Luas teething problems

mackerski · 04-07-2004 12:44pm #1

I took the time yesterday to have a more leisurely spin on the Luas, stopping off a few times to take some photographs and work out where the stations are in relation to places I know. The biggest thing that struck me is the number of things that are working either not at all or else just intermittently:

"Next Tram" dot-matrix displays: Off at most stops, helpfully explaining "every 10 minutes at some" and occasionally listing a list of inbound trams with their destinations but no due time.

Destination quoted on front and sides of tram: "Out of service" on about half the trams I saw. One Sandyford tram also claimed to be heading for Stephen's Green.

In-tram next-station display: Working in one tram, off in all others

In-tram recorded station announcements: Working in about half of the trams I was in.

The worrying thing about all of these issues is that you wouldn't expect them to be infrastrtuctural - it's existing technology, as used in a bunch of other cities.

There also seem to be problems maintaining tram frequency. I witnessed a window of about 15-20 minutes at Milltown during which no citybound trams came. Naturally, when the trams did start to arrive they were packed to the gills.

The service is still streets ahead of any alternative, though, so you'd like to hope that the missing pieces will arrive sooner rather than later.

Dermot

drrnwbb · 04-07-2004 1:05pm

any chance of posting the pictures?

dw

chewy · 04-07-2004 4:08pm

i saw somebody mentioned theres only one ticket machine on either side of the station... are any ofthe stations manned?

he imagined people runing across the tracks to get itckets when one was broken.... what are the queues like for the tickets?

won't they get broken alot... and the machines at the dart station useful as they are a bit tempermental

dub45 · 04-07-2004 8:01pm

Originally posted by chewy
i saw somebody mentioned theres only one ticket machine on either side of the station... are any ofthe stations manned?

he imagined people runing across the tracks to get itckets when one was broken.... what are the queues like for the tickets?

won't they get broken alot... and the machines at the dart station useful as they are a bit tempermental

As an extension of that point what would be the legal position if the ticket machines were broken some busy moring at a main commuting time and all of the passengers board the tram without tickets through no fault of their own?

mackerski · 04-07-2004 8:23pm

I ended up not shooting all that many pictures - I have some of some trams in the deep-level stop at Kilmacud. Nothing exciting, but if there's interest, I'll post them.

It's too early to tell what the queues will be like, since nobody needs a ticket until Monday morning. I can tell you that most of the stops where I noticed the machines had three of them, with the extra machine on the platform where it would be most useful in the morning rush (the ones I can recall were Sandyford end, and had two machines on the citybound platform). Harcourt stop doesn't matter so much, since it's an island platform and there's therefore no track to cross.

Regarding the hard luck case where the machines are bust, I'd say "nice try". I see the problem, but can't see them setting the precedent. It's a problem that will mostly affect commuters, and they will all opt for multi-day tickets anyway, which should take the edge off the queue length in any case.

Dermot

BrianD · 04-07-2004 8:43pm

As an extension of that point what would be the legal position if the ticket machines were broken some busy moring at a main commuting time and all of the passengers board the tram without tickets through no fault of their own?

... probably the same amount of legal comfort if you get clamped when the parking metre is broken! Regular commuters should have a weekly/monthly ticket. I believe that the strategy is to sell a ticket to anybody that hasn't got one when inspected. If they don't buy they get chucked off.

I'm surprised that they don't have ticket validation machines on board. As well as providing useful passenger info it also makes the free loader feel uncomfortable as everybody else validates their ticket.

In australia the "customer services reps" have the power to detain any passenger without a ticket effectively arresting them until police arrive.

dub45 · 04-07-2004 8:52pm

Originally posted by BrianD
... probably the same amount of legal comfort if you get clamped when the parking metre is broken! Regular commuters should have a weekly/monthly ticket. I believe that the strategy is to sell a ticket to anybody that hasn't got one when inspected. If they don't buy they get chucked off.

I'm surprised that they don't have ticket validation machines on board. As well as providing useful passenger info it also makes the free loader feel uncomfortable as everybody else validates their ticket.

In australia the "customer services reps" have the power to detain any passenger without a ticket effectively arresting them until police arrive.

But does anyone know the actual legal position as distinct from maybes or probablies?

BrianD · 05-07-2004 6:57am

.

As an extension of that point what would be the legal position if the ticket machines were broken some busy moring at a main commuting time and all of the passengers board the tram without tickets through no fault of their own?

The legal position is that you get done for fare evasion. Don't you just love Irish people at their "what if" scenarios. Moan, Moan moan! Does it make any difference? The max fine is €45 for not having a ticket. You can pay it and appeal it. The onus is on you to buy a ticket before boarding. They're are at least two machines at each stop, plus theres ticket agents.

There are many DART stations where there is frequently a lack of staff in the ticket office e.g. Clontarf Road where you have to buy your ticket at the destination. In theory, you could be inspected on the carraige and get done

sliabh · 05-07-2004 7:46am

Now that the Luas is running on a pay-for-your-spin basis has anyone had their tickets inspected?

On the way to Sandyford this morning the purple clad Luas staff were still out in force helping people with the ticket machines but no sign of a ticket checker. I presume these will not make an appearance for a few days until people are used to the the machines.

Incidently the touch screens seem finiky. A lot of pressure is needed for them to register your choices. Has anyone else found this?

rs · 05-07-2004 8:36am

Originally posted by mackerski

"Next Tram" dot-matrix displays: Off at most stops, helpfully explaining "every 10 minutes at some" and occasionally listing a list of inbound trams with their destinations but no due time.

Destination quoted on front and sides of tram: "Out of service" on about half the trams I saw. One Sandyford tram also claimed to be heading for Stephen's Green.

In-tram next-station display: Working in one tram, off in all others

In-tram recorded station announcements: Working in about half of the trams I was in.

The worrying thing about all of these issues is that you wouldn't expect them to be infrastrtuctural - it's existing technology, as used in a bunch of other cities.

There also seem to be problems maintaining tram frequency. I witnessed a window of about 15-20 minutes at Milltown during which no citybound trams came. Naturally, when the trams did start to arrive they were packed to the gills.

I have to say I noticed many of the same problems yesterday also. But I have to say, all in all I was pretty impressed. The queues were pretty long, but moved quickly enough. Tram on the way back to stephens green was a bit packed, but not too bad. The people organizing the loading and unloading of the trams did a great job. No problems when I was there anyway.

I think they were pretty brave to offer free travel over the weekend knowing that almost half the city would go for a free ride. not that we don't deserve it of course

From what I understand, the trams ran all day, carried a huge number of people.

I think we have to expect that there are going to be plenty of little problems that need to be ironed out.

If every second tram had broken down, I'd be getting pretty worried. But a few minor problems aside, I think it went pretty well.

I just hope they can build the next luas lines faster and cheaper than the existing ones.

And build one to my house

dub45 · 05-07-2004 8:55am

Originally posted by BrianD
.

The legal position is that you get done for fare evasion. Don't you just love Irish people at their "what if" scenarios. Moan, Moan moan! Does it make any difference? The max fine is €45 for not having a ticket. You can pay it and appeal it.

I think you have a persecution complex on behalf of the Luas system. I am sure there is some treatment you can get somewhere. Hopefully you can get it quickly.

How can a simple question be interpreted as a moan and an indictment of Irish people? For once why dont you cop yourself on?

John R · 05-07-2004 9:32am

Originally posted by sliabh
Now that the Luas is running on a pay-for-your-spin basis has anyone had their tickets inspected?

On the way to Sandyford this morning the purple clad Luas staff were still out in force helping people with the ticket machines but no sign of a ticket checker. I presume these will not make an appearance for a few days until people are used to the the machines.

Incidently the touch screens seem finiky. A lot of pressure is needed for them to register your choices. Has anyone else found this?

Yes it is rather odd I have never seen that before, usually you only need to apply the lightest touch. The Irish rail ones which seem to be the same design are not like this. More like a push screen really, at first I thought they were not operating.

BrianD · 05-07-2004 2:42pm

Dub45, it is a simple question with an obvious answer!!!!

I don't have a persecution complex about the luas, I do have a problem with people like yourself who impede progress by attempting to trip it up with irrelevant objections.

On the subject of the ticket machines, I did find the screen very hard to see when I played around with it. The audio feature is handy though.

dub45 · 05-07-2004 8:49pm

Originally posted by BrianD
Dub45, it is a simple question with an obvious answer!!!!

I don't have a persecution complex about the luas, I do have a problem with people like yourself who impede progress by attempting to trip it up with irrelevant objections.

On the subject of the ticket machines, I did find the screen very hard to see when I played around with it. The audio feature is handy though.

Not only have you a persecution complex but you are paranoid as well. How any sane balanced person can interpret a 'simple' question' about ticket machines being out of order as an attempt to 'impede progress' is beyond me. Do youself a favour have rest and lie down on a couch preferably in some specialist's office.

BrianD · 06-07-2004 1:23am

Well I wasn't going to dignify your post with a response but I got a good laugh when I read it.

You obviously have had a keen interest in the development at the luas and have raised a number of issues with the project and the operation of same. So far you haven't really argued your case so well - when challenged you have avoided the debate or as now resort to insults.

I think the debate about the Luas and the way people/media have reacted against it is almost a microcosm (excuse the spelling) of small minded Irish thinking. Granted that this particular issue is not something for this board. Having said that, it is something I hate - if it's not the spire, it's the luas then its something else ...fight change and progress at all costs!

In any case, I am offering you an opportunity to withdraw your previous post as I find it offensive.

dub45 · 06-07-2004 1:37am

Originally posted by BrianD
Well I wasn't going to dignify your post with a response but I got a good laugh when I read it.

You obviously have had a keen interest in the development at the luas and have raised a number of issues with the project and the operation of same. So far you haven't really argued your case so well - when challenged you have avoided the debate or as now resort to insults.

I think the debate about the Luas and the way people/media have reacted against it is almost a microcosm (excuse the spelling) of small minded Irish thinking. Granted that this particular issue is not something for this board. Having said that, it is something I hate - if it's not the spire, it's the luas then its something else ...fight change and progress at all costs!

In any case, I am offering you an opportunity to withdraw your previous post as I find it offensive.

Thanks but no thanks. Any observations I have made on the project were based on fact or inquiry locally something that could not be said of yours as far as I could see which on your own admission are based on 'observations' as you drive through an area you obviously know little or nothing about. This lack of knowledge did not stop you assessing the imapact of the luas project on businesses of course. I find such glibness offensive particularly when taken in the context of peoples businesses being run into the ground becuase of the Luas project but to find out about such things you have to ask rather than just drive by and make observations!

I also find offensive that any point you appear not to agree with is labelled as an attack on progress and change - that is mindbogglingly presumptuous, shallow and immature not to mention thoughtless.

And if the spire is an example of 'progress' God help us all paricularly if in your world view we cannot dislike it without being labelled smallminded!

pork99 · 06-07-2004 9:41am

Originally posted by BrianD
On the subject of the ticket machines, I did find the screen very hard to see when I played around with it.

I found that screen glare just from ambient daylight makes it very hard to see. And I have fairly ok eyesight. For someone with poor vision it would be impossible. It's amazing no one noticed that. Didn't anyone test it? I suppose it looked cool on screen in the client presentations and that was considered good enough.

It was helpful that they had staff there assisting people to purchase tickets - however one of the classic signs of a poorly designed user interface is that it needs an instruction manual or an instructor to teach you to use it.

Another poor usability/accessibility feature is the positioning of the ticket machines on some platforms. The ones in Stillorgan are right in the way of passengers entraining/detraining. At rush hour I assume there should heavy usage of the ticket machines. This should cause the platforms to get quite jammed and overcrowded with obvious safety implications.

Third_Echelon · 12-07-2004 4:35pm

Originally posted by sliabh
Now that the Luas is running on a pay-for-your-spin basis has anyone had their tickets inspected?

On the way to Sandyford this morning the purple clad Luas staff were still out in force helping people with the ticket machines but no sign of a ticket checker. I presume these will not make an appearance for a few days until people are used to the the machines.

Incidently the touch screens seem finiky. A lot of pressure is needed for them to register your choices. Has anyone else found this?

Yeah i've been on it twice during the past week and I was asked for my ticket on each occasion... So the message is to buy a ticket...

touch screens do need a bit of force to register your choice... but they seem to be pretty straight forward to use alright...

I was getting it out to sandyford and we had to stop on harcourt st for 15 mins as according to the driver, the computer system that runs the lights had crashed and we had to wait until it rebooted.... hilarious...

Tivoli · 12-07-2004 6:49pm

maybe they put tougher screens on the kiosks so thay can take a few "skumbags kicks" before they need to be repaired

P&L · 13-07-2004 9:32am

Originally posted by mukki
maybe they put tougher screens on the kiosks so thay can take a few "skumbags kicks" before they need to be repaired

yeah, you'd have to do that when you use what is essentially an indoor machine

Luas teething problems

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