Self Defence - but is it?

memphis

Ok, this is something that has been playing on my mind for awhile.

Take this scenario for example. A guy comes up to you after being out and he starts mouthing onto ya, then continues to push you about looking for a fight, if I hit the guy (kick, punch, or whatever) after he pushed me is this defined as self defence or have I actually technically started the fight despite him having pushed me about?

How would the law look on it?

I'm not saying this happened, but if it did would I be in my rights (legally, or under the training of TKD) to make physical contact after I get pushed about?

memphis

Musashi

My understanding is that someone "in your face" may be a threat but once they touch you it is assault and you can defend yourself.If you are still hitting him two minutes later while he's out cold on the ground, you are assaulting him.
Say he throws a punch and you block it,if he's not throwing another one then the assault has ended and you are not justified in hitting him at this point.
Sometimes a block and sweep will be all you need to make space to extract yourself from the situation.People saying "What if I can't get away and have to fight" are not really trying to get away ,or want to be told it's ok to go mad with every technique they know.
Fighting on the street is never a good idea, stay well out of it and go to tournaments to test your style Memphis!

Obscure

If it happens dont let the law get involved, after you've stopped him get out of there as quick as possible. Would not look good for you if cops come around the corner and see you standing over some bloke with a bleeding nose! It may have been self-defense but how do you prove it? Won't look that way to the cops!

loz_the_boz

assault doent necessarliy only happen when he hits you, assalut is the fear of your safelty or of others around you, if his verval puts fear in you then yo are entiltiled to defent yourself with reasonable force.

just done jury duty !

Ask yourself:

Do you think that you are in danger ?

Do you think that your actions are proportional to that danger?

Thats what will be asked by the gardai and by the courts. Its all about reasonable force...

Now- why are these thoughts dwelling in your mind. Please tell me its not "hoping to get attacked so I can kick ass and impress girls" syndrome. Be smart and you probably wont get attacked.

dabhal

could you just walk away or are you more worried about your pride?

memphis

Ok, alot of interesting opinions floating about here, but to answer Columok, the reason its on my mind is cos it actually happened (despite I saying it didn't). I have a black eye since last sunday night week ago after I was jumped by a guy that was mouthing onto me about me doing TKD (donno who he was, but he seemingly knew me), he started to push me about and I smacked him one. I'm not happy about my actions, and the fact that I had a belly full of drink doesn't say much for my actions either.

I was just wondering if I was in the wrong, going by dabhal's advice I should've just walked away, but I didn't! We fought, he knocked me, and started to punch me and kick me in face while I was down, I didn't go to cop shop cos I was afraid they'd see it differently than it being self defence (which I have to say I partly thought myself).

Do any of ye guys get stick for doing MA, have you been in a simular scenario?

GuanYin

memphis wrote:

Ok, this is something that has been playing on my mind for awhile.

Take this scenario for example. A guy comes up to you after being out and he starts mouthing onto ya, then continues to push you about looking for a fight, if I hit the guy (kick, punch, or whatever) after he pushed me is this defined as self defence or have I actually technically started the fight despite him having pushed me about?

How would the law look on it?

I'm not saying this happened, but if it did would I be in my rights (legally, or under the training of TKD) to make physical contact after I get pushed about?

memphis

Walk away. Above everything else you learn in TKD, your discipline is the most important. Without it, you will never leanr anything and you will never progress.

If you were in that situation and my student and I learned you through a punch I would never train you again.

You have a moral responsability regarding the skills you learn. That responsability involves avoiding using them at all costs. The answer is walk away and feel satisfied you didn't have to fight.

Regarding the actual question, it depends on what level of skill the prosecution can intimate you have. If it is of a sufficient level over your victim/aggressor then they would suggest that there is little difference in your initiating a fight with a crowbar or knife in your pocket, seeing as you knew you had the upper hand.

But to be fair, I find it worrying you would ask such a question.

GuanYin

memphis wrote:

Ok, alot of interesting opinions floating about here, but to answer Columok, the reason its on my mind is cos it actually happened (despite I saying it didn't). I have a black eye since last sunday night week ago after I was jumped by a guy that was mouthing onto me about me doing TKD (donno who he was, but he seemingly knew me), he started to push me about and I smacked him one. I'm not happy about my actions, and the fact that I had a belly full of drink doesn't say much for my actions either.

I was just wondering if I was in the wrong, going by dabhal's advice I should've just walked away, but I didn't! We fought, he knocked me, and started to punch me and kick me in face while I was down, I didn't go to cop shop cos I was afraid they'd see it differently than it being self defence (which I have to say I partly thought myself).

Do any of ye guys get stick for doing MA, have you been in a simular scenario?

Yes you were totally in the wrong and completely irresponsible. You should have just walked away.

If you cannot act with discipline and control then you have no business setting foot in a martial art class, especially a TKD one.

Ok Memphis,

It happened so that puts a different spin on things. You made a mistake and hit a guy. Its not the end of the world- you arent an evil student who should be shunned from the annals of TKD history. You got drunk, someone tried to start a fight with you, you hit him and then got pasted- SH1T HAPPENS!
The key for you is to learn from this experience...

1) How did he know you did TKD? Where you broadcasting it? Showing off (even subconsciously!)?

2) Did TKD work for you in a fight? Did you hurt your fist? Did you knock the guy down?

3) How did he manage to get you on the ground? Recommendation: Learn some wrestling or judo! (Or develop a mean thai clinch )

4) How did he manage to kick and punch you on the ground: Go and learn some BJJ, Judo or some MMA!


You can learn from this experience and you can improve your attitude, fighting ability and be a much happier person ORRR you can get paranoid, think everyone is out to get you, carry round numerous weapons and learn secret ninja death techniques. Dont sweat it dude- everyone makes mistakes. Show me one great person that hasnt. The really great ones learn from their mistakes, improve themselves and dont repeat them.

Take it easy,

Colum

GuanYin

columok wrote:

Ok Memphis,

It happened so that puts a different spin on things. You made a mistake and hit a guy. Its not the end of the world- you arent an evil student who should be shunned from the annals of TKD history. You got drunk, someone tried to start a fight with you, you hit him and then got pasted- SH1T HAPPENS!
The key for you is to learn from this experience...
...
Colum

In fairness Colm, thats a rather strange attitude. Yes learn from the experience, but if one of your students got drunk and hit someone would you not admonish him?

So far there have been no criminal convictions for assault implicating TKD in Ireland and its something I know many Sabumin are proud of.

I don't think he should be hung out to dry but he should be made aware that what he did is contrary to everything that TKD stands for. I have noticed the attitudes in younger schools (including UCD ones which I have observed on occasion) in Ireland do not push home the responsibility of the student.

I just think that people make mistakes in everything they do and that is the only way to learn.

He was pushed first so its hardly a case of him assaulting someone since he could reasonably assume that the guy was out to hurt him- as he clearly was. I could understand indignation if he was randomly throwing digs in every direction but maybe if he had of walked away in this case he might have gotten loafed in the back of the head. His body perceived danger for a reason and he acted instinctively.

The man is sorry about his actions. Next time dont be a dumbass, dont broadcast the TKD thing, avoid the fight before it happens and have a good night out of A+E.

GuanYin

columok wrote:

I just think that people make mistakes in everything they do and that is the only way to learn.

He was pushed first so its hardly a case of him assaulting someone since he could reasonably assume that the guy was out to hurt him- as he clearly was. I could understand indignation if he was randomly throwing digs in every direction but maybe if he had of walked away in this case he might have gotten loafed in the back of the head. His body perceived danger for a reason and he acted instinctively.

The man is sorry about his actions. Next time dont be a dumbass, dont broadcast the TKD thing, avoid the fight before it happens and have a good night out of A+E.

Ok granted, but as an instructor should not the dictum "violence as the final resort" be our motto (paraphrasing Lao Tzu's "Violence is the Refuge of the Violent")?

Our instincts should be not to respond, to walk (or if you are in fear of assault, back) away from the fight. Pushing and jostling is not violent intent, its just provokation and we as practicioners of martial arts should be above that.

Musashi

OK, so you got in a scrap in a pub, no-one badly hurt,this time, so not too bad.
What was your analysis of the fight afterwards though? What did you do right and wrong? Why did he know you were a Martial Artist? Were you looking to "test" what you thought you knew in the real world? Hell,I've often wondered "what if" usually ending in me saving,and then bedding the pretty girl! (FANTASY)
Was he trained in anything himself? Was there a bit of pushy-pushy first where you could have de-escalated and walked away? Did you square off to him when it was "on",or worse, bow?? You hit him first? He shoved you first? Were you in fear of being assaulted?

Yes you were totally in the wrong and completely irresponsible. You should have just walked away.

If the other guy instigated this and was not taking "go away I don't want a fight" for an answer.Then further escalated with physical contact ,then I feel turning your back and trying to walk away would be extremely foolhardy.

If you were in that situation and my student and I learned you through a punch I would never train you again.

As my first instructor told us, because we learn MA we do not have less right to defend ourselves.If you were my student I would obviously have learnt a lot about you,your character, and how you act under pressure.If I was satisfied that you did not start this and were defending yourself,then you would be most welcome in class again.
The only fault I would find would be that my instruction had not prepared you to defend your person,pretty much the whole point of any "Martial" art style.I should have thrown in more scenario training to prep my students for people trying to sucker punch,to intimidate verbally or physically,"dirty" fighting,distracting you to gain that second of advantage,"woofing" or verbal abuse.The general precursors to a fight. We should have done unscripted defense from attacks from any angle from any member,two members,where they don't stop when you turn away,and where they do not use TKD style but just box,or thigh kick, or just come in whaling away.Basically the "Alive" sparring promoted by the MMA lads.
If we are not doing these things in class I would probably be doing you a disservice and you would be better off if I sent you to play Rugby, for example.

Did TKD work for you in a fight? Did you hurt your fist? Did you knock the guy down?

Did you hit him with your fist even? I know it's the default when under pressure for most people,but you should have been shown palm heel and arc hand strikes too,knife hand to the neck can be effective, as are elbows and knees when in close. Train with guys who practice other arts too.Learn how a thai boxer,a judoka,a boxer,a Karateka move and if you can ,why they do that!
Do not neglect the trapping,grappling,takedown and ground fighting, all are possible and even likely depending on your ability in the clinch and sprawl type fighting Just been learning a bit of this lately and it's fun! You'd think rolling on the ground would be a lot easier though!!
Right, that's my lot lads and thanks for reading!
To the Colms/Colums, my brother is working in Dublin so if I get up there I'd like to come train with you boys, being a bogger limits my options!

Look at the context. Its late at night your drunk and on your own therefore pretty vulnerable! A stranger who apparently knows who you are has singled you out as a target because you do MA, they are shouting abuse at you and start to push you.

Admittedly violence is the last resort here (I agree with you there) but it seems pretty likely that the person is intent on doing you harm. Its not a random drunk that you can just sidestep as they have chosen you, a familiar target, to have a row with. There is intent in choosing you and obviously intent to escalate things to a physical altercation (pushing IS assault). I'm not saying that I would always punch someone here- rather I can understand how that would be the course of action undertaken.

To the Colms/Colums, my brother is working in Dublin so if I get up there I'd like to come train with you boys, being a bogger limits my options!

I look forward to it Musashi!

GuanYin

Musashi wrote:

If the other guy instigated this and was not taking "go away I don't want a fight" for an answer.Then further escalated with physical contact ,then I feel turning your back and trying to walk away would be extremely foolhard

I've had two serious confrontations in the past couple of years. The first one was outside the palace where a very tall drunk guy kicked a homeless person begging, I stepped between them and told him to go away, he shouted and screamed all sorts of violents threats at me and pushed my shoulder, I stood my ground and stared impassively, even when he squared up to me. I didn't mouth, I didn't posture I just stood and stared, his friends came to pull him away at this stage at which point I walked away, I would have done sooner but was worried for the homeless woman. Noone lost face, noone was hurt.

The second time a group of teens in santry through a chip at me when I was at an ATM (my girlfriend was sitting in the car watching). When I turned to glare at them the lead thug squared up and mouthed off taunting me and pushing me, telling me to hit him. I just stood and stared and I think I smiled a little (mainly cos with all his friends watching and him getting frustrated I thought it was amusing). I remember he was an inch from my face and begging me to hit him. Very few people would have cared had I but why would or should I? In the end he got pissed off and his friend dragged him off, I remember watching them walk off and the idiot started on his friend in the group.

I'm not a big person, I'm not very intimidating looking and I'm different enough to be an easy target for harassment these days. But I know that there is absolutely no point or reason in hitting someone because they are a bit of an idiot. You only let yoruself down.

GuanYin

columok wrote:

Look at the context. Its late at night your drunk and on your own therefore pretty vulnerable! A stranger who apparently knows who you are has singled you out as a target because you do MA, they are shouting abuse at you and start to push you.

Admittedly violence is the last resort here (I agree with you there) but it seems pretty likely that the person is intent on doing you harm. Its not a random drunk that you can just sidestep as they have chosen you, a familiar target, to have a row with. There is intent in choosing you and obviously intent to escalate things to a physical altercation (pushing IS assault). I'm not saying that I would always punch someone here- rather I can understand how that would be the course of action undertaken.

Well I'm sorry to say I can't agree with that attitude at all and I'm really shocked by it. I HAVE been in those situations. Alcohol is no excuse Colum, my god, you instruct at colleges don't you? I sincerely hope you don't relay such a mindset to your students.

Hang on Syke. I dont teach MA at college (wrong Colm)! I have never hit someone on the street in anger (drunk or otherwise)! Ive been in street situations before but I was never in this one so I cant comment hypothetically on how I would act. I think its a little silly to claim that you can do the same. The situation is unique.

I merely looked at the context of the situation and made a logical analysis of the individual's intent. My point about being drunk is that the guy was aware of his target's drunkenness- probably a good reason for picking them as a target. It is unlikely that he would have been picked as a target if he was sober. A predator looking for a fight, seeing someone they recognise, who is vulnerable is someone looking to do some harm. I never condoned the idea of hitting him, rather I looked at the situation from his point of view. He hit the guy because he was in fear of his safety- pure and simple. Its the way all human beings are designed -martial artists or not.

Colm_OReilly

I wasn't going to add to this discussion but seeing how people regularly mix up Columok and me, I thought I'd better. Colum is a friend and trains with me. While our viewpoints may be similar with regards ma training please do not take anything either of us say to be a representation of the others viewpoint. Colum does not teach to college students.

memphis,

To answer your originaly question according to the law students I know (who incidently also practice ma) they reckon the law will come down pretty hard on you if they know you do an ma, regardless of how effective that ma happens to be (just had to get that in ). Of course, if you're a chick, they're a lot more forgiving, what with rape being such the social evil and all.

Above everything else you learn in TKD, your discipline is the most important. Without it, you will never leanr anything and you will never progress.

On an more abstract note, creativity and a willingness to experiment are the most important prerequisites to learning. Discipline will lead to subserviance.

You can learn from this experience and you can improve your attitude, fighting ability and be a much happier person ORRR you can get paranoid, think everyone is out to get you, carry round numerous weapons and learn secret ninja death techniques. Dont sweat it dude- everyone makes mistakes. Show me one great person that hasnt. The really great ones learn from their mistakes, improve themselves and dont repeat them

I like this passage, could be used for a lot of things.

Our instincts should be not to respond, to walk (or if you are in fear of assault, back) away from the fight. Pushing and jostling is not violent intent, its just provokation and we as practicioners of martial arts should be above that.

Our instincts are based around the four F's: Fighting, Fleeing, Forraging, and Finding a Mate. You'll respond the most to Danger, Food, and Sex. So if you're in perceived danger, you'll become more *primitive* for want of a better word. You may attack, you may run. It's quite difficult to predict what anyone will do when they're in real danger or perceived danger.

And who says martial artists are above anything? We should, we all should be above foolishness, but the reality is we're not. Far from it.

A lot on this thread seems to be attacking memphis because he made a mistake. It is too easy to criticize people when you're not in the thick of it. I'm not saying we shouldn't offer advise,just that I think it's important to have an understanding of how someone could find himself in that position. Harsh scorning isn't going to do him any good, as he's clearly shock up over it and confused at the moment. Approaching the situation with a little compassion might help.

Memphis,

**** Happens, you got your ass handed to you. That happened once. How many times have you gone over it in your mind since then. How much energy have you put into it? I'd say a lot. All the while you're missing what's happening right now.

Take Care Man,
Colm

GuanYin

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Our instincts are based around the four F's: Fighting, Fleeing, Forraging, and Finding a Mate. You'll respond the most to Danger, Food, and Sex. So if you're in perceived danger, you'll become more *primitive* for want of a better word. You may attack, you may run. It's quite difficult to predict what anyone will do when they're in real danger or perceived danger.

Oh come off it. I'm a biologist and I don't buy that for a second. If you want to take evolutionary biology into account and put it into the context of martial arts, few animals are built for fighting. They are built for escape and ambush or defence. On an evolutionary playing field there is nothing to be gained by fighting so it would not be a natural instinct. The very animals that lead to many of the martial arts we study fight only in terms of pack ascendency or mating, most instinctively assess threats and will flee unless driven by a primal force.

A few pints and a bit of a taunt outside a pub are hardly a primal driving force unless evolution has really taken a siesta this past few thousand years.

As sentient humans, we are beyond that kind of primitive behaviour and this was the ethos of nearly every eastern martial art since conception.

I'm not going to go all Mr. Miagi here, but no grandmaster ever advocated martial arts in drunken brawls and I don't believe a UCD instructor should either. What would the UCD observer say if they got hold of that?

And who says martial artists are above anything? We should, we all should be above foolishness, but the reality is we're not. Far from it.

I do, and many greater people before me. Its part and parcel of what you learn. You're not just learning how to hit people. If you think you are, you don't know what you're doing.

A lot on this thread seems to be attacking memphis because he made a mistake. It is too easy to criticize people when you're not in the thick of it. I'm not saying we shouldn't offer advise,just that I think it's important to have an understanding of how someone could find himself in that position. Harsh scorning isn't going to do him any good, as he's clearly shock up over it and confused at the moment. Approaching the situation with a little compassion might help.

I'm more inclined to criticise him for the nature of his attitude in the thread than his actions, which are excusable but a lesson learned (the hard way). Had he walked away, and more importantly, had his instructor instilled the valuable importance of why he should walk away, he would have no injury and would have lost nothing. If he realises this, then at least the thread served a purpose.

Colm_OReilly

On an evolutionary playing field there is nothing to be gained by fighting so it would not be a natural instinct. The very animals that lead to many of the martial arts we study fight only in terms of pack ascendency or mating, most instinctively assess threats and will flee unless driven by a primal force.

Lions fight to become the leader of the pack. Those that win, make the babies. Those genes are passed on. I'm not a qualified evolutionary biologist but it is a hobby of mine. I like to read a lot on evolution, genes and memes. On another note, why would someone study animals to prepare them to fight. Quite strange if you ask me.

A few pints and a bit of a taunt outside a pub are hardly a primal driving force unless evolution has really taken a siesta this past few thousand years.

Perhaps I phrased that wrong. When we're attacked, or percieve danger, we react, we don't think things out. We fall back to basics. And sometimes, probably a lot of those times, we do things we later regret. Am I making myself clearer here?

I'm not going to go all Mr. Miagi here, but no grandmaster ever advocated martial arts in drunken brawls and I don't believe a UCD instructor should either. What would the UCD observer say if they got hold of that?

I don't recall advocting getting into drunken brawls but if I did, I'll retract it.

a) I'm not a grandmaster
b) Tell the UCD Observer? Dude that is just beyond silly. Tell them if you'd like.
c) It kinda seems like a threat now that I reread it.

Anyone my thoughts on street fights and what I coach go along the lines of this. They suck, you don't want to be there. You just wanted to have a few beers. You started chatting up some dudes girlfriend and **** you're in a fight. What do you do? You pay me to equip you with the tools to defend yourself.

I tell my athletes.

1. You don't want to go to the ground on the dreaded street. But you don't want to be in a fight either. Solution: Don't go to bars, where 95% (my reckoning) of fights occur. But there's beer and chicks in bars, so that's out the window. Don't associate with people who'll likely get you in a fight. And try to be aware of danger and avoid it.

2. Don't worry about the dreaded street that much. Train, have fun, use it as a vehicle for personal grow. Or not, whatever.

3. Don't get caught up in past mistakes or let you're ego get in the way of your learning/fun/development.

I do, and many greater people before me. Its part and parcel of what you learn. You're not just learning how to hit people. If you think you are, you don't know what you're doing.

Sports can be used as a vehicle for self discover, or it can be nothing more than a leisure time pursuit. Martial artists that lie to themselves with regards what they're doing and their ability make up all this jazz with regards to codes, honour, behaviour, tenets etc. It's not my job to make people better. Hell I screw up the most out of all the people I know. My job is to provide an errorless training environment that allows people to grow in martial arts and if they want, other sphere's of their life.

Thanks, take care,

Colm

Syke,

I'm not trying to get personal here so forgive me if I offend you.

If you look back over Colm or my posts you'll realise that neither of us in any way condone street fighting. Just because we show understanding you choose to label us in such a way. You seem intent on casting dispersions on people's character from some kind of moral high horse which is a touch unfair.

Memphis came into this thread with clear feelings of guilt and remorse and yet you chose to chastise him and accuse him of not being "martial arts material" (I paraphrase). I try and understand his point of view and you think I possess some kind of "streetfighter" mindset. Colm does similar and you cast dispersions on his coaching ability and threaten to libel his good name. I appreciate you having strong morals but I think you should tone down your indignation- it seems a little disproportionate. Its also unfair to cite your own experiences to qualify you as a moral guardian- your situations are unique to you and concordantly not the same as those of Memphis. Different pro and antagonists, different situations, different variables and therefore different outcomes.

People make mistakes. Last time I checked martial artists are people. The day martial artists stop making mistakes is the day martial arts lose their humanity.

Live, learn, train, enjoy, smile!

Colum

dabhal

Quote

"I should've just walked away"


I think you answered your own question here, no-one else was there, only you know the circumstances and how you felt but I get the feeling you believe you could have walked away.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Really think about how you where feeling at the time, was it just pride that made you hit this guy?
Either way from what you said it's a 50/50 chance in a courtroom so just be glad it's over and make a decision on how you'll deal with it(or avoid it) the next time.

Dabhal

Clive

I'm not going to go all Mr. Miagi here, but no grandmaster ever advocated martial arts in drunken brawls

LMAO! Quite a few prominent martial artists are well known for loving a drink and a scrap.

The notion of martial artists being good, wholesome people is a modern invention of the Japanese (and Japanese influenced) post war martial arts.

Since TKD has been mentioned on this thread, Gen. Choi was a self confessed gambler and thief. He was gambling with someone, lost, then knocked him out and stole the money back, which he then used to go to Japan.

memphis

Alot of points being thrown around above, and the vast majority of them appear to be very negative of my actions. I accept that. I've already said I am not happy about what I did, and I also accept that I have gone and broken probably every rule there is in the TKD book.

The guy, who I didn't know, but knew me, and knew I did MA, I'm assuming he knew this because my picture has been in the local paper recently due to my trip to the EU championship in Holland last month.

I would normally not be the agressive type, and try to avoid a fight at all costs, but this was me walking home alone (when drunk) and a guy who to me was a threat mouthing onto me and pushing me about. I smacked him one, which I accept was way out of order.

For the books my instructor is not very happy about my actions, but has insisted that I take a long hard think about my actions and learn from my mistake like Columok, and Colm O Reilly have said above! Just cos I made a mistake doesn't mean I should not step foot in the dojang again surely?

I take the art very seriously (generally), get great enjoyment out of it, and give it my all during training, surely 1 drunken fight doesn't prohibit me from training TKD any longer.

Memph

blondie83

Memphis don't feel so bad about it, as someone else said earlier on sh*t happens, you just gotta deal with it. The important thing is that you learn from your mistake, at least that way you'll be better prepared should it ever happen again.

We train in relatively safe envirnoments, however when we face reality in real life situations such as this we will understandibly react differently. One of our instructors makes a point of putting us under this sort of pressure when he's training us. And I know you do react differently...I found at the start that I had a tendancy to run away while lashing out madly on all sides! By the end of the class I had realised that I was just panicing, and managed to work around it. Reminds me of some advice our career guidance teacher gave us while we were studying for the leaving - "If you're going to panic organise it!"

Syke bear in mind that Memphis has only been studying MA for about 9 months - while I think you've been studying for a good few years now (please correct me if i'm wrong on this). While he shouldn't have hit the guy, you have to take into account that he doesn't have your experience. I would imagine that the chances are that if this incident were to occur again, when he has his dan grade, it would go somewhat differently.

TwoKingMick

Of all the martial arts i've been associated with, ive found tkd black belts get into the most scraps, with the possible exception of boxers.
But then again i reckon the difference is boxers love fighting, where as tkd guys just have somthing to prove.

syke wrote:

I don't think he should be hung out to dry but he should be made aware that what he did is contrary to everything that TKD stands for.

No its not, its against what tkd people would like to believe it stands for.

uberwolf

seeing as the University Observer knows now. Is it really the business of a newspaper to comment on this? We accept martial arts are taught and learned. My primitive understanding is that training is done to make defence an instinct in an 'incident'. Also your instinct should be honed to stop you fighting if you can avoid it (This is my reading of your posts Syke).

Once in a drunken brawl are you not entitled to do what you need to get yourself back out of it in as close to one piece as you can - so long as you didn't start it.

PhoenixRising

TwoKingMick wrote:

No its not, its against what tkd people would like to believe it stands for.

What? Maybe you'd like to tell us what it really stands for then?

Granted, I've only been doing TKD for a little over a year, but the importance of self-control is emphasised heavily. It's one of the tenets of TKD, which I think is what syke was getting at.

I'd agree with syke's attitude that walking away in 99% of situations is the correct course of action. You should not allow yourself to be provoked into fighting. Physical force should only ever be used if you have no other option.

Uberwolf,

My approach to my training in martial arts is that I see it as a fun activity and something I can do to be fitter, healthier and happier. Discipline (for the purposes of this discussion I refer really to self control rather than the ability of be controlled by authority) stems from being a happy balanced individual with nothing to prove. It doesnt come from being some po-faced warrior that takes everything deathly seriously! If you are happy in yourself and are secure then its unlikely that you're gonna want to fight anyone -youd much rather be dancing around lampposts in town like a drunken fool.

If someone attacks you, your goal is to get out of there in one piece (or to make sure that your friends and family are ok too!). Ideally you should use as little violence/force as possible. Its not an ideal world so you may have to use some REASONABLE force to ensure that you escape. Once your force is REASONABLE then I dont think that there is anything wrong. If youre getting in fights a lot then you have to ask yourself why!