[Article] CIE fares set to rise in new year

ixoy · 16-12-2004 09:33AM #1

*Sigh* Here we go url="http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=65347"]link[/url:

The Government has approved a range of fare increases for CIÉ that will see the cost of basic bus and DART journeys in Dublin rise by 5 cent in the new year.

Some fares are likely to rise by more than that in a round of "inflationary" increases in the cost of public transport next year that may be published today.

The increases for commuters and other travellers will be the latest in a long line of price rises for basic services, with electricity, health and motor fuel costs also on the rise.

Sanctioned by the Cabinet on Tuesday, the CIÉ fare increases follow newly-released figures last week which indicated that the annual inflation rate was at its highest level in more than a year when it rose to 2.9 per cent last month.

Sources said the fare changes cleared by the Government will increase the average cost of CIÉ's bus and rail services by some 3.5 per cent next year. This is less than half the average rise of 8 per cent that the State transport company sought last month in a submission that stressed its increasing fuel bill and the loss of business due to the introduction of the Luas.

However, the Minister for Transport, Mr Cullen, is understood to have regarded the initial proposal from CIÉ as "excessive".

Householders are already facing a 3.5 per cent rise in electricity prices in the new year. This latest rise, approved by the energy regulator, comes only three months after a 9 per cent rise in electricity prices.

Some two million VHI and BUPA members are also facing an increase of around 5 per cent in health insurance premiums due to a Government decision to substantially increase the cost of private beds in public hospitals.

The latest figures indicate that inflation is being pushed upwards because energy prices are running 15.3 per cent ahead of last year. Petrol prices have risen by 2.9 per cent and diesel is up 5.1 per cent.

I can understand the energy costs element but I'm absolutely INCENSED that they had the nerve to look to increase prices based on the introduction of the LUAS. Does anyone else find this attitude infuriating? If this is their attitude to competition from a different source, imagine how their pricing scheme would work if they ever tendered out routes to other businesses. I mean I thought competition encouraged you to lower prices - not increase them! Or have I stepped into a mirror economic universe again?

Xterminator · 16-12-2004 04:34PM

You can word it any way you want, but the other public transport services have suffere a drop in revenue, and need to balance the books

They receive x in subsidies and y in fares.

If y decreases, as there revenue has, then to make ends meet, a fare increase must be sought, or cuts made save the amount of money, eg possibly less frequnet buses etc.

You will have noticed that to take the Luas travel is more expensive, and no doubt the buses etc feel that their losing out, because Luas overheads are probably lower per passenger.

TBH, the rises are justified on fuel costs alone.

X

segadreamcast · 17-12-2004 07:58AM

"Dublin Bus by comparison made a profit of EUR3.4M last year"

Mmm...yes... must rise fares...

Xterminator · 17-12-2004 10:20AM

NoelRock wrote:

"Dublin Bus by comparison made a profit of EUR3.4M last year"

Mmm...yes... must rise fares...

Dublin bus by comparison paid far less for fuel last year.

X

ixoy · 17-12-2004 10:24AM

Xterminator wrote:

If y decreases, as there revenue has, then to make ends meet, a fare increase must be sought, or cuts made save the amount of money, eg possibly less frequnet buses etc.

You will have noticed that to take the Luas travel is more expensive, and no doubt the buses etc feel that their losing out, because Luas overheads are probably lower per passenger.

Any figures to back all this up? Also a private company might look at making savings elsewhere - e.g. staff - but instead the action here tends to be "increase the prices".

Also the illogic of talking about competition forcing a price range still baffles me. I can appreciate the fuel costs but the LUAS element bugs me.

John R · 17-12-2004 11:49AM

ixoy wrote:

Any figures to back all this up? Also a private company might look at making savings elsewhere - e.g. staff - but instead the action here tends to be "increase the prices".

The 48A route for example is carrying less than 50% of its former loadings even though the route is less congested and quicker than before LUAS.

A private company would make savings by cutting unprofitable routes and off peak services on other routes; doesn't really fit in with providing a public service though.

Staff savings are not an option as any staff and buses released from cuts in LUAS areas will be immediately re-deployed to other areas where there are shortages or new developments in need of new routes. Dublin Bus are several hundred buses short of the fleet size called for in the NDP, the lack of capacity is noticeable in their inability to cater for new areas of the city and peak loadings on some routes.

ixoy wrote:

Also the illogic of talking about competition forcing a price range still baffles me. I can appreciate the fuel costs but the LUAS element bugs me.

There is no real competition between the two, not in a way that could have a lowering effect on fares anyway.
If price was a factor in people chosing bus over luas they would already be doing so as bus fares are already considerably cheaper than luas fares.

Customer level competition for commuter/city transport is a red-herring anyway. Inter-modal competition is only applicable to a small number of people to begin with, for the vast majority the choice of modes is based on location and convenience not price.

Nothing about the introduction of luas has made bus services cheaper to operate, except the slight reduction in journey times (which DB have already taken advantage of on the 48A by removing one bus without having to reduce the number of services) only by drastically reducing services on luas corridors can savings be made. The downside to that is that people using these routes that are too far away from luas stops will be left with an infrequent service.

Nuttzz · 17-12-2004 12:13PM

I dont advocate a ryanair approach to everything but surely making public transport more expensive is a retrograde step. I would use the bus more for short journeys if it was cheaper, it costs me less in my car to drive to the sqaure in tallaght than it would in a bus. however if it was 30-40c for a short trip I would leave the car at home

John R · 17-12-2004 03:27PM

Nuttzz wrote:

I dont advocate a ryanair approach to everything but surely making public transport more expensive is a retrograde step. I would use the bus more for short journeys if it was cheaper, it costs me less in my car to drive to the sqaure in tallaght than it would in a bus. however if it was 30-40c for a short trip I would leave the car at home

It costs you less only because you already have the car and have paid all the start up and periodical costs.
This is one of the main reasons why car owners are so reluctant to switch to public transport for certain journeys. After paying a small fortune for the car, tax and insurance it is hard to justify leaving it in the driveway and taking the bus or train.

For most people having no access to a car is a step too far but there is no way of having a car cheaply for occasional use. If more of the car owning costs were changed into car use costs it would give the less well off access to cars while discouraging many from using cars for unnecessary trips.

Obviously an increase in fares is not something to be cheerful about but if costs rise they have to be covered somehow, it is either higher fares or more tax money.

Victor · 17-12-2004 10:28PM

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/4671210?view=Eircomnet

Public transport fares increase from January
From:ireland.com
Friday, 17th December, 2004

Bus and train fares in the Republic are set to rise by between 3 and 6 per cent in the New Year following government approval to the CIÉ group of public transport companies.

The group's three subsidiaries - Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and Iarnród Éireann - are to introduce Intercity, commuter and Dart fare increases in the first week in January.

Dart fares from Dublin city to Dún Laoghaire (single), for example, will rise by 10 cent from €1.80 to €1.90 (3.23 per cent increase); while a shorter journey from the city centre to Raheny (single) will rise by 5 cent from €1.55 to €1.60, acccording to Iarnród Éireann.

Intercity fare increases range from 3 to 6 per cent, with a Cork monthly return ticket rising to €62.50 from €59.50 (5.04 per cent increase), and Limerick monthly return rising from €48.50 to €51.00 (5.15 per cent increase).

Commuter fares from the city centre to Balbriggan, for example, will rise by 15 cent from €3.35 to €3.50 (4.48 per cent), while the city centre to Maynooth fare will rise by 10 cent from €2.60 to €2.70 (3.85 per cent increase).

Dublin Bus has confirmed that all its cash fares will increase by 5 cent from January 1st,, representing a 3.5 per cent rise. Prepaid tickets will not increase but this may change during the year.

Dublin Bus said the company had sought an 8 per cent increase in fares but was instead allowed less than half that. Rising fuel costs and increased payroll costs agreed under the Sustaining Progress pay deal were two reasons the company sought the fare increase

Dublin Bus hopes to generate an extra €2 million in 2005 from the fare increase, to offset these costs, she added.

Bus Eireann did not have details about its increase rate. A spokesman for the company told ireland.commanagement are awaiting instruction from the Department of Transport.

But a Department spokesman said it is up to the company itself to determine its rates within the limits agreed by the Cabinet.

The Minister for Transport, Mr Cullen, today confirmed he had turned down a request for an 8 per cent increase in fares and said an increase of 3.5 per cent was more appropriate as it was in line with inflation.

shoegirl · 19-12-2004 05:41PM

Victor wrote:

Intercity fare increases range from 3 to 6 per cent, with a Cork monthly return ticket rising to €62.50 from €59.50 (5.04 per cent increase)
[/url]

When I moved to Cork in 2002 the return ticket on the Cork-Dublin route was 44 euros. Now it is 62.50. An increase of 42% in under 2.5 years.

The increases are very high when considered cumulatively and when you look at the frequency of increases (more than 1 per year in recent years). If these kind of increases were happening salaries (for example) they would be labelled as "unsustainable."

No wonder people are moving to private car use. John really does hit the nail on the head. Especially when you consider that the insurance hikes have mellowed slightly in the last 2 years.

The point about the 48A is well said but nobody mentioned what was done to the 13 service in late 1997. Basically the service was originally a cross city service serving all routes between Palmerstown Rd in Rathmines and Ballymun on the opposite side of the city. In that autumn DB broke the route in two - the 13A serving Ballymun, and the 13B which started in Doiler St (at the time) and went to Palmerstown Rd via Beechwood Ave. Now this bus used to be jam packed in 1997 (I seem to remember seeing Prionsias De Rossa on it) but within weeks it was empty. Anybody who wanted to go to Leeson St or Ranelagh just got the 11 route instead. And so the 13B, which initially used to have a very handy last orders bus leaving the city at 23:15, by 2001 had no bus leaving the city centre after about 6pm. In contrast the 13A has flourished. A classic example of a bad decision that caused a profitable route to run down. (I started to learn to drive 3 months after this and bought my first car the following June as it was by then taking me 2 hrs to get from Swords to Sandford Rd where I worked and 2 hrs back).

I certainly think the high ticket prices on the longer distances must be hurting the services badly, especially at off peak hours. Sure you can fly with Aer Arann for about 60-70 euro and get there in about 40 minutes.

As local TD Mr Gormley pointed out in 2001 (http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0529/D.0529.200102010027.html):

"It concerns the cutbacks in the 13B bus which services, in particular, the Rathmines and Ranelagh areas. The downgrading of this route has accelerated over the past number of years to the point now where the route is wholly inadequate and unattractive for those who are forced to use public transport and those conscientious individuals who would like to leave their cars at home. I recall when I lived in Palmerstown Road in 1977 that the No. 12 route provided an excellent service for commuters. It strikes me as bizarre that almost a quarter of a century later, when our capital city is gridlocked, when our air is seriously polluted by car fumes and when car numbers are growing exponentially, Dublin Bus has decided to cut back on this essential service. Of course, the less frequent the service, the fewer people will actually use it, which means that Dublin Bus will cut back even further.

In 1997, Dublin Bus decided the route should stop in the city centre and cut down on the number of buses it was using. At the time I objected to this move and was informed in a letter dated 17 October, 1997 from Donal Keating, divisional manager, North Summerhill Garage, as follows, “contrary to some rumours, buses will continue to operate during off peak and evening times though with less frequency than heretofore.” It is clear that the rumours were not unfounded and that people's suspicions were correct because the present timetable shows that off peak buses are a thing of the past. There is now no service between 10.20 a.m. and 15.40 p.m. from Palmerstown Park and the last bus leaves at 16.20 p.m. The service has essentially been gutted. It is becoming clearer to me that Dublin Bus intends, if possible and if allowed, to stop completely the service some time in the future. I hope it does not have the temerity to restate this is just a rumour. There is a distinct pattern, a twisted logic to the strategy. It is the logic of the bottom line, forced upon it by a Government with a McCreevyite vision of the world. The individual car owner comes first and public transport for a better society comes a very poor second."

senordingdong · 20-12-2004 12:33AM

I am outraged.
For years we have been abused by CIE's monopolisation of public transport and now we have to suffer more because they're facing competition?
That's bollocks in my opinion.

Do you really pay €62 for a return ticket to Cork?

cdebru · 20-12-2004 02:54AM

senordingdong wrote:

I am outraged.
For years we have been abused by CIE's monopolisation of public transport and now we have to suffer more because they're facing competition?
That's bollocks in my opinion.

Do you really pay €62 for a return ticket to Cork?

its a 3.5% increase thats slightly above inflation

given the rise in fuel costs
wage increases under the lastest national agreement it is hardly excessive

however I agree we should be lowering the cost of using public transport and encouraging more people to use it but the money has to come from somewhere

as for the luas and dublin bus it is not really competition unless you level the playing field and stick the buses on rails and give them priorty at all junctions like the luas

no more than the dart does not compete with the buses they are different modes of transport
like boats and planes

senordingdong · 20-12-2004 11:25PM

That's not the point.
All public transport fares as they are in this country are ridiculous if you think about what your getting in return. CIE know that we have nowhere else to turn if we are disgruntled and so they don't care.

And you're wrong about the competition element...Dublin Bus have lost fares to the luas since it's completetion. Dublin Bus and Dart don't have to compete becuase they're both under CIE.

cdebru · 20-12-2004 11:48PM

senordingdong wrote:

That's not the point.
All public transport fares as they are in this country are ridiculous if you think about what your getting in return. CIE know that we have nowhere else to turn if we are disgruntled and so they don't care.

And you're wrong about the competition element...Dublin Bus have lost fares to the luas since it's completetion. Dublin Bus and Dart don't have to compete becuase they're both under CIE.

so you think if dublin bus had competion then fares would be cheaper that was not the experience in britain
and it is not the experience here were dublin bus faces competition aircoach for example are dearer than dublin buses airlink

Ur bus minimum fare is 1 euro swords to castleknock is 4 euro

aerdart minimum fare is 1 euro howth junction to dublin airport is 4.30euro
thats for a 20 minute journey

they dont compete because they cant compete they are different modes of transport
dublin bus cannot compete with the dart because the dart has a fixed line it does not have to fight for road space

senordingdong · 21-12-2004 12:05AM

Yes, that's how it works.
They lose custom to another company, to win their customers back...they have to lower their prices and so on, so forth etc...

Dublin Bus minimum fare is 85cent, the maximum Dublin Bus fare is €1.85.

It has nothign to do with Dublin Bus being able to compete with the Dart because as I said...the two are under the same company.

cdebru · 21-12-2004 01:21AM

senordingdong wrote:

Yes, that's how it works.
They lose custom to another company, to win their customers back...they have to lower their prices and so on, so forth etc...

Dublin Bus minimum fare is 85cent, the maximum Dublin Bus fare is €1.85.

It has nothign to do with Dublin Bus being able to compete with the Dart because as I said...the two are under the same company.

that is how you would like it to work that is not how it works

yes dublin buses fares are lower than the other bus companies in dublin

MrPudding · 21-12-2004 08:19AM

I think that international experience is that in order to have a decent public transport network there has to be constant and fairly substantial public subvention. That just seems to be how it works. It would appear that it is simply not possible to provide an adequate transport network and keep fares at a reasonably low level.

Given this, it is entirely reasonable for CIE to seek further subvention or fare increases due to competition from another operator. If they require a certain amount of revenue and that has dropped in one area, fares, then they need more money. This can only really come from 2 places. Increased subvention or increased fares. As we Irish seem to think we should get something for nothing fares need to be increased.

People in Ireland want lower taxes but cannot seem to make the connection between lower taxes and crapper public services. I appreciate that these service could possibly be run in a much more efficient way but the fact is they are not. They are changing but change seems to come slowly.

If you want better public transport and low fares, like you see in other European countries, I think you will find greater subvention is probably the way to go.

MrP

Flukey · 21-12-2004 06:48PM

I bought my bus only annual bus ticket today. It cost €675. As I don't drive this is a good deal. I use the bus a lot and over the course of the year I clock up a lot of journeys over the year. The bus and rail one is not much use as I am not near any of the rail services.

Another great advantage is that I don't have to worry about coins and loose change, as I just insert the ticket into a validator at the entrance to the bus. I can get on quicker as those paying by cash on the bus have to queue up and need the exact fare. Any of us with tickets can get on without that worry and inconvenience. It is amazing how many people that you see travelling regularly, still pay by cash. The tickets would be far better for them.

If I am on a bus and then see another one that would be more suitable, I can easily jump off at the next stop and get on the other one without having to pay another fare. That does not often happen, but I have done so on occasions. Having to pay another cash fare, might put people off doing that.

A single journey into Dublin from where I live is about €1.75. The face value of my ticket would cover about 385 journeys at that rate. Given that if I am going by bus anywhere I'd be returning too that would mean about 192 return journeys. Today I made 4 journeys, though two of those would not have been €1.75 ones. The Nitelink, for which a single journey is €4, is covered too.

So with the amount of journeys I make and the convenience of it, it is well worth the money for me. I don't have to pay another bus fare for a year!:)

senordingdong · 21-12-2004 10:32PM

That has nothign to do with anything Flukey.

And exactly what otjer bus companies are you talking about cdebru?

Flukey · 21-12-2004 11:24PM

There are a few small private operators operating in Dublin, like Morton's and the aforementioned Aircoach. Some companies are also running buses for their own staff. These others are limited, but slowly growing.

cdebru · 22-12-2004 12:27AM

senordingdong wrote:

That has nothign to do with anything Flukey.

And exactly what otjer bus companies are you talking about cdebru?

aircoach
aerdart
urbus
amc

for starters

senordingdong · 22-12-2004 12:36AM

I'm not trying to be smart.
I'm simply asking as I have not seen any services other then Dublin Bus.

Where do those companies operate?

I always thought that the aerdart was under CIE, anyway...I wouldn't include them if they just go to the airport and back.

Flukey · 22-12-2004 12:48PM

You will see them around the city if you look for them. Aerdart is a private company that links up with the DART to provide a link service.

http://www.aerdart.ie

Urbus serves the north Dublin area.
www.urbus.ie

You'll often see the Mortons buses, with their red fox and ads for the circle line.
http://www.circlelinebus.com/

There are lots of private companies linking Dublin with other parts of Ireland and many people use them for communting from places just outside Dublin.

Keep your eyes open for these and others. There are lots there, some of which only serve in and around the Dublin area. Maybe you have assumed they are all tour buses that serve around the country.

shoegirl · 24-12-2004 12:37AM

MrPudding wrote:

Given this, it is entirely reasonable for CIE to seek further subvention or fare increases due to competition from another operator.
MrP

So where is the other operator on the Cork-Dublin train line?
Its CIE, possibly a limited local service, Aer Arann or the private car.

CIE same company and also subsidised, though less so.
The local services are too limited to generalise on.
Aer Aranns Cork-Dublin route is almost as heavily subsidised as the trains.
Only the car is relatively unsubsidised (though you could argue it is since the private motorist doesn't always pay the full cost for road projects if they are EU funded).

senordingdong · 24-12-2004 02:12AM

Flukey wrote:

You will see them around the city if you look for them. Aerdart is a private company that links up with the DART to provide a link service.

http://www.aerdart.ie

Urbus serves the north Dublin area.
www.urbus.ie

You'll often see the Mortons buses, with their red fox and ads for the circle line.
http://www.circlelinebus.com/

There are lots of private companies linking Dublin with other parts of Ireland and many people use them for communting from places just outside Dublin.

Keep your eyes open for these and others. There are lots there, some of which only serve in and around the Dublin area. Maybe you have assumed they are all tour buses that serve around the country.

Seems to me like Dublin Bus doesn't compete with these services.

Victor · 02-01-2005 03:43PM

shoegirl wrote:

Aer Aranns Cork-Dublin route is almost as heavily subsidised as the trains.

That route has no subsidy.

Victor · 02-01-2005 03:45PM

http://www.dublinbus.ie/news_centre/timetable_and_route_news.asp?action=view&news_id=402

http://www.irishrail.ie/dart/news_centre/general_news.asp?action=view&news_id=135

cdebru · 03-01-2005 01:34PM

senordingdong wrote:

Seems to me like Dublin Bus doesn't compete with these services.

IN what sense

they dont have a service that follows the exact same Route???

senordingdong · 06-01-2005 06:46PM

That's one reason, but the other is that these companies seem tiny in comparison with C.I.E.

Victor · 06-01-2005 07:01PM

senordingdong wrote:

That's one reason, but the other is that these companies seem tiny in comparison with C.I.E.

Aircoach have one of the major UK bus companies as an investor.

senordingdong · 07-01-2005 08:55PM

O.k....but I have never seen one of their buses, whereas I can't go anywhere without seeing countless Dublin Bus buses.

[Article] CIE fares set to rise in new year

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