Ninjitsu

Bri

Hey,

Ive read all the stickys and so on but Im having a slight problem regarding ninjitsu info: theres none on the web! I dont want to buy a book I just want to see more about it - Im abroad at the mo so cant visit any clubs.

Anyone like to explain what the training is like, especially starting off.
Is there sparring? How are the techniques practised 'in the air' or in slow motion or in an attacker-defender real-time style? Is it too hardcore for the latter option?
Do many Irish clubs teach the extreme elements like fighting in the dark and advanced weaponary?

The UCD club website is barely a website at all...



Thanks in advance.:ninja:

Colm_OReilly

Columok has trained with the UCD Ninjitsu club, I'm sure he'll give you an honest review of them.

For the lighter side of being a ninja, check out www.realultimatepower.net

Peace and Love Y'All

Colm

Bri

Thanks!

columok

in an attacker-defender real-time style?

If by real time you mean with resistance from a training partner then no. If you want that try Boxing,Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo etc.

Is it too hardcore for the latter option?

Please explain!

Do many Irish clubs teach the extreme elements like fighting in the dark and advanced weaponary?

Fighting in the dark? If you cant go head to head with a resisting opponent in the light the last thing you need is to turn the lights off!

Advanced weaponry. Youll learn to do stuff that looks cool, but nothing that will let you fight an armed attacker. To test get a mate to attack you with a magic marker and see how marked you are. he shouldnt hold back or telegraph but should be trying to stab you!

The UCD club website is barely a website at all...

think its just a yahoo user group!!


If you want more info PM me or ask more specific questions!

GuanYin

Ninjitsu was originally an overall representation of 11 areas of expertise that range from basic meditation, to weapons mastery. Included were such arts as concealment, stategy, stealth, chemistry, marksmanship and orienteering.

Today, the diluted Ninjitsu that is taught in most european schools is little more than Taijutsu, a japanese martial art geared towards close quaters combat and basic mastery of several weapons.

Most of the cleverness of what made ninjitsu so legendary has been lost so you will rarely find anything here that will represent the cartoon image you see on TV.

Bri

Syke: Thanks for the info. - thats what I thought it might be like.

columok:
Re: Too harcore - like if the moves are too dangerous to practise at speed, face-to-face?

Re: Fighting in the dark - Keeps coming up in literature online; just using it as an example of how much unusual fighting elements involved in Ninjitsu.

Re: Advanced Weaponary - what do you mean? Are you saying your just taught to show off, spinning the weapons but never actually learning how to attack with them?

Re: UCD online - yeah theres only the user group and the official UCD sport link, neither explain much - even the clubs details, costs and levels, etc.
(Im a UCD student)

Thanks for the help.
:ninja:

GuanYin

Originally posted by Bri
Re: Fighting in the dark - Keeps coming up in literature online; just using it as an example of how much unusual fighting elements involved in Ninjitsu.

I never learned anything specifically about fighting in the dark and never once was blindfolded against an opponent.

These are myths.

What I did learn would have been strategy and surveillence techniques that can be applied at night, such positioning your opponent between you and the light source and learning to use shadow and light to measure the positions of distance of people and objects out of your line of vision (which I still instintively do today).

As for Advanced weaponry, firstly, the original idea was to become proficient in as many weapons as possible. Original ninjitsu never taught any fancy weapons tricks nor did they have the elegant cermonial weapons you see today. Weapons were just tools of the trade with no special significance and the idea was to be able to turn anything into a weapon.

Although that last basic premise has seen itself come into many martial arts and self defence courses, the showboating seen in many classes is as unrelated to the reality of Ninjitsu as walking on water is.

Because thee is no reason to teach students how to fight each other and to do so may very well be illegal, if not at least have serious legal implications, I imagine that the display weapons training is the norm, in Ireland at least.

columok

Re: Too harcore - like if the moves are too dangerous to practise at speed, face-to-face?

No such thing in my experience. Usually if you hear this run a mile. With training equipment available today e.g. head/eye protection. You should be able to spar most "lethal" techniques. If you cant spar it then you wont be able to use it in a fight! Hardcore is the stuff you can use on a non resisting attacker!!

Re: Fighting in the dark - Keeps coming up in literature online; just using it as an example of how much unusual fighting elements involved in Ninjitsu.

As before you need to know how to fight before you introduce the dark. Also why would you need to know this kinda stuff? Id rather know how to speak French, paint, sail a boat etc. Surely its just being able to play ninja with your mates!!

Re: Advanced Weaponary - what do you mean? Are you saying your just taught to show off, spinning the weapons but never actually learning how to attack with them?

Yep. No reason why you couldnt spar with weapons. Kendo is an example of how to adapt weapons training safely to involve sparring! Anything else is just spinning. Great for scaring someone but got forbid they try and hit you with their swords. Then you need the kind of timing you only get from sparring!

Im in UCD too. Would you consider giving UCD Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a try? Id also recommend UCD: Boxing, Wrestling , Judo. If you wanna learn how to fight, that is.

GuanYin

Originally posted by columok
Great for scaring someone but got forbid they try and hit you with their swords. Then you need the kind of timing you only get from sparring!

Which might be, perhaps, why most people train with a bokken?

Seion

I have some experience with ninjutsu, or budo taijutsu as we also call it, so I can probably give some indications of the kind of things taught/practiced.

I don't know anything about the UCD club, or even who the teacher is, but I would encourage the original poster to look at several martial arts before deciding on one to practice, and even then, to look at several clubs that practice that art. Martial arts clubs are usually reflections of the person who runs them. In the Bujinkan, there is a tongue-in-cheek saying 'students get the teacher they deserve, and vice versa'. Caveat Emptor.

It's also worth noticing that quality control can vary a fair bit in the Bujinkan system - some teachers are absolutely excellent, and have a really good grasp of what the system is all about, and others aren't and don't. The head teacher of the style allows teachers a lot of leeway in how they run their dojo, but a fair indication of things is how often the teacher travels to Japan to train. (In other words, are they a student first, and a teacher second sort of thing.)

As to what 'ninjutsu' is, it's worth pointing out that the vast majority of people, including many people teaching it, don't really understand how the system fits together.

In the Bujinkan Dojo, we practice a martial art sometimes called ninjutsu or ninpo taijutsu, but officially called budo taijutsu. This art is an amalgamation of nine koryu, or pre-1870's martial arts ryuha or schools. Each of these nine schools has a broad base of fighting skills, but also has a particular thing it was known for. For example, the Takagi Yoshin Ryu is an old school of jujutsu, but it developed at a time in Japanese history when the country was mostly peaceful, so it presumes the person is not wearing yoroi (armour). It was also used at one point as a school of bodyguarding, and as a result, the kata, or fixed two man techniques that make up the cannon of the school reflect that. It has face-to-face techniques, but it also has kata in which the person performing the technique is intervening between two other parties, so he is approaching the attacker from behind and subduing him. This school is purely a jujutsu school and doesn't have any weapon arts attached to it, or at least it doesn't today.

However, the Kukishin Ryu, is what is called a sogo bujutsu, or complete system and it comes from a time when the kuki family actively engaged in battlefield combat. It contains two unarmed fighting systems that use the same kata - one presumes you and the other guy are wearing armour, and then as time moved on these kata were slightly changed to presume that armour isn't being worn. The system also contains sword fighting, staff fighting, halbard fighting and every other skill a soldier would have required in 1600's Japan. It even contains a body of knowledge designed to be used by commanding officers such as how to structure supply lines, use mounted troops and even design castles in a strategically sound way. Obviously, today things like this are more interesting from a historical perspective, but this might offer an insight into the breadth of knowledge contained in these old schools.

The Bujinkan is mostly known as a school of ninjutsu today, probably because the skills outlined above are found in other old schools in Japan, whereas ninjutsu as a self contained skill is much more unusual, and the vast majority of schools practicing it died out due to lack of interest and frankly, lack of need for their services. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu today in truth contains little physical ninjutsu in its practices, and is best seen as a sophisticated form of armed skills and jujutsu. The system does contain this information, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s just not that important, and most of it is of little use as anything other than a historical curiosity due to the passing of time and the advent of technology. (At a time when there was no electricity, sneaking around in the dark for example was a very practical thing to teach espionage agents – it’s less so today. Ditto herbal remedies required by agents living in the field – there are apparently recipes for pain killers and the like in the scrolls for these schools, but when asked about it, Hatsumi Sensei replied it would be better to go to the chemist down the road. That way, you probably won’t poison yourself.)

If you are really interested in this kind of stuff today, then a career in the military would probably be a good idea.

Seion

Which might be, perhaps, why most people train with a bokken?

Yes. We actually use a type of padded sword called a fukoro shinai - like a kendo shinai except the whole thing is encased in soft leather. This allows us to hit full force and speed at each other - it stings but you don't get hurt.

columok

Which might be, perhaps, why most people train with a bokken?

Full contact bokken training? Are you mad Syke? Who are these "most people"? I have studied Aiki-ken and Kashima Shin Ryu Iaido and I have never seen full contact bokken training. Maybe drills with full co-operation. To do full contact sword work you need to use a shinai! An oak bokken would split skulls!

If you are really interested in this kind of stuff today, then a career in the military would probably be a good idea.

Damn right. Otherwise you are just make believing being a soldier.

This allows us to hit full force and speed at each other - it stings but you don't get hurt.

Good idea, but do you guys not need armor (more specifically eye protection)?

Seion

Good idea, but do you guys not need armor (more specifically eye protection)?

In the past, we've used motorcycle helmets, but unfortunately full armour is horrendously expensive and kendo armour is pretty expensive as well. This isn't the main focus of our activities so it's not such a huge issue. Sword fighting tends to be over quite quickly, two to three moves at most. The main targets tend to be the hands and the backs of the knees and the head (as I'm sure you know if you have practiced Kashima Shin Ryu - did you do that in Ireland? I wasn't aware there was anyone qualified to instruct here?) We tend to get away by being careful although padding up the hands helps a fair bit. Most of us have to use our hands to work for a living and broken fingers don't help

columok

Mr John Rogers 5th Dan Aikikai (www.aikido.ie) would be a good man to talk to re Kashima Shin Ryu. It was taught to us to complement our Aiki-ken sword work. Also other instructors have been brought over for seminars for us. John teaches it in courses most weekends- not sure about the availability of pure Kashima Shin Ryu though!

Hope that helps.

Kendo armor is mega expensive, as you say, so good to hear the inventiveness!!:)

Hands are kinda useful in day to day life!;)

GuanYin

Originally posted by columok
Full contact bokken training? Are you mad Syke? Who are these "most people"? I have studied Aiki-ken and Kashima Shin Ryu Iaido and I have never seen full contact bokken training. Maybe drills with full co-operation. To do full contact sword work you need to use a shinai! An oak bokken would split skulls!

Strangely, I trained with a bokken (and full body armour) when I was a teen. I never took part in full contact sparring with one mind you, but I only once was injured in weapons training and that was, with a kosh.

If I recall correctly, initially the sheath the bokken in foam, but remove that once your handling is up to scratch, to allow you develop speed.

I'm quite adept with most sharp and blunt instruments these days, but then again I trained under eastern tutalidge in the 80's so I dont know what they do here.

columok

Strangely, I trained with a bokken (and full body armour) when I was a teen. I never took part in full contact sparring with one mind you, but I only once was injured in weapons training and that was, with a kosh.

Are there not serious injuries or is the body armour comprehensive.

I'm quite adept with most sharp and blunt instruments these days, but then again I trained under eastern tutalidge in the 80's so I dont know what they do here.

Would you be adept at not being hit i.e. would you be able to spar with full resistance similarily to Kendo with Sai, Tonfat etc and not get hit. Or would you be mainly focused on offence?

In my mind, correct me if Im wrong, with weapons work, not getting hit is more important in training than hitting,hitting,hitting.

GuanYin

Originally posted by columok
Are there not serious injuries or is the body armour comprehensive.



Would you be adept at not being hit i.e. would you be able to spar with full resistance similarily to Kendo with Sai, Tonfat etc and not get hit. Or would you be mainly focused on offence?

In my mind, correct me if Im wrong, with weapons work, not getting hit is more important in training than hitting,hitting,hitting.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I've never had much cause outside of a training hall to use a weapon, nor would I be inclined to.

The style of fighting I learned (which was probably basd more on traditional ninjitsu with a mik of traditional Korean weapon arts - Han Kuk Mu Ki Do) focused on the quick and easy win. Parry and block techniques and countering would have been a heavy part of it. But to be perfectly honest, its a bit of a given saying that "not getting hit" is important, in any fighting technique...... (unless, it seems, you are in WWF).

The armour was strong enough to take the brunt of a blow, but light enough to allow full movement. A blow would sting though and concusions were not unknown.

Bri

Thank you for all the feedback. The fighting in the dark etc. was really me just sussing out how far this art goes in todays world. Ive no particular desire to learn it for daily life and even less desire to join the army!

Anyway the whole thing still intrigues me...so can you suggest clubs around the south dublin area?

Again; the feedback is much appreciated!

P.S. Any idea about tutition costs? esp. in UCD

columok

The distinct lack of any ninjas stepping forth and offering classes might signal the "availability" of classes. I know the ninjas train tuesday nights in UCD. Classes are pretty cheap.

Im in UCD too, so if you come around to the various stands during the sports Expo you can get all the details from the ninjas or other MA clubs. I'll be at the BJJ stand during the Expo. Id seriously recommend that you do BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing or Judo but really its up to yourself. My understanding of the UCD club is that it teaches what seems to be Taijutsu and doesnt seem to be particularily traditional or weapons orientated.

Best of luck with it if thats what you want to do. PM me or post again if you have any further questions. I tend to be less diplomatic/more honest in my PMs.

blondie83

Last year it was €10 a year to train with the UCD club. As far as I know it's pretty much the same price with all the clubs there

Bri

Ok cheers for all that. Im gonna do some thinking and may well be back to PM you closer to the time.

Thanks guys!

columok

No worries. Something may provoke a bit of thought.

An article I found to be excellent at examining motives for training in martial arts.

SBG: Motive Article

mcguiver

Ninjitsu,

I just came accross your thread,
Ninjitsu is indeed a mixture of all sorts of techniques.

The man to talk to would be Brian Mc Carthy, his dojo is on Parnell Street,
THE HOMBU DOJO (The humble Dojo). I trained with him for many years, he teaches many techniques and has some very "unusual" training sessions.
He mixes the training up quite a bit, most real fights start with a grab or a push... so thats the angle he comes from... when was the last time a brawl started with a a chop at eye level or a lovely kick to your upper body??

Very practical, very usefull. Like any GOOD teacher he will explain that all forms of self defense have their good points. If you come across a teacher that disrespects others/ their techniques stay clear. I found Brian attracted a lot of proffessionals to his sessions. I've had the pleassure of knowing lots of Irelands senior martial arts personaliities.... Brians one of the best.

Colm_OReilly

Hey McGuiver,

Where'd you train at?

Peace Out,
Colm

columok

McGuiver,

Not meaning to be picky but Hombu Dojo generally means headquarters or main dojo, rather than humble dojo.

most real fights start with a grab or a push

Dont know about that. Most "real" fights start with someone having decked you before you even realise that youre in a fight. Any fight involving squaring off or pushing can probably be gotten out of by just walking away.

Like any GOOD teacher he will explain that all forms of self defense have their good points.

Do they? Ive seen some pretty atrocious self defence before.

mcguiver

My apologies if my understanding of hombu is incorrect.

My experience of fights are that they start with a push or a grab... but thats only my experience... your right though...a lot of situations are blatant attacks, bottle, stool etc. from behind, I'm speaking more from the point of being employed to deal with situations, so walking away isn't an option in those circumstances.
That particular dojo teaches techniques that involve starting flat on your back etc. I've also see him set up bar scenes, knife attacks, baseball bats etc.

I've always been taught to respect all techniques. Depending on your body type, fitness, situation etc. some are more usefull than others. How some are taught is another thing altogether.... but it's not my place to comment on them.

columok

You hit it on the head there! Its not the technique- its how its taught and very importantly how its trained. If its not trained against resistance, motion and timing well... its not gonna be much good to you in the unforgiving real world. Especially at three in the morning in temple bar, when youve had to much to drink- the most likely time someones gonna start a "fight" with you.

My experience of fights is one guy running at me, I blocked his punch and clinched while his mate opened up my right eye. A fairly common fight situation.

mcguiver

I'd agreed with you there on everything, bad teaching, bad training, bad attitude....it all adds up.

Colm OReilly...

I trained with Brian for years, and still deal with a few of his instructors, so I get to do a little sparring now and then with them, just to prove how much I need to train more!

vasch_ro

I think if some one is spoiling for a fight they will try and escalate the situation normal by verbals or physical contact such as a shove.

Brian Mc Carthy no longer trains in Classicla Ninjitsu I think didn't he fall out with the Japanese guy ? I think he was one of the first guys to bring ninpo to Europe along with some swedish guy ?

and sorry colum I do not have National geographic.

Lets remember its not the aim of all martial arts to make u into a killing machine
aikido for example aims to foster self harmony etc etc if I'm not mistaken

and if all else fails you could always check out those old role playing books "The Way of the Tiger " they even have a list of moves at the front my own personal favourite being the teeth of the tiger !

mcguiver

Thats interesting what you said about Mc Carthy falling out with the Japanese..... He was the first European to be graded in Ninjitsu in Japan as far as I can recall.
His display a few years ago in UCD and the first Irish Kumitea (Pardon my bad spelling) was typical of his way of thinking.... a real shop stopper...tons of skills while still able to have a good laugh at himself. Unlike all the usual plank chopping, high kicking stuff we've grown bored of watching.

Your right about the whole tradition/thinking behind martial arts, it should be a way of living, defence/fighting is just one aspect of it.

columok

I think if some one is spoiling for a fight they will try and escalate the situation normal by verbals or physical contact such as a shove.

Obviously this is more your bag John but real self defence is about being aware, being healthy and being good at running. I realise in your situation its a bit different but I suppose thats were Greco would come in. SLAM!!

and sorry colum I do not have National geographic.

Youre a big tease posting that schedule...

Lets remember its not the aim of all martial arts to make u into a killing machine

Funny then that the traditional martial arts have a tendencey to make people think that they are invincible samurai/ninjas/monk/pirates. I havent seen any of that in the MMA world.

Also Aikido aims to foster harmony and yet I have seen very little harmony in it. In fact BJJ is what Aikido should be about. Fun, gentle, harmonius but actually in action rather than stagnating in pools of tradition. Confronting strength and moving around it, harmonising etc.

I dunno about martial arts as a way of living. I think life is a way of living and martial arts people get too hung up on this idea of being a martial artist. If you want to be a warrior join the army. Otherwise why if not for image??

blondie83

mcguiver wrote:

Thats interesting what you said about Mc Carthy falling out with the Japanese..... He was the first European to be graded in Ninjitsu in Japan as far as I can recall.
His display a few years ago in UCD and the first Irish Kumitea (Pardon my bad spelling) was typical of his way of thinking.... a real shop stopper...tons of skills while still able to have a good laugh at himself. Unlike all the usual plank chopping, high kicking stuff we've grown bored of watching.

Your right about the whole tradition/thinking behind martial arts, it should be a way of living, defence/fighting is just one aspect of it.

When did he do a demonstration in UCD? I'd like to have seen that. Was it with the UCD ninjutsu club, or as an indepentant demonstration? I've never heard of Brian McCarthy, but he sounds like like an interesting person. Did he train with Sveneric Bogaster or was he before/after him?

mcguiver

That exhibition was part of natioanl contest...which I think was won by Peile Reid?? UK professional fighter.

It involved swords, baseball bats, a Harley Davidson and a guest appearance by "Spock", complete with big ears.

Here's a littel wisdom from Brian I came across on a UK site:
www.ninjutsu.org.uk/history.htm


I strive to understand for the future by learning from the past. I make my judgements taking other persons viewpoints into account Will they do likewise............? I view my mistakes with a mixture of learning and humour Two of life's most essential ingredients I take my mistakes as practice for my success and my success as my corrected failures I understand and accept when I am wrong, Knowing there will be a time when I am right. I respect the old, remembering that once they were as I. I am excited for the young, for they are the leaders of tomorrow. I admire the people of the land, because I believe when my kind are no more They will help the world live on. I pass on knowing that once, I met you and you smiled To all my friends everywhere

Brian McCarthy

He is an interesting guy... check out his videos in most martial arts stores... very big in the USA, I've never heard a negative comment from him, which as you can tell from this forum is unusual for martial arts personalities.

Colm_OReilly

aikido for example aims to foster self harmony etc etc if I'm not mistaken

That may have been its aim but it point blank fails to do that in the instances I've seen. How can you go into any sort of philosophy or self-improvement if you're lying to yourself about the most obvious thing you do from the onset. Your techniques are all done in a static environment with agreeable participants.

It's funny how now we're best of friends with the former torchbearers of UCD Aikido.

Hey Baloo, we've finally got a permanent home, check out our new forum

Peace and Love Y'All
Colm

columok

Your techniques are all done in a static environment with agreeable participants.

Tom Oberhue said it best when he described it as training in a vacuum!

By the way Colm my new favourite coach ever is Tom "NOOOOOOOOOOO!" Oberhue.

Naos

columok wrote:

I dunno about martial arts as a way of living. I think life is a way of living and martial arts people get too hung up on this idea of being a martial artist. If you want to be a warrior join the army. Otherwise why if not for image??

I disagree with you. I believe Martial Arts is a way of living.

It teaches you to respect others because it teaches you to respect yourself.

It allows you to be come aware of your surroundings and situations, enabling you to confront them efficently (be they a fight or financial planning) through patience and placid thinking.

And finally, MA generally allows you to live a more peaceful and better life, equipping you with good fitness levels, tolerance and awareness.

Also, I've been told that everything in life has its own self-defense mechanism. Man has lost his, when he regains it, his mind can dwell on higher things..

Brian

vasch_ro

I actaully saw that demo in UCd many moons ago I think that was the very first international comp that Roy Baker ran wasn't it ?

But the demo by Brian Mc Carthy was very very good and very funny certainly among the best I have seen

columok

I dont see that training in martial arts gives you any more self respect than any intense sport. Why should studying martial arts be more valid than training at a high level in 100 metres, surfing, rugby, boxing etc.

A professional athlete (in my experience) puts more blood, sweat and tears into their sport than most martial artists. Is what they are doing less significant? The value in martial arts is not in the hypothesising but in the doing, like any physical pursuit. Martial arts dont magically bestow life-changing experiences unto the practitioner. Hard work does this. Buddhist monks experience enlightenment through hard work. It doenst matter what form that work takes.

It allows you to be come aware of your surroundings and situations, enabling you to confront them efficently (be they a fight or financial planning) through patience and placid thinking.

Any competitive and challenging activity could do this. Competitive chess could do this. (well maybe not the fight bit- though I hear Kasparov is an animal in a scrap )

And finally, MA generally allows you to live a more peaceful and better life, equipping you with good fitness levels, tolerance and awareness.

I would question that. Fitness can be obtained from most sporting activity. I dont think that traditional martial arts lend themselves to peace and love. I think peace and love lends itself to peace and love. Be nicer to everyone. You dont need to know how to break arms to do that. Smile. No Dim-Mak required!!

Also, I've been told that everything in life has its own self-defense mechanism. Man has lost his, when he regains it, his mind can dwell on higher things..

Again, not really sure on this one. You put someone in a survival situation and youd be surprsed how easily man can self defend!

Colm_OReilly

People seem to put too much meaning into things, and can easily justify almost anything. The book by Thomas Gilovich - "How we know what isn't so : the fallibility of human reason in everyday life" is an excellent read and I recommend it unconditionally to everyone gives great examples of how we tend to see things that aren't really there.

I had a conversation with my mother, who is a maths teacher, a while back about why people are taught maths, particularly abstract maths that have little application to anyone but specialists in a particular field. She replied that it taught them logic and reasoning. So I asked, why don't you just teach people logic and reasoning, instead of expecting people to make the mental leap from maths to logical deduction and such?

People often think martial arts, and in particular Asian martial arts, will lead to some advanced mental state or spirituality. Why not just read some philosophy, Eastern or Western, and meditate on some things?

Peace Out,
Colm

mcguiver

MMMMMM,

This threads reaching a higher level... very impressed.
I suppose like any form of sports training, to do it properly we have to look at the bigger picture, attitude, diet, lifestyle etc. I supppose the great advantage of a defence/martial art skill is that it gives us all the confidence and training to know what we can and can't handle when things go wrong.

I think proper teaching methods do promote respect, after all we are borrowing our sparring partners bodies to practice, we are learning from our peers and usually end up passing our skills on to others.


Now back to work all of ye!!

Colm_OReilly

This threads reaching a higher level... very impressed

Thank you!

I supppose the great advantage of a defence/martial art skill is that it gives us all the confidence and training to know what we can and can't handle when things go wrong.

As long as you're training in an Alive environment (Progressive Resistance)!

Now back to work all of ye!!

Don't speak of such things!

columok

I supppose the great advantage of a defence/martial art skill is that it gives us all the confidence and training to know what we can and can't handle when things go wrong.

Would that mean that the confidence gleaned from training in a martial art is dependant on the effectiveness of that martial art? So if a martial art lacks effectiveness (such as Iaido) then what can be gained from it that cant be gained from another sport or philosophy book. What makes martial arts unique in this respect?

I think proper teaching methods do promote respect, after all we are borrowing our sparring partners bodies to practice, we are learning from our peers and usually end up passing our skills on to others

Surely this is the same for any team sport or activity requiring trust in another person i.e caving, climbing, kayaking, sailing etc. Is it necessary to go to a martial art to find this? If not then why do martial arts specifically?

Now back to work all of ye!!

Hey youre not my boss! Or are you? **** sorry boss!

dent

"Funny then that the traditional martial arts have a tendencey to make people think that they are invincible samurai/ninjas/monk/pirates. I havent seen any of that in the MMA world."

Very general statement to make. Seems to be if its not MMA its rubbish kind of attitude around. I practice Jujutsu and we fight standing, clinch and ground. Its a traditional school alright but if it doesn't work its not used. Techniques are practiced but sparring is used to see if they are valid. You certainly don't get the feeling you are invincible. Common sense is encoraged at all times. I guess its down to the instructer

columok

I dont think any of us our blindly pro MMA. I think thats a bit unfair. If you look through my posts you will consistently find me referring to Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling as the most effective training and delivery systems. Anything that trains alive against FULLY RESISTING OPPONENTS is gonna be beneficial in self defence/competition whatever! If you dont train it in an alive fashion then it just doesnt work. Its common sense.

When you spar, you dispel all notions of invincibility because the gaps in your abilities are as plain as the right cross veering towards your head or the thai kick crashing into your thigh. If you dont spar, then you start to imagine your abilities and the ego takes over, creating an imaginery picture of how good you are. This is very common in traditional martial arts from my experience and the experience of those I train with. This was certainly the way I thought as a TMAer. The lack of sparring was to blame for this in my opinion.

The following is an article on reasons for training in martial arts. Hope it at least challenges you! Sorry if youve seen it before!
Straight Blast Gym: Motives for Training

PhoenixRising

columok wrote:

The lack of sparring was to blame for this in my opinion.

What about Taekwon-do? There's plenty of sparring in Taekwon-do. Would you rate that as being effective?

columok

What about Taekwon-do? There's plenty of sparring in Taekwon-do. Would you rate that as being effective?

Absolutely not.

I wouldnt consider it sparring as the rules imposed on it work against conventional fight logic. It becomes a game of tag chasing.

-Dont step into kicks

-Back off/reset after each kick is scored

-Emphasis on style rather than effectiveness

-No kicks below the waist (The no.1 target for most Thai fighters)

Certain TKD styles are now incorporating full contact sparring and guess what? What does it look like? Muay Thai minus certain elements. The reason is that the human body can only do so many things. Put two guys into a room fighting for a hundred years only aloud hit with their hands and theyll have a style evolve to be similar to boxing. Same with grappling. Same with football, surfing etc. etc. etc.

dent

"I wouldnt consider it sparring as the rules imposed on it work against conventional fight logic."

That can also be applied to MMA. Its not like you train on a street in Winter with broken bottles lying on the ground being attacked by Multiple oppenants. I'm not starting a street fighting debate because I don't personnaly want to or train that way. All martial arts have limits. You probalbly believe MMA provides the best or nearest solution. What happens when your sixty years old. My point is MMA might be the best solution for you. But it isn't for everyone and you should respect that.

Colm_OReilly

dent,

Please don't take this as arrogance on our part. Taken from the FAQ on our website.

There is also a common misconception that MMA is only for the super athlete, or those willing to bash someones head in. The only difference between an MMA fighter and a casual practitioner is the level of conditioning and intensity in their training. The techniques, movements, etc, etc can be practiced and trained in a realistic manner by everyone. By convention, Functional JKD is the term used to describe those who train in a realistic, Alive manner, but do not train at the Frequency, Intensity, and Duration of a competitor.

As an example, our Harolds X gym has about 70 members, about 7 are serious about MMA style competition. The rest all train with the "competition team" on a regular basis and don't go home all banged up.

You need to be in peak condition to play Soccer at international level. Yet everyone can play a game of Soccer. What's the difference? The Skill level of the professionals, there conditioning and training regimes. The Fundamentals remain the same throughout however.

Good points raised, though.

Take Care,
Colm

columok

Its not like you train on a street in Winter with broken bottles lying on the ground being attacked by Multiple oppenants.

Try this. Its by Rodney King, an excellent boxer and the man responsible for developing many of standup training methods. Sorry to constantly refer to SBG articles, but they straightened up a lot of ideas I had in my head once upon a time.

Street Vs. Sport -A Tired Debate

You probalbly believe MMA provides the best or nearest solution.

Exactly. Its far from perfect. But it represents the next best thing. The most perfect solution for me is to run . Even that doesnt always work.

What happens when your sixty years old.

Helio Gracie is still rolling in his 80s (I think). Just because you train alive doesnt mean you have to train dangerously or with great risk of injury. Look at the Judo Masters Events with people in their 60s and 70s still competing!!

My point is MMA might be the best solution for you. But it isn't for everyone and you should respect that.

I do respect that. Its a debate about training methods and not a personal attack. If I have issues with Traditional Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Kung Fu etc I'm not having an issue with the individual. You arent defined by your martial art. Its just a thing you do 3 times a week in the local school/college/town hall/whatever. If I dont like football, all football players dont get offended. This is a debate on training methods and therefore we should be as objective as possible about our own training methods and the training methods of others. Politeness could interfere with the honesty in this case!

PhoenixRising

But boxing for instance has it's own set of imposed rules which produces a particular style of fighting. Would you consider that effective?

Anything without a set of imposed rules is just fighting or brawling.

Like dent, I've also noticed that recently there have been a few posters on this board promoting MMA, Muay Thai, BJJ, and rubbishing all other martial arts as being 'ineffective' or out-dated (I'm not just aimimg this at you columok and it's nothing personal )

I've listened to the arguments for and against - and I would agree with you that MMA or a combination of Muay Thai & BJJ probably is going to be far more effective in a real fight on the street. However, what I think you miss is the fact that a lot of people don't train in a martial art to become some kind of competent street fighter or UFC champion. I certainly don't anyway. I've never been in a real fight in my life and I tend to do everything possible to avoid ever being in a real street fight. Speaking for myself, I train in Taekwon-do primarily to keep fit and because I find it interesting.

The point I am trying to make is that we all do martial arts for different reasons but we don't all measure our martial art purely in terms of how effective it is going to be in real street fight.

Colm_OReilly

I train in Taekwon-do primarily to keep fit and because I find it interesting.

That's cool, its nice to see people being honest with themselves. If this sounds condescending (as things often do on the net) then I apologize. Pheonix, in my experience, an awful lot of people have been led to believe that a load of esoteric patterns will make you invincible, and a great many propagate this fallacy. If you're training in certain MA's because they look cool, and you enjoy doing them, friggin excellent. You should have fun in what you're doing!

But if you're training primarily to gain combat effective skills, then which martial art you pick has a big impact on whether you achieve these aims.

But boxing for instance has it's own set of imposed rules which produces a particular style of fighting. Would you consider that effective?

Boxing is the best method of hands only fighting there is. 90% of the skills learnt by a boxer can translate over to Real Life/Functional JKD/MMA etc. There are obviously considerations that have to be made. There are also considerations in Wrestling, Thai, and BJJ that need to be made when the other ranges come into play.

Cool thread guys, I've never had a real time internet discussion before