Self Defence - but is it?

memphis

Ok, this is something that has been playing on my mind for awhile.

Take this scenario for example. A guy comes up to you after being out and he starts mouthing onto ya, then continues to push you about looking for a fight, if I hit the guy (kick, punch, or whatever) after he pushed me is this defined as self defence or have I actually technically started the fight despite him having pushed me about?

How would the law look on it?

I'm not saying this happened, but if it did would I be in my rights (legally, or under the training of TKD) to make physical contact after I get pushed about?

memphis

Musashi

My understanding is that someone "in your face" may be a threat but once they touch you it is assault and you can defend yourself.If you are still hitting him two minutes later while he's out cold on the ground, you are assaulting him.
Say he throws a punch and you block it,if he's not throwing another one then the assault has ended and you are not justified in hitting him at this point.
Sometimes a block and sweep will be all you need to make space to extract yourself from the situation.People saying "What if I can't get away and have to fight" are not really trying to get away ,or want to be told it's ok to go mad with every technique they know.
Fighting on the street is never a good idea, stay well out of it and go to tournaments to test your style Memphis!

Obscure

If it happens dont let the law get involved, after you've stopped him get out of there as quick as possible. Would not look good for you if cops come around the corner and see you standing over some bloke with a bleeding nose! It may have been self-defense but how do you prove it? Won't look that way to the cops!

loz_the_boz

assault doent necessarliy only happen when he hits you, assalut is the fear of your safelty or of others around you, if his verval puts fear in you then yo are entiltiled to defent yourself with reasonable force.

just done jury duty !

columok

Ask yourself:

Do you think that you are in danger ?

Do you think that your actions are proportional to that danger?

Thats what will be asked by the gardai and by the courts. Its all about reasonable force...

Now- why are these thoughts dwelling in your mind. Please tell me its not "hoping to get attacked so I can kick ass and impress girls" syndrome. Be smart and you probably wont get attacked.

dabhal

could you just walk away or are you more worried about your pride?

memphis

Ok, alot of interesting opinions floating about here, but to answer Columok, the reason its on my mind is cos it actually happened (despite I saying it didn't). I have a black eye since last sunday night week ago after I was jumped by a guy that was mouthing onto me about me doing TKD (donno who he was, but he seemingly knew me), he started to push me about and I smacked him one. I'm not happy about my actions, and the fact that I had a belly full of drink doesn't say much for my actions either.

I was just wondering if I was in the wrong, going by dabhal's advice I should've just walked away, but I didn't! We fought, he knocked me, and started to punch me and kick me in face while I was down, I didn't go to cop shop cos I was afraid they'd see it differently than it being self defence (which I have to say I partly thought myself).

Do any of ye guys get stick for doing MA, have you been in a simular scenario?

GuanYin

memphis wrote:

Ok, this is something that has been playing on my mind for awhile.

Take this scenario for example. A guy comes up to you after being out and he starts mouthing onto ya, then continues to push you about looking for a fight, if I hit the guy (kick, punch, or whatever) after he pushed me is this defined as self defence or have I actually technically started the fight despite him having pushed me about?

How would the law look on it?

I'm not saying this happened, but if it did would I be in my rights (legally, or under the training of TKD) to make physical contact after I get pushed about?

memphis

Walk away. Above everything else you learn in TKD, your discipline is the most important. Without it, you will never leanr anything and you will never progress.

If you were in that situation and my student and I learned you through a punch I would never train you again.

You have a moral responsability regarding the skills you learn. That responsability involves avoiding using them at all costs. The answer is walk away and feel satisfied you didn't have to fight.

Regarding the actual question, it depends on what level of skill the prosecution can intimate you have. If it is of a sufficient level over your victim/aggressor then they would suggest that there is little difference in your initiating a fight with a crowbar or knife in your pocket, seeing as you knew you had the upper hand.

But to be fair, I find it worrying you would ask such a question.

GuanYin

memphis wrote:

Ok, alot of interesting opinions floating about here, but to answer Columok, the reason its on my mind is cos it actually happened (despite I saying it didn't). I have a black eye since last sunday night week ago after I was jumped by a guy that was mouthing onto me about me doing TKD (donno who he was, but he seemingly knew me), he started to push me about and I smacked him one. I'm not happy about my actions, and the fact that I had a belly full of drink doesn't say much for my actions either.

I was just wondering if I was in the wrong, going by dabhal's advice I should've just walked away, but I didn't! We fought, he knocked me, and started to punch me and kick me in face while I was down, I didn't go to cop shop cos I was afraid they'd see it differently than it being self defence (which I have to say I partly thought myself).

Do any of ye guys get stick for doing MA, have you been in a simular scenario?

Yes you were totally in the wrong and completely irresponsible. You should have just walked away.

If you cannot act with discipline and control then you have no business setting foot in a martial art class, especially a TKD one.

columok

Ok Memphis,

It happened so that puts a different spin on things. You made a mistake and hit a guy. Its not the end of the world- you arent an evil student who should be shunned from the annals of TKD history. You got drunk, someone tried to start a fight with you, you hit him and then got pasted- SH1T HAPPENS!
The key for you is to learn from this experience...

1) How did he know you did TKD? Where you broadcasting it? Showing off (even subconsciously!)?

2) Did TKD work for you in a fight? Did you hurt your fist? Did you knock the guy down?

3) How did he manage to get you on the ground? Recommendation: Learn some wrestling or judo! (Or develop a mean thai clinch )

4) How did he manage to kick and punch you on the ground: Go and learn some BJJ, Judo or some MMA!


You can learn from this experience and you can improve your attitude, fighting ability and be a much happier person ORRR you can get paranoid, think everyone is out to get you, carry round numerous weapons and learn secret ninja death techniques. Dont sweat it dude- everyone makes mistakes. Show me one great person that hasnt. The really great ones learn from their mistakes, improve themselves and dont repeat them.

Take it easy,

Colum

GuanYin

columok wrote:

Ok Memphis,

It happened so that puts a different spin on things. You made a mistake and hit a guy. Its not the end of the world- you arent an evil student who should be shunned from the annals of TKD history. You got drunk, someone tried to start a fight with you, you hit him and then got pasted- SH1T HAPPENS!
The key for you is to learn from this experience...
...
Colum

In fairness Colm, thats a rather strange attitude. Yes learn from the experience, but if one of your students got drunk and hit someone would you not admonish him?

So far there have been no criminal convictions for assault implicating TKD in Ireland and its something I know many Sabumin are proud of.

I don't think he should be hung out to dry but he should be made aware that what he did is contrary to everything that TKD stands for. I have noticed the attitudes in younger schools (including UCD ones which I have observed on occasion) in Ireland do not push home the responsibility of the student.

columok

I just think that people make mistakes in everything they do and that is the only way to learn.

He was pushed first so its hardly a case of him assaulting someone since he could reasonably assume that the guy was out to hurt him- as he clearly was. I could understand indignation if he was randomly throwing digs in every direction but maybe if he had of walked away in this case he might have gotten loafed in the back of the head. His body perceived danger for a reason and he acted instinctively.

The man is sorry about his actions. Next time dont be a dumbass, dont broadcast the TKD thing, avoid the fight before it happens and have a good night out of A+E.

GuanYin

columok wrote:

I just think that people make mistakes in everything they do and that is the only way to learn.

He was pushed first so its hardly a case of him assaulting someone since he could reasonably assume that the guy was out to hurt him- as he clearly was. I could understand indignation if he was randomly throwing digs in every direction but maybe if he had of walked away in this case he might have gotten loafed in the back of the head. His body perceived danger for a reason and he acted instinctively.

The man is sorry about his actions. Next time dont be a dumbass, dont broadcast the TKD thing, avoid the fight before it happens and have a good night out of A+E.

Ok granted, but as an instructor should not the dictum "violence as the final resort" be our motto (paraphrasing Lao Tzu's "Violence is the Refuge of the Violent")?

Our instincts should be not to respond, to walk (or if you are in fear of assault, back) away from the fight. Pushing and jostling is not violent intent, its just provokation and we as practicioners of martial arts should be above that.

Musashi

OK, so you got in a scrap in a pub, no-one badly hurt,this time, so not too bad.
What was your analysis of the fight afterwards though? What did you do right and wrong? Why did he know you were a Martial Artist? Were you looking to "test" what you thought you knew in the real world? Hell,I've often wondered "what if" usually ending in me saving,and then bedding the pretty girl! (FANTASY)
Was he trained in anything himself? Was there a bit of pushy-pushy first where you could have de-escalated and walked away? Did you square off to him when it was "on",or worse, bow?? You hit him first? He shoved you first? Were you in fear of being assaulted?

Yes you were totally in the wrong and completely irresponsible. You should have just walked away.

If the other guy instigated this and was not taking "go away I don't want a fight" for an answer.Then further escalated with physical contact ,then I feel turning your back and trying to walk away would be extremely foolhardy.

If you were in that situation and my student and I learned you through a punch I would never train you again.

As my first instructor told us, because we learn MA we do not have less right to defend ourselves.If you were my student I would obviously have learnt a lot about you,your character, and how you act under pressure.If I was satisfied that you did not start this and were defending yourself,then you would be most welcome in class again.
The only fault I would find would be that my instruction had not prepared you to defend your person,pretty much the whole point of any "Martial" art style.I should have thrown in more scenario training to prep my students for people trying to sucker punch,to intimidate verbally or physically,"dirty" fighting,distracting you to gain that second of advantage,"woofing" or verbal abuse.The general precursors to a fight. We should have done unscripted defense from attacks from any angle from any member,two members,where they don't stop when you turn away,and where they do not use TKD style but just box,or thigh kick, or just come in whaling away.Basically the "Alive" sparring promoted by the MMA lads.
If we are not doing these things in class I would probably be doing you a disservice and you would be better off if I sent you to play Rugby, for example.

Did TKD work for you in a fight? Did you hurt your fist? Did you knock the guy down?

Did you hit him with your fist even? I know it's the default when under pressure for most people,but you should have been shown palm heel and arc hand strikes too,knife hand to the neck can be effective, as are elbows and knees when in close. Train with guys who practice other arts too.Learn how a thai boxer,a judoka,a boxer,a Karateka move and if you can ,why they do that!
Do not neglect the trapping,grappling,takedown and ground fighting, all are possible and even likely depending on your ability in the clinch and sprawl type fighting Just been learning a bit of this lately and it's fun! You'd think rolling on the ground would be a lot easier though!!
Right, that's my lot lads and thanks for reading!
To the Colms/Colums, my brother is working in Dublin so if I get up there I'd like to come train with you boys, being a bogger limits my options!

columok

Look at the context. Its late at night your drunk and on your own therefore pretty vulnerable! A stranger who apparently knows who you are has singled you out as a target because you do MA, they are shouting abuse at you and start to push you.

Admittedly violence is the last resort here (I agree with you there) but it seems pretty likely that the person is intent on doing you harm. Its not a random drunk that you can just sidestep as they have chosen you, a familiar target, to have a row with. There is intent in choosing you and obviously intent to escalate things to a physical altercation (pushing IS assault). I'm not saying that I would always punch someone here- rather I can understand how that would be the course of action undertaken.

columok

To the Colms/Colums, my brother is working in Dublin so if I get up there I'd like to come train with you boys, being a bogger limits my options!

I look forward to it Musashi!

GuanYin

Musashi wrote:

If the other guy instigated this and was not taking "go away I don't want a fight" for an answer.Then further escalated with physical contact ,then I feel turning your back and trying to walk away would be extremely foolhard

I've had two serious confrontations in the past couple of years. The first one was outside the palace where a very tall drunk guy kicked a homeless person begging, I stepped between them and told him to go away, he shouted and screamed all sorts of violents threats at me and pushed my shoulder, I stood my ground and stared impassively, even when he squared up to me. I didn't mouth, I didn't posture I just stood and stared, his friends came to pull him away at this stage at which point I walked away, I would have done sooner but was worried for the homeless woman. Noone lost face, noone was hurt.

The second time a group of teens in santry through a chip at me when I was at an ATM (my girlfriend was sitting in the car watching). When I turned to glare at them the lead thug squared up and mouthed off taunting me and pushing me, telling me to hit him. I just stood and stared and I think I smiled a little (mainly cos with all his friends watching and him getting frustrated I thought it was amusing). I remember he was an inch from my face and begging me to hit him. Very few people would have cared had I but why would or should I? In the end he got pissed off and his friend dragged him off, I remember watching them walk off and the idiot started on his friend in the group.

I'm not a big person, I'm not very intimidating looking and I'm different enough to be an easy target for harassment these days. But I know that there is absolutely no point or reason in hitting someone because they are a bit of an idiot. You only let yoruself down.

GuanYin

columok wrote:

Look at the context. Its late at night your drunk and on your own therefore pretty vulnerable! A stranger who apparently knows who you are has singled you out as a target because you do MA, they are shouting abuse at you and start to push you.

Admittedly violence is the last resort here (I agree with you there) but it seems pretty likely that the person is intent on doing you harm. Its not a random drunk that you can just sidestep as they have chosen you, a familiar target, to have a row with. There is intent in choosing you and obviously intent to escalate things to a physical altercation (pushing IS assault). I'm not saying that I would always punch someone here- rather I can understand how that would be the course of action undertaken.

Well I'm sorry to say I can't agree with that attitude at all and I'm really shocked by it. I HAVE been in those situations. Alcohol is no excuse Colum, my god, you instruct at colleges don't you? I sincerely hope you don't relay such a mindset to your students.

columok

Hang on Syke. I dont teach MA at college (wrong Colm)! I have never hit someone on the street in anger (drunk or otherwise)! Ive been in street situations before but I was never in this one so I cant comment hypothetically on how I would act. I think its a little silly to claim that you can do the same. The situation is unique.

I merely looked at the context of the situation and made a logical analysis of the individual's intent. My point about being drunk is that the guy was aware of his target's drunkenness- probably a good reason for picking them as a target. It is unlikely that he would have been picked as a target if he was sober. A predator looking for a fight, seeing someone they recognise, who is vulnerable is someone looking to do some harm. I never condoned the idea of hitting him, rather I looked at the situation from his point of view. He hit the guy because he was in fear of his safety- pure and simple. Its the way all human beings are designed -martial artists or not.

Colm_OReilly

I wasn't going to add to this discussion but seeing how people regularly mix up Columok and me, I thought I'd better. Colum is a friend and trains with me. While our viewpoints may be similar with regards ma training please do not take anything either of us say to be a representation of the others viewpoint. Colum does not teach to college students.

memphis,

To answer your originaly question according to the law students I know (who incidently also practice ma) they reckon the law will come down pretty hard on you if they know you do an ma, regardless of how effective that ma happens to be (just had to get that in ). Of course, if you're a chick, they're a lot more forgiving, what with rape being such the social evil and all.

Above everything else you learn in TKD, your discipline is the most important. Without it, you will never leanr anything and you will never progress.

On an more abstract note, creativity and a willingness to experiment are the most important prerequisites to learning. Discipline will lead to subserviance.

You can learn from this experience and you can improve your attitude, fighting ability and be a much happier person ORRR you can get paranoid, think everyone is out to get you, carry round numerous weapons and learn secret ninja death techniques. Dont sweat it dude- everyone makes mistakes. Show me one great person that hasnt. The really great ones learn from their mistakes, improve themselves and dont repeat them

I like this passage, could be used for a lot of things.

Our instincts should be not to respond, to walk (or if you are in fear of assault, back) away from the fight. Pushing and jostling is not violent intent, its just provokation and we as practicioners of martial arts should be above that.

Our instincts are based around the four F's: Fighting, Fleeing, Forraging, and Finding a Mate. You'll respond the most to Danger, Food, and Sex. So if you're in perceived danger, you'll become more *primitive* for want of a better word. You may attack, you may run. It's quite difficult to predict what anyone will do when they're in real danger or perceived danger.

And who says martial artists are above anything? We should, we all should be above foolishness, but the reality is we're not. Far from it.

A lot on this thread seems to be attacking memphis because he made a mistake. It is too easy to criticize people when you're not in the thick of it. I'm not saying we shouldn't offer advise,just that I think it's important to have an understanding of how someone could find himself in that position. Harsh scorning isn't going to do him any good, as he's clearly shock up over it and confused at the moment. Approaching the situation with a little compassion might help.

Memphis,

**** Happens, you got your ass handed to you. That happened once. How many times have you gone over it in your mind since then. How much energy have you put into it? I'd say a lot. All the while you're missing what's happening right now.

Take Care Man,
Colm

GuanYin

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Our instincts are based around the four F's: Fighting, Fleeing, Forraging, and Finding a Mate. You'll respond the most to Danger, Food, and Sex. So if you're in perceived danger, you'll become more *primitive* for want of a better word. You may attack, you may run. It's quite difficult to predict what anyone will do when they're in real danger or perceived danger.

Oh come off it. I'm a biologist and I don't buy that for a second. If you want to take evolutionary biology into account and put it into the context of martial arts, few animals are built for fighting. They are built for escape and ambush or defence. On an evolutionary playing field there is nothing to be gained by fighting so it would not be a natural instinct. The very animals that lead to many of the martial arts we study fight only in terms of pack ascendency or mating, most instinctively assess threats and will flee unless driven by a primal force.

A few pints and a bit of a taunt outside a pub are hardly a primal driving force unless evolution has really taken a siesta this past few thousand years.

As sentient humans, we are beyond that kind of primitive behaviour and this was the ethos of nearly every eastern martial art since conception.

I'm not going to go all Mr. Miagi here, but no grandmaster ever advocated martial arts in drunken brawls and I don't believe a UCD instructor should either. What would the UCD observer say if they got hold of that?

And who says martial artists are above anything? We should, we all should be above foolishness, but the reality is we're not. Far from it.

I do, and many greater people before me. Its part and parcel of what you learn. You're not just learning how to hit people. If you think you are, you don't know what you're doing.

A lot on this thread seems to be attacking memphis because he made a mistake. It is too easy to criticize people when you're not in the thick of it. I'm not saying we shouldn't offer advise,just that I think it's important to have an understanding of how someone could find himself in that position. Harsh scorning isn't going to do him any good, as he's clearly shock up over it and confused at the moment. Approaching the situation with a little compassion might help.

I'm more inclined to criticise him for the nature of his attitude in the thread than his actions, which are excusable but a lesson learned (the hard way). Had he walked away, and more importantly, had his instructor instilled the valuable importance of why he should walk away, he would have no injury and would have lost nothing. If he realises this, then at least the thread served a purpose.

Colm_OReilly

On an evolutionary playing field there is nothing to be gained by fighting so it would not be a natural instinct. The very animals that lead to many of the martial arts we study fight only in terms of pack ascendency or mating, most instinctively assess threats and will flee unless driven by a primal force.

Lions fight to become the leader of the pack. Those that win, make the babies. Those genes are passed on. I'm not a qualified evolutionary biologist but it is a hobby of mine. I like to read a lot on evolution, genes and memes. On another note, why would someone study animals to prepare them to fight. Quite strange if you ask me.

A few pints and a bit of a taunt outside a pub are hardly a primal driving force unless evolution has really taken a siesta this past few thousand years.

Perhaps I phrased that wrong. When we're attacked, or percieve danger, we react, we don't think things out. We fall back to basics. And sometimes, probably a lot of those times, we do things we later regret. Am I making myself clearer here?

I'm not going to go all Mr. Miagi here, but no grandmaster ever advocated martial arts in drunken brawls and I don't believe a UCD instructor should either. What would the UCD observer say if they got hold of that?

I don't recall advocting getting into drunken brawls but if I did, I'll retract it.

a) I'm not a grandmaster
b) Tell the UCD Observer? Dude that is just beyond silly. Tell them if you'd like.
c) It kinda seems like a threat now that I reread it.

Anyone my thoughts on street fights and what I coach go along the lines of this. They suck, you don't want to be there. You just wanted to have a few beers. You started chatting up some dudes girlfriend and **** you're in a fight. What do you do? You pay me to equip you with the tools to defend yourself.

I tell my athletes.

1. You don't want to go to the ground on the dreaded street. But you don't want to be in a fight either. Solution: Don't go to bars, where 95% (my reckoning) of fights occur. But there's beer and chicks in bars, so that's out the window. Don't associate with people who'll likely get you in a fight. And try to be aware of danger and avoid it.

2. Don't worry about the dreaded street that much. Train, have fun, use it as a vehicle for personal grow. Or not, whatever.

3. Don't get caught up in past mistakes or let you're ego get in the way of your learning/fun/development.

I do, and many greater people before me. Its part and parcel of what you learn. You're not just learning how to hit people. If you think you are, you don't know what you're doing.

Sports can be used as a vehicle for self discover, or it can be nothing more than a leisure time pursuit. Martial artists that lie to themselves with regards what they're doing and their ability make up all this jazz with regards to codes, honour, behaviour, tenets etc. It's not my job to make people better. Hell I screw up the most out of all the people I know. My job is to provide an errorless training environment that allows people to grow in martial arts and if they want, other sphere's of their life.

Thanks, take care,

Colm

columok

Syke,

I'm not trying to get personal here so forgive me if I offend you.

If you look back over Colm or my posts you'll realise that neither of us in any way condone street fighting. Just because we show understanding you choose to label us in such a way. You seem intent on casting dispersions on people's character from some kind of moral high horse which is a touch unfair.

Memphis came into this thread with clear feelings of guilt and remorse and yet you chose to chastise him and accuse him of not being "martial arts material" (I paraphrase). I try and understand his point of view and you think I possess some kind of "streetfighter" mindset. Colm does similar and you cast dispersions on his coaching ability and threaten to libel his good name. I appreciate you having strong morals but I think you should tone down your indignation- it seems a little disproportionate. Its also unfair to cite your own experiences to qualify you as a moral guardian- your situations are unique to you and concordantly not the same as those of Memphis. Different pro and antagonists, different situations, different variables and therefore different outcomes.

People make mistakes. Last time I checked martial artists are people. The day martial artists stop making mistakes is the day martial arts lose their humanity.

Live, learn, train, enjoy, smile!

Colum

dabhal

Quote

"I should've just walked away"


I think you answered your own question here, no-one else was there, only you know the circumstances and how you felt but I get the feeling you believe you could have walked away.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Really think about how you where feeling at the time, was it just pride that made you hit this guy?
Either way from what you said it's a 50/50 chance in a courtroom so just be glad it's over and make a decision on how you'll deal with it(or avoid it) the next time.

Dabhal

Clive

I'm not going to go all Mr. Miagi here, but no grandmaster ever advocated martial arts in drunken brawls

LMAO! Quite a few prominent martial artists are well known for loving a drink and a scrap.

The notion of martial artists being good, wholesome people is a modern invention of the Japanese (and Japanese influenced) post war martial arts.

Since TKD has been mentioned on this thread, Gen. Choi was a self confessed gambler and thief. He was gambling with someone, lost, then knocked him out and stole the money back, which he then used to go to Japan.

memphis

Alot of points being thrown around above, and the vast majority of them appear to be very negative of my actions. I accept that. I've already said I am not happy about what I did, and I also accept that I have gone and broken probably every rule there is in the TKD book.

The guy, who I didn't know, but knew me, and knew I did MA, I'm assuming he knew this because my picture has been in the local paper recently due to my trip to the EU championship in Holland last month.

I would normally not be the agressive type, and try to avoid a fight at all costs, but this was me walking home alone (when drunk) and a guy who to me was a threat mouthing onto me and pushing me about. I smacked him one, which I accept was way out of order.

For the books my instructor is not very happy about my actions, but has insisted that I take a long hard think about my actions and learn from my mistake like Columok, and Colm O Reilly have said above! Just cos I made a mistake doesn't mean I should not step foot in the dojang again surely?

I take the art very seriously (generally), get great enjoyment out of it, and give it my all during training, surely 1 drunken fight doesn't prohibit me from training TKD any longer.

Memph

blondie83

Memphis don't feel so bad about it, as someone else said earlier on sh*t happens, you just gotta deal with it. The important thing is that you learn from your mistake, at least that way you'll be better prepared should it ever happen again.

We train in relatively safe envirnoments, however when we face reality in real life situations such as this we will understandibly react differently. One of our instructors makes a point of putting us under this sort of pressure when he's training us. And I know you do react differently...I found at the start that I had a tendancy to run away while lashing out madly on all sides! By the end of the class I had realised that I was just panicing, and managed to work around it. Reminds me of some advice our career guidance teacher gave us while we were studying for the leaving - "If you're going to panic organise it!"

Syke bear in mind that Memphis has only been studying MA for about 9 months - while I think you've been studying for a good few years now (please correct me if i'm wrong on this). While he shouldn't have hit the guy, you have to take into account that he doesn't have your experience. I would imagine that the chances are that if this incident were to occur again, when he has his dan grade, it would go somewhat differently.

TwoKingMick

Of all the martial arts i've been associated with, ive found tkd black belts get into the most scraps, with the possible exception of boxers.
But then again i reckon the difference is boxers love fighting, where as tkd guys just have somthing to prove.

syke wrote:

I don't think he should be hung out to dry but he should be made aware that what he did is contrary to everything that TKD stands for.

No its not, its against what tkd people would like to believe it stands for.

uberwolf

seeing as the University Observer knows now. Is it really the business of a newspaper to comment on this? We accept martial arts are taught and learned. My primitive understanding is that training is done to make defence an instinct in an 'incident'. Also your instinct should be honed to stop you fighting if you can avoid it (This is my reading of your posts Syke).

Once in a drunken brawl are you not entitled to do what you need to get yourself back out of it in as close to one piece as you can - so long as you didn't start it.

PhoenixRising

TwoKingMick wrote:

No its not, its against what tkd people would like to believe it stands for.

What? Maybe you'd like to tell us what it really stands for then?

Granted, I've only been doing TKD for a little over a year, but the importance of self-control is emphasised heavily. It's one of the tenets of TKD, which I think is what syke was getting at.

I'd agree with syke's attitude that walking away in 99% of situations is the correct course of action. You should not allow yourself to be provoked into fighting. Physical force should only ever be used if you have no other option.

columok

Uberwolf,

My approach to my training in martial arts is that I see it as a fun activity and something I can do to be fitter, healthier and happier. Discipline (for the purposes of this discussion I refer really to self control rather than the ability of be controlled by authority) stems from being a happy balanced individual with nothing to prove. It doesnt come from being some po-faced warrior that takes everything deathly seriously! If you are happy in yourself and are secure then its unlikely that you're gonna want to fight anyone -youd much rather be dancing around lampposts in town like a drunken fool.

If someone attacks you, your goal is to get out of there in one piece (or to make sure that your friends and family are ok too!). Ideally you should use as little violence/force as possible. Its not an ideal world so you may have to use some REASONABLE force to ensure that you escape. Once your force is REASONABLE then I dont think that there is anything wrong. If youre getting in fights a lot then you have to ask yourself why!

dabhal

columok wrote:

Uberwolf,

My approach to my training in martial arts is that I see it as a fun activity and something I can do to be fitter, healthier and happier. Discipline (for the purposes of this discussion I refer really to self control rather than the ability of be controlled by authority) stems from being a happy balanced individual with nothing to prove. It doesnt come from being some po-faced warrior that takes everything deathly seriously! If you are happy in yourself and are secure then its unlikely that you're gonna want to fight anyone -youd much rather be dancing around lampposts in town like a drunken fool.

If someone attacks you, your goal is to get out of there in one piece (or to make sure that your friends and family are ok too!). Ideally you should use as little violence/force as possible. Its not an ideal world so you may have to use some REASONABLE force to ensure that you escape. Once your force is REASONABLE then I dont think that there is anything wrong. If youre getting in fights a lot then you have to ask yourself why!

I think that sums it up nicley. Great post

Clive

PhoenixRising wrote:

What? Maybe you'd like to tell us what it really stands for then?

Granted, I've only been doing TKD for a little over a year, but the importance of self-control is emphasised heavily. It's one of the tenets of TKD, which I think is what syke was getting at.

LOL @ the tenets of TKD. I was talking to another TKD blackbelt recently and between us we could name about two of them. Every time I try to think of them I end up with the "fruits of the Holy Spirit" from primary school.

No amount of tenets or dojo kuns will make a bad person a good person. No amount of training without such modern inventions will make a good person bad.

I've run into plenty of high grades who espouse such things, who are in fact, complete tossers. Even the benevolent Gen. Choi wasn't a nice man!

columok

Cheers dabhal!

Many grandmasters enjoyed a good scrap, were sociopathic nutjobs and generally did a lot that shouldnt be revered! Very few of them, having being worshipped for large portion of there lives, were the kind of people you'd want to be!

logic1

At the end of the day if you walked away relatively unharmed and no ones persuing legal action then it's a good day.

Sometimes you have to put your ego aside and think about the big picture. However I certainly wouldn't agree with Sykes opinion that every situation can be resolved without force.

He's posted about the confrontations he's had in his life and luckily for him it seems none of them have involved force, although it also seems he was faced with typical school yard bullies. Tough until someone stares them down. However what happens when you come across someone that's familiar, even comfortable with maximum force and isn't afraid of confrontation.

Try stare that guy down and you're checking into casualty. You have to personally assess every situation on it's own merits. This assessment takes milliseconds. Then you have to decide the best course of action. In your case you had a bit of a rumble and took a few shots then felt guilts about it afterwards. Maybe your ego was bruised a little. Take it as a learning experience.

And as for the comments that Syke wouldn't let a student back into his class if he had learned of his actions. Would you want to train under an instructor that admonishes the basic realities of the very subject he's teaching?

.logic.

memphis

Look people.....

Its really not that bad when ya think about it, I made a mistake I accept that, and came out with a black eye, no trip to casualty, no court appearance, it could have been alot worst, so no, I no longer feel guilty, and no, I no longer wish to beat myself up, and no I am not gonna be thrown out of TKD classes because I made a mistake. A mistake that I have now learnt from.

As a few of ye already said, sh1t happens!!!

Musashi

I took up TKD to be better at fighting, first and last. Isn't that what "Martial" arts are all about? ?They train you to fight, that's all.If I wanted to be enlightened I'd go to Yoga. To stay supple into old age I'd go for Tai Chi.
I wanted to learn to hit people hard enough to hurt them, without them hurting me. At the time in town the choices were TKD,Karate,Mugendo and Boxing.I went with TKD and a bit of Boxing.
Now I'm not a rabid street fighter cause I don't like scars or Jail all that much!
I don't go looking for hassle and do like to get drunk and mess about with my friends like everyone else.I would try to be a little more aware of my surroundings though and someone mirroring me as I toddle home would start me moving up the threat scale mentally.I'd try to keep an eye on them and what they are up to as well as watching out for any mates they may have waiting to ambush me ahead.A person then approaching me with verbal aggression like "I know you,you do that Tae Kwon Do,that's ****e! I'd bust you up!" ,will make me check who's around and what in hell is going on? This guy has singled me out and wants to fight by the looks of it.
I like Geoff Thompsons ideas on "The Fence" here.Hands up in an appeasing "guard",palms out and non-aggressive,"I don't know you and don't want any trouble" type of thing.You can even say this so any witnesses will say you warned the guy off.After this if he starts to put his hands on me or shape up to start swinging I'd be inclined to act to pre-empt him and resolve this situation with as little grief as possible.I don't want to hit anyone but damned if I'm letting them hit me because of some lofty ideal of what Martial Arts are about.I did not spend years learning this to be some drunken eejits punchbag!!
As for staring him down? A lot of guys I went to school with and grew up around ended up in jail.As years passed they went from being Gurriers to being Criminals.Stare at them and you challenge them to a fight, and they are not afraid of going back to their second home for another stretch.I don't want to get into some tit for tat ****ing drawn out engagement with these people or their mates because they have nothing to lose whereas I do.If you beat them in a fight they'll burn your car or house for example.This is why if I can I will walk away,or even run away.It is not worth it to me.
Sometimes however there is no preamble or interview stage and you are in a fight before you know it! Now you fight your way out because it's possible you could be killed now.Any physical contest like this has the potential to end in tragedy,I don't want to be the victim of some stupid accident or deliberate kicking either!

where as tkd guys just have somthing to prove

I dunno,I know a lot of guys who are black belts etc. and some are grand,some are dicks, and most just want a bit of a laugh and some exercise.Maybe up the country there's a different ethos about the whole thing, I don't know that many Dublin Dan Grades?

One last thing that's been bothering me about this particular altercation.
Memphis was the guy on the spot, and felt threatened enough that he threw a punch or whatever to get out of it.He then stopped?, and his opponnent came back into the fight and gave Memphis a bit of a pasting. If he was worth hitting why did you stop before you could make good your escape?
I'm wording this wrong but if you hit him and that was not enough to make a hole for you to get through and off down the road,why not follow up with a shove or sweep and make a good opportunity to get away?
I remember your posts on the tournament,was it a bit like that? Where this was an unfamiliar situation and lacking a plan to deal with it you "froze" while trying to figure out what to do?I'm interested to know why you think this happened and what you would do differently if it happened again?

Colm_OReilly

I took up TKD to be better at fighting

Then why'd you take up TKD?

I'm wording this wrong but if you hit him and that was not enough to make a hole for you to get through and off down the road,

Am I right in saying why didn't he run at the first opportunity? My thoughts on this would be that when that adrenaline dump hits you, it's fight or flight. When one is selected (and not by conscious, reasoned internal debate and then decision) you go for it.

Why didn't he continue punching away? My estimate would be that his training had not placed him under sufficient pressure to enable him to respond properly to an actual fight.

Peace Out,
2KR

GuanYin

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Lions fight to become the leader of the pack. Those that win, make the babies. Those genes are passed on. I'm not a qualified evolutionary biologist but it is a hobby of mine. I like to read a lot on evolution, genes and memes. On another note, why would someone study animals to prepare them to fight. Quite strange if you ask me.

No, alpha males arise due to a sociological imperitive. That aside Lions only fight when the alpha shows a sign of weakness, or when a stronger Lion emerges and this is a primal instinct for the good of the pack (better genes). Animals don't favour fighting if they can avoid it and few are built or designed for any real conflict. Its evolutionarily stupid to fight and risk dying. when you can run and pass on genes.

As for the study of animals, the modern martial arts we practice today all originated from various styles that were borne of mimicing grappling, strikes and holds performed by animals in the wild.

Perhaps I phrased that wrong. When we're attacked, or percieve danger, we react, we don't think things out. We fall back to basics. And sometimes, probably a lot of those times, we do things we later regret. Am I making myself clearer here?

True, but the essence of martial arts should be to discipline yourself against this thuggish behaviour, it should be part of the training.

I don't recall advocting getting into drunken brawls but if I did, I'll retract it.

a) I'm not a grandmaster
b) Tell the UCD Observer? Dude that is just beyond silly. Tell them if you'd like.
c) It kinda seems like a threat now that I reread it.

Inaction is sometimes almost as bad as action.

a) I never suggested you were
b) I never suggested I would, I don't like college media personally, however knowing how college bodies react, its not something you want them suggesting. I was merely suggesting you exercise caution.
c) It wasn't.

Anyone my thoughts on street fights and what I coach go along the lines of this. They suck, you don't want to be there. You just wanted to have a few beers. You started chatting up some dudes girlfriend and **** you're in a fight. What do you do? You pay me to equip you with the tools to defend yourself.

I tell my athletes.

1. You don't want to go to the ground on the dreaded street. But you don't want to be in a fight either. Solution: Don't go to bars, where 95% (my reckoning) of fights occur. But there's beer and chicks in bars, so that's out the window. Don't associate with people who'll likely get you in a fight. And try to be aware of danger and avoid it.

2. Don't worry about the dreaded street that much. Train, have fun, use it as a vehicle for personal grow. Or not, whatever.

3. Don't get caught up in past mistakes or let you're ego get in the way of your learning/fun/development.

This is interesting. I take it then you hold little regard for the philosophy laid out by General Choi Hong or the student oath of the ITF.

You can read it here :

Sports can be used as a vehicle for self discover, or it can be nothing more than a leisure time pursuit. Martial artists that lie to themselves with regards what they're doing and their ability make up all this jazz with regards to codes, honour, behaviour, tenets etc. It's not my job to make people better. Hell I screw up the most out of all the people I know. My job is to provide an errorless training environment that allows people to grow in martial arts and if they want, other sphere's of their life.

Actually, if you truely practice ITF, the it is your job to make people better, or at least to help them make themselves better. Again, perhaps read up on the philosophy of your ITF founder?

If you still disagree, then at least consider you are not teaching ITF, but merely thuggery.

GuanYin

logic1 wrote:

At the end of the day if you walked away relatively unharmed and no ones persuing legal action then it's a good day.

Sometimes you have to put your ego aside and think about the big picture. However I certainly wouldn't agree with Sykes opinion that every situation can be resolved without force.

Where is this opinion? Can you show me where I said every situation could be resolved without force?

I said violence is the last resort.

You can evade conflict 9/10 times without any martial arts training. If you have training you should be even more able.

Use of reasonable force when attacked is something that is sometimes required, but what you must examine is; "when do I need to use force"?

If someone pushed my shoulder or bumbs into me, no matter how threatheningly, I cannot believe that the situation has escalated to a point when you need to strike someone. Handbags I believe they call it.
mind.

He's posted about the confrontations he's had in his life and luckily for him it seems none of them have involved force, although it also seems he was faced with typical school yard bullies. Tough until someone stares them down. However what happens when you come across someone that's familiar, even comfortable with maximum force and isn't afraid of confrontation.

Try stare that guy down and you're checking into casualty. You have to personally assess every situation on it's own merits. This assessment takes milliseconds. Then you have to decide the best course of action. In your case you had a bit of a rumble and took a few shots then felt guilts about it afterwards. Maybe your ego was bruised a little. Take it as a learning experience.

As for whether someone is a bully or a real threat, well deep inside everyone is an ability to instinctively read a situation. Even those with the most aggresive of attention will back down if a seed of doubt is placed in their mind. All it takes is calm, control and confidence. Noone will start a fight that they think they may lose, and I would feel very worried about fighting someone who seemed not to feel I was a threat. Uncertainty like this extends through most species and at its most extreme its the reason a man with a chair can control a ring full of lions.

And as for the comments that Syke wouldn't let a student back into his class if he had learned of his actions. Would you want to train under an instructor that admonishes the basic realities of the very subject he's teaching?

.logic.

You enjoy putting words in my mouth. I wouldn't let a student who postured and bragged and DIDN'T learn back into a class. The initial attitude of the first post showed no indication of learning, which was what I based my disgust on.

However, what basic reality are you discussing? Fighting?

Does a soldier enjoy being in war?
Does a holy man enjoy sin?

Just because you deal in a business or are exposed or trained to something, it does not mean you should revel in it.

Musashi

Then why'd you take up TKD?

It was one of the four choices available and I knew the instructor.Also, having never done any sport I wanted to learn some of those flash kicks
No way in hell I'd try a jump spinning hooking kick in a points spar, never mind try to hit someone with it.I guess some folks out there might pull it off, bot not a high percentage option in my opinion.

Am I right in saying why didn't he run at the first opportunity

Yea, when it was obvious this was going south why not bolt? His condition may have affected his ability here though. Second, when the decision was made to strike,why not carry on until you could disengage and bolt safely? If he was worth hitting once and that wasn't stopping the guy.............. He was already getting himself wound up for a fight and now you've hit him enough to piss him off but not enough to stop him!
I've seen something similar in Tournament where one guy is lacing into the other,then just stops and gives his opponent a go.This is ok for practice in a friendly club spar once you distinguish that in a Tourny spar you stay going until he's out of your ring or down, or the ref has grabbed you and pulled you back!
Again, Geoff Thompson has some good ideas for dealing with Adrenal Dump etc. in his "Animal Day " training and "Fear is your Friend" books.

columok

Syke,

As for the study of animals, the modern martial arts we practice today all originated from various styles that were borne of mimicing grappling, strikes and holds performed by animals in the wild.

Some do. Some evolved through years of people fighting, figuring out what works, discarding what doesnt and improving the fighting system.

Hmmm will I imitate that crane and punch like he does or will I watch those professional boxers, who are payed to be the best, and do what they do?! I'm really torn to be honest!

True, but the essence of martial arts should be to discipline yourself against this thuggish behaviour, it should be part of the training.

Discipline schmisipline. The aim of any hobby in life is to make you a happier and more fulfilled person. Discipline makes you pliable to authority. I dont think that is a particularily beneficial attribute to have- unless you want to be a good little conformist and do what your sensei/military-officer/governmental leader tells you to without questioning anything!

This is interesting. I take it then you hold little regard for the philosophy laid out by General Choi Hong or the student oath of the ITF.

Why would Colm have any interest in General Choi or the student oath of the ITF. Colm you arent a closet TKD instructor now are you?

Also syke I'd scrutinise the actions of the good General before raising him on some pedestal as a moral role model. Some of us arent zombies so really dont appreciate "do as I say not as I do" philosophies. The man developed what is a martial art/sport. He isnt some kind of demi-god.

If you still disagree, then at least consider you are not teaching ITF, but merely thuggery.

Your reasoning is flawed- Colm doesnt agree with what I hold to be "moral" therefore he is amoral and thuggish. Maybe you should look at your own motivations before casting dispersions on everybody else. As a student of Colm Ive never had an altercation and never had any interest. I dont know any of his students that do. Moss, who posts here, is a TKDer and trains with Colm in UCD BJJ and will tell you what he thinks.

If someone pushed my shoulder or bumbs into me, no matter how threatheningly, I cannot believe that the situation has escalated to a point when you need to strike someone. Handbags I believe they call it.

Rubbish. I can think of plenty of contexts where someone pushing you intends to do you damage. Its all about context.

You enjoy putting words in my mouth. I wouldn't let a student who postured and bragged and DIDN'T learn back into a class. The initial attitude of the first post showed no indication of learning, which was what I based my disgust on.

I didnt detect any posturing or bragging in that first post. Oops, maybe my detectors are malfunctioning OR maybe you should hold the disgust in future, be a little less judgemental and show a bit of compassion! Surely compassion is in there somewhere in the TKD handbook!

However, what basic reality are you discussing? Fighting?

People get in fights pure and simple. People make mistakes pure and simple. People who get into fights make mistakes. A self defence instructor should be aware of this and be understanding!

GuanYin

Most martial arts today have evolved from other martial arts, but if you study the history you will find that all can be traced back to a handful of simple fighting styles that mimiced the instinctive stances and fighting patterns of animals. So while a martial art that exists maybe 70 years may not direct fall into my assertation, the arts from which it drew its being did.

I feel we will agree to differ here, I feel most of the arguments are a product of the western mindset. It is precisely why the standard of many arts is so much lower in Europe.

blondie83 wrote:

Syke bear in mind that Memphis has only been studying MA for about 9 months - while I think you've been studying for a good few years now (please correct me if i'm wrong on this). While he shouldn't have hit the guy, you have to take into account that he doesn't have your experience. I would imagine that the chances are that if this incident were to occur again, when he has his dan grade, it would go somewhat differently.

20 years, no correction needed. This is a fair enough point you make, and true, inexperience accounts for much and his instructors response is as I would expect.

The initial post asked "is it ok" or more is it legal, so I assumed at this point there was no remorse (its hard to be remorseful if you're still asking have you done wrong) thus I made harsh remarks. For the situation I saw, If feel they are right.

I was led to believe one of you was a TKD instructor, although I may have been mistaken.

Clive

syke wrote:

Most martial arts today have evolved from other martial arts, but if you study the history you will find that all can be traced back to a handful of simple fighting styles that mimiced the instinctive stances and fighting patterns of animals.

??? any sources or references for that?

Pankration, boxing, wrestling and muay thai - some of the oldest arts, have no such links that I'm aware of.

While it's true that much of the root of karate styles (and of course Korean karate aka taekwondo) is reputed to come from White Crane, it's a big jump between that and saying "all martial arts come from animal forms".

memphis

My first post was full of nothing but disgust and anger at myself for allowing such actions to occur, hence the reason why I never mentioned that i had actually been in a fight. The post was a post of confusion, and seeking reasurrance, and perhaps my points didn't come across very well for the simple reason that I was covering up the truth.... which again I'm not proud of.

At the end of the day I'd rather forget the whole thing happened, I have learnt from it I assure you of that. What happened will not happen again, I can vow to that, and if it does I will look at the situation differently, and most likely walk away.

And Syke, I don't mean to offend, but I already feel bad about the whole thing.... thanks a bunch for adding to that guilt! Perhaps next time you'll be more understanding!

I'm gonna leave it here, I've had this on my mind long enough and to be frank I'm sick of the whole thing, and don't wish to talk about it any longer!

Sh1t happens!

GuanYin

Clive wrote:

??? any sources or references for that?

Pankration, boxing, wrestling and muay thai - some of the oldest arts, have no such links that I'm aware of.

While it's true that much of the root of karate styles (and of course Korean karate aka taekwondo) is reputed to come from White Crane, it's a big jump between that and saying "all martial arts come from animal forms".

Pick up any good book on the history of martial arts and you can read of the migration of different fighting styles tracing back to about 1111 BC.

I don't know much about western wrestling styles art but certainly Taijutsu and jujitsu, the oldest of the modern grappling arts derived many of the leverage techniques from studying primates and these in turn spawned the likes of judo and aikido. Muay Thai evolved from a traditional thai system, krabi krabong, which was in place in the 1700's. Much of krabi krabong's unarmed fighting (which we now see as Muay Thai) was taken from existing open hand techniques which many karate styles also owe their lineage to.

I suggest if you are interested in learning on the subject you take any text book on asian socio-geographic history and a good history of martial arts book. You need to understand the climate to appreciate the reasons for much of the evolution.

GuanYin

memphis wrote:

And Syke, I don't mean to offend, but I already feel bad about the whole thing.... thanks a bunch for adding to that guilt! Perhaps next time you'll be more understanding!

Perhaps I would have been more understanding if you had been more open and honest in your first post.

As far as I can see all it does is ask are you legally in trouble. That doesn't tell me you feel guilty, just that you're worried about prosecution.

Dyr

syke wrote:

Pick up any good book on the history of martial arts and you can read of the migration of different fighting styles tracing back to about 1111 BC.

I don't know much about western wrestling styles art but certainly Taijutsu and jujitsu, the oldest of the modern grappling arts derived many of the leverage techniques from studying primates and these in turn spawned the likes of judo and aikido. .

Do you have a source for that?? According to draeger the term jujutsu didnt come into use until the edo period, the term taijutsu came later still IIRC. How does one come to the conclusion that they are the oldest of modern grappling arts?? What is your definition of a "modern grappling art" ?

IIRC. I've never heard anyone claim jj came from studying primates, and to be honest I think that statement is rubbish. Youd be doing well to find any japanese system, modern or ancient, that claims to have techniques adapted from animals.

syke wrote:

Pick up any good book on the history of martial arts and you can read of the migration of different fighting styles tracing back to about 1111 BC.

.

Care to name any of these books?? Is this a reference to the myth that all martial arts came from india originally via the shaolin temple?

Colm_OReilly

I don't teach TKD, I don't teach thuggery, I don't teach anything.

I provide an environment where people from all backgrounds and all motivations are free to discover for themselves what works in a realistic context.

Peace Out,
Colm

GuanYin

Bambi wrote:

Do you have a source for that?? According to draeger the term jujutsu didnt come into use until the edo period, the term taijutsu came later still IIRC. How does one come to the conclusion that they are the oldest of modern grappling arts?? What is your definition of a "modern grappling art" ?

Most modern systems using grappling only came into being in the last century.
Of the common ones being used the two I mentioned are the oldest with forms of modern JJ existing back in the 1600's at least.

But again many of these techniques are bastardised from older fighting styles still. If I'm back home any time soon I'll see what the books are and if they are published in English.

IIRC. I've never heard anyone claim jj came from studying primates, and to be honest I think that statement is rubbish. Youd be doing well to find any japanese system, modern or ancient, that claims to have techniques adapted from animals.

You didn't hear anyone claim that here either so at least you have consistancy. I said many of the leverage moves used were derived from studying primates and other animals in conflict. They were neither derived specifically for JJ, nor were they from that era, they may well, however, have been modified to suit the fighting style. Most techniques work on basic principles that can be applied across many disciplines and styles.

Care to name any of these books?? Is this a reference to the myth that all martial arts came from india originally via the shaolin temple?

I've read that and no I don't believe that everything came from Bodidharma's teachings. Its most likely that they evolved slowly over time and were used as protection against wild animals (using techniques observed watching other animals defend themselves). There is archeological evidence to suggest this and even some glyphs depicting it.

Again, most of the books I've read wouldn't be in english, but when I'm home again I may take some back and post english translations.

TwoKingMick

Most modern systems using grappling only came into being in the last century.

Ever heard of wrestling?