Body found Inch strand Cork

seamus · 18-01-2005 01:55PM

If you think so.

I'm sorry if any CIT people were offended by my light-hearted, non-serious remark. Now, back on-topic.

Trojan · 18-01-2005 02:07PM

As an IT graduate (but not from Cork), I am highly offended by Seamus' insinuation that I am not as intelligent as Trinity graduates.

jank wrote:

You can draw your own conclusions on how it may piss others off that may not share your aparent sense of humour

You might do well to remember that others may not share your opinions. This is a serious topic, and a very sad tale. That does not mean that we should abandon all light-hearted banter and jokes. Life would be a very tedious occupation should we do so. Sometimes it's good for us to have a chuckle when there is sadness all around.

ageary2003 · 18-01-2005 03:27PM

I read in the examiner yesterday that "chillingly" the killer was at the funeral. To me it sounds more like the guy remorseful and sorry for what he did. The press seems to be making him out to be a guy who just thought he would kill the kid for fun. The thing that scares me is that this situation could be you or i. Its easy to get pissed off at kids (esp if he did have ADD) and the child could have done somthing extremly stupid (like throwing a rock at the car), somebody wouldnt have to be a physco to kill a week kid in a situation like that . That being said, he should have taken the kid straight to hospital instead of dumping him horribly like that.

embee · 18-01-2005 04:25PM

People have been saying that this 20 year old called the police voluntarily and handed himself over without protest, which in some peoples eyes was the right thing to do. Having said that, there has to be something inherently awry with someones thought process who thought that the right thing to do after accidentally suffocating a young boy was to dump his body in the middle of nowhere and then only step forward as the perpetrator when the body had been found. One can only imagine the sense of panic and guilt that he must have felt, and the agonising guilt too.The chap hasn't done himself any favours whatsoever, but in a way, I feel sorry for him. If it really was horseplay that went tragically wrong, he is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life, as will his family and the family of Robert Holohan. I only hope that Roberts family garner some comfort in the fact that their son apparently wasn't set upon by a paedophile,sexually abused, then brutally murdered and left for dead.

Its an awful, awful case that could so easily have been avoided.

Trojan · 18-01-2005 04:41PM

I dunno embee, it's hard to imagine what kind of thoughts were going through his mind at the time. Panic, guilt, shame could make a normally rational person do some strange things. I don't think it's fair for people to continue to call him monstrous for his actions (assuming that he is guilty, which by law, he is not yet proven to be).

Like you, I feel very sorry for the poor kid (the 20 year old kid) as well as Robert and Roberts family.

Cactus Col · 18-01-2005 04:57PM

Just curious to know who the second body was (the one in midleton) and how he died?

E@gle. · 18-01-2005 05:05PM

Cactus Col wrote:

Just curious to know who the second body was (the one in midleton) and how he died?

There dosent seem to be much infomation about that. i havent heard anything.

Snapper1 · 18-01-2005 05:43PM

Heard somewhere that it was a psychiatric patient who commited suicide. Don't know the circumstances surrounding the death so I'm free to be corrected.

embee · 18-01-2005 07:08PM

I absolutely agree with you on that, Trojan. I think it's pretty irresponsible of the media to continue to brandish the young man a monster. It has become increasingly clear that this was a tragic accident, so to call him a monster is to insinuate that he meant to kill him, and I really don't feel that that is the case.

I wish the media would just leave the families involved to grieve and come to terms with what has happened, but I can't see that happening somehow.

ageary2003 · 18-01-2005 08:29PM

Apparently the second man was not long out of hospital and wasn`t very well, apparently he was a nice man, pity his death was so over shadowed. serverly doubt he was a physicatric patient though

RebelRockChick · 18-01-2005 08:55PM

ageary2003 wrote:

I read in the examiner yesterday that "chillingly" the killer was at the funeral. To me it sounds more like the guy remorseful and sorry for what he did.

Not only was he at the funeral but he was also out searching for Robert! I also heard he went to the Holohans house to comfort them!

It was an accident. He was friends with Robert. I heard that Robert wanted to go to McDonalds and he wouldn't take him and started throwing stones at his car and he got mad with him, but then again there are so many rumours going around, especially here in Midleton, it's hard to believe what some people say. Then some of the newspapers seem to print stuff thats not even true!

As for the other body found in town, he was a guy who went to the local day center. he was harmless! He had just been with his own family a few hours before.

Bogger77 · 18-01-2005 11:34PM

embee wrote:

I absolutely agree with you on that, Trojan. I think it's pretty irresponsible of the media to continue to brandish the young man a monster. It has become increasingly clear that this was a tragic accident, so to call him a monster is to insinuate that he meant to kill him, and I really don't feel that that is the case.
.

He's a monster, cos he drove over 10miles, through Midleton and probably through Cloyne, to dump the body at the edge of beach. Act of a sane person, I'd have to say yes, he took care to choose the place, and to place the black plastic over the body.

He may not have planned to kill the wee lad, lets remember he was 11, it doesn't matter if he had ADD, but he definitely took time in planning the disposal of a body. I know the area fairly well, and it's a fair trek to Inch.

He killed him, he took the body in a vehicle a good distance from where he killed him, he dumped the body in a very remote area, he tried to hide the body, he pretended to search for him, he didn't come forward and hold his hands up and say he did it. Sounds a lot like Ian Huntley?

If the person charged with the murder/man slaughter did commit the crime, he deserves everything and more of what the law can throw at him.

Bogger77 · 18-01-2005 11:38PM

ageary2003 wrote:

I read in the examiner yesterday that "chillingly" the killer was at the funeral. To me it sounds more like the guy remorseful and sorry for what he did. The press seems to be making him out to be a guy who just thought he would kill the kid for fun.

It was all part of his charade, at being the concerned neighbour,in my opinion.

nlgbbbblth · 19-01-2005 12:41AM

MojoMaker wrote:

You know the kid had ADD right? A real handful by all accounts. Not beyond the realm of possibility that horseplay with someone like that could easily have got tragically out of hand.

ADD?
"a real handful"?

was these two (possibly unsubstantiated - I don't know) facts reported in the media?

if not, why not?

surely the media would be better reporting facts as opposed to speculating about "monsters"?

embee · 19-01-2005 12:50AM

Bogger77 wrote:

He's a monster, cos he drove over 10miles, through Midleton and probably through Cloyne, to dump the body at the edge of beach. Act of a sane person, I'd have to say yes, he took care to choose the place, and to place the black plastic over the body.

He may not have planned to kill the wee lad, lets remember he was 11, it doesn't matter if he had ADD, but he definitely took time in planning the disposal of a body. I know the area fairly well, and it's a fair trek to Inch.

He killed him, he took the body in a vehicle a good distance from where he killed him, he dumped the body in a very remote area, he tried to hide the body, he pretended to search for him, he didn't come forward and hold his hands up and say he did it. Sounds a lot like Ian Huntley?

If the person charged with the murder/man slaughter did commit the crime, he deserves everything and more of what the law can throw at him.

He is not a monster. If you are speeding, and crash into someone and kill them, does it make you a monster? I wouldn't have said so. Roberts death was a tragic accident. The key word there being accident. I don't know how you can say that it sounds like Ian Huntley. There is a vast difference between a young man who accidentally kills a young boy and then, in the actions of someone who was panicked and not thinking straight, dumped the body. Everyone agrees that, when Robert died, the person responsible should have contacted the Gardaí, or brought him to a hospital. He didn't, but I don't think that makes him a monster. He dumped the body, and he shouldn't have done that, but he did give himself up. At the end of the day, he did the best thing for everyone involved, especially Roberts family. They no longer will have to wonder about Roberts last hours and how much pain he may have gone through. Ian Huntley, on the other hand, lured Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman into his house, murdered them both (and very possibly sexually abused them before or even after killing them), then went on television to speak about how terrible their disappearance was. He then cut the clothes off their bodies, brought them to an isolated spot, and tried to set their bodies alight to destroy any forensic evidence. When he returned to his home, he then went on a cleaning spree to hide further evidence in the house. He did not voluntarily come to the police and say that he had killed the girls. He still to this day maintains his innocence. He also had a history of inappropriate sexual behaviour with underage women and (if I remember correctly) was charged at one stage with rape. I just don't equate what has happened in Midleton to the actions of Ian Huntley, because I believe that when Huntley brought those girls into his house, he knew that he was going to kill them. What happened to Robert was awful, but he wasn't murdered. He died as a result of an accident, and I certainly wouldn't call his killer a monster. I would say he made a ferociously terrible decision in dumping Roberts body, but I don't think a person should be condemned from a height for accidentally killing someone.

seamus · 19-01-2005 11:57AM

nlgbbbblth wrote:

ADD?
"a real handful"?

was these two (possibly unsubstantiated - I don't know) facts reported in the media?

if not, why not?

surely the media would be better reporting facts as opposed to speculating about "monsters"?

You'd think so. The media is no longer interested in facts though. RTE news and The Irish Times are about the only two things I would now use for news, if for some reason I wasn't online.

Great post embee.

daveirl · 21-01-2005 12:18PM

This post has been deleted.

eirebhoy · 21-01-2005 07:26PM

RebelRockChick wrote:

It was an accident. He was friends with Robert. I heard that Robert wanted to go to McDonalds and he wouldn't take him and started throwing stones at his car and he got mad with him, but then again there are so many rumours going around, especially here in Midleton, it's hard to believe what some people say. Then some of the newspapers seem to print stuff thats not even true!

Thats what I heard except for the "mad" bit, he would have been most likely horseplaying. My mam seems certain thats what the accused said happened and he's now under suicide watch and has got death threats in prison.

Fast_Mover · 21-01-2005 07:35PM

listen to yerselfs!!!!
can you say for certain that if you were in the same postion you wud have not acted the same way.......u dont know what your capable of!who are any of us to judge him...."he without sin cast the first stone"
he is 20yrs of age....he panicked, hes young and just did the wrong thing and going to pay for it the rest of his life!!
his life is already ruined even if he didnt get jail time! he does not belong in jail....hes scared, wouldnt we all!

yes it was tragic thing that happened.....an unfortunate accident!
how hard do you think it would have being for him to go to the funeral....i cudnt imagine...poor thing!

Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 07:57PM

Fast_Mover wrote:

yes it was tragic thing that happened.....an unfortunate accident!
how hard do you think it would have being for him to go to the funeral....i cudnt imagine...poor thing!

How hard was it for Roberts parents and family not to know what had happened to him for over a week?

Get real, will ye, the bleeding hearts on display here is sickening. Lets face the facts, Robert died*, his body was dumped into a jeep/van/car and dumped at Inch Strand, and then hidden by the person responsible for his death, who then pretended to search for him, held a charade for a week, went to the funeral as a concerned neighbour, and then, admitted to his parents/police what he'd done, only after he'd be identified by fingerprints. Sympathy for him? No, he deserves everything he gets from the legal system for the torture he placed Roberts parents under.

*edited

Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 08:04PM

Fast_Mover wrote:

his life is already ruined even if he didnt get jail time! he does not belong in jail....hes scared, wouldnt we all!

yes it was tragic thing that happened.....an unfortunate accident!
how hard do you think it would have being for him to go to the funeral....i cudnt imagine...poor thing!

1 ) Yes, he belongs in jail, and for a long time. Not for the accidental death, if was accidental, I'll leave it for the judge to decide, but for the torture he put the parents through and the abuse of the body, dumping it at the edge of trackway, where all the animals could get at it. It took dental records to positively ID the body. I've know parents who've had to ID bodies of their kids that have been out in the elements for a long period, I'm sure it's something they'll have nightmares about for the rest of their lives.

2 ) He's scared, awwh, the poor ickle fella. He was brave enough picking on an 11yr old boy, almost half he's age, and a good bit smaller and weaker than him.

Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 08:14PM

embee wrote:

He is not a monster. If you are speeding, and crash into someone and kill them, does it make you a monster? I wouldn't have said so. Roberts death was a tragic accident. The key word there being accident. I don't know how you can say that it sounds like Ian Huntley. There is a vast difference between a young man who accidentally kills a young boy and then, in the actions of someone who was panicked and not thinking straight, dumped the body. Everyone agrees that, when Robert died, the person responsible should have contacted the Gardaí, or brought him to a hospital. He didn't, but I don't think that makes him a monster. He dumped the body, and he shouldn't have done that, but he did give himself up. At the end of the day, he did the best thing for everyone involved, especially Roberts family. They no longer will have to wonder about Roberts last hours and how much pain he may have gone through. Ian Huntley, on the other hand, lured Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman into his house, murdered them both (and very possibly sexually abused them before or even after killing them), then went on television to speak about how terrible their disappearance was. He then cut the clothes off their bodies, brought them to an isolated spot, and tried to set their bodies alight to destroy any forensic evidence. When he returned to his home, he then went on a cleaning spree to hide further evidence in the house. He did not voluntarily come to the police and say that he had killed the girls. He still to this day maintains his innocence. He also had a history of inappropriate sexual behaviour with underage women and (if I remember correctly) was charged at one stage with rape. I just don't equate what has happened in Midleton to the actions of Ian Huntley, because I believe that when Huntley brought those girls into his house, he knew that he was going to kill them. What happened to Robert was awful, but he wasn't murdered. He died as a result of an accident, and I certainly wouldn't call his killer a monster. I would say he made a ferociously terrible decision in dumping Roberts body, but I don't think a person should be condemned from a height for accidentally killing someone.

1) Embee, if you knock someone down cos you were speeding, would a) call 999 for ambulance, and offer assistance, or b) get out, push the body off the road, wipe your hands and do a runner?
Cos B is what is alleged to have occurred

2 ) I wasn't linking the nature of the "murder", more the actions afterwards, i.e. hiding bodies, pretending to be concerned etc. The whole charade.

3 ) I'd not condemn a person for accidentally injuring someone causing death, but this is different, it's the actions after the fact that I despise. No medical attention was sought, there's doctors less than 5 mins from there, straight in the Mill road, even the fire station, the guys there would have first aid experience. Nope this guy made sure that Robert hadn't a chance of resuscitation and made a calculated decision to get rid of the evidence.

4 ) from what I've been told, the evidence was found against him, before he'd admitted it.

daveirl · 21-01-2005 08:22PM

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Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 08:39PM

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

It's not understandable for me, I can't accept that what he did was understandable, if he was under some much stress and shocked, surely he'd have dumped the body over the nearest ditch, or hit it with the vehicle and make it look like a traffic RTA, or having thought clearly enough to bring the remains to Inch why did he hide the body, surely the irrational action would have been to throw it into the sea?

My problem, is with what the guy did after the death, he, to my mind, acted with full use of his sanity, and did what was calculated to ensure his best chance of not being discovered.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

I said, and I'll repeat it, The person who dumped the body, we can assume it's the person charged with the crime, if you want, deserves everything the Legal system can throw at him, now where have I condoned lynching? I was ultra careful when I orginally posted it to make sure it read legal system, not mob rule.

Everyone makes mistakes, some people will unfortunately be responsible for others deaths, as results of accidents. Some people, will cause the deaths of neighbours and people they know. How many people would stoop this guys alleged actions?

embee · 21-01-2005 08:47PM

Bogger77 wrote:

1) Embee, if you knock someone down cos you were speeding, would a) call 999 for ambulance, and offer assistance, or b) get out, push the body off the road, wipe your hands and do a runner?
Cos B is what is alleged to have occurred

2 ) I wasn't linking the nature of the "murder", more the actions afterwards, i.e. hiding bodies, pretending to be concerned etc. The whole charade.

3 ) I'd not condemn a person for accidentally injuring someone causing death, but this is different, it's the actions after the fact that I despise. No medical attention was sought, there's doctors less than 5 mins from there, straight in the Mill road, even the fire station, the guys there would have first aid experience. Nope this guy made sure that Robert hadn't a chance of resuscitation and made a calculated decision to get rid of the evidence.

4 ) from what I've been told, the evidence was found against him, before he'd admitted it.

Okay, well on your first point, you say that its Scenario B rather than A thats happened here, in your opinion. Driving away from the scene of a crime in that instance is wrong, but it STILL does not equate to murder.

You said in your original post that I replied to initially :

He killed him, he took the body in a vehicle a good distance from where he killed him, he dumped the body in a very remote area, he tried to hide the body, he pretended to search for him, he didn't come forward and hold his hands up and say he did it. Sounds a lot like Ian Huntley?

No, not really. All that both cases have in common is the dumping of the body. He didn't take Roberts clothes off, didn't remove Roberts mobile phone from the body, he didn't attempt to set fire to the body or the clothes, he did telephone the police off his own back and only after he telephoned them was he arrested.

You have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims that he made sure there was no chance of resuscitation, that he made a calculated decision to move and hide Roberts body. You don't know that he didn't attempt CPR. None of us do. His decision to hide the body wasn't calculated, otherwise I don't think he would ever have come forward to the police himself. His decision was one made in panic, in haste and in guilt.

What exactly is it that you have been told? Have you got some source inside the Garda investigation? I very much doubt that, and I think that you are going on what information you pick up on the news and/or grapevine. All news agencies have reported that the young man made first contact with the Gardai, and gave himself over without any incident.

I re-iterate my assertion that it was an accident, and the young man is NOT a monster. Hes a young man who made a terrible mistake.

edit : On the issue of Robert being identified through dental records, I read in one of the Sunday papers last weekend that that was done by request of the family, rather than see him. It is pretty implausible that a body who had been left out for only seven days, and in cold weather, would not have been severely decomposed to the extent that a positive identification from just looking at him wouldn't have been impossible.

Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 09:06PM

embee wrote:

You have absolutely no evidence to back up your claims that he made sure there was no chance of resuscitation, that he made a calculated decision to move and hide Roberts body. You don't know that he didn't attempt CPR. None of us do. His decision to hide the body wasn't calculated, otherwise I don't think he would ever have come forward to the police himself. His decision was one made in panic, in haste and in guilt.

There was no chance of recusitation, can't see how a body dumped for over week can be. My point is, his actions, ensured that there was no chance for recus. There was at least one mobile fone present, as you said Roberts, even with no credit (even no SIM) 999 or 112 can always be dialled.

Pulling a plastic sheet over the body? The choice of that particular area, have you been around that part of east cork, from whitegate to ballycotton? He picked pretty much the most isolated place to do it, I can only think of a couple of more isolated places close to a road in that area.

You can't say made in haste, its a good 25 minute drive, passing through Midleton, passing close by the garda station, to Inch from Ballyedmond, and at that time of day, would take even longer.

Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 09:18PM

embee wrote:

I re-iterate my assertion that it was an accident, and the young man is NOT a monster. Hes a young man who made a terrible mistake.

And I'll stick to my position, that's he's a young man who, alledgedly after accidently killing his 11yr old neighbour, caused unknown torment, pain and grief to that young kid's family by callously dumping the remains, and only admitted guilt when faced with the fact that the cops had his fingerprints (he gave them a sample, they had clean prints on the bike and the sheet, he knew he was done for). His inaction, in coming forward, prolonged the agony for Roberts family, he did nothing to relieve this, all it would have taken was two words on a piece of paper dropped into the cop shop, or even just left in the confessional box of the church. If he wanted, he could have helped the body be found sooner.

I'm supposed to have sympathy for this guy? Sorry, not in my books. Can I understand what he did? No, if he was so innocent (it being an accident) why did he feel the need to hide?

I can forgive many crimes, murder among them, I can't forgive the mental torture he inflicted.

And he's on sucide watch? Oh well, that's a pity.
and as for receiving death threats, I don't believe in mob rule, let the courts decide.

Fast_Mover · 21-01-2005 10:47PM

And he's on sucide watch? Oh well, that's a pity.

Thats just low and nasty...! :mad:

I can forgive many crimes, murder among them, I can't forgive the mental torture he inflicted.

so your saying the people who commit murder do not inflict any mental torture onto the deceased families at all, the families can just forget it straight away+feel nothing! ha! And you can forgive a person who did this and if it was premeditated?! ur conterdicting yourself there!

i understand that u and other people have your opinions and entitled to them even if they may differ from mine and others but il respect them in the same way i hope you'd respect mine!

Bogger77 · 21-01-2005 11:14PM

Fast_Mover wrote:

Thats just low and nasty...! :mad:

sorry, but that's the way I feel, this guys been a coward and ran from his actions already, and suicide would be the same. An easy get out of facing up to his actions.

Fast_Mover wrote:

so your saying the people who commit murder do not inflict any mental torture onto the deceased families at all, the families can just forget it straight away+feel nothing! ha! And you can forgive a person who did this and if it was premeditated?! ur conterdicting yourself there!

this was not premeditated murder, so why switch topics to planned murder?

I'd forgive some one who killed someone accidentally and admits his guilt, and tries to help the victim. Any more is between him and his god, once society (judge, jury and the victims family) has decided his fate. The loss of any family member is hard, even more so if it's sudden. The extra un-necessary pain caused to the family by having no body, no idea if the missing child/person is alive or dead, that is what I'd never forgive

I've the same respect for this guy, as I have for the guys who buried Jean McConville in Louth, and the others who were buried in unmarked graves. Murder is a brutal crime, but not letting the families have a body to bury, and a place to mourn is just as bad. Roberts family, now have to deal with that, grieving never ends, esp. when some young dies suddenly. It doesn't matter if they died by their own hands, knocked down by a car or from a heart attack. There's always the what if's, the if I'd done something different. That don't fade with time, I know, I lost a close family member, through suicide, when he was 16.

Fast_Mover wrote:

i understand that u and other people have your opinions and entitled to them even if they may differ from mine and others but il respect them in the same way i hope you'd respect mine!

Indeed, I think the only area we disagree over is that I can see no redeeming features for the accused. The only victims, in my opinion, are the deceased and his family.

embee · 22-01-2005 05:21AM

Bogger77 wrote:

There was no chance of recusitation, can't see how a body dumped for over week can be. My point is, his actions, ensured that there was no chance for recus. There was at least one mobile fone present, as you said Roberts, even with no credit (even no SIM) 999 or 112 can always be dialled.

Pulling a plastic sheet over the body? The choice of that particular area, have you been around that part of east cork, from whitegate to ballycotton? He picked pretty much the most isolated place to do it, I can only think of a couple of more isolated places close to a road in that area.

You can't say made in haste, its a good 25 minute drive, passing through Midleton, passing close by the garda station, to Inch from Ballyedmond, and at that time of day, would take even longer.

Sigh.

When I said that we don't know if he tried to resuscitate the boy, I hardly meant that he went out to the body days later to try and do it. I meant that he may very well have attempted some sort of CPR at the moment he realised that, in the midst of the horseplay, Robert wasn't breathing and had no pulse. We will never know. I still stand by my assumption that he panicked, possibly figured if he called the police he would never be believed and made the hasty decision to bring Roberts body away. And I can say made in haste, because I wasn't referring to the length of time it takes to drive from Point A to Point B. I am talking about the hasty thought process that must have flitted through his mind. It doesn't take 25 minutes to make a rash decision. Anyone who has ever made any sort of bad decision in their lives will tell you that, nine times out of ten, it was made quickly and without thinking it fully through. The choice of the area to bring the body - it was quiet, it was isolated. He hardly thought to himself "I'll bring the body to a roundabout in the middle of Midleton town and dump it there so dozens of people will see me". He may have thought, in his panic and desperation, I have to go where he won't be found. I'm not condoning it, but thats possibly what he thought. Get rid of the body, assuage the guilt that was washing over him, hope that he's never found, try to convince himself that he would forget about things. But he didn't, and he called the police and turned himself in.

On Jean McConville - She was murdered. Robert Holohan was not.

Could you really forgive any murderer? Anyone who commits murder is going to inflict some degree of mental torture on some living person. Anyone. So, how can you forgive a murder, but not accidental death? The outcome is the same. Someone has taken a life, and inflicted mental anguish on their family.

However, one is cold blooded murder, and one is just a tragic accident. And, argue as you might, but there is a world of difference between the two.

Body found Inch strand Cork

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