Ninjitsu

blondie83 · 10-08-2004 08:27PM

mcguiver wrote:

Thats interesting what you said about Mc Carthy falling out with the Japanese..... He was the first European to be graded in Ninjitsu in Japan as far as I can recall.
His display a few years ago in UCD and the first Irish Kumitea (Pardon my bad spelling) was typical of his way of thinking.... a real shop stopper...tons of skills while still able to have a good laugh at himself. Unlike all the usual plank chopping, high kicking stuff we've grown bored of watching.

Your right about the whole tradition/thinking behind martial arts, it should be a way of living, defence/fighting is just one aspect of it.

When did he do a demonstration in UCD? I'd like to have seen that. Was it with the UCD ninjutsu club, or as an indepentant demonstration? I've never heard of Brian McCarthy, but he sounds like like an interesting person. Did he train with Sveneric Bogaster or was he before/after him?

mcguiver · 11-08-2004 10:35AM

That exhibition was part of natioanl contest...which I think was won by Peile Reid?? UK professional fighter.

It involved swords, baseball bats, a Harley Davidson and a guest appearance by "Spock", complete with big ears.

Here's a littel wisdom from Brian I came across on a UK site:
www.ninjutsu.org.uk/history.htm

I strive to understand for the future by learning from the past. I make my judgements taking other persons viewpoints into account Will they do likewise............? I view my mistakes with a mixture of learning and humour Two of life's most essential ingredients I take my mistakes as practice for my success and my success as my corrected failures I understand and accept when I am wrong, Knowing there will be a time when I am right. I respect the old, remembering that once they were as I. I am excited for the young, for they are the leaders of tomorrow. I admire the people of the land, because I believe when my kind are no more They will help the world live on. I pass on knowing that once, I met you and you smiled To all my friends everywhere

Brian McCarthy

He is an interesting guy... check out his videos in most martial arts stores... very big in the USA, I've never heard a negative comment from him, which as you can tell from this forum is unusual for martial arts personalities.

Colm_OReilly · 11-08-2004 11:18AM

aikido for example aims to foster self harmony etc etc if I'm not mistaken

That may have been its aim but it point blank fails to do that in the instances I've seen. How can you go into any sort of philosophy or self-improvement if you're lying to yourself about the most obvious thing you do from the onset. Your techniques are all done in a static environment with agreeable participants.

It's funny how now we're best of friends with the former torchbearers of UCD Aikido.

Hey Baloo, we've finally got a permanent home, check out our new forum

Peace and Love Y'All
Colm

11-08-2004 02:13PM

Your techniques are all done in a static environment with agreeable participants.

Tom Oberhue said it best when he described it as training in a vacuum!

By the way Colm my new favourite coach ever is Tom "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" Oberhue.

Naos · 11-08-2004 06:23PM

columok wrote:

I dunno about martial arts as a way of living. I think life is a way of living and martial arts people get too hung up on this idea of being a martial artist. If you want to be a warrior join the army. Otherwise why if not for image??

I disagree with you. I believe Martial Arts is a way of living.

It teaches you to respect others because it teaches you to respect yourself.

It allows you to be come aware of your surroundings and situations, enabling you to confront them efficently (be they a fight or financial planning) through patience and placid thinking.

And finally, MA generally allows you to live a more peaceful and better life, equipping you with good fitness levels, tolerance and awareness.

Also, I've been told that everything in life has its own self-defense mechanism. Man has lost his, when he regains it, his mind can dwell on higher things..

Brian

vasch_ro · 11-08-2004 08:34PM

I actaully saw that demo in UCd many moons ago I think that was the very first international comp that Roy Baker ran wasn't it ?

But the demo by Brian Mc Carthy was very very good and very funny certainly among the best I have seen

11-08-2004 08:43PM

I dont see that training in martial arts gives you any more self respect than any intense sport. Why should studying martial arts be more valid than training at a high level in 100 metres, surfing, rugby, boxing etc.

A professional athlete (in my experience) puts more blood, sweat and tears into their sport than most martial artists. Is what they are doing less significant? The value in martial arts is not in the hypothesising but in the doing, like any physical pursuit. Martial arts dont magically bestow life-changing experiences unto the practitioner. Hard work does this. Buddhist monks experience enlightenment through hard work. It doenst matter what form that work takes.

It allows you to be come aware of your surroundings and situations, enabling you to confront them efficently (be they a fight or financial planning) through patience and placid thinking.

Any competitive and challenging activity could do this. Competitive chess could do this. (well maybe not the fight bit- though I hear Kasparov is an animal in a scrap

)

And finally, MA generally allows you to live a more peaceful and better life, equipping you with good fitness levels, tolerance and awareness.

I would question that. Fitness can be obtained from most sporting activity. I dont think that traditional martial arts lend themselves to peace and love. I think peace and love lends itself to peace and love. Be nicer to everyone. You dont need to know how to break arms to do that. Smile. No Dim-Mak required!!

Also, I've been told that everything in life has its own self-defense mechanism. Man has lost his, when he regains it, his mind can dwell on higher things..

Again, not really sure on this one. You put someone in a survival situation and youd be surprsed how easily man can self defend!

Colm_OReilly · 12-08-2004 07:53AM

People seem to put too much meaning into things, and can easily justify almost anything. The book by Thomas Gilovich - "How we know what isn't so : the fallibility of human reason in everyday life" is an excellent read and I recommend it unconditionally to everyone gives great examples of how we tend to see things that aren't really there.

I had a conversation with my mother, who is a maths teacher, a while back about why people are taught maths, particularly abstract maths that have little application to anyone but specialists in a particular field. She replied that it taught them logic and reasoning. So I asked, why don't you just teach people logic and reasoning, instead of expecting people to make the mental leap from maths to logical deduction and such?

People often think martial arts, and in particular Asian martial arts, will lead to some advanced mental state or spirituality. Why not just read some philosophy, Eastern or Western, and meditate on some things?

Peace Out,
Colm

mcguiver · 12-08-2004 10:52AM

MMMMMM,

This threads reaching a higher level... very impressed.
I suppose like any form of sports training, to do it properly we have to look at the bigger picture, attitude, diet, lifestyle etc. I supppose the great advantage of a defence/martial art skill is that it gives us all the confidence and training to know what we can and can't handle when things go wrong.

I think proper teaching methods do promote respect, after all we are borrowing our sparring partners bodies to practice, we are learning from our peers and usually end up passing our skills on to others.

Now back to work all of ye!!

Colm_OReilly · 12-08-2004 11:22AM

This threads reaching a higher level... very impressed

Thank you!

I supppose the great advantage of a defence/martial art skill is that it gives us all the confidence and training to know what we can and can't handle when things go wrong.

As long as you're training in an Alive environment (Progressive Resistance)!

Now back to work all of ye!!

Don't speak of such things!

12-08-2004 11:23AM

I supppose the great advantage of a defence/martial art skill is that it gives us all the confidence and training to know what we can and can't handle when things go wrong.

Would that mean that the confidence gleaned from training in a martial art is dependant on the effectiveness of that martial art? So if a martial art lacks effectiveness (such as Iaido) then what can be gained from it that cant be gained from another sport or philosophy book. What makes martial arts unique in this respect?

I think proper teaching methods do promote respect, after all we are borrowing our sparring partners bodies to practice, we are learning from our peers and usually end up passing our skills on to others

Surely this is the same for any team sport or activity requiring trust in another person i.e caving, climbing, kayaking, sailing etc. Is it necessary to go to a martial art to find this? If not then why do martial arts specifically?

Now back to work all of ye!!

Hey youre not my boss! Or are you? **** sorry boss!

dent · 12-08-2004 12:10PM

"Funny then that the traditional martial arts have a tendencey to make people think that they are invincible samurai/ninjas/monk/pirates. I havent seen any of that in the MMA world."

Very general statement to make. Seems to be if its not MMA its rubbish kind of attitude around. I practice Jujutsu and we fight standing, clinch and ground. Its a traditional school alright but if it doesn't work its not used. Techniques are practiced but sparring is used to see if they are valid. You certainly don't get the feeling you are invincible. Common sense is encoraged at all times. I guess its down to the instructer

12-08-2004 01:22PM

I dont think any of us our blindly pro MMA. I think thats a bit unfair. If you look through my posts you will consistently find me referring to Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling as the most effective training and delivery systems. Anything that trains alive against FULLY RESISTING OPPONENTS is gonna be beneficial in self defence/competition whatever! If you dont train it in an alive fashion then it just doesnt work. Its common sense.

When you spar, you dispel all notions of invincibility because the gaps in your abilities are as plain as the right cross veering towards your head or the thai kick crashing into your thigh. If you dont spar, then you start to imagine your abilities and the ego takes over, creating an imaginery picture of how good you are. This is very common in traditional martial arts from my experience and the experience of those I train with. This was certainly the way I thought as a TMAer. The lack of sparring was to blame for this in my opinion.

The following is an article on reasons for training in martial arts. Hope it at least challenges you!

Sorry if youve seen it before!
Straight Blast Gym: Motives for Training

PhoenixRising · 12-08-2004 02:11PM

columok wrote:

The lack of sparring was to blame for this in my opinion.

What about Taekwon-do? There's plenty of sparring in Taekwon-do. Would you rate that as being effective?

12-08-2004 02:18PM

What about Taekwon-do? There's plenty of sparring in Taekwon-do. Would you rate that as being effective?

Absolutely not.

I wouldnt consider it sparring as the rules imposed on it work against conventional fight logic. It becomes a game of tag chasing.

-Dont step into kicks

-Back off/reset after each kick is scored

-Emphasis on style rather than effectiveness

-No kicks below the waist (The no.1 target for most Thai fighters)

Certain TKD styles are now incorporating full contact sparring and guess what? What does it look like? Muay Thai minus certain elements. The reason is that the human body can only do so many things. Put two guys into a room fighting for a hundred years only aloud hit with their hands and theyll have a style evolve to be similar to boxing. Same with grappling. Same with football, surfing etc. etc. etc.

dent · 12-08-2004 02:27PM

"I wouldnt consider it sparring as the rules imposed on it work against conventional fight logic."

That can also be applied to MMA. Its not like you train on a street in Winter with broken bottles lying on the ground being attacked by Multiple oppenants. I'm not starting a street fighting debate because I don't personnaly want to or train that way. All martial arts have limits. You probalbly believe MMA provides the best or nearest solution. What happens when your sixty years old. My point is MMA might be the best solution for you. But it isn't for everyone and you should respect that.

Colm_OReilly · 12-08-2004 02:44PM

dent,

Please don't take this as arrogance on our part. Taken from the FAQ on our website.

There is also a common misconception that MMA is only for the super athlete, or those willing to bash someones head in. The only difference between an MMA fighter and a casual practitioner is the level of conditioning and intensity in their training. The techniques, movements, etc, etc can be practiced and trained in a realistic manner by everyone. By convention, Functional JKD is the term used to describe those who train in a realistic, Alive manner, but do not train at the Frequency, Intensity, and Duration of a competitor.

As an example, our Harolds X gym has about 70 members, about 7 are serious about MMA style competition. The rest all train with the "competition team" on a regular basis and don't go home all banged up.

You need to be in peak condition to play Soccer at international level. Yet everyone can play a game of Soccer. What's the difference? The Skill level of the professionals, there conditioning and training regimes. The Fundamentals remain the same throughout however.

Good points raised, though.

Take Care,
Colm

12-08-2004 02:49PM

Its not like you train on a street in Winter with broken bottles lying on the ground being attacked by Multiple oppenants.

Try this. Its by Rodney King, an excellent boxer and the man responsible for developing many of standup training methods. Sorry to constantly refer to SBG articles, but they straightened up a lot of ideas I had in my head once upon a time.

Street Vs. Sport -A Tired Debate

You probalbly believe MMA provides the best or nearest solution.

Exactly. Its far from perfect. But it represents the next best thing. The most perfect solution for me is to run

. Even that doesnt always work.

What happens when your sixty years old.

Helio Gracie is still rolling in his 80s (I think). Just because you train alive doesnt mean you have to train dangerously or with great risk of injury. Look at the Judo Masters Events with people in their 60s and 70s still competing!!

My point is MMA might be the best solution for you. But it isn't for everyone and you should respect that.

I do respect that. Its a debate about training methods and not a personal attack. If I have issues with Traditional Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu etc I'm not having an issue with the individual. You arent defined by your martial art. Its just a thing you do 3 times a week in the local school/college/town hall/whatever. If I dont like football, all football players dont get offended. This is a debate on training methods and therefore we should be as objective as possible about our own training methods and the training methods of others. Politeness could interfere with the honesty in this case!

PhoenixRising · 12-08-2004 02:54PM

But boxing for instance has it's own set of imposed rules which produces a particular style of fighting. Would you consider that effective?

Anything without a set of imposed rules is just fighting or brawling.

Like dent, I've also noticed that recently there have been a few posters on this board promoting MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, and rubbishing all other martial arts as being 'ineffective' or out-dated (I'm not just aimimg this at you columok and it's nothing personal

)

I've listened to the arguments for and against - and I would agree with you that MMA or a combination of Muay Thai & BJJ probably is going to be far more effective in a real fight on the street. However, what I think you miss is the fact that a lot of people don't train in a martial art to become some kind of competent street fighter or UFC champion. I certainly don't anyway. I've never been in a real fight in my life and I tend to do everything possible to avoid ever being in a real street fight. Speaking for myself, I train in Taekwon-do primarily to keep fit and because I find it interesting.

The point I am trying to make is that we all do martial arts for different reasons but we don't all measure our martial art purely in terms of how effective it is going to be in real street fight.

Colm_OReilly · 12-08-2004 03:04PM

I train in Taekwon-do primarily to keep fit and because I find it interesting.

That's cool, its nice to see people being honest with themselves. If this sounds condescending (as things often do on the net) then I apologize. Pheonix, in my experience, an awful lot of people have been led to believe that a load of esoteric patterns will make you invincible, and a great many propagate this fallacy. If you're training in certain MA's because they look cool, and you enjoy doing them, friggin excellent. You should have fun in what you're doing!

But if you're training primarily to gain combat effective skills, then which martial art you pick has a big impact on whether you achieve these aims.

But boxing for instance has it's own set of imposed rules which produces a particular style of fighting. Would you consider that effective?

Boxing is the best method of hands only fighting there is. 90% of the skills learnt by a boxer can translate over to Real Life/Functional JKD/MMA etc. There are obviously considerations that have to be made. There are also considerations in Wrestling, Thai, and BJJ that need to be made when the other ranges come into play.

Cool thread guys, I've never had a real time internet discussion before

12-08-2004 03:10PM

A little caveat before I start. Sorry if I seem arrogant or pigheaded. This is a good debate and you guys are raising some interesting questions. Thanks for keeping the grey matter moving. Also dont worry about picking on me. I'm used to it.

I just feel strongly about this stuff. I also love a good debate.

But boxing for instance has it's own set of imposed rules which produces a particular style of fighting. Would you consider that effective?

But when you add boxing skills to an MMA environment, the delivery system allows you to use your hands in the best way. It takes some adjustment to make the transition (watch early UFC to see boxers slaughtered) but a little work and you can use those skills in any environment. Boxing remains the best way of using your hands to knock someone out!

Like dent, I've also noticed that recently there have been a few posters on this board promoting MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, and rubbishing all other martial arts as being 'ineffective' or out-dated (I'm not just aimimg this at you columok and it's nothing personal )

Its not the arts that are ineffective, its the training systems. BJJ is nothing magical. It just so happens to have been trained right.

Also traditional and "out-dated" surely mean the same thing. If something adheres to a rule for traditions sake then surely it is outdated! Thoughts?

However, what I think you miss is the fact that a lot of people don't train in a martial art to become some kind of competent street fighter or UFC champion.

Like me? Im one of the people Colm mentioned. I train for fun, fitness and to a greatly lesser extent self defence! Dont assume that all MMA people are interested in being shaved headed cage warriors.

I've never been in a real fight in my life and I tend to do everything possible to avoid ever being in a real street fight. Speaking for myself, I train in Taekwon-do primarily to keep fit and because I find it interesting.

Cool. Good motivations. A lot of TKD people are convinced that TKD translates into an effective combat system. As long as nobody is fooling themselves then I say go ahead.

I got attacked by two guys in January. Wasnt pretty. Got my right eyelid torn open and it had to be glued shut. It made me realise that street fighting was something I had no interest in. If you can avoid it like the plague.

The point I am trying to make is that we all do martial arts for different reasons but we don't all measure our martial art purely in terms of how effective it is going to be in real street fight.

Cool again. But you have to evaluate the combat effectiveness if you are gonna market it as a self defence tool. If you arent being honest to people then...

Keep it coming lads. My work day is flying thanks to this quality debate.

PhoenixRising · 12-08-2004 03:34PM

Yeah it's definitely an interesting discussion. Appologies to the original poster for dragging this off topic. Maybe one of the mods could split this as it could probably do with a thread of it's own.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Pheonix, in my experience, an awful lot of people have been led to believe that a load of esoteric patterns will make you invincible, and a great many propagate this fallacy.

You're probably right. In my opinion this is down to the attitude of both instructor and student. Any TKD instructor who goes around telling their students that having mastered a certain pattern - they are now leathal weapons is either an idiot or just plain irresponsible (or both!). The attitude of the student is another factor because lets face it, a lot of people live in a fantasy world, and probably believe they are invincible after training in a martial art for a few years, whether their instructor has been feeding them that rubbish or not. We've all met a few of these people at some point!

columok wrote:

Dont assume that all MMA people are interested in being shaved headed cage warriors.

, I wasn't trying to imply that. The point I was making was it tends to attract people who want to learn how to 'fight'.

columok wrote:

Cool again. But you have to evaluate the combat effectiveness if you are gonna market it as a self defence tool. If you arent being honest to people then...

Well I would consider Taekwon-do a self-defense tool. Aside from the patterns and the regular Taekwon-do syllabus, my instructor teaches a few practical self-defense moves every few classes. Are you saying that Taekwon-do has absolutely no value as a self-defense tool?

It's good to see a bit of life in the martial arts/self-defense board.

dent · 12-08-2004 03:38PM

columok wrote:

Try this. Its by Rodney King, an excellent boxer and the man responsible for developing many of standup training methods. Sorry to constantly refer to SBG articles, but they straightened up a lot of ideas I had in my head once upon a time.

Again wasn't trying to start that debate. Read the article and that can be applied to several martial arts.

columok wrote:

Exactly. Its far from perfect. But it represents the next best thing. The most perfect solution for me is to run . Even that doesnt always work.

I agree.

columok wrote:

Helio Gracie is still rolling in his 80s (I think). Just because you train alive doesnt mean you have to train dangerously or with great risk of injury. Look at the Judo Masters Events with people in their 60s and 70s still competing!!

Think you missed my point. Circumstances change. Maybe they don't have arthritis. They are the exception rather than the norm. Maybe they will have to change there style in the future

columok wrote:

I do respect that. Its a debate about training methods and not a personal attack. If I have issues with Traditional Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu etc I'm not having an issue with the individual. You arent defined by your martial art. Its just a thing you do 3 times a week in the local school/college/town hall/whatever. If I dont like football, all football players dont get offended. This is a debate on training methods and therefore we should be as objective as possible about our own training methods and the training methods of others. Politeness could interfere with the honesty in this case!

I agree but I think you are being too general. There are Karate clubs out there that practice ground fighting. Kung Fu that practice clinch. So many different styles. Tae Kwon Do alone has at least three that I know of. Then you have the trainers. We are a Jujustsu school and one of the lads has a black belt in Sambo and Bumese boxing (forgive the spelling). Training methods vary from club to club.

dent · 12-08-2004 03:43PM

Colm_OReilly wrote:

dent,
Please don't take this as arrogance on our part. Taken from the FAQ on our website.

I dont and I understand not talking face to face can sometimes create that impression. I just feel you guys are being a too critical. You do seem very level headed and open to suggestions though which is great to see.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

You need to be in peak condition to play Soccer at international level. Yet everyone can play a game of Soccer. What's the difference? The Skill level of the professionals, there conditioning and training regimes. The Fundamentals remain the same throughout however.

Yes I agree but what if soccer is not my game bescause I hurt my foot. I hope I'm conveying that point.

12-08-2004 03:45PM

We've all met a few of these people at some point!

True.

The point I was making was it tends to attract people who want to learn how to 'fight'.

I dont see any difference between self defence and fighting. Theyre the same skills. I however do it for fun. Self defence doesnt concern me really.

Well I would consider Taekwon-do a self-defense tool. Aside from the patterns and the regular Taekwon-do syllabus, my instructor teaches a few practical self-defense moves every few classes. Are you saying that Taekwon-do has absolutely no value as a self-defense tool?

I think if self defence was your goal then you could learn those skills better elsewhere. I have seen some of the TKD self defence patterns/moves and to be honest I dont think that theyd work in a real fraca!

I only rate/criticise a martial art for its self defence skills when someone asks me! In a lot of previous posts people ask about whether Shotokan or Aikido are good for self defence and I have to be honest. In my experience, having also sparred with TKD people (and having done traditional Karate and Aikido) , I think time would be better spent doing Thai, BJJ, Judo, MMA etc. if self defence is your concern. Otherwise whatever floats your boat. The funny thing is that people always ask a) whats it like for self defence or b) how is it for fitness!

Phoenix, you should come for a roll some day. Youd probably really enjoy it. It could hopefully displace all those views of us being skinheaded meatheads

. Colm could also hold me down while you beat me up for being a jerk!

12-08-2004 03:52PM

Think you missed my point. Circumstances change. Maybe they don't have arthritis. They are the exception rather than the norm. Maybe they will have to change there style in the future

Maybe Helio could take up Thai in a few years if BJJ gets too much!

Also I know of plenty of traditional JJ senseis with dodgy knees at 40! :rolleyes:

I agree but I think you are being too general. There are Karate clubs out there that practice ground fighting. Kung Fu that practice clinch. So many different styles. Tae Kwon Do alone has at least three that I know of. Then you have the trainers. We are a Jujustsu school and one of the lads has a black belt in Sambo and Bumese boxing (forgive the spelling). Training methods vary from club to club.

Progressive TMA schools tend to be in the minority. Its good to see schools starting up standup, clinch and ground classes. To be honest, traditional arts that evolve are no longer being traditional (a good thing). They are evolving like they had to in the 17th century when considerably more was at stake.

Dent: I know you do JJ but would you be interested in coming to a BJJ or an MMA class. You and Phoenix could form a tagteam against myself and Colm.

dent · 12-08-2004 04:00PM

Yup I'd love to. Rubbish ground fighter and I'm always willing to learn. Better get back to some work. All this typing will give us all arthritis and our MA careers will be over.

PhoenixRising · 12-08-2004 04:00PM

columok wrote:

Phoenix, you should come for a roll some day. Youd probably really enjoy it. It could hopefully displace all those views of us being skinheaded meatheads . Colm could also hold me down while you beat me up for being a jerk!

, jesus I'd better start training! We should get Sky to pick this one up on pay-per-view!

12-08-2004 04:10PM

How about Monday or Wednesday next week.

Full details at www.twokingsmma.net!

Hope to see you guys there.

briano · 12-08-2004 05:07PM

TKD self defence patterns

The patterns in TKD are not, and as far as I know, ever meant to be used for self defence. They evolved out of the legal system in Korea which was pretty much "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" The patterns gave students a way of practicing movements as hard as they liked, without fear of accidentaly breaking an opponents jaw/leg/arm, and in turn, having their jaw/leg/arm broken. Its actually funny that you mention the patterns, as a guy was asked at my last grading what the "art" part of TKD was. The answer is, according to the instructor, the patterns. While they might look like just a set of movements students also have to learn about the pattern, such as the meanings of the pattern, what the diagram represents and what the title means in relation to the history of TKD and Korea.

It is also stressed in the class that the way we move in patterns is not the way we should move in sparring. That is beaten into your head from day 1. (Not literally of course, that takes place the first time you try and do a traditional reverse turning kick in sparring.) The way TKD teaches sparring is closer to kick boxing, except we don't have the point sparring system used in KB. Instead AETF rules use continuous sparring, which is quite unlike the impression columok has of it (except for the below the belt rule, about the only one you got right)

As you progress through the ranks, you learn more and more about how to apply sparring techniques in real life situations along with releases from holds and locks.

Ninjitsu

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