Shoddy bus timetables.. In Irish!

Metrobest

As I stood at the bus stop waiting patiently in the snow this morning, I tried to figure out the mindset that could create a bus timetable written in a language nobody can speak. The bus was the 19, the stop was Harrington Street.

The timetable wielded times for the bus (From Jamestown Road terminus). Listed were about five or six locations the bus route serves. All words were in Irish. Beside me stood a Japanese native. He peered at the bus timetable and pulled a face. Obviously he could not understand a word of it. He is not alone. The fact is, most of us possess only the most basic level of Irish. Why a timetable in Irish when everybody speaks English? It makes no sense.

This may endear Dublin Bus to the gaelgoirs' lobby, but must of us are left waiting at the bus stop in horrified bemusement. Wouldn't it make far more sense to write the timetables in English/French/German/Spanish rather than in a dying language only a tiny minority speaks? Tokenism towards the Irish language is all very well, but when it ends up delaying and confusing passengers, it should be stamped out. Immediately.

Crossley

Indeed. As someone pointed out recently there are more Mandarin speakers in Ireland than Irish speakers. Very powerful lobby the Gaelige fascists though.

Bogger77

I'd like to see multi lingual signs for bus stops etc, including French, Spanish and German, but only on inter city/ longer distance routes, not dublin bus or luas.

Having travelled on public transport in France and Italy, I've noticed a distinct lack of Multi Lingual signs on timetables and the like in most train and bus stations. But I didn't have any issues, I make an effort to find out that Rome is called Roma etc.

I'm totally in favour of Dual Lang signs, Irish and English. I can see the problems that arise where Irish only is used, but I've never seen any Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann stop (even in gealtacht areas) that are 100% as gealige.

Capt'n Midnight

Don't forget that a bus time table is something that just tells you how late the bus is.

John R

For some reason all of the new style timetables have the intermediate points in Irish only, but they have the approx timings in English.

new


old

They seem to be going back to the old style on the website though.

AndrewMc

Bogger77 wrote:

Having travelled on public transport in France and Italy, I've noticed a distinct lack of Multi Lingual signs on timetables and the like in most train and bus stations. But I didn't have any issues, I make an effort to find out that Rome is called Roma etc.

But in Italy, Italian is the predominant language, isn't it? Makes sense that way.

What I find more irritating is the removal of bus fare information...

angeldelight

The names of the places is a stupid thing to have in Irish anyway though... even with good Irish, they're not all direct translations and some Irish names bear no resemblence to the English names so you're still not going to have a clue. Personally I'd like everything to be in both languages cause I think we should make more of an effort with Irish.

Bogger77

John R wrote:

For some reason all of the new style timetables have the intermediate points in Irish only, but they have the approx timings in English.

new


old

They seem to be going back to the old style on the website though.

Even So John, at the bottom, you still get the listing of stages in English. Now the way metrobest had described it, I was expecting to see the timetable totally in Irish with no english translations for place names.
It's a bit hard to read the Irish only names listed, as some of these are made up pseudo Irish names of english-name only places. I'd like to see multi lingual signs, not one language, it would have taken only one more line to have the enlish names listed on thos time timetables.

Bogger77

AndrewMc wrote:

But in Italy, Italian is the predominant language, isn't it? Makes sense that way.

What I find more irritating is the removal of bus fare information...

I was refering to the suggestion that we should have chinese lang signs (they've since edited the orginal message)

I find the lack of fare info strange, esp when you have the line about having correct change only on the timetable!

John R

Bogger77 wrote:

Even So John, at the bottom, you still get the listing of stages in English. Now the way metrobest had described it, I was expecting to see the timetable totally in Irish with no english translations for place names.
It's a bit hard to read the Irish only names listed, as some of these are made up pseudo Irish names of english-name only places. I'd like to see multi lingual signs, not one language, it would have taken only one more line to have the enlish names listed on thos time timetables.

When those timetables are printed up for bus stops the stages are left out.

John R

Bogger77 wrote:

I was refering to the suggestion that we should have chinese lang signs (they've since edited the orginal message)

I find the lack of fare info strange, esp when you have the line about having correct change only on the timetable!

It is because of lack of will/effort/funds/staff/space/oversight/a conspiracy to trap tourists in an endless loop of cross-city bus routes*

It would require different timetables to be printed up for each stop as the fares change depending on starting point.

There is also the problem of space, on stops with large numbers of routes there isn't the space to list times and fares for all routes.

It has been done on a limited basis for several years, but only on "City Swift" routes. It is very handy, particularly for occasional passengers.

With the imminent introduction of smart card ticketing there is going to have to be a big improvement in timetabling and fare information but what will happen is anyones guess.

As long as the provision of bus services remains in its current political limbo (where the Dept. of Transport block CIE from improving their services in anticipation of Ex-Minister Brennan's fantasy privitisation bonanza which will not happen anytime soon) small but important changes like this will have very little chance of being done properly.

*Delete as required.

Bogger77

A simple : "€ X.ZZ to City Center / an Lar"
at each bus stop shouldn't be that problematic.

But I agree with you, this whole supposed privitisation of bus routes is seriously in bits. and it's the customer/bus user thats losing out

_Kaiser_

But I agree with you, this whole supposed privitisation of bus routes is seriously in bits. and it's the customer/bus user thats losing out

Ah in fairness now, Dublin Bus "services" have been in a shambles LONG before the word Privitisation was ever mentioned..that's just the latest excuse being offered for the piss-poor service that's being offered (no integrated ticketing, inability to adhere to schedules, timetables that are virtually useless, poor customer service, attitudes of some of their staff .. the list goes on!)

John R

Kaiser2000 wrote:

[/b]
Ah in fairness now, Dublin Bus "services" have been in a shambles LONG before the word Privitisation was ever mentioned..that's just the latest excuse being offered for the piss-poor service that's being offered (no integrated ticketing, inability to adhere to schedules, timetables that are virtually useless, poor customer service, attitudes of some of their staff .. the list goes on!)

Care to qualify any of those sweeping generalisations or is it just another tedious moan?

_Kaiser_

oh ok then...

Integrated Ticketing - only now being phased in. Why? Given that for example Holland has had it since the 80s.


Inability to adhere to schedules - surely a case for fraud given that DB charge for timetables. Buses either don't show, leave early but very rarely do they show up/depart at the posted time.

Excuses range from: "I don't know, you'd have to speak to the controller" (who of course is always on the road and never available), traffic, "that driver didn't turn up today" or "Harristown didn't send us any buses for those 3 - back to back I might add - duties" (that I thought was a good one! Surely as the depot responsible for that route, they should have asked why?).
Anyway, as a paying customer, DB's staff issues isn't my problem - only the fact that I've now been delayed as a result.


Timetables that are virually useless - What good is it knowing what time the bus left the terminus MILES away? (especially say if you have no idea where that terminus is so have nothing to judge even an approximate time on). Every timetable should be for THAT stop - and it IS possible.. again, see Holland for examples.


Poor Customer Service - Everytime you have cause to raise a complaint, you're passed around from person to person (as accountability seems to be a foreign term to most - again not all! - staff) and when you DO eventually get to make the complaint, you never hear anymore about it and nothing changes.


Attitudes of some staff - As I've posted before, having been told to "f*ck off", threatened and been given other such examples of verbal and gestural abuse by some (not all!) drivers I think this explains this example.

antoinolachtnai

Side-note, where exactly is integrated ticketing being phased in, as a matter of interest.

_Kaiser_

my bad.. I'm not feeling well the last few days (damn this flu bug that's goin around ) and thought I read something here about new tickets being introduced, but as it turns out it's because of new machines being rolled out - of course if anything this only strengthens my point as all they're doing then is STILL talking about it

John R

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Integrated Ticketing - only now being phased in. Why? Given that for example Holland has had it since the 80s.

Incorrect, there has been integrated ticketing between rail and bus for as long as I can remember, weekly and monthly tickets, day tickets, family tickets and dart feeder tickets.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Inability to adhere to schedules - surely a case for fraud given that DB charge for timetables. Buses either don't show, leave early but very rarely do they show up/depart at the posted time.

Gross exxageration, my local route and the rush hour service I use a few times a week are on time more than 75% of the time. Both of these are not usually held up badly by traffic although the journey home can fluctuate between 45mns and 1h15 purely on the traffic in the city centre.
Routes that have a relatively unblocked run are very reliable, others are to a certain extent at the mercy of Dublin's traffic and I challenge anyone to plot two return journies to/from or through the city and be accurate to within any usable margin of error.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Timetables that are virually useless - What good is it knowing what time the bus left the terminus MILES away? (especially say if you have no idea where that terminus is so have nothing to judge even an approximate time on). Every timetable should be for THAT stop - and it IS possible.. again, see Holland for examples.

Again Intermediate times vary considerably at different times of the day and with the varying levels of gridlock across the city. The current timetables have approxamate intermediate timings listed.
Oh Right, Holland. It is not as if there is any difference in the infrastructure between here and there, I mean they don't provide dedicated bus corridors for entire routes or priority at lights or severely curtail private car use in city centres in favour of public transport like we have in good ole Dublin. If only we had completely ignored public transport provision for decades and then suddenly demanded a top class service without paying any extra for it of course like they did we too could time our buses to the tenth of a second.

Oops, silly me I got our corrupt little banana republic mixed up with a country that has some sense of infrastructure planning.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Poor Customer Service - Everytime you have cause to raise a complaint, you're passed around from person to person (as accountability seems to be a foreign term to most - again not all! - staff) and when you DO eventually get to make the complaint, you never hear anymore about it and nothing changes.

Ah yes, the dying art of letter writing.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Attitudes of some staff - As I've posted before, having been told to "f*ck off", threatened and been given other such examples of verbal and gestural abuse by some (not all!) drivers I think this explains this example.

Well some people have bad days, some have bad weeks and some are just complete arseholes. Weeding out the latter, particularly in a job like that where there is seldom anyone in authority present is difficult to say the least.
I am sure in all of those instances you were the model of a perfect gentleman.
I have seen far more instances of drivers taking abuse than giving it and no I am not excusing the small percentage who are purposely abusive to passengers.

John R

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Side-note, where exactly is integrated ticketing being phased in, as a matter of interest.

The contactless smart cards are being introduced first on LUAS in the next month or so then Irish Rail with Dublin Bus fully operational early next year.

_Kaiser_

Oh Right, Holland. It is not as if there is any difference in the infrastructure between here and there, I mean they don't provide dedicated bus corridors for entire routes or priority at lights or severely curtail private car use in city centres in favour of public transport like we have in good ole Dublin. If only we had completely ignored public transport provision for decades and then suddenly demanded a top class service without paying any extra for it of course like they did we too could time our buses to the tenth of a second.

Oops, silly me I got our corrupt little banana republic mixed up with a country that has some sense of infrastructure planning.

Ignoring the childish sarcasm, you actually have stumbled across a key part of the problem here: a lack of proper and forward planning.
As for investment, where's all that NDP and the ever increasing fares money going then, because aside from new vehicles, I don't see any improvement in the service being offered - if anything it's getting worse.
For example, why someone decided it'd be a good idea to order almost 400 odd single-door double deckers, as opposed to introducing a proper entry-exit system using front and rear doors (like they tried in the mid-90s and which they have in every other major city, but which failed here of course due to communication problems between management and staff and union resistance) is beyond me. Decreased loading/unloading times, and the subsequent benefits to traffic flow and timetabling would be a much better thing than the current system.
I hear one of the latest ideas now being considered is to introduce longer Hong Kong style triple axle buses, which I'm betting won't then fit on a lot of our smaller inner city roads.
Again it's not bigger buses we need, but proper planning. adequate staff levels and route scheduling.

Ah yes, the dying art of letter writing.

Now why should I go through the time and expense of writing a letter, especially given that on the few occasions that I have done in the past, any reply has been (a) weeks - or more - later and (b) a bland statement saying that the matter has been looked into which no indication of what actions - if any - have been taken.

Besides, this IS the 21st century and we have these wonderful things called email and phones - and Dublin Bus DO have sections on their website for mailing customer feedback and a customer service number.
As long as you have the relevant information, whoever is responsible for taking customer complaint calls/emails should be able to take the information from them.

Well some people have bad days, some have bad weeks and some are just complete arseholes. Weeding out the latter, particularly in a job like that where there is seldom anyone in authority present is difficult to say the least.

Granted but again we ALL have bad days. That's no excuse for abusing customers. If *I* did it in my job - and I deal with customers every day - I'd be fired. The old saying: if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen springs to mind. And the fact that DB don't have enough inspectors to monitor their staff isn't my problem - hire some. There's plenty of people out there looking for work. But I do believe this lack of supervision is indeed partly the cause of a lot of the problems experienced as a bus user.

I am sure in all of those instances you were the model of a perfect gentleman.

Given that you don't know me at all, please leave the smart comments at home (they do nothing to strengthen your argument). In fact I was very polite in the occasions involved as I'm well aware that screaming and abusing someone gets you nowhere. I just ring the depot (for whatever that's worth).

Metrobest

John R wrote:

Incorrect, there has been integrated ticketing between rail and bus for as long as I can remember, weekly and monthly tickets, day tickets, family tickets and dart feeder tickets.

Oh Right, Holland. It is not as if there is any difference in the infrastructure between here and there, I mean they don't provide dedicated bus corridors for entire routes or priority at lights or severely curtail private car use in city centres in favour of public transport like we have in good ole Dublin. If only we had completely ignored public transport provision for decades and then suddenly demanded a top class service without paying any extra for it of course like they did we too could time our buses to the tenth of a second.
.

Aren't you a bus driver? Then that might go some way towards explaining your irrational defence of CIE. Nobody is doubting that some of the drivers in Dublin Bus are lovely, some of the routes punctual, some of the planning immaculate. But these things are all too rare.

Please don't insult our intelligence by saying there is "intergrated ticketing". That's a falsity. For point-to-point trips by public transport there is NOTHING. Say I want to travel on the 14 bus to Harrington Street, then a 19 to St James's Hospital, then a LUAS to Heuston and then an Arrow to Hazelhatch, I would have to pay for FOUR tickets for a single trip. This is a joke and it exposes the shabby and useless planning that goes into Irish public transport.

The comparison with Holland is entirely valid. Both capitals are in the EU, similar in size and population. You have slipped into a "sure-we'll-never-be-good-enough" mentality, pretending Ireland is not capable of decent infrastructure. The only thing holding us back is lack of imagination. Look at what Michael O'Leary did for aviation. Are you saying that that same entrepreneurial spirit could not be channelled into Dublin's buses?

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Side-note, where exactly is integrated ticketing being phased in, as a matter of interest.

Some infrastructure is already in place at Luas stops and on busses.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Say I want to travel on the 14 bus to Harrington Street, then a 19 to St James's Hospital, then a LUAS to Heuston and then an Arrow to Hazelhatch, I would have to pay for FOUR tickets for a single trip.

A contrived journey.

You could of course get a daily / weekly / monthly bus & rail pass or if the trip is a one of get a daily bus ticket and a return rail ticket.

Remember Hazelhatch isn't in the city.

antoinolachtnai

John R wrote:

The contactless smart cards are being introduced first on LUAS in the next month or so then Irish Rail with Dublin Bus fully operational early next year.

Are you certain about this? As far as I know, the tender for the integrated ticketing system hasn't been concluded. According to a news report, three of the five tenderers have withdrawn because they believed the money was not available. This means that the whole process is in severe trouble. I hope they can find a way to recover the situation, but it's hard to see how the RPA can conclude the tender in these circumstances.

Integrating this system is a major challenge, not least because there will be at least three fareboxes involved at the beginning and potentially 8 or more later on. TfL in London spent over two years in testing and season-ticket mode before it introduced a stored-value card, and it only has one farebox.

Testing and shakedown is really important for this type of setup because if a stored-value system goes wrong, it's a very serious issue It would mean an immediate loss of revenue, with no prospect of recovery.

Still, if you have different information, I'd be interested to hear.

enterprise

Talk a stroll down to your nearest tram stop and you will see 4 poles (two on each platform at each end) for the Smart Card readers.

As has already been stated Smart Cards are being launched next month on LUAS with Rail and Bus by the end of year. Also take a trip in the 49 / 49A to see the new Dublin Bus ticket machines which are smart card capable.

enterprise

Take a look at the web link to see the latest news on the ITS.

http://www.rpa.ie/?id=34

antoinolachtnai

Smart cards are not the same as integrated ticketing. They are only one small part of the overall system. There's a lot more to it than a few readers on buses and Luas platforms.

spacetweek

Metrobest wrote:

As I stood at the bus stop waiting patiently in the snow this morning, I tried to figure out the mindset that could create a bus timetable written in a language nobody can speak. The bus was the 19, the stop was Harrington Street.
...
This may endear Dublin Bus to the gaelgoirs' lobby, but must of us are left waiting at the bus stop in horrified bemusement. Wouldn't it make far more sense to write the timetables in English/French/German/Spanish rather than in a dying language only a tiny minority speaks? Tokenism towards the Irish language is all very well, but when it ends up delaying and confusing passengers, it should be stamped out. Immediately.

Totally agree. I was trying to decipher a timetable on College St yesterday with the same problems. BTW, the stops are NOT all also in English; the info giving the time between stops is (Ballsbridge->(20 Minutes)->whereever), but this doesn't include all of the stops listed in Irish.

This is the same force-feeding that goes on in school, that puts almost everyone (including me) off Irish for life. THIS IS AN ENGLISH-SPEAKING COUNTRY. GET OVER IT. :mad: Are we really that insecure about our nationhood that we still feel the need to do things like this?

As for French and Italian in France and Italy, at least everybody in those countries actually speaks those languages. I don't speak Irish. They would have done better to have French/German/Spanish on the timetables - it would be used more often.

enterprise

Yes and as I have already stated it is a phased introduction.

March 2005: Luas

End of Year: Dublin Bus and Iarnrod Eireann.

When fully operational you will be able to transfer to any mode of transport with the one card.

Also it offers numerous new opportunties for customers with season smart cards as well - like a Rail / Bus / Luas ticket which isn't available and I badly need!

enterprise

spacetweek wrote:

As for French and Italian in France and Italy, at least everybody in those countries actually speaks those languages. I don't speak Irish. They would have done better to have French/German/Spanish on the timetables - it would be used more often.

Couldn't agree more!

In was in Blanch S.C. a few weeks ago and required to get a bus to Coolmine station. I knew the 239 plus another route passed the station but wasn't sure which one. Consulted my DB timetable book and couldn't figure any of it out as the routing was in Irish and the point to point timing didn't help matters either.

In the end I rang a friend who told me it was the 237, as none of them suited me I got a 39 to the top of Coolmine ave and walked down to the station.

So DB - please change your timetables back to English and very few of us can speak Irish!

spacetweek

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Smart cards are not the same as integrated ticketing. They are only one small part of the overall system. There's a lot more to it than a few readers on buses and Luas platforms.

Smart cards allow you to pay for all modes of transport with the same card. In what way is this not integrated ticketing?

mackerski

John R wrote:

Incorrect, there has been integrated ticketing between rail and bus for as long as I can remember, weekly and monthly tickets, day tickets, family tickets and dart feeder tickets.

You'll surely accept that this token level of integration does nothing to encourage new users to use public transport, particularly those whose use is infrequent.

Dermot

murphaph

All this talk about smart cards. Will I be able to leave my house in Blanch, get on the bus and buy a paper ticket to say, Tallaght, using BUS-->SUBURBAN RAIL-->LUAS? I've absolutely nothing against regular PT users getting smart cards but that's not integrated ticketing, it's cashless payment. Somebody please reassure me that joe tourist won't need to get a smart card when s/he arrives at the airport in order to make a journey with more than 1 change.

Bogger77

enterprise wrote:

Couldn't agree more!

In was in Blanch S.C. a few weeks ago and required to get a bus to Coolmine station. I knew the 239 plus another route passed the station but wasn't sure which one. Consulted my DB timetable book and couldn't figure any of it out as the routing was in Irish and the point to point timing didn't help matters either.

In the end I rang a friend who told me it was the 237, as none of them suited me I got a 39 to the top of Coolmine ave and walked down to the station.

So DB - please change your timetables back to English and very few of us can speak Irish!

Why blame Dub Bus if you can't understand a timetable book, while there's problems with the bus stop information, the book isn't difficult to read.

As for your lack of ability to understand irish, sorry, but that's an issue you'll have to deal with.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

All this talk about smart cards. Will I be able to leave my house in Blanch, get on the bus and buy a paper ticket to say, Tallaght, using BUS-->SUBURBAN RAIL-->LUAS? I've absolutely nothing against regular PT users getting smart cards but that's not integrated ticketing, it's cashless payment. Somebody please reassure me that joe tourist won't need to get a smart card when s/he arrives at the airport in order to make a journey with more than 1 change.

Why not? When I arrived in New York I got the courtesy bus to the subway station, bought a one-week ticket (which I was able to top up on the eight day for one extra day) and made two changes. The only real difference to an existing DART / bus ticket (which admittedly you can only have 2 out of 3 of DART / bus / Luas) was the card was plastic and rechargeable.

John R

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Are you certain about this? As far as I know, the tender for the integrated ticketing system hasn't been concluded. According to a news report, three of the five tenderers have withdrawn because they believed the money was not available. This means that the whole process is in severe trouble. I hope they can find a way to recover the situation, but it's hard to see how the RPA can conclude the tender in these circumstances.

Half arsed journalism probably, the more I read about topics I have accurate information about the more obvious it is that wildly inaccurate news reports are commonplace.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Integrating this system is a major challenge, not least because there will be at least three fareboxes involved at the beginning and potentially 8 or more later on. TfL in London spent over two years in testing and season-ticket mode before it introduced a stored-value card, and it only has one farebox.


Testing and shakedown is really important for this type of setup because if a stored-value system goes wrong, it's a very serious issue It would mean an immediate loss of revenue, with no prospect of recovery.

Well hopefully the experience and debugging that took place in earlier installations will allow a quicker rollout here, once the hardware is in place.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Still, if you have different information, I'd be interested to hear.

Once the hardware had been purchased there was never any way they could pull out of the implementation. Luas is already being installed and Dublin Bus purchased a new ticketing system with smart card readers, wireless data link and GPS for their entire fleet early last year, it is being trialled right now as enterprise previously stated.

John R

murphaph wrote:

All this talk about smart cards. Will I be able to leave my house in Blanch, get on the bus and buy a paper ticket to say, Tallaght, using BUS-->SUBURBAN RAIL-->LUAS? I've absolutely nothing against regular PT users getting smart cards but that's not integrated ticketing, it's cashless payment. Somebody please reassure me that joe tourist won't need to get a smart card when s/he arrives at the airport in order to make a journey with more than 1 change.

No. I am pretty sure that there will not be an expansion in the on-bus purchase options.
It might be terribly handy for the occasional user to get on the bus and have a two minute conversation with the driver about his various ticketing options but it is not convenient for all the other passengers whose journey is increased because of it.
One of the big advantages of cashless pre-payment to bus services is the decrease in stop dwell times.
If I had my way once the system is fully implemented all bus services would have a single flat fare priced high enough to discourage cash payment.

There are plenty of ways to accomodate tourists, many already take advantage of the bus/rail tickets available at the airport from the CIE counter or ticket machines. There is no reason they cannot be sold smartcards with daily/weekend/weekly passes for whatever modes they like pre-installed.

murphaph

John R wrote:

No. I am pretty sure that there will not be an expansion in the on-bus purchase options.
It might be terribly handy for the occasional user to get on the bus and have a two minute conversation with the driver about his various ticketing options but it is not convenient for all the other passengers whose journey is increased because of it.
One of the big advantages of cashless pre-payment to bus services is the decrease in stop dwell times.
If I had my way once the system is fully implemented all bus services would have a single flat fare priced high enough to discourage cash payment.

There are plenty of ways to accomodate tourists, many already take advantage of the bus/rail tickets available at the airport from the CIE counter or ticket machines. There is no reason they cannot be sold smartcards with daily/weekend/weekly passes for whatever modes they like pre-installed.

You've assumed the driver would be required to sell me the ticket. In Germany there are ticket machines located on board buses (complete with zone maps and routes) and drivers do not accept cash.

So what I'm getting here is that any integrated journey will require a smart card? No integrated paper tickets for occasional users?

John R

Metrobest wrote:

Aren't you a bus driver? Then that might go some way towards explaining your irrational defence of CIE.

I have answered that question TO YOU more than once before and quite frankly my occupation is none of your business.

A question of impartiality from you is simply laughable, at least three quarters of your posts on boards have been one-sided drivel to push your *metro best* angle.

Metrobest wrote:

Please don't insult our intelligence by saying there is "intergrated ticketing". That's a falsity.

It may not be what you want out of integration but it IS integrated. 1 ticket that allows unlimited use of most/all services of three operators is integration.
In fact I can think of one tourist ticket that allows unlimited use of six operators services on this island.

I really don't think it's fair on others for you to co-opt their brainpower without invitation.
As for your intelligence, show some and then I might be persuaded to insult it.

John R

murphaph wrote:

You've assumed the driver would be required to sell me the ticket. In Germany there are ticket machines located on board buses (complete with zone maps and routes) and drivers do not accept cash.

I assume that is based on a trust with occasional checking system where for most journeys fare payment is not verified?

murphaph wrote:

So what I'm getting here is that any integrated journey will require a smart card? No integrated paper tickets for occasional users?

The current ranges of paper tickets, on board and pre bought will be available for a while yet.
I don't see the big problem with occasional users buying a card, they will be widely available at newsagents as well as rail and tram stops.

If you say on board machines work in Germany then fine but I cannot imagine how such a system can allow smooth operation and short dwell times on busy city bus routes.

Pre-paying for phone credit is easy and simple and millions of Irish have no problem with it, this travel card system should be just as easy.

Victor

Behave!

antoinolachtnai

spacetweek wrote:

Smart cards allow you to pay for all modes of transport with the same card. In what way is this not integrated ticketing?

Sorry, didn't explain myself well enough.

The smart card system that is being put onto the Luas and the various other services while we speak is free-standing. However, it is envisioned that it will be integrated with other services.

However, this has not been done yet. It is not a trivial thing to do. It is very complex to implement.

The work on implementing it hasn't even begun. According to information in the media, the tendering process is in serious trouble.

I don't know why anyone believes that the system will be in place by the end of next March. We were told in late 2004 that it would be finished by end 2005. The date keeps receding. I have worked a few big IT projects in my time, and just going on the information that is out in the public domain, I can't see how this one can possibly be delivered on the timescale people are talking about.

There is also the issue about having an integrated fare, as distinct from an integrated ticket, so you can get a bit of a discount if you use a few different modes or buses during a trip. This was actually the original purpose of integrated ticketing. Doing this will require some sort of business arrangement between all the operators, which they will all have to subscribe to. Again, this could take a while to negotiate.

KC61

Just to try and explain what has happened here:

Late last year Dublin Bus published a new timetable book - not new timetables, just a new book. They make timetable changes on an ad hoc basis, but re-issue the book containing the timetables on an annual basis.

Following many requests, they decided to re-format the presentation of the timetables in that book and the free route leaflets available in 59 Upper O'Connell Street.

The new presentation sees a long awaited introduction of the display of approximate intermediate points along each route to the left of the timetables, while retaining the full stage point listing at the base of each timetable.

Some bright spark in the timetabling department then decided to remove the English route list at the top of the page as it was already included twice on the page elsewhere - the stage points and to a lesser extent the intermediate timing points.

However, what this person failed to cop was that these timetables also form the basis of those placed on timetable carousels at bus stops. Of course the timetables mounted at stops do not include staging points for space reasons, and hence there are now no English route listings on the bus stops! Entirely predictable given DB's track record in this area.

There is no other explanation - it has nothing to do with space / Irish Language activists etc. Pure and simply put it was yet another cock-up by the timetabling department who are quite frankly a loose cannon within Dublin Bus. We know this due to the significant number of errors in the published timetables (e.g. buses that do operate not being listed; others which take route deviations not having those listed; some buses being listed that do not operate!), the errors in local service guides, and the frequent lack of communication between garages and Head Office on timetable changes. On an equal level is the timetable carousel mounted on the inbound stop outside Cuisine de France in Tallaght which has an outbound 65B timetable on it, despite having inbound timetables for other routes! I could go on ad nauseum.

DB has improved in many ways but in the little things, particularly the impartment of information to customers, they have an awful long way to go!

A classic example is the publication of the new timetable book referred to above two weeks before a large number of routes moved to the new Harristown Garage. Did the book mention the new depot? No! Which timetables are included in the book? The ones before the move! Unbelievable!

I hope this clarifies this - And hopefully someone in DB will take note and do something about it!

murphaph

@JohnR
Yeah, the systems I've seen are all honour systems. I know what's coming next.....and I agree that fare evasion would be higher here but I look to Connex and their example with Luas. I've used it 6 times and been checked 5 times. I can't remember the last time I was checked on BAC or IE (unmanned stations can assist easy fare evasion).

I agree with antoinleachtnai that we be careful to get integrated fares(ZONES!!) not just integrated tickets (cashless payment but still paying twice for 1 journey if you have to change).

I might sound anti-smart card but I'm not at all. Just reckon they might be blinding people with science, hoping we don't notice that the system still charges us for every mode used as opposed to for every journey made.

John R

trainuser wrote:

Just to try and explain what has happened here: ...

Yep, sounds like the most logical chain of events to arrive at timetable carousels with Irish only route listings.

Agree too on the inaccuracies in the timetabling dept, some haven't been fixed properly for decades. It is not as if correct times are unknown, they are all on the drivers rosters.

John R

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Sorry, didn't explain myself well enough.

The smart card system that is being put onto the Luas and the various other services while we speak is free-standing. However, it is envisioned that it will be integrated with other services.

However, this has not been done yet. It is not a trivial thing to do. It is very complex to implement.

That AFAIK is only a possible addition, I wouldn't expect much interest from commercial bodies until it is up and running successfully for public transport, if the RPA or whoever proposed these additions are relying on outside income to make the project a success from the start there may well be trouble. It was my understanding that that part was tagged on as an additional benefit rather than an essential element.
Either way the whole thing it too far advanced now not to be completed for public transport and if that is a success the rest will most likely work itself out.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I don't know why anyone believes that the system will be in place by the end of next March. We were told in late 2004 that it would be finished by end 2005. The date keeps receding. I have worked a few big IT projects in my time, and just going on the information that is out in the public domain, I can't see how this one can possibly be delivered on the timescale people are talking about.

I would say the hardware will be completely installed by then and the simpler products like season tickets could be brought out quickly enough but rushing the complex pay-as-you-go products before they are thoroughly tested would be disastrous. When is the next election due?

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There is also the issue about having an integrated fare, as distinct from an integrated ticket, so you can get a bit of a discount if you use a few different modes or buses during a trip. This was actually the original purpose of integrated ticketing. Doing this will require some sort of business arrangement between all the operators, which they will all have to subscribe to. Again, this could take a while to negotiate.

It can be introduced without that but it discounted fares is the only way it is going to appeal to alot of people. Currently Dublin Bus are the only ones who offer reduced price pre-paid tickets outside of the heavy use commuter tickets and seeing as they will have the largest potential drop in revenue (if usage didn't increase but current users switched to discounted smartcard fares) it is a good sign.

It is also the perfect time to simplify the bus fare structure but that is entirely down to the government who control cash fares on bus and rail.

John R

murphaph wrote:

@JohnR
Yeah, the systems I've seen are all honour systems. I know what's coming next.....and I agree that fare evasion would be higher here but I look to Connex and their example with Luas. I've used it 6 times and been checked 5 times. I can't remember the last time I was checked on BAC or IE (unmanned stations can assist easy fare evasion).

To provide LUAS level of ticket checking on the bus network would require a very large number of ticket checkers, any less and the large bus travelling scum element will just not pay at all and on the occasion they are caught cause large scale trouble and disruption. These are the same ones who already fare evade as much as possible, next time you are on a route with dodgy residents sit at the front and see how many 80c fares are requested by the tracksuit brigade who then travel as far as they want and on the very rare occasion that they are challenged it is a huge drama to either get them to pay up, leave the bus or wait for the guards to physically remove them.

There would be other advantages to a high level of inspection, a reduction in anti social behaviour, increased sense of security and a reduction in vandalism but I cannot see any hope of funding being made available for that sort of proactive measure.

murphaph wrote:

I agree with antoinleachtnai that we be careful to get integrated fares(ZONES!!) not just integrated tickets (cashless payment but still paying twice for 1 journey if you have to change).

I might sound anti-smart card but I'm not at all. Just reckon they might be blinding people with science, hoping we don't notice that the system still charges us for every mode used as opposed to for every journey made.

As long as the government keeps squeezing the subsidys to public transport operators there will be little scope for change. Currently the farebox provides a much higher percentage of the budgets for DB than any other similar operator in Europe, it is a huge disincentive to offer discounted fares.

antoinolachtnai

John R wrote:

That AFAIK is only a possible addition, I wouldn't expect much interest from commercial bodies until it is up and running successfully for public transport, if the RPA or whoever proposed these additions are relying on outside income to make the project a success from the start there may well be trouble. It was my understanding that that part was tagged on as an additional benefit rather than an essential element.

I've messed up explaining again. The story as I understand it is that the systems on each of luas and the various other services are separate, and that they will bring them together as part of the project that is currently being tendered for.

So that's why I say that what you see on Luas is not an example of integrated ticketing. It's just a basic one-operator smartcard system, no big deal. It will take a lot of further technical and business work to get the three or more systems to play together. It's an enormous project really.

Using the smartcard for other purposes is another deal altogether. Something like a general-purpose cashcard would require a further, large investment.

antoinolachtnai

murphaph wrote:

I agree with antoinleachtnai that we be careful to get integrated fares(ZONES!!) not just integrated tickets (cashless payment but still paying twice for 1 journey if you have to change).

From reading the original DoT documentation, my understanding is that they wanted to implement this by giving you a discount on the second bus ticket you purchase. This is how it is done in Singapore, as it happens. It works fine if you only have one bus company, of course, but when you have multiple bus companies, the exact terms of the deal are more likely to be open to dispute. (I believe it took a bit of work to get the whole financials sorted out in Singapore, where there are two bus companies.)

The government's plan to franchise routes out to other companies could make the whole thing a lot more complex.

murphaph

Oh dear, I can see this going pear shaped. If the ultimate goal of the smart cards is not complete fare integration (either through a zonal structure, my personal favourite or through discounted onward travel) then we are a laughing stock. Simple cashless payment does nothing for the customer (in reality) and everything for the operators. Do we want people out of their cars or what?

KC61

Victor,

Any chance that you could separate the discussion about smart cards and integrated ticketing from this thread please?

It's getting impossible to follow the main subject - poor information for passengers of DB!

Train User