Self Defence - but is it?

dabhal · 15-12-2004 10:39AM

columok wrote:

Uberwolf,

My approach to my training in martial arts is that I see it as a fun activity and something I can do to be fitter, healthier and happier. Discipline (for the purposes of this discussion I refer really to self control rather than the ability of be controlled by authority) stems from being a happy balanced individual with nothing to prove. It doesnt come from being some po-faced warrior that takes everything deathly seriously! If you are happy in yourself and are secure then its unlikely that you're gonna want to fight anyone -youd much rather be dancing around lampposts in town like a drunken fool.

If someone attacks you, your goal is to get out of there in one piece (or to make sure that your friends and family are ok too!). Ideally you should use as little violence/force as possible. Its not an ideal world so you may have to use some REASONABLE force to ensure that you escape. Once your force is REASONABLE then I dont think that there is anything wrong. If youre getting in fights a lot then you have to ask yourself why!

I think that sums it up nicley. Great post

Clive · 15-12-2004 10:58AM

PhoenixRising wrote:

What? Maybe you'd like to tell us what it really stands for then?

Granted, I've only been doing TKD for a little over a year, but the importance of self-control is emphasised heavily. It's one of the tenets of TKD, which I think is what syke was getting at.

LOL @ the tenets of TKD. I was talking to another TKD blackbelt recently and between us we could name about two of them. Every time I try to think of them I end up with the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" from primary school.

No amount of tenets or dojo kuns will make a bad person a good person. No amount of training without such modern inventions will make a good person bad.

I've run into plenty of high grades who espouse such things, who are in fact, complete tossers. Even the benevolent Gen. Choi wasn't a nice man!

15-12-2004 12:58PM

Cheers dabhal!

Many grandmasters enjoyed a good scrap, were sociopathic nutjobs and generally did a lot that shouldnt be revered! Very few of them, having being worshipped for large portion of there lives, were the kind of people you'd want to be!

logic1 · 15-12-2004 01:11PM

At the end of the day if you walked away relatively unharmed and no ones persuing legal action then it's a good day.

Sometimes you have to put your ego aside and think about the big picture. However I certainly wouldn't agree with Sykes opinion that every situation can be resolved without force.

He's posted about the confrontations he's had in his life and luckily for him it seems none of them have involved force, although it also seems he was faced with typical school yard bullies. Tough until someone stares them down. However what happens when you come across someone that's familiar, even comfortable with maximum force and isn't afraid of confrontation.

Try stare that guy down and you're checking into casualty. You have to personally assess every situation on it's own merits. This assessment takes milliseconds. Then you have to decide the best course of action. In your case you had a bit of a rumble and took a few shots then felt guilts about it afterwards. Maybe your ego was bruised a little. Take it as a learning experience.

And as for the comments that Syke wouldn't let a student back into his class if he had learned of his actions. Would you want to train under an instructor that admonishes the basic realities of the very subject he's teaching?

.logic.

memphis · 15-12-2004 04:22PM

Look people.....

Its really not that bad when ya think about it, I made a mistake I accept that, and came out with a black eye, no trip to casualty, no court appearance, it could have been alot worst, so no, I no longer feel guilty, and no, I no longer wish to beat myself up, and no I am not gonna be thrown out of TKD classes because I made a mistake. A mistake that I have now learnt from.

As a few of ye already said, sh1t happens!!!

Musashi · 16-12-2004 10:42AM

I took up TKD to be better at fighting, first and last. Isn't that what "Martial" arts are all about? ?They train you to fight, that's all.If I wanted to be enlightened I'd go to Yoga. To stay supple into old age I'd go for Tai Chi.
I wanted to learn to hit people hard enough to hurt them, without them hurting me. At the time in town the choices were TKD,Karate,Mugendo and Boxing.I went with TKD and a bit of Boxing.
Now I'm not a rabid street fighter cause I don't like scars or Jail all that much!
I don't go looking for hassle and do like to get drunk and mess about with my friends like everyone else.I would try to be a little more aware of my surroundings though and someone mirroring me as I toddle home would start me moving up the threat scale mentally.I'd try to keep an eye on them and what they are up to as well as watching out for any mates they may have waiting to ambush me ahead.A person then approaching me with verbal aggression like "I know you,you do that Tae Kwon Do,that's ****e! I'd bust you up!" ,will make me check who's around and what in hell is going on? This guy has singled me out and wants to fight by the looks of it.
I like Geoff Thompsons ideas on "The Fence" here.Hands up in an appeasing "guard",palms out and non-aggressive,"I don't know you and don't want any trouble" type of thing.You can even say this so any witnesses will say you warned the guy off.After this if he starts to put his hands on me or shape up to start swinging I'd be inclined to act to pre-empt him and resolve this situation with as little grief as possible.I don't want to hit anyone but damned if I'm letting them hit me because of some lofty ideal of what Martial Arts are about.I did not spend years learning this to be some drunken eejits punchbag!!
As for staring him down? A lot of guys I went to school with and grew up around ended up in jail.As years passed they went from being Gurriers to being Criminals.Stare at them and you challenge them to a fight, and they are not afraid of going back to their second home for another stretch.I don't want to get into some tit for tat ****ing drawn out engagement with these people or their mates because they have nothing to lose whereas I do.If you beat them in a fight they'll burn your car or house for example.This is why if I can I will walk away,or even run away.It is not worth it to me.
Sometimes however there is no preamble or interview stage and you are in a fight before you know it! Now you fight your way out because it's possible you could be killed now.Any physical contest like this has the potential to end in tragedy,I don't want to be the victim of some stupid accident or deliberate kicking either!

where as tkd guys just have somthing to prove

I dunno,I know a lot of guys who are black belts etc. and some are grand,some are dicks, and most just want a bit of a laugh and some exercise.Maybe up the country there's a different ethos about the whole thing, I don't know that many Dublin Dan Grades?

One last thing that's been bothering me about this particular altercation.
Memphis was the guy on the spot, and felt threatened enough that he threw a punch or whatever to get out of it.He then stopped?, and his opponnent came back into the fight and gave Memphis a bit of a pasting. If he was worth hitting why did you stop before you could make good your escape?
I'm wording this wrong but if you hit him and that was not enough to make a hole for you to get through and off down the road,why not follow up with a shove or sweep and make a good opportunity to get away?
I remember your posts on the tournament,was it a bit like that? Where this was an unfamiliar situation and lacking a plan to deal with it you "froze" while trying to figure out what to do?I'm interested to know why you think this happened and what you would do differently if it happened again?

Colm_OReilly · 16-12-2004 03:51PM

I took up TKD to be better at fighting

Then why'd you take up TKD?

I'm wording this wrong but if you hit him and that was not enough to make a hole for you to get through and off down the road,

Am I right in saying why didn't he run at the first opportunity? My thoughts on this would be that when that adrenaline dump hits you, it's fight or flight. When one is selected (and not by conscious, reasoned internal debate and then decision) you go for it.

Why didn't he continue punching away? My estimate would be that his training had not placed him under sufficient pressure to enable him to respond properly to an actual fight.

Peace Out,
2KR

GuanYin · 16-12-2004 06:32PM

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Lions fight to become the leader of the pack. Those that win, make the babies. Those genes are passed on. I'm not a qualified evolutionary biologist but it is a hobby of mine. I like to read a lot on evolution, genes and memes. On another note, why would someone study animals to prepare them to fight. Quite strange if you ask me.

No, alpha males arise due to a sociological imperitive. That aside Lions only fight when the alpha shows a sign of weakness, or when a stronger Lion emerges and this is a primal instinct for the good of the pack (better genes). Animals don't favour fighting if they can avoid it and few are built or designed for any real conflict. Its evolutionarily stupid to fight and risk dying. when you can run and pass on genes.

As for the study of animals, the modern martial arts we practice today all originated from various styles that were borne of mimicing grappling, strikes and holds performed by animals in the wild.

Perhaps I phrased that wrong. When we're attacked, or percieve danger, we react, we don't think things out. We fall back to basics. And sometimes, probably a lot of those times, we do things we later regret. Am I making myself clearer here?

True, but the essence of martial arts should be to discipline yourself against this thuggish behaviour, it should be part of the training.

I don't recall advocting getting into drunken brawls but if I did, I'll retract it.

a) I'm not a grandmaster
b) Tell the UCD Observer? Dude that is just beyond silly. Tell them if you'd like.
c) It kinda seems like a threat now that I reread it.

Inaction is sometimes almost as bad as action.

a) I never suggested you were
b) I never suggested I would, I don't like college media personally, however knowing how college bodies react, its not something you want them suggesting. I was merely suggesting you exercise caution.
c) It wasn't.

Anyone my thoughts on street fights and what I coach go along the lines of this. They suck, you don't want to be there. You just wanted to have a few beers. You started chatting up some dudes girlfriend and **** you're in a fight. What do you do? You pay me to equip you with the tools to defend yourself.

I tell my athletes.

1. You don't want to go to the ground on the dreaded street. But you don't want to be in a fight either. Solution: Don't go to bars, where 95% (my reckoning) of fights occur. But there's beer and chicks in bars, so that's out the window. Don't associate with people who'll likely get you in a fight. And try to be aware of danger and avoid it.

2. Don't worry about the dreaded street that much. Train, have fun, use it as a vehicle for personal grow. Or not, whatever.

3. Don't get caught up in past mistakes or let you're ego get in the way of your learning/fun/development.

This is interesting. I take it then you hold little regard for the philosophy laid out by General Choi Hong or the student oath of the ITF.

You can read it here :

Sports can be used as a vehicle for self discover, or it can be nothing more than a leisure time pursuit. Martial artists that lie to themselves with regards what they're doing and their ability make up all this jazz with regards to codes, honour, behaviour, tenets etc. It's not my job to make people better. Hell I screw up the most out of all the people I know. My job is to provide an errorless training environment that allows people to grow in martial arts and if they want, other sphere's of their life.

Actually, if you truely practice ITF, the it is your job to make people better, or at least to help them make themselves better. Again, perhaps read up on the philosophy of your ITF founder?

If you still disagree, then at least consider you are not teaching ITF, but merely thuggery.

GuanYin · 16-12-2004 06:52PM

logic1 wrote:

At the end of the day if you walked away relatively unharmed and no ones persuing legal action then it's a good day.

Sometimes you have to put your ego aside and think about the big picture. However I certainly wouldn't agree with Sykes opinion that every situation can be resolved without force.

Where is this opinion? Can you show me where I said every situation could be resolved without force?

I said violence is the last resort.

You can evade conflict 9/10 times without any martial arts training. If you have training you should be even more able.

Use of reasonable force when attacked is something that is sometimes required, but what you must examine is; "when do I need to use force"?

If someone pushed my shoulder or bumbs into me, no matter how threatheningly, I cannot believe that the situation has escalated to a point when you need to strike someone. Handbags I believe they call it.
mind.

He's posted about the confrontations he's had in his life and luckily for him it seems none of them have involved force, although it also seems he was faced with typical school yard bullies. Tough until someone stares them down. However what happens when you come across someone that's familiar, even comfortable with maximum force and isn't afraid of confrontation.

Try stare that guy down and you're checking into casualty. You have to personally assess every situation on it's own merits. This assessment takes milliseconds. Then you have to decide the best course of action. In your case you had a bit of a rumble and took a few shots then felt guilts about it afterwards. Maybe your ego was bruised a little. Take it as a learning experience.

As for whether someone is a bully or a real threat, well deep inside everyone is an ability to instinctively read a situation. Even those with the most aggresive of attention will back down if a seed of doubt is placed in their mind. All it takes is calm, control and confidence. Noone will start a fight that they think they may lose, and I would feel very worried about fighting someone who seemed not to feel I was a threat. Uncertainty like this extends through most species and at its most extreme its the reason a man with a chair can control a ring full of lions.

And as for the comments that Syke wouldn't let a student back into his class if he had learned of his actions. Would you want to train under an instructor that admonishes the basic realities of the very subject he's teaching?

.logic.

You enjoy putting words in my mouth. I wouldn't let a student who postured and bragged and DIDN'T learn back into a class. The initial attitude of the first post showed no indication of learning, which was what I based my disgust on.

However, what basic reality are you discussing? Fighting?

Does a soldier enjoy being in war?
Does a holy man enjoy sin?

Just because you deal in a business or are exposed or trained to something, it does not mean you should revel in it.

Musashi · 16-12-2004 06:53PM

Then why'd you take up TKD?

It was one of the four choices available and I knew the instructor.Also, having never done any sport I wanted to learn some of those flash kicks

No way in hell I'd try a jump spinning hooking kick in a points spar, never mind try to hit someone with it.I guess some folks out there might pull it off, bot not a high percentage option in my opinion.

Am I right in saying why didn't he run at the first opportunity

Yea, when it was obvious this was going south why not bolt? His condition may have affected his ability here though. Second, when the decision was made to strike,why not carry on until you could disengage and bolt safely? If he was worth hitting once and that wasn't stopping the guy.............. He was already getting himself wound up for a fight and now you've hit him enough to piss him off but not enough to stop him!
I've seen something similar in Tournament where one guy is lacing into the other,then just stops and gives his opponent a go.This is ok for practice in a friendly club spar once you distinguish that in a Tourny spar you stay going until he's out of your ring or down, or the ref has grabbed you and pulled you back!
Again, Geoff Thompson has some good ideas for dealing with Adrenal Dump etc. in his "Animal Day " training and "Fear is your Friend" books.

17-12-2004 12:55AM

Syke,

As for the study of animals, the modern martial arts we practice today all originated from various styles that were borne of mimicing grappling, strikes and holds performed by animals in the wild.

Some do. Some evolved through years of people fighting, figuring out what works, discarding what doesnt and improving the fighting system.

Hmmm will I imitate that crane and punch like he does or will I watch those professional boxers, who are payed to be the best, and do what they do?! I'm really torn to be honest!

True, but the essence of martial arts should be to discipline yourself against this thuggish behaviour, it should be part of the training.

Discipline schmisipline. The aim of any hobby in life is to make you a happier and more fulfilled person. Discipline makes you pliable to authority. I dont think that is a particularily beneficial attribute to have- unless you want to be a good little conformist and do what your sensei/military-officer/governmental leader tells you to without questioning anything!

This is interesting. I take it then you hold little regard for the philosophy laid out by General Choi Hong or the student oath of the ITF.

Why would Colm have any interest in General Choi or the student oath of the ITF. Colm you arent a closet TKD instructor now are you?

Also syke I'd scrutinise the actions of the good General before raising him on some pedestal as a moral role model. Some of us arent zombies so really dont appreciate "do as I say not as I do" philosophies. The man developed what is a martial art/sport. He isnt some kind of demi-god.

If you still disagree, then at least consider you are not teaching ITF, but merely thuggery.

Your reasoning is flawed- Colm doesnt agree with what I hold to be "moral" therefore he is amoral and thuggish. Maybe you should look at your own motivations before casting dispersions on everybody else. As a student of Colm Ive never had an altercation and never had any interest. I dont know any of his students that do. Moss, who posts here, is a TKDer and trains with Colm in UCD BJJ and will tell you what he thinks.

If someone pushed my shoulder or bumbs into me, no matter how threatheningly, I cannot believe that the situation has escalated to a point when you need to strike someone. Handbags I believe they call it.

Rubbish. I can think of plenty of contexts where someone pushing you intends to do you damage. Its all about context.

You enjoy putting words in my mouth. I wouldn't let a student who postured and bragged and DIDN'T learn back into a class. The initial attitude of the first post showed no indication of learning, which was what I based my disgust on.

I didnt detect any posturing or bragging in that first post. Oops, maybe my detectors are malfunctioning OR maybe you should hold the disgust in future, be a little less judgemental and show a bit of compassion! Surely compassion is in there somewhere in the TKD handbook!

However, what basic reality are you discussing? Fighting?

People get in fights pure and simple. People make mistakes pure and simple. People who get into fights make mistakes. A self defence instructor should be aware of this and be understanding!

GuanYin · 17-12-2004 01:12AM

Most martial arts today have evolved from other martial arts, but if you study the history you will find that all can be traced back to a handful of simple fighting styles that mimiced the instinctive stances and fighting patterns of animals. So while a martial art that exists maybe 70 years may not direct fall into my assertation, the arts from which it drew its being did.

I feel we will agree to differ here, I feel most of the arguments are a product of the western mindset. It is precisely why the standard of many arts is so much lower in Europe.

blondie83 wrote:

Syke bear in mind that Memphis has only been studying MA for about 9 months - while I think you've been studying for a good few years now (please correct me if i'm wrong on this). While he shouldn't have hit the guy, you have to take into account that he doesn't have your experience. I would imagine that the chances are that if this incident were to occur again, when he has his dan grade, it would go somewhat differently.

20 years, no correction needed. This is a fair enough point you make, and true, inexperience accounts for much and his instructors response is as I would expect.

The initial post asked "is it ok" or more is it legal, so I assumed at this point there was no remorse (its hard to be remorseful if you're still asking have you done wrong) thus I made harsh remarks. For the situation I saw, If feel they are right.

I was led to believe one of you was a TKD instructor, although I may have been mistaken.

Clive · 17-12-2004 11:23AM

syke wrote:

Most martial arts today have evolved from other martial arts, but if you study the history you will find that all can be traced back to a handful of simple fighting styles that mimiced the instinctive stances and fighting patterns of animals.

??? any sources or references for that?

Pankration, boxing, wrestling and muay thai - some of the oldest arts, have no such links that I'm aware of.

While it's true that much of the root of karate styles (and of course Korean karate aka taekwondo) is reputed to come from White Crane, it's a big jump between that and saying "all martial arts come from animal forms".

memphis · 17-12-2004 01:20PM

My first post was full of nothing but disgust and anger at myself for allowing such actions to occur, hence the reason why I never mentioned that i had actually been in a fight. The post was a post of confusion, and seeking reasurrance, and perhaps my points didn't come across very well for the simple reason that I was covering up the truth.... which again I'm not proud of.

At the end of the day I'd rather forget the whole thing happened, I have learnt from it I assure you of that. What happened will not happen again, I can vow to that, and if it does I will look at the situation differently, and most likely walk away.

And Syke, I don't mean to offend, but I already feel bad about the whole thing.... thanks a bunch for adding to that guilt! Perhaps next time you'll be more understanding!

I'm gonna leave it here, I've had this on my mind long enough and to be frank I'm sick of the whole thing, and don't wish to talk about it any longer!

Sh1t happens!

GuanYin · 17-12-2004 01:30PM

Clive wrote:

??? any sources or references for that?

Pankration, boxing, wrestling and muay thai - some of the oldest arts, have no such links that I'm aware of.

While it's true that much of the root of karate styles (and of course Korean karate aka taekwondo) is reputed to come from White Crane, it's a big jump between that and saying "all martial arts come from animal forms".

Pick up any good book on the history of martial arts and you can read of the migration of different fighting styles tracing back to about 1111 BC.

I don't know much about western wrestling styles art but certainly Taijutsu and jujitsu, the oldest of the modern grappling arts derived many of the leverage techniques from studying primates and these in turn spawned the likes of judo and aikido. Muay Thai evolved from a traditional thai system, krabi krabong, which was in place in the 1700's. Much of krabi krabong's unarmed fighting (which we now see as Muay Thai) was taken from existing open hand techniques which many karate styles also owe their lineage to.

I suggest if you are interested in learning on the subject you take any text book on asian socio-geographic history and a good history of martial arts book. You need to understand the climate to appreciate the reasons for much of the evolution.

GuanYin · 17-12-2004 01:32PM

memphis wrote:

And Syke, I don't mean to offend, but I already feel bad about the whole thing.... thanks a bunch for adding to that guilt! Perhaps next time you'll be more understanding!

Perhaps I would have been more understanding if you had been more open and honest in your first post.

As far as I can see all it does is ask are you legally in trouble. That doesn't tell me you feel guilty, just that you're worried about prosecution.

Dyr · 17-12-2004 02:01PM

syke wrote:

Pick up any good book on the history of martial arts and you can read of the migration of different fighting styles tracing back to about 1111 BC.

I don't know much about western wrestling styles art but certainly Taijutsu and jujitsu, the oldest of the modern grappling arts derived many of the leverage techniques from studying primates and these in turn spawned the likes of judo and aikido. .

Do you have a source for that?? According to draeger the term jujutsu didnt come into use until the edo period, the term taijutsu came later still IIRC. How does one come to the conclusion that they are the oldest of modern grappling arts?? What is your definition of a "modern grappling art" ?

IIRC. I've never heard anyone claim jj came from studying primates, and to be honest I think that statement is rubbish. Youd be doing well to find any japanese system, modern or ancient, that claims to have techniques adapted from animals.

syke wrote:

Pick up any good book on the history of martial arts and you can read of the migration of different fighting styles tracing back to about 1111 BC.

.

Care to name any of these books?? Is this a reference to the myth that all martial arts came from india originally via the shaolin temple?

Colm_OReilly · 17-12-2004 03:05PM

I don't teach TKD, I don't teach thuggery, I don't teach anything.

I provide an environment where people from all backgrounds and all motivations are free to discover for themselves what works in a realistic context.

Peace Out,
Colm

GuanYin · 17-12-2004 03:16PM

Bambi wrote:

Do you have a source for that?? According to draeger the term jujutsu didnt come into use until the edo period, the term taijutsu came later still IIRC. How does one come to the conclusion that they are the oldest of modern grappling arts?? What is your definition of a "modern grappling art" ?

Most modern systems using grappling only came into being in the last century.
Of the common ones being used the two I mentioned are the oldest with forms of modern JJ existing back in the 1600's at least.

But again many of these techniques are bastardised from older fighting styles still. If I'm back home any time soon I'll see what the books are and if they are published in English.

IIRC. I've never heard anyone claim jj came from studying primates, and to be honest I think that statement is rubbish. Youd be doing well to find any japanese system, modern or ancient, that claims to have techniques adapted from animals.

You didn't hear anyone claim that here either so at least you have consistancy. I said many of the leverage moves used were derived from studying primates and other animals in conflict. They were neither derived specifically for JJ, nor were they from that era, they may well, however, have been modified to suit the fighting style. Most techniques work on basic principles that can be applied across many disciplines and styles.

Care to name any of these books?? Is this a reference to the myth that all martial arts came from india originally via the shaolin temple?

I've read that and no I don't believe that everything came from Bodidharma's teachings. Its most likely that they evolved slowly over time and were used as protection against wild animals (using techniques observed watching other animals defend themselves). There is archeological evidence to suggest this and even some glyphs depicting it.

Again, most of the books I've read wouldn't be in english, but when I'm home again I may take some back and post english translations.

TwoKingMick · 17-12-2004 03:27PM

Most modern systems using grappling only came into being in the last century.

Ever heard of wrestling?

GuanYin · 17-12-2004 03:37PM

TwoKingMick wrote:

Ever heard of wrestling?

Yes but I thought I clarified in a previous post that I don't know anything about western arts.

TwoKingMick · 17-12-2004 03:39PM

wrestling isn't western, its universal

Dyr · 17-12-2004 03:50PM

also silat, dumog, sumo, kumi uchi, etc

uberpixie · 17-12-2004 10:57PM

Clive wrote:

(and of course Korean karate aka taekwondo).

Tang Soo Do is Korean Karate.

TKD, while it owes a lot to Karate, is not the same thing. What the differences are I don't know.

I'm only a yellow belt in TKD and I have never praticed Karate,maybe someone out there with experiance of both might be able to tell us?

Musashi · 18-12-2004 01:21AM

Why should martial arts evolve from the study of anything but the human animal.
I am not built like a Mantis or a Chimp, what good is learning how they fight?
I want to know the most ergonomic and effective way for a human to move and generate power, one of the things Gen. Choi wanted too?
I would rate Rugby or Field Archery as more realistic "Martial Arts" these days anyhow! Does the study of pistol and rifle/shotgun not qualify as a martial art?
The most "effective" Martial Art I've seen in the last few years was the "Practical" style three gun events which used to be held in the UK prior to the bans.
As for people knocking TKD, it depends on the instructor! If he will not teach or allow you to use anything outside the curriculum you will be the poorer for it. My first instructor would show us the "Official" move to be used for gradings, then present us with other options which some may like better than the approved technique. Being open and willing to try stuff is more important than what style you train under in my opinion.There are only so many ways to move,trip,hit and lock. We should try em all and keep what works for us. Like the MMA guys testing and discarding, but what I like and will retain to use may differ to guys bigger,smaller,faster, who like to strike or who like to grapple. Same results from different approachs.
Maybe I'd have been better off if I'd taught myself BJJ, but I doubt it.Hard to get the little nuances from a book or video, in my experience.
Having said that, lacking a qualified instructor, if the Colms or TKMick can suggest a text or DVD to use in learning more of the ground game I'd certainly like to give it a once over and try the stuff with some mates. Or if Stephen would share what manuals etc. he used in his own development?

18-12-2004 02:04PM

Martial art= something related to war or combat.

Shooting would indeed be a martial art!

Maybe I'd have been better off if I'd taught myself BJJ, but I doubt it.Hard to get the little nuances from a book or video, in my experience.

If you had a mate to spar/roll with you could learn a lot!

Having said that, lacking a qualified instructor, if the Colms or TKMick can suggest a text or DVD to use in learning more of the ground game I'd certainly like to give it a once over and try the stuff with some mates. Or if Stephen would share what manuals etc. he used in his own development?

Colm should be able to help on this one. Ive read some of the Gracie books and found "Submission Grappling" by Royler Gracie to be pretty good.

18-12-2004 02:06PM

Uberpixie

Tang Soo Do is Korean Karate.

TKD, while it owes a lot to Karate, is not the same thing. What the differences are I don't know.

I'm only a yellow belt in TKD and I have never praticed Karate,maybe someone out there with experiance of both might be able to tell us?

Clive has a 3rd Dan in TKD and has done pretty much every martial art under the sun. He now fights professional rules MMA and thai boxes out of Bridgestone!

TwoKingMick · 18-12-2004 02:49PM

TKMick

Its properly abbreviated 2KM

Musashi · 18-12-2004 03:58PM

No relation of TKMaxx then?

Colm_OReilly · 18-12-2004 06:37PM

Musashi,

It takes experience to understand the nuances of techniques, but you can start to learn on your own. Obviously your progression will be faster if there's a coach to help you out, but you can improve with some mates and by learning a few basic moves off the internet.

Check out

www.bjj.org
www.subfighter.com www.royharris.com

to get you started.

Hope this helps,
Colm

Self Defence - but is it?

Comments