Are we too promiscuous?

impr0v · 27-07-2004 12:02PM

Originally posted by simu
I'm quite introspective but don't get depressed.

I don't take anything all that seriously because oblivion is just around the corner.

BRILLIANT!!!

impr0v · 27-07-2004 12:43PM

Is the issue here not the increasing parity between the sexes when it comes to promiscuity, rather than an increasingly promiscuous society per se? Would it be all that unusual for a guy to score three girls at an occasion such as this? The act would still be selfish, but would it warrant such levels of condemnation?

You mention guys wooing girls back in the good old days, do you feel threatened by the increased sexual liberation of women, and the changing roles of the sexes in society? The disenfranchisment of the male in modern society is a recurring theme in recent (male-authored) literature, and is a well documented phenomenon, rather than something to be ashamed of.

It seems somewhat sensationalist and self-important to use the actions of one girl to tar society with, and if you were shouldn't the question have been 'are we too selfish?' It seems to me that your brother made an unwise choice in his date for the grad and deserves to take responsibility for that choice, or at least to learn something from it and move on.

In my opinion rose-tinted talk of the good old days is a pointless endeavour, given how you can't bring them back, and the tendancy of memory to be selective. Progress inevitably brings some new challenges with it, one either adapts or gets walked on by those who are in the process of adapting. In my opinion Irish society is infinitely better than it was in the good old days of comely maidens dancing at the cross-roads. To me the existence of self-help groups in society is less evidence of a growing malaise in society than evidence of a healthy demand for them. Previously people had to turn to the church, the very definition of a self-help group, or to keep quiet about their problems. To admit a personal problem or to seek help for it was to volunteer oneself for the role of pariah in ye olde irish society, you can't honestly bemoan the passing of those days.

The vagaries of the irish, sponsored by diageo, 'dating' system are well documented. Either change the system or refuse to subscribe to it if you feel it needs to change and once enough people agree with you, commercial and/or societal pressures will force the system to adapt.

Kell · 27-07-2004 01:40PM

Originally posted by impr0v
The disenfranchisment of the male in modern society is a recurring theme in recent (male-authored) literature, and is a well documented phenomenon, rather than something to be ashamed of.

It is also one of the cited reasons for the increase in male suicide in the mid teen to early twenties age bracket. I can see how the rise to power of the feminine influence on the Irish landscape can cause young blokes to wonder what the fúck their role is when the parameters keep changing. Now I am not saying that women should go backwards to pre-suffragette days as the female parity movement must be accepted in order for us to develop as a nation.

However, another thing that I have noticed on the flipside of females becoming "empowered" if you want to call it that, is the decreasing number of women in the early thirties age bracket with little sparkley rings on their wedding fingers along with gold ones. I am not making out that marriage is the be all and end all of everything, however lack of stability and an absence of a long standing committed relationship can be a contributary factor in female suicide, and generally is. Female equality (in the hunter gatherer sense) can be a turn off to some blokes and in a way a cause for the absence of what I am told a huge amount of women really want "romance". (I do not know what women truly want, nor will I as I am male).

Another increasing trend that should be looked at in terms of nightclubs and promiscuity (yes, I do think we are a bit promiscuous) is the fact that the sub twenty age bracket and indeed into the mid twenties, communicate with eachother almost entirely by text message (evidence to be found on PI's). It is not surprising then that when they visit nightclubs they havnt a clue what to talk about and invariably end up getting twisted and laid. Conversation was at one point an art, which has been replaced by an almost arcade like game of texting. I will never forget being in a friends house and four out of the seven people in the room were texting eachother rather than talking to eachother, and no they were not talking about the other three.

Maybe the original poster should have posted "have we lost the ability to talk to eachother without alchohal and has this lead to increased promiscuity?" I say we have become a tad desposable with our regard for sex and I base this on the fact that I would personally not feel comfortable if I knew that my partner had shagged half the country and I doubt any other poster would either.

K-

impr0v · 27-07-2004 02:05PM

Originally posted by Kell
I will never forget being in a friends house and four out of the seven people in the room were texting each other rather than talking to each other...

Frightening.

gom · 27-07-2004 02:57PM

Have a read of "Promiscities" by Naomi Wolf(The ARch-Feminist)

Its a good book that shows how promiscous behaviour is liberating for woman and for the unaccpeting male it is a bit of a bind...

All in all. I think that your take on promiscuous women/men as a cause for concern in society is unfounded. Your little brother simply was not very in touch with the social reality of modern ireland. If you go out with a girl for a night she isn't bound to you because you paid for her or anything as such. That is what prostitution is for. What she did was intensly rude, selfish and sluty but she does have free will and did not break any laws.

She betrayed your brother so why should he trust her again. On the other hand if it losses the ability to put any trust in another woman again he needs serious help and you can't blame some random bird he took a fancy to. He must find fault in his own personal social ideals. And then perhaps blame your parents for bringing him up with too many morals that were not formed from experience but inherited from his da no doubt

villain_97 · 27-07-2004 04:16PM

Our da considers himself Liberal!!We weren't wrapped up in cotton wool or anything,at least not the older ones in the family.My brother is the youngest by 5 years.perhaps that is a part of his problem.However I don't go along witht he whole idea we shouldjust accept lower standards because thats the way things are going etc eyc.And no,I'm not pointing her out as an example.The guys who she was with are equally to blame,in fact more so for taking advantage of her drunken state.And don't make out like the issue here is what my brother paid,the fact is his feelings were hurt cuz he liked her.Gom that is what is worrying me.I'm afriad he will never trust women again.He is an angry young man at the moment which is why I posted this in the first place.

You have to admit the signals women give out are very difficult to decode.I'm not sexist but its a reality.I'm all for equality and feel its about time women are considered to equal to men.They are gifted in so many ways men are not.However this should not come at the expense of men.We also have rights.

I stand my original argument that promiscuity is not good.In the long term it could prove disasterous.As already mentioned by Kell we no longer communicate.As a result relationships are less and less about love and emotional fulfillment but about sexual pleasure.So the main benefit of a relationship is one's own pleasure.Inevitably people become bored and cheat because that same emotional attachment that once (in the good aul days) charecterised relationships is gone.

STDs are on the increase whether we like it or not.Think of the abuse of trust in society.How does the girl lying in bed with HIV feel about the trust she had in her partner?What did her partner care more about his duty or his due?We thought we were more responsible regarding safe sex but we are not.Our secondary schools provide no basic learning regarding social issues.Our teenagers ,who are obviously raising the bar of promiscuity even higher, ar having un-protected sex.The consequences could prove frightening.

The paternity of children can no longer be guarenteed.Call me old fashioned but that cannot be a positive development.I suppose you thought in-breeding was confined to the history books,but lets face it will our grand-children be able to trust that we behaved ourselves enough to be sure the girl they're dating is not a sister??Wait, I can just sense the anger towards me welling up so will stop.But don't discount these possibilities no matter how far fetched they or looney I sound.

My take on the whole grad thing and my bruv is that its a fairly damning indictment of our education system that after 5 years of secondary education our ''young adults'' cannot behave a little more civilised for just one night.Our education system is flawed if people are not given guidance on how to live.What matters more?How equiped we are to earn money or how equiped we are to lead our lives.Once we have that education we can make infomred decisions on how we want to live our lives.

JohnnyBravo · 27-07-2004 04:50PM

Whos to say in our modern world with our modern ideas
All i know is a man can only live to the morals and standards he sets himself so that he can wake up in the morning and look at himself and be proud of the reflection staring back
Telling someone to lower their standards because that is the way the social ladder is going is ignorant and weak minded
Not everyone is the same
Some people have high morals standards etc some do not
Dont compromise yourself to be part of the social scene

Georgiana · 27-07-2004 11:02PM

A few thoughts for villain 97

Its a harsh old world and there are loads and loads of pressures of all kinds. This has always been the case in every society. Young people of seventeen, of both sexes, face enormous pressures, risks and dangers of being hurt in all kinds of ways. I think they always have, but the sort of situations you describe are the particular pressures of our own environment in 2004. Getting through that is easier with understanding and support and your young brother is lucky to have you on his side. Also, getting through the pressures of early life is part of the process of maturing. So it more or less has to happen. Hopefully significant risk can be avoided, but getting hurt by members of the opposite sex is par for the course in the maturing process. Its unfortunate your brother had such a bad experience with this girl on an important night, but nobody died. I generally agree with your assessment of how things are in relation to young people's behaviour etc. However, anyone who wishes can spend their time engaged in sport, the arts or any other more uplifting pursuits than drinking etc. If your brother is the kind of guy you say, he would be best trying to meet a girl who suits him through an activity he enjoys. Call me old fashioned if you will. I'm a hell of a lot older than 17!!

villain_97 · 28-07-2004 06:31PM

I agree Georgiana.Thats what i've been saying to him.The only problem is his favourite hobby is Gaelic Football!I've been telling him that when he goes to Uni he'l join a society where he can meet like minded girls.However,I think it's gunna be a while before he trusts women.He says he's gunna use women cuz thats all women do to men!I think he will get over it,Dunno if this new couldn't give a sh1t attitude is the way to do it.

As you say nobody died,but for a few days after his grad,he acted as though somebody had.It's difficult to convey those sentiments to a guy who is in despair.

I wouldn't call you old fashioned!I'm glad other people understand what I'm on about.As you say,it's easy to be labelled old fashioned.I think modern like is wonderful,I'm just unsure of certain side-effects.

I hope you're right and that this will be a major learning curve.However I hope the lesson he has learned hasn't embittered him towards women.

Zombrex · 01-08-2004 12:53AM

Hold on a minute.

There are two completely different issues that are getting very confused here, cheating and promiscouity.

You and your brother need to have a serious think about what exactly this girl did "wrong"

Was your brother "going out" with this girl? Did he feel she was cheating on him. If that was the case, then surely he would have been just upset if she had shagged only 1 guy at the party.

All this talk about this girl being promiscuous, and about promiscuous society is a deflection of guilt to an issue that isn't relevent. The event you and your brother should find objectionable is the fact she cheated on him, not that she was with 7 guys. If she was with seven guys but wasn't cheating on him, then that would be fine.

She certainly sounds promiscuous, but why is that upsetting your brother? It is not the issue that he should blame her for.

I am saying this because it is very easy to let the resentment and anger your brother (justifiably) feels towards this girl rest on an issue (promiscuity) he shouldn't actually be angry about. This could effect future relationships with women. What if he meets a nice girl, who has fooled around a bit in the past, but is serious about him. Would his miss-placed resentment towards the idea of promiscuity, effect his feelings towards future girls.

Iago · 04-08-2004 07:29PM

we're not getting more promiscious, as was mentioned by a previous poster it's just that the sexes are catching up with each other here in Ireland, as Ireland is catching up with the world in terms of sexual freedom.

People are more likely to try different things before settling down with one person and dedicating themselves to them. Again as mentioned by a previous poster I'm simply talking about promiscuity as opposed to infidelity, which is a topic all it's own.

I think that people should be free to do whatever they want, with whoever they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, and for their own good health that they are being safe.

Promiscuity is subjective, for some people having had 5 sexual partners is promiscious for others having 20 is, dpeends on who you are and what your situation is, the people who only want to have one partner will still find that person and people who want multiple experiences first will find that as well.

At the end of the day the world is diverse enough to cater for everyone's ideal, and all you have to do is find someone with the same ideals as you

villain_97 · 08-08-2004 08:42PM

Exactly what I told my brother,said he'd find somebody in college.I know she didn't do anything wrong but all the same it can't be good that people are so promiscuous.I doubt safe sex is a thought when people are that drunk or stoned.I feel that if we are to accept the new era of very ''free love'' then we must have more sex education,social studies etc in school.I'm all for people having a good time,my main concern is people's safety and frankly i think many people are not responsible enough to be safe.

Wicknight,you have to put yourself in his shoes.They were not going out together or anything but good friends etc.While your argument makes perfect sense,if he feels anger there is nothing he can do about it.Just as a depressed person cannot help the fact they are depressed my bruv cannot help it if he finds this carry on offensive

Zombrex · 09-08-2004 03:34PM

villain_97 wrote:

Wicknight,you have to put yourself in his shoes.They were not going out together or anything but good friends etc.While your argument makes perfect sense,if he feels anger there is nothing he can do about it.Just as a depressed person cannot help the fact they are depressed my bruv cannot help it if he finds this carry on offensive

I understand that your brother is angry, and I think he has every right to be angry. What I am saying is that he should maybe have a think about what exactly he is angry about.

I mean, you say he took offensive that she was so promiscusious. I don't know your brother, but I would say that is more likely that he was upset that she was with other people, rather than him, because he likes her and wanted to be with her that night. But because they were not going out it is hard from him to express that he is upset by that, because he has no real claim over her. So instead his anger is directed at the actions she took that night, being with a load of guys.

If he didn't like her, then would her actions have bothered him so much? I doubt it. It is the fact that he likes her and wanted to be with her, that is making him upset, not the fact that she was with a load of guys.

Are we too promiscuous?

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