment to bus services is the decrease in stop dwell times.
If I had my way once the system is fully implemented all bus services would have a single flat fare priced high enough to discourage cash payment.

There are plenty of ways to accomodate tourists, many already take advantage of the bus/rail tickets available at the airport from the CIE counter or ticket machines. There is no reason they cannot be sold smartcards with daily/weekend/weekly passes for whatever modes they like pre-installed.

You've assumed the driver would be required to sell me the ticket. In Germany there are ticket machines located on board buses (complete with zone maps and routes) and drivers do not accept cash.

So what I'm getting here is that any integrated journey will require a smart card? No integrated paper tickets for occasional users?

John R · 24-02-2005 09:35PM

Metrobest wrote:

Aren't you a bus driver? Then that might go some way towards explaining your irrational defence of CIE.

I have answered that question TO YOU more than once before and quite frankly my occupation is none of your business.

A question of impartiality from you is simply laughable, at least three quarters of your posts on boards have been one-sided drivel to push your *metro best* angle.

Metrobest wrote:

Please don't insult our intelligence by saying there is "intergrated ticketing". That's a falsity.

It may not be what you want out of integration but it IS integrated. 1 ticket that allows unlimited use of most/all services of three operators is integration.
In fact I can think of one tourist ticket that allows unlimited use of six operators services on this island.

I really don't think it's fair on others for you to co-opt their brainpower without invitation.
As for your intelligence, show some and then I might be persuaded to insult it.

John R · 24-02-2005 09:48PM

murphaph wrote:

You've assumed the driver would be required to sell me the ticket. In Germany there are ticket machines located on board buses (complete with zone maps and routes) and drivers do not accept cash.

I assume that is based on a trust with occasional checking system where for most journeys fare payment is not verified?

murphaph wrote:

So what I'm getting here is that any integrated journey will require a smart card? No integrated paper tickets for occasional users?

The current ranges of paper tickets, on board and pre bought will be available for a while yet.
I don't see the big problem with occasional users buying a card, they will be widely available at newsagents as well as rail and tram stops.

If you say on board machines work in Germany then fine but I cannot imagine how such a system can allow smooth operation and short dwell times on busy city bus routes.

Pre-paying for phone credit is easy and simple and millions of Irish have no problem with it, this travel card system should be just as easy.

Victor · 24-02-2005 09:52PM

Behave!

antoinolachtnai · 24-02-2005 10:22PM

spacetweek wrote:

Smart cards allow you to pay for all modes of transport with the same card. In what way is this not integrated ticketing?

Sorry, didn't explain myself well enough.

The smart card system that is being put onto the Luas and the various other services while we speak is free-standing. However, it is envisioned that it will be integrated with other services.

However, this has not been done yet. It is not a trivial thing to do. It is very complex to implement.

The work on implementing it hasn't even begun. According to information in the media, the tendering process is in serious trouble.

I don't know why anyone believes that the system will be in place by the end of next March. We were told in late 2004 that it would be finished by end 2005. The date keeps receding. I have worked a few big IT projects in my time, and just going on the information that is out in the public domain, I can't see how this one can possibly be delivered on the timescale people are talking about.

There is also the issue about having an integrated fare, as distinct from an integrated ticket, so you can get a bit of a discount if you use a few different modes or buses during a trip. This was actually the original purpose of integrated ticketing. Doing this will require some sort of business arrangement between all the operators, which they will all have to subscribe to. Again, this could take a while to negotiate.

KC61 · 24-02-2005 10:33PM

Just to try and explain what has happened here:

Late last year Dublin Bus published a new timetable book - not new timetables, just a new book. They make timetable changes on an ad hoc basis, but re-issue the book containing the timetables on an annual basis.

Following many requests, they decided to re-format the presentation of the timetables in that book and the free route leaflets available in 59 Upper O'Connell Street.

The new presentation sees a long awaited introduction of the display of approximate intermediate points along each route to the left of the timetables, while retaining the full stage point listing at the base of each timetable.

Some bright spark in the timetabling department then decided to remove the English route list at the top of the page as it was already included twice on the page elsewhere - the stage points and to a lesser extent the intermediate timing points.

However, what this person failed to cop was that these timetables also form the basis of those placed on timetable carousels at bus stops. Of course the timetables mounted at stops do not include staging points for space reasons, and hence there are now no English route listings on the bus stops! Entirely predictable given DB's track record in this area.

There is no other explanation - it has nothing to do with space / Irish Language activists etc. Pure and simply put it was yet another cock-up by the timetabling department who are quite frankly a loose cannon within Dublin Bus. We know this due to the significant number of errors in the published timetables (e.g. buses that do operate not being listed; others which take route deviations not having those listed; some buses being listed that do not operate!), the errors in local service guides, and the frequent lack of communication between garages and Head Office on timetable changes. On an equal level is the timetable carousel mounted on the inbound stop outside Cuisine de France in Tallaght which has an outbound 65B timetable on it, despite having inbound timetables for other routes! I could go on ad nauseum.

DB has improved in many ways but in the little things, particularly the impartment of information to customers, they have an awful long way to go!

A classic example is the publication of the new timetable book referred to above two weeks before a large number of routes moved to the new Harristown Garage. Did the book mention the new depot? No! Which timetables are included in the book? The ones before the move! Unbelievable!

I hope this clarifies this - And hopefully someone in DB will take note and do something about it!

murphaph · 24-02-2005 11:36PM

@JohnR
Yeah, the systems I've seen are all honour systems. I know what's coming next.....and I agree that fare evasion would be higher here but I look to Connex and their example with Luas. I've used it 6 times and been checked 5 times. I can't remember the last time I was checked on BAC or IE (unmanned stations can assist easy fare evasion).

I agree with antoinleachtnai that we be careful to get integrated fares(ZONES!!) not just integrated tickets (cashless payment but still paying twice for 1 journey if you have to change).

I might sound anti-smart card but I'm not at all. Just reckon they might be blinding people with science, hoping we don't notice that the system still charges us for every mode used as opposed to for every journey made.

John R · 25-02-2005 12:19AM

trainuser wrote:

Just to try and explain what has happened here: ...

Yep, sounds like the most logical chain of events to arrive at timetable carousels with Irish only route listings.

Agree too on the inaccuracies in the timetabling dept, some haven't been fixed properly for decades. It is not as if correct times are unknown, they are all on the drivers rosters.

John R · 25-02-2005 12:53AM

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Sorry, didn't explain myself well enough.

The smart card system that is being put onto the Luas and the various other services while we speak is free-standing. However, it is envisioned that it will be integrated with other services.

However, this has not been done yet. It is not a trivial thing to do. It is very complex to implement.

That AFAIK is only a possible addition, I wouldn't expect much interest from commercial bodies until it is up and running successfully for public transport, if the RPA or whoever proposed these additions are relying on outside income to make the project a success from the start there may well be trouble. It was my understanding that that part was tagged on as an additional benefit rather than an essential element.
Either way the whole thing it too far advanced now not to be completed for public transport and if that is a success the rest will most likely work itself out.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I don't know why anyone believes that the system will be in place by the end of next March. We were told in late 2004 that it would be finished by end 2005. The date keeps receding. I have worked a few big IT projects in my time, and just going on the information that is out in the public domain, I can't see how this one can possibly be delivered on the timescale people are talking about.

I would say the hardware will be completely installed by then and the simpler products like season tickets could be brought out quickly enough but rushing the complex pay-as-you-go products before they are thoroughly tested would be disastrous. When is the next election due?

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There is also the issue about having an integrated fare, as distinct from an integrated ticket, so you can get a bit of a discount if you use a few different modes or buses during a trip. This was actually the original purpose of integrated ticketing. Doing this will require some sort of business arrangement between all the operators, which they will all have to subscribe to. Again, this could take a while to negotiate.

It can be introduced without that but it discounted fares is the only way it is going to appeal to alot of people. Currently Dublin Bus are the only ones who offer reduced price pre-paid tickets outside of the heavy use commuter tickets and seeing as they will have the largest potential drop in revenue (if usage didn't increase but current users switched to discounted smartcard fares) it is a good sign.

It is also the perfect time to simplify the bus fare structure but that is entirely down to the government who control cash fares on bus and rail.

John R · 25-02-2005 01:15AM

murphaph wrote:

@JohnR
Yeah, the systems I've seen are all honour systems. I know what's coming next.....and I agree that fare evasion would be higher here but I look to Connex and their example with Luas. I've used it 6 times and been checked 5 times. I can't remember the last time I was checked on BAC or IE (unmanned stations can assist easy fare evasion).

To provide LUAS level of ticket checking on the bus network would require a very large number of ticket checkers, any less and the large bus travelling scum element will just not pay at all and on the occasion they are caught cause large scale trouble and disruption. These are the same ones who already fare evade as much as possible, next time you are on a route with dodgy residents sit at the front and see how many 80c fares are requested by the tracksuit brigade who then travel as far as they want and on the very rare occasion that they are challenged it is a huge drama to either get them to pay up, leave the bus or wait for the guards to physically remove them.

There would be other advantages to a high level of inspection, a reduction in anti social behaviour, increased sense of security and a reduction in vandalism but I cannot see any hope of funding being made available for that sort of proactive measure.

murphaph wrote:

I agree with antoinleachtnai that we be careful to get integrated fares(ZONES!!) not just integrated tickets (cashless payment but still paying twice for 1 journey if you have to change).

I might sound anti-smart card but I'm not at all. Just reckon they might be blinding people with science, hoping we don't notice that the system still charges us for every mode used as opposed to for every journey made.

As long as the government keeps squeezing the subsidys to public transport operators there will be little scope for change. Currently the farebox provides a much higher percentage of the budgets for DB than any other similar operator in Europe, it is a huge disincentive to offer discounted fares.

antoinolachtnai · 25-02-2005 02:07AM

John R wrote:

That AFAIK is only a possible addition, I wouldn't expect much interest from commercial bodies until it is up and running successfully for public transport, if the RPA or whoever proposed these additions are relying on outside income to make the project a success from the start there may well be trouble. It was my understanding that that part was tagged on as an additional benefit rather than an essential element.

I've messed up explaining again. The story as I understand it is that the systems on each of luas and the various other services are separate, and that they will bring them together as part of the project that is currently being tendered for.

So that's why I say that what you see on Luas is not an example of integrated ticketing. It's just a basic one-operator smartcard system, no big deal. It will take a lot of further technical and business work to get the three or more systems to play together. It's an enormous project really.

Using the smartcard for other purposes is another deal altogether. Something like a general-purpose cashcard would require a further, large investment.

antoinolachtnai · 25-02-2005 02:11AM

murphaph wrote:

I agree with antoinleachtnai that we be careful to get integrated fares(ZONES!!) not just integrated tickets (cashless payment but still paying twice for 1 journey if you have to change).

From reading the original DoT documentation, my understanding is that they wanted to implement this by giving you a discount on the second bus ticket you purchase. This is how it is done in Singapore, as it happens. It works fine if you only have one bus company, of course, but when you have multiple bus companies, the exact terms of the deal are more likely to be open to dispute. (I believe it took a bit of work to get the whole financials sorted out in Singapore, where there are two bus companies.)

The government's plan to franchise routes out to other companies could make the whole thing a lot more complex.

murphaph · 25-02-2005 09:47AM

Oh dear, I can see this going pear shaped. If the ultimate goal of the smart cards is not complete fare integration (either through a zonal structure, my personal favourite or through discounted onward travel) then we are a laughing stock. Simple cashless payment does nothing for the customer (in reality) and everything for the operators. Do we want people out of their cars or what?

KC61 · 25-02-2005 09:56AM

Victor,

Any chance that you could separate the discussion about smart cards and integrated ticketing from this thread please?

It's getting impossible to follow the main subject - poor information for passengers of DB!

Train User

enterprise · 25-02-2005 01:24PM

Bogger77 wrote:

Why blame Dub Bus if you can't understand a timetable book, while there's problems with the bus stop information, the book isn't difficult to read.

As for your lack of ability to understand irish, sorry, but that's an issue you'll have to deal with.

Because all the places listed were in Irish and the English intermediate times listed two places (rte 237 btw) Blanch S.C. - Auburn Ave. 20mins. I haven't got a clue where Auburn Ave is! Therefore what good is it to a tourist? Useless.

My lack of ability to understand Irish has nothing to do with it at all. I wasn't born in this country, therefore never learned the "native" language. Would you say the same thing to a tourist who was blankly looking at the bus timetables - going what the hell is this. I sincerely doubt you would, therefore don't be telling me what to do. :mad: :mad:

enterprise · 25-02-2005 01:35PM

Metrobest wrote:

Please don't insult our intelligence by saying there is "intergrated ticketing". That's a falsity.

Enterprise rummages through his wallet and he finds a LUAS / Dublin Bus Student Monthly ticket. Ah a intergrated ticket. Umm, thats strange, according to Metrobest such a thing doesn't exist in Ireland!

mackerski · 25-02-2005 01:53PM

Bogger77 wrote:

As for your lack of ability to understand irish, sorry, but that's an issue you'll have to deal with.

Charming. Personally, my Irish is well above average, but there are three I can speak better. But I expect that, in my native city, the bus timetables might list placenames at least in my native language, it being the native langauge of the bulk of city residents and the original language of many (most?) of the destinations in question. If additional space can be found to include the destinations' names in another language that is of value to some commuters, then fine.

Some Irish-speakers might consider an English-only timetable a discouresty to them. Any that feel that way would do well to consider how reasonable it is to have Irish-only signposting in the Gaeltacht. I'm not aware of any Irish-speaking monoglots out there. However, there are plenty of folks who speak no Irish. It's their country too.

Dermot

Metrobest · 25-02-2005 04:03PM

enterprise wrote:

Enterprise rummages through his wallet and he finds a LUAS / Dublin Bus Student Monthly ticket. Ah a intergrated ticket. Umm, thats strange, according to Metrobest such a thing doesn't exist in Ireland!

Maybe it has changed in the last few years, but I remember that student ticket being very inflexible. For example, it runs from the beginning of one calender month to the end, so it's no use if you need a monthly pass on Feb25!! As well as that the price is outrageous.

Here's what I mean about integrated ticketing
-A zonal system (central zone, inner south, inner north, west, outer south etc etc etc)
-Ticket price depends on how many zones you're travelling in
-One ticket allows unlimited changes within the zone(s) for a set period of time (60 minutes in central, 90 in two zones, 120 in all zones)
-Weekly/Monthly passes are priced depending on zones to be travelled in
-System is equally beneficial to regular/occasional users
-System views public transport as ALL modes (bus/tram/DART/Arrow), so ticket covers whatever mode is required by passenger and doesn't impose any crazy restrictions common in most Irish """"integrated"""" tickets

On another point: Here's another example of Dublin Bus fleecing customers. At the ticket machines next to the 747 stop at the Airport, two ticket options are given: a single journey on 747 costs €5; an all-day rambler costs €5. Most of the tourists choose the single ticket, and end up paying for another ticket when they take another bus(es) that day.

Why does DB not abolish the single journey 747 ticket and give all passengers an all-day rambler. Or else put up the price of the rambler. But it is crazy that one ticket - a single journey - costs the same as an all-day ticket. The only losers are the tourists who DB seems happy to fleece. Twice.

Victor · 25-02-2005 10:39PM

enterprise wrote:

I haven't got a clue where Auburn Ave is!

Buy a map

Although this may not help you with the Irish-only bits :eek:

enterprise · 01-03-2005 01:17PM

I own a map but didn't have it on me at the time.

And no, it won't help with the Irish parts!

enterprise · 23-03-2005 03:04PM

After are massive rant that went from shoddy bus timetables to intergrated tickets and back to shoddy bus timetables it seems that Dublin Bus do listen to its customers (in a roundabout sort of way - via boards.ie).

The new timetable for the 40 group of routes has a little surprise for you all,

I invite you to take a look at

http://www.dublinbus.ie/news_centre/timetable_and_route_news.asp?action=view&news_id=429

and let us have your views!

Metrobest · 23-03-2005 03:51PM

Hmmm. A small improvement but it retains the original flaw: what's written in Irish is not written in english.
For example, just imagine you're a tourist who wants to visit Glasnevin. Well the english section of the 40 timetable does not mention Glasnevin, it only mentions road names - no use for anyone who doesn't live in the area. The Irish section, meanwhile, helpfully mentions "Reilig Ghlas Naíon" - how helpful indeed for non Irish-speakers!

enterprise · 23-03-2005 04:49PM

I somehow suspected that Metrobest wouldn't be entirely happy!

jlang · 23-03-2005 10:08PM

Irish or English, the route changes are an improvement. Now if only they could rearrange the 39 so it doesn't double back on itself so much and take 2 hours to get into town.

Shoddy bus timetables.. In Irish!

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