Comparison of Protestants to Nazis by McAlesse

Horeb · 28-01-2005 12:58PM #1

Durkan defends President in Holocaust row
28/01/2005 - 11:35:21

SDLP Leader Mark Durkan sprang to the defence of President Mary McAleese today after she compared the Nazis’ hatred of Jews to those who taught children in Northern Ireland to despise Catholics.

President McAleese stirred unionist anger during a visit to Auschwitz yesterday when she compared the decades of anti-semitism which led to the Nazi atrocities to prejudice against Catholics in Northern Ireland.

During the 60th anniversary celebrations of the liberation of Auschwitz, she said: “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things.”

However her comments, which were broadcast on radio in the Republic, incensed the Rev Ian Paisley’s Democratic Unionists and David Trimble’s Ulster Unionists.

DUP Assembly member Ian Paisley Junior described her remarks as irrational while former Stormont Culture Minister Michael McGimpsey of the Ulster Unionists said they would also damage her outreach work with unionist communities in the North.

UP Assembly member Danny Kennedy also today said the President should be ashamed of herself and demanded a public apology.

“Political leaders from the Irish Republic would be better to say nothing about the Second World War given the record of Irish governments and the role played by senior politicians during and after the conflict ,” the Newry and Armagh MLA said, recalling the condolences offered by former Taoiseach Eamon De Valera to the German Embassy following the death of Hitler.

“As a Fianna Fáil President, Mrs McAleese should question the role and actions of her predecessors, rather than criticise the Protestants of Northern Ireland who at least fought against Nazism.”

Mark Durkan defended President McAleese, saying the Holocaust was a terrible event which had lessons for all countries.

“The Holocaust memorial event in the North has always referred to the lessons for our own society, which has its own prejudices around difference.

“We believe that it was this that the President was saying, as she will be able to show from her own record of bridge-building.

“We do not believe that she was attempting to equate directly any of the prejudices which exist in the North with the systematic policies of deadly hatred of the Nazi regime.”

He also accused Mr McGimpsey and Mr Paisley Junior of rushing to condemn the President while failing to address intolerance on their own doorstep.

“In response to the prejudice of Whitehall Square, Michael McGimpsey offered only explanation and excuse,” Mr Durkan said.

“Ian Paisley Junior refused to condemn the sectarianism of Harryville and too many unionist politicians were slow to condemn Holy Cross.

“Of course, no community in the North has a monopoly on prejudice. We must all confront it. That is what we should all be doing to learn the lesson of the Holocaust instead of having a party political squabble.”

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Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process.

I would for one if I was in power look for her resignation as less has caused wars in the past.

And for one she is not Irish as she is from Northern Ireland and hence should not hold office.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Villain · 28-01-2005 01:04PM

Well to be fair, her comments should be taken in the context of her interview as a whole, it's difficult to explain what I mean, but I believe she was saying that if a simalar situation arose here, everyone has a monster in them and that monster could have simalar consequences. I don't think her statement is as simple as "Protestants are like Nazi's because they hate Catholics".

I'm not trying to defend her just trying to put her comment in the correct context.

Horeb · 28-01-2005 01:07PM

Methinks it works both ways but the Nazi Hatred for Jews was far more worse that has gone on here and the catholic church in ireland are no angels as they raped and destroyed the soul of this country until people stood up.

I am not sectarian but comments like that could easily make me one if i was weak minded.

Zombrex · 28-01-2005 01:10PM

Very very stupid and offensive thing to say.

The point I imagine she was trying to make was that Irish people have an affinity with Jewish people because we have both been pursecuted. But what a dumb and offensive way of putting it. For a start I am pretty sure there were Catholic children raised to hate Protestants and Unionist in N.I. too. Secondly the culture divide in N.I. is nothing like the anti-semetism in Germany and eastern europe. The causes and manifistations are different. And last time i checked the Unions didn't try and exterminate the Catholics.

Can we have Robinson back please ....

galactus · 28-01-2005 01:15PM

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things," she said."

- McAleese

Unbalanced but a fair point. I think most right-minded people will accept that we transmit our prejudices to our kids.

She should have added some comments to the effect that there existed/exists "an irrational hatred of Protestants"

(NB those are *my* quotes, she didn't actually say that)

Johnmb · 28-01-2005 01:16PM

From the quote as to what she said, she was correct. She didn't compare the Nazis to the Unionists of Northern Ireland, she compared the situation that the Nazis exploited to the situation in Northern Ireland, and other situations around the world. People seem to like the idea that the Nazis created the hatred, when in fact they merely exploited it. It is very dangerous to fall into the trap of thinking that as long as no more nazis exist, such a thing will never be repeated. This Danny Kennedy character shows quite a lot of ignorance of history too. He goes on about the fact that protestants from Northern Ireland "at least fought against Nazism", while totally ignoring the fact that an equal number of men from the south also fought against Nazism, which meant that they had to join a foreign army and risk becoming pariahs back home. He also criticises the Irish governments condolences on the death of Hitler. That had to be done. Rightly, or wrongly, Ireland was neutral, and Hitler was the head of state of Germany at the time of his death. It is standard protocol to offer condolences to the embassy upon the death of that contries head of state.

Phil_321 · 28-01-2005 01:19PM

During the 60th anniversary celebrations of the liberation of Auschwitz, she said: “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things.”
...
...snip...
...
Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process

So what was untrue about what she said?

I hate the way all these groups/communities are just looking for something to take offence at nowadays.

gandalf · 28-01-2005 01:19PM

The mistake she made is she should of said "some people" instead of "people". She could have also added the "irrational hatred of the British" for some of our citizens (or non citizens as they don't recognise the state they live in!).

Sparks · 28-01-2005 01:20PM

Horeb, the one word she didn't use in her speech was "protestant".

galactus · 28-01-2005 01:20PM

Johnmb wrote:

He also criticises the Irish governments condolences on the death of Hitler. That had to be done. Rightly, or wrongly, Ireland was neutral, and Hitler was the head of state of Germany at the time of his death. It is standard protocol to offer condolences to the embassy upon the death of that contries head of state.

I for one agree with him on that point (the other points he made are, of course, factually incorrect).

Time for that apology Ireland.

I wonder if Switzerland offered condolences to Germany after Hitler's death...

galactus · 28-01-2005 01:22PM

Sparks wrote:

Horeb, the one word she didn't use in her speech was "protestant".

Technically you are correcr but, umm, who then has the "irrational fear of Catholics". Other catholics is it?

aidan_walsh · 28-01-2005 01:22PM

Sparks wrote:

Horeb, the one word she didn't use in her speech was "protestant".

No, but it was well implied.

“They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics..."

Johnmb · 28-01-2005 01:25PM

galactus wrote:

I for one agree with him on that point (the other points he made are, of course, factually incorrect).

Time for that apology Ireland.

I wonder if Switzerland offered condolences to Germany after Hitler's death...

They most likely did. I seem to remember that Ireland was the first country to do so, which would imply that there were others. On that aspect, Ireland has nothing to apologise for. We were not at war with Germany, and therefore had no excuse not to follow protocol.

joolsveer · 28-01-2005 01:26PM

I think that racism, sectarianism, antisemitism are all parts of the same disease whether it is practiced by catholics, protestants, jews, moslems, those of other religions, colours or creeds. Mary McAleese was making a similar point IMO.
You don't have to be a white to be a racist just as you don't have to be a protestant to be sectarian.

28-01-2005 01:29PM

Horeb-Security wrote:

Durkan defends President in Holocaust row
28/01/2005 - 11:35:21

Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process.

I think she was referring to the type of people who spat at Catholic school children on their way to school in North Belfast.
In that sense she was refering to some protestants not all.

The likes of those guys have the same warped view of their religion as AlQueda have of theirs.

Johnmb · 28-01-2005 01:30PM

joolsveer wrote:

I think that racism, sectarianism, antisemitism is all part of the same disease whether it is practiced by catholics, protestants, jews, moslems, those of other religions, colours or creeds. Mary McAleese was making a similar point IMO.

I agree. Her main problem was that she mentioned one side of the situation in Northern Ireland. She either should have just made a very general comment that could be applied to both sides, or mentioned both sides. But if it was an interview, she probably didn't have much time to think of every possible way of wording it, and came out with what she said. But a little common sense, and the context, would suggest that she wasn't singling out any one group.

Hobbes · 28-01-2005 01:32PM

galactus wrote:

Unbalanced but a fair point. I think most right-minded people will accept that we transmit our prejudices to our kids.

She should have added some comments to the effect that there existed/exists "an irrational hatred of Protestants"

Exactly. Both sides were pretty much up to the same thing.

vorbis · 28-01-2005 01:40PM

its not that bad a comment. In fact its quite true. Just needed the balance of a comment referring to the catholics irrational fear of protestants

bbbaldy · 28-01-2005 01:44PM

I think this is another example of the media blowing things out of proportion and making a story bigger than it actually is.
Does anybody out there actually think that her intention was to single out the protestants in NI as racists/bigots. If I remember correctly she said 'For example catholics', we all know that the hatred worked both ways, are people trying to say that she does not think so.
People who think this are in my opinion dramatising a bad choice of words in a speech whos intention was to highlight racial hatred in the world today.

ionapaul · 28-01-2005 01:49PM

At the same time, it was ill-advised considering the current climate

pollyantic · 28-01-2005 01:49PM

I have an irrational fear of protestants. All those years as a child listening to PAisely have fu**ed me up.

Seriously though i think she's right on the money.
It does indeed cut both ways though.

ionapaul · 28-01-2005 01:56PM

Considering she is seen by most Northern Protestants as representing the Catholics in NI more than the Protestants, her omission of mentioning the Catholic fear / hatred of Protestants smacks of one-sidedness to them.

I'm not a fan of our current President and her lack of wisdom in this instance adds to my low level of regard for her.

mr_angry · 28-01-2005 01:57PM

I agree. It was an unbalanced comment, but I think the reaction of people calling for her resignation and saying this will kill off the peace process is totally disproportionate. Get a grip.

gurramok · 28-01-2005 02:04PM

Well, the orange order have marches that celebrate protestant supremacy over catholics similar to nazi marches that hate jews. Again some protestants not all.
All the president did was speak the truth, she is from there so she would know what it was like growing up in the cauldron of hatred.

gandalf · 28-01-2005 02:06PM

Looks like she will have to build a new bridge eh :rolleyes:

simu · 28-01-2005 02:20PM

She really should have been more careful with her wording. Also, has she never heard of Godwin's law?

Kingsize · 28-01-2005 03:21PM

i think the point she was trying to make & its a very valid one usually ignored is that the nazis "success" (for want of a better phrase) was based on the complicity of ordinary people who had come around to this way of thinking, i think that she was really trying to point out that there is every possibility it could happen again right now in any number of places in the world.she might not have hit the nail on the head but i hope thats what she was saying.
incedentally I am reminded of footage i seen somewhere of national front skinheads doing nazi salutes while carrying pictures of Ian paisley back in the 70's.

the nazis hadnt got a monopoly on bigotry but nobody wants to report on that,better to leave it as the good guys versus the bad.

MG · 28-01-2005 03:22PM

Horeb-Security wrote:

“They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things.”

I would just like to point out what she ACTUALLY said:

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of FOR EXAMPLE Catholics"

I think therefore that she meant it to apply equally to both sides but just gave the example of one side, which in the context of the rest is clearly what she was saying. It was clumbsy but it was not directly exclusively at Protestants.

And by the way I'm not sure if she says "hatred of for example Catholics" or "hatred, for example, Catholics", which could imply that it was the Catholics teaching their children to hate.

LISTEN TO WHAT SHE ACTUALLY SAID!

Boggle · 28-01-2005 03:35PM

Whats the problem? She was right... People are still teaching their kids to hate others based on their own prejudices. Stop moaning and bitching about the fuppin EXAMPLES she gave and instead be glad she was willing to highlight this fact...

The paisley boys are just bitchin to get on telly and should summarily be shot for the open biggotry they display .... and the same should be said for any SF members preaching anti protestant hysterics.

simu · 28-01-2005 03:38PM

MG wrote:

I would just like to point out what she ACTUALLY said:

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of FOR EXAMPLE Catholics"

I think therefore that she meant it to apply equally to both sides but just gave the example of one side, which in the context of the rest is clearly what she was saying. It was clumbsy but it was not directly exclusively at Protestants.

And by the way I'm not sure she says "hatred of for example Catholics" or "hatred, for example, Catholics", which could imply that it was the Catholics teaching their children to hate.

LISTEN TO WHAT SHE ACTUALLY SAID!

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

galactus · 28-01-2005 03:40PM

Boggle wrote:

...The paisley boys are just bitchin to get on telly and should summarily be shot for the open biggotry they display...

Way to kick-start the Peace process, Boggle.

//sings: Are you George Bush in disguise?

Comparison of Protestants to Nazis by McAlesse

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