Comparison of Protestants to Nazis by McAlesse

Horeb

Durkan defends President in Holocaust row
28/01/2005 - 11:35:21

SDLP Leader Mark Durkan sprang to the defence of President Mary McAleese today after she compared the Nazis’ hatred of Jews to those who taught children in Northern Ireland to despise Catholics.

President McAleese stirred unionist anger during a visit to Auschwitz yesterday when she compared the decades of anti-semitism which led to the Nazi atrocities to prejudice against Catholics in Northern Ireland.

During the 60th anniversary celebrations of the liberation of Auschwitz, she said: “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things.”

However her comments, which were broadcast on radio in the Republic, incensed the Rev Ian Paisley’s Democratic Unionists and David Trimble’s Ulster Unionists.

DUP Assembly member Ian Paisley Junior described her remarks as irrational while former Stormont Culture Minister Michael McGimpsey of the Ulster Unionists said they would also damage her outreach work with unionist communities in the North.

UP Assembly member Danny Kennedy also today said the President should be ashamed of herself and demanded a public apology.

“Political leaders from the Irish Republic would be better to say nothing about the Second World War given the record of Irish governments and the role played by senior politicians during and after the conflict ,” the Newry and Armagh MLA said, recalling the condolences offered by former Taoiseach Eamon De Valera to the German Embassy following the death of Hitler.

“As a Fianna Fáil President, Mrs McAleese should question the role and actions of her predecessors, rather than criticise the Protestants of Northern Ireland who at least fought against Nazism.”

Mark Durkan defended President McAleese, saying the Holocaust was a terrible event which had lessons for all countries.

“The Holocaust memorial event in the North has always referred to the lessons for our own society, which has its own prejudices around difference.

“We believe that it was this that the President was saying, as she will be able to show from her own record of bridge-building.

“We do not believe that she was attempting to equate directly any of the prejudices which exist in the North with the systematic policies of deadly hatred of the Nazi regime.”

He also accused Mr McGimpsey and Mr Paisley Junior of rushing to condemn the President while failing to address intolerance on their own doorstep.

“In response to the prejudice of Whitehall Square, Michael McGimpsey offered only explanation and excuse,” Mr Durkan said.

“Ian Paisley Junior refused to condemn the sectarianism of Harryville and too many unionist politicians were slow to condemn Holy Cross.

“Of course, no community in the North has a monopoly on prejudice. We must all confront it. That is what we should all be doing to learn the lesson of the Holocaust instead of having a party political squabble.”


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Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process.

I would for one if I was in power look for her resignation as less has caused wars in the past.

And for one she is not Irish as she is from Northern Ireland and hence should not hold office.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Villain

Well to be fair, her comments should be taken in the context of her interview as a whole, it's difficult to explain what I mean, but I believe she was saying that if a simalar situation arose here, everyone has a monster in them and that monster could have simalar consequences. I don't think her statement is as simple as "Protestants are like Nazi's because they hate Catholics".

I'm not trying to defend her just trying to put her comment in the correct context.

Horeb

Methinks it works both ways but the Nazi Hatred for Jews was far more worse that has gone on here and the catholic church in ireland are no angels as they raped and destroyed the soul of this country until people stood up.

I am not sectarian but comments like that could easily make me one if i was weak minded.

Zombrex

Very very stupid and offensive thing to say.

The point I imagine she was trying to make was that Irish people have an affinity with Jewish people because we have both been pursecuted. But what a dumb and offensive way of putting it. For a start I am pretty sure there were Catholic children raised to hate Protestants and Unionist in N.I. too. Secondly the culture divide in N.I. is nothing like the anti-semetism in Germany and eastern europe. The causes and manifistations are different. And last time i checked the Unions didn't try and exterminate the Catholics.

Can we have Robinson back please ....

galactus

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things," she said."

- McAleese

Unbalanced but a fair point. I think most right-minded people will accept that we transmit our prejudices to our kids.

She should have added some comments to the effect that there existed/exists "an irrational hatred of Protestants"

(NB those are *my* quotes, she didn't actually say that)

Johnmb

From the quote as to what she said, she was correct. She didn't compare the Nazis to the Unionists of Northern Ireland, she compared the situation that the Nazis exploited to the situation in Northern Ireland, and other situations around the world. People seem to like the idea that the Nazis created the hatred, when in fact they merely exploited it. It is very dangerous to fall into the trap of thinking that as long as no more nazis exist, such a thing will never be repeated. This Danny Kennedy character shows quite a lot of ignorance of history too. He goes on about the fact that protestants from Northern Ireland "at least fought against Nazism", while totally ignoring the fact that an equal number of men from the south also fought against Nazism, which meant that they had to join a foreign army and risk becoming pariahs back home. He also criticises the Irish governments condolences on the death of Hitler. That had to be done. Rightly, or wrongly, Ireland was neutral, and Hitler was the head of state of Germany at the time of his death. It is standard protocol to offer condolences to the embassy upon the death of that contries head of state.

Phil_321

During the 60th anniversary celebrations of the liberation of Auschwitz, she said: “They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things.”
...
...snip...
...
Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process

So what was untrue about what she said?

I hate the way all these groups/communities are just looking for something to take offence at nowadays.

gandalf

The mistake she made is she should of said "some people" instead of "people". She could have also added the "irrational hatred of the British" for some of our citizens (or non citizens as they don't recognise the state they live in!).

Sparks

Horeb, the one word she didn't use in her speech was "protestant".

galactus

Johnmb wrote:

He also criticises the Irish governments condolences on the death of Hitler. That had to be done. Rightly, or wrongly, Ireland was neutral, and Hitler was the head of state of Germany at the time of his death. It is standard protocol to offer condolences to the embassy upon the death of that contries head of state.

I for one agree with him on that point (the other points he made are, of course, factually incorrect).

Time for that apology Ireland.

I wonder if Switzerland offered condolences to Germany after Hitler's death...

galactus

Sparks wrote:

Horeb, the one word she didn't use in her speech was "protestant".

Technically you are correcr but, umm, who then has the "irrational fear of Catholics". Other catholics is it?

aidan_walsh

Sparks wrote:

Horeb, the one word she didn't use in her speech was "protestant".

No, but it was well implied.

“They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics..."

Johnmb

galactus wrote:

I for one agree with him on that point (the other points he made are, of course, factually incorrect).

Time for that apology Ireland.

I wonder if Switzerland offered condolences to Germany after Hitler's death...

They most likely did. I seem to remember that Ireland was the first country to do so, which would imply that there were others. On that aspect, Ireland has nothing to apologise for. We were not at war with Germany, and therefore had no excuse not to follow protocol.

joolsveer

I think that racism, sectarianism, antisemitism are all parts of the same disease whether it is practiced by catholics, protestants, jews, moslems, those of other religions, colours or creeds. Mary McAleese was making a similar point IMO.
You don't have to be a white to be a racist just as you don't have to be a protestant to be sectarian.

Horeb-Security

Horeb-Security wrote:

Durkan defends President in Holocaust row
28/01/2005 - 11:35:21


Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process.

I think she was referring to the type of people who spat at Catholic school children on their way to school in North Belfast.
In that sense she was refering to some protestants not all.

The likes of those guys have the same warped view of their religion as AlQueda have of theirs.

Johnmb

joolsveer wrote:

I think that racism, sectarianism, antisemitism is all part of the same disease whether it is practiced by catholics, protestants, jews, moslems, those of other religions, colours or creeds. Mary McAleese was making a similar point IMO.

I agree. Her main problem was that she mentioned one side of the situation in Northern Ireland. She either should have just made a very general comment that could be applied to both sides, or mentioned both sides. But if it was an interview, she probably didn't have much time to think of every possible way of wording it, and came out with what she said. But a little common sense, and the context, would suggest that she wasn't singling out any one group.

Hobbes

galactus wrote:

Unbalanced but a fair point. I think most right-minded people will accept that we transmit our prejudices to our kids.

She should have added some comments to the effect that there existed/exists "an irrational hatred of Protestants"

Exactly. Both sides were pretty much up to the same thing.

vorbis

its not that bad a comment. In fact its quite true. Just needed the balance of a comment referring to the catholics irrational fear of protestants

bbbaldy

I think this is another example of the media blowing things out of proportion and making a story bigger than it actually is.
Does anybody out there actually think that her intention was to single out the protestants in NI as racists/bigots. If I remember correctly she said 'For example catholics', we all know that the hatred worked both ways, are people trying to say that she does not think so.
People who think this are in my opinion dramatising a bad choice of words in a speech whos intention was to highlight racial hatred in the world today.

ionapaul

At the same time, it was ill-advised considering the current climate

pollyantic

I have an irrational fear of protestants. All those years as a child listening to PAisely have fu**ed me up.

Seriously though i think she's right on the money.
It does indeed cut both ways though.

ionapaul

Considering she is seen by most Northern Protestants as representing the Catholics in NI more than the Protestants, her omission of mentioning the Catholic fear / hatred of Protestants smacks of one-sidedness to them.

I'm not a fan of our current President and her lack of wisdom in this instance adds to my low level of regard for her.

mr_angry

I agree. It was an unbalanced comment, but I think the reaction of people calling for her resignation and saying this will kill off the peace process is totally disproportionate. Get a grip.

gurramok

Well, the orange order have marches that celebrate protestant supremacy over catholics similar to nazi marches that hate jews. Again some protestants not all.
All the president did was speak the truth, she is from there so she would know what it was like growing up in the cauldron of hatred.

gandalf

Looks like she will have to build a new bridge eh :rolleyes:

simu

She really should have been more careful with her wording. Also, has she never heard of Godwin's law?

Kingsize

i think the point she was trying to make & its a very valid one usually ignored is that the nazis "success" (for want of a better phrase) was based on the complicity of ordinary people who had come around to this way of thinking, i think that she was really trying to point out that there is every possibility it could happen again right now in any number of places in the world.she might not have hit the nail on the head but i hope thats what she was saying.
incedentally I am reminded of footage i seen somewhere of national front skinheads doing nazi salutes while carrying pictures of Ian paisley back in the 70's.

the nazis hadnt got a monopoly on bigotry but nobody wants to report on that,better to leave it as the good guys versus the bad.

MG

Horeb-Security wrote:

“They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of Catholics, in the same way that people give to their children an outrageous and irrational hatred of those who are of different colour and all of those things.”

I would just like to point out what she ACTUALLY said:

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of FOR EXAMPLE Catholics"

I think therefore that she meant it to apply equally to both sides but just gave the example of one side, which in the context of the rest is clearly what she was saying. It was clumbsy but it was not directly exclusively at Protestants.

And by the way I'm not sure if she says "hatred of for example Catholics" or "hatred, for example, Catholics", which could imply that it was the Catholics teaching their children to hate.

LISTEN TO WHAT SHE ACTUALLY SAID!

Boggle

Whats the problem? She was right... People are still teaching their kids to hate others based on their own prejudices. Stop moaning and bitching about the fuppin EXAMPLES she gave and instead be glad she was willing to highlight this fact...

The paisley boys are just bitchin to get on telly and should summarily be shot for the open biggotry they display .... and the same should be said for any SF members preaching anti protestant hysterics.

simu

MG wrote:

I would just like to point out what she ACTUALLY said:

"They gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children an irrational hatred of FOR EXAMPLE Catholics"

I think therefore that she meant it to apply equally to both sides but just gave the example of one side, which in the context of the rest is clearly what she was saying. It was clumbsy but it was not directly exclusively at Protestants.

And by the way I'm not sure she says "hatred of for example Catholics" or "hatred, for example, Catholics", which could imply that it was the Catholics teaching their children to hate.

LISTEN TO WHAT SHE ACTUALLY SAID!

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

galactus

Boggle wrote:

...The paisley boys are just bitchin to get on telly and should summarily be shot for the open biggotry they display...

Way to kick-start the Peace process, Boggle.

//sings: Are you George Bush in disguise?

Boggle

Just call me Wubya!!

At least I wouldn't have to listen to them wingin!!...

Johnmb

simu wrote:

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

Well by the looks of it, she didn't make a slip up, the media simply edited what she said in order to create a story. She can hardly be blamed for bad journalism on the part of the media.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

MG

simu wrote:

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

Agreed.

galactus

simu wrote:

Yes, but she knows well that some unionists are waiting to pounce on her every word so she should have been clearer and left no room for any sort of ambiguity. I'm amazed an experienced speaker could make such a slip-up.

Well put. Fancy running for President?

landser

Horeb-Security wrote:

I would for one if I was in power look for her resignation as less has caused wars in the past.

And for one she is not Irish as she is from Northern Ireland and hence should not hold office.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

WARS!!!!???? between who?? well, maybe, but only between tin pot dictatorships. bit of reality here pls.

further, she is irish, whether you accept that or not. even if she wasn't irish, how would that preclude her from holding office??? do you know something about irish law that no one else does.

finally, what she said was true, but she should have put a bit of balance in it, in case sensibilities were hurt and they got all upset.

Big Ears

sounds a bit 'honk if you hate complaining' , if you know what I mean .

sceptre

simu wrote:

Also, has she never heard of Godwin's law?

Does Godwin's Law apply when Nazis are part of the original basis for making comments in the first place?

(in other words, comparing group X to Nazis when you were supposed to be talking about Nazis?)

impr0v

The media have always expected McAleese to slip up in some way in regard to the North, didn't someone refer to her as a liability due to her tribal background or something similar. I suspect that this, and of course the current difficulties with the process, are why this is being exaggerated to the extent it is.

mike65

I'm dissapointed with her, she did'nt have to draw an comparison in the first place and that she did so in a one-sided fashion betrays her mind-set.

Also she did her damdest not to comment directly on De Valeras' actions signing the book of condolences for Adolf Hitler, she was asked about 3 times to speak but danced around it. Its an interview she proberly should'nt have carried out.

Mike.

arcadegame2004

Being a Protestant I despise these comments and she should apologise to the entire protestant commnuity as it is disgusting and to me is another nail in the coffin for the peace process.

I would for one if I was in power look for her resignation as less has caused wars in the past.

And for one she is not Irish as she is from Northern Ireland and hence should not hold office.

She IS Irish. Read the Irish Constitution, which states that anyone born on the island of a parent born on the island is entitled to be part of the Irish nation. She is NOT British. The subject peoples of empires do not become the nationality of their rulers.

She was NOT calling the Protestants Nazis. I am really fed up of kneejerk reactions from the Unionists. President McAleese was simply making the point that some Protestants in NI brought their children up to hate Catholics. Can you seriously deny that this is the case, in the statelet where the first NI PM said that 'we are a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people' and where the 2nd one, Lord Brookeborough said "I recommend those who are Loyalist not to employ Roman Catholics, 95% of whom are disloyal"?

I think comparing this bigotry in NI to the Nazis is over the top. But I don't really think she was doing that. She was simply condemning all sorts of bigotry. She was not saying that all the bigots involved go to the same lengths or that their hatreds are as extreme. But being the Unionists, Big Ian etc. have to jump to conclusions and interpret the remarks of the Irish Head of State in the most offensive connotation possible. Maybe it's just that the truth hurts?

Although I would not compare Unionist bigotry towards Catholics (which I accept is far less than once was) to Nazism, I make no apologies for making comparisons with the US Deep South and its treatment of blacks until the 1960's, for that is a correct comparison with similar devices having been used to stop Catholics voting as were used against blacks e.g. poll-taxes, gerrymandering with the 75% Catholic population of Derry made a minority on their own city council for decades.

pete

President Mary McAleese has this evening clarified remarks made in an interview yesterday which were seen by the Orange Order as a slur on the Protestant community of Northern Ireland.

On RTÉ Radio, Mrs McAleese acknowledged that she had been clumsy in trying to make the point that people should try to end the legacy of sectarianism on both sides.

She said she was devastated by the response to her remarks and expressed regret for not fully explaining herself. She added that she was deeply sorry for the hurt caused.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0128/mcaleese.html

true

It surely must go down as the insult of the century. She has insulted not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism ) , Jews, and those of all creeds who fought Nazism.

She did say "Protestants", NOT "some Protestants".

Imagine the outcry there would be if the head of another state, or even Queen Elizabeth, said that Irish Catholics bring up their children to hate Protestants, in the same way Nazis despised Jews.

On top of DeValeras blunders, on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin, it is all a bit much. Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received. She ( Mrs McAleese ) is supposed to represent all the people, to be above politics. As a taxpayer in the Irish republic, I demand her resignation.

Teneka

Yes True, the Jews were the only ones involved in WWII. :rolleyes:

true

Teneka wrote:

Yes True, the Jews were the only ones involved in WWII. :rolleyes:

I never said or even suggested that Jews were the only ones involved in WW2.
What do you mean, Teneka ?

alleepally

true wrote:

It surely must go down as the insult of the century. She has insulted not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism ) , Jews, and those of all creeds who fought Nazism.

Are there statistics available on the number of Catholics v Protestants who fought in the war???? DOES IT MATTER????? NOOOOOO. So what is your point?

true wrote:

Imagine the outcry there would be if the head of another state, or even Queen Elizabeth, said that Irish Catholics bring up their children to hate Protestants, in the same way Nazis despised Jews.

WHat, are you talking north or south? I think the Catholics of the North might of had reason to hate Protestants given they were treated as second class citizens for so long.

true wrote:

On top of DeValeras blunders, on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin, it is all a bit much. Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received. She ( Mrs McAleese ) is supposed to represent all the people, to be above politics. As a taxpayer in the Irish republic, I demand her resignation.

Can you expand on your statement that Protestants know a little bit about genocide?

YOU DEMAND HER RESIGNATION???? Tell you what, go find some real issue to get stirred up about in the world and cop the fcuk on. She's apologised now, what more do you want???

Rezmuter Duane

not only Protestants ( who did at least their fair bit in ridding Europe of Nazism )

Whats that, if not a sectarian insult?

On top of DeValeras blunders, on top of the statue to the IRA Nazi collaborator Russell which is located in a public place in Dublin, it is all a bit much.

In St. Stephens Green, there is a fountain from the German people, to the Irish people, with inscriptions in Irish, English and German, thanking the Irish people for their solidarity. Also until 1990, the national colour of Germany was green, in recognition of the fact that we didn't criminalise the German people for what their leader had done.

Protestants in Ireland too know a little bit about some of the treatments the Jews received

They know all about it all right, how to inflict it on others. The Orange Order marches do nothing but incite and instill more hatred in people. No side is blameless. However, the audacity of the DUP. A precious photo stopped them from taking the gun out of politics. Or rather, they placed the obstacle that kept it there.

Mary Mc Aleese made a statement citing an EXAMPLE. Can you deny that this is AN example? Is it not true that there was, and still is some "irrational hatred"?

May she serve her term in the knowledge that she is one of the great figures in modern Irish politics.

billy the squid

Her comments reminded me of the incitement of the redemptorist order in Limerick against the Jews at the turn of the 20th century..

I also found it odd that she failed to mention the deep rooted hatred of prodestants passed down from generation to generation of catholics in the north.

As for her comments on whether or not De Valera should have signed the book of condolences for Adolf Hitler. I thought the president of this country was prohibited from commenting on decisions made by the taoseach (sp)

pete

uhhh guys... http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2318612&postcount=43

true

QUOTE=alleepally "Are there statistics available on the number of Catholics v Protestants who fought in the war???? DOES IT MATTER????? NOOOOOO. So what is your point?"

It does not matter (AND NOOOOO NEEEDD TOOO SHOOOUT ). She compared the people in N. Ireland, the Protestants in N.I. to the Nazi, which is ironic in that at least N. Ireland took part in the war. I know a higher percentage of Protestants than Catholics fought facism , so why does she single out the Protestants to be like the Nazi in their upbringing of children / despiction of others ? Oh, she thinks Catholics never indoctrinate their children like all the Proddies do.


Quote "WHat, are you talking north or south? I think the Catholics of the North might of had reason to hate Protestants given they were treated as second class citizens for so long"[/I]

Am I talking north or south about what ? You think "the Catholics" of the North might of had reason to hate ALL Protestants ? You make the same mistake as McAlesse. Not all Northern Catholics would agree with you that they were treated as second class citizens for so long. There was one Catholic from west Belfast, who joined the British army, earned a VC for his exceptional bravery, and the only second class treatment he received was from some of the hardline catholics in west Belfast when he came home after the war.


Quote "Can you expand on your statement that Protestants know a little bit about genocide?"

You misquoted me, I never said Protestants know a little bit about genocide. Learn to read.



Quote "[B]YOU DEMAND HER RESIGNATION???? Tell you what, go find some real issue to get stirred up about in the world and cop the fcuk on. She's apologised now, what more do you want???/"

She has just apologised this evening, better late than never. She touched a raw nerve and added insult to injury by comparing a minority to the Nazi, especially with Irelands track record. Her sectarian remark is ill fitting for a President.
I was with some continental friends this evening and they could not believe it.
As regards you bad language attempt, minorities in Ireland have been intimidated with worse.