Raise the drinking age to 21

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 10:47AM #1

That's what I say. We need to move with the times and loosen the stranglehold alcohol has on this country. How many times do you see under 21s vomiting in doorways, grappling eachother outside nightclubs, publicly displaying their awquard love for slappers and generally being an eyesore. Wether it's a student out to get plastered or an apprentice plasterer out to get legless it's all the same.
Think of how more peacefull nightclubs would be without these louts with crewcuts and white jeans clogging up the social scene. Think how much more time students could spent on their assignments! Think how much they could save and spend better things like soap or haircuts. Todays youth wants to grow up too quickly. If we spent our years between 17 to 21 entertaining themselfs alternativly then we wouldn't turn into the alcholol driven zombies we are today.

Big Ears · 17-02-2004 10:48AM

i feel a strong argument coming on :ninja:

Dr. Loon · 17-02-2004 10:51AM

Wouldn't make a difference. I've been drinking since I was 15. Not something I'm proud of but there ye go. The problem isn't the age limit, it's just ingrained in our culture. I don't know how to solve the problem though. Beer killed all my brain cells!

uberwolf · 17-02-2004 10:55AM

but then the over 25's would be saying look at all those under 25's puking in the alleys...

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 10:56AM

When the drinking age is 18 people start at 15/16, but if the drinking age was 21 then people may start at 19/20, or maybe they'll be mature enough to say no to drink.
Stiffer penaltys would also be a fantastic idea. People below 21 found guilty of consuming alcohol could be sentenced to commit their weekends to community service. Like cleaning up vomit at hospitals when drunken louts come in.

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 10:59AM

Originally posted by uberwolf
but then the over 25's would be saying look at all those under 25's puking in the alleys...

And over 30's would say the same about under 30's etc and so on. No! There are those over 21 who make asses out of themselfs but are in general better dressed, more mature, less agressive and don't drink excessively to rebel against their mommys & daddys.

seamus · 17-02-2004 11:01AM

Originally posted by inaccessibleisl
When the drinking age is 18 people start at 15/16, but if the drinking age was 21 then people may start at 19/20, or maybe they'll be mature enough to say no to drink.

Ah, so part of it is your own problem with alcohol. You seem to believe that drinking alcohol is a sign of immaturity on everybody's part, regardless of age.

Stiffer penaltys would also be a fantastic idea. People below 21 found guilty of consuming alcohol could be sentenced to commit their weekends to community service. Like cleaning up vomit at hospitals when drunken louts come in.

Stiffer penalties sure would be a great idea, with the current age limit. If only the law enforced things in this country.....

eirebhoy · 17-02-2004 11:04AM

Originally posted by inaccessibleisl
Stiffer penaltys would also be a fantastic idea. People below 21 found guilty of consuming alcohol could be sentenced to commit their weekends to community service. Like cleaning up vomit at hospitals when drunken louts come in.

You're bloody mad.:ninja:

Nuttzz · 17-02-2004 11:11AM

Its not the age that someone drinks at, it is what they drink. When I was 18-21 I rarely drank a short, neither did any of my male friends, we all drank pints, now people are drinking a great mix on a night out, and mixing them it energy drinks, I used to get pissed and eventually look to get to bed, hyped up on red bull you are less likely too though. Mixing Cider, Voldka, Red bull & lager together is going to give you some nasty results

cournioni · 17-02-2004 11:14AM

Thats arse, I'm not going into a pub to have to listen to "that guy is under 21, kick him out!!". Underage drinking will be a problem no matter what the legal age is. It's just part of the Irish culture.

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 11:16AM

Seamus,
I think you misunderstood my point. While I believe maturity is key to enjoying alcohol, it is withdoubt a better option to leave alcohol out of our diets. 18yr olds are not mature enough to realise that weekends can be spent without forgetting them.
And don't be petty, attempting to incinuate that I have a drink problem. Well I do, but no more than the rest of this country.

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 11:19AM

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Thats arse, I'm not going into a pub to have to listen to "that guy is under 21, kick him out!!". Underage drinking will be a problem no matter what the legal age is. It's just part of the Irish culture.

Only something a teenager could say. Your not ready for drink yet, no matter how many pints you and your mates can 'skull back'. Your body is not ready for it, your still growing hair in scary places, popping pimples and playing computer games.

Kiith · 17-02-2004 11:23AM

i've a big problem with this argument. i agree that some people go overboard when they go out drinking, but it's not like every one between the age of 18-21, gets absolutly bolloxed every time they go out. Just cause you drink alot doesn't mean your immature. and underage drinking isn't just a problem in this country.

Kiith · 17-02-2004 11:27AM

and who are you to decide if 18 year olds are not mature enough to drink if they want to. i've known 18 year olds who very mature, but they still drink. going out with your friends and having a few pints is something that is a part of the culture. thats because it's fun and sociable to do so.

rs · 17-02-2004 11:28AM

maturity does not come with age.

People will start drinking at 15 or 16 no matter what the drinking age is. They do in the US (drinking age 21), they do in Canada (drinking age 19), and they do here.

Plenty of over 21's drink just as stupidly as under 21's do.

It's not fair to penalize those under 21 who drink responsibly because many other people their age are morons.

Anyone who is totally plastered in public is arrested in the US and Canada and thrown in jail for the night(called the drunk tank). Then mum and dad get to pick you up in the morning.

It's a lot more effective than an age ban.

Hyzepher · 17-02-2004 11:39AM

I have to say that rs has a point. The age limit isn't the problem. The real problem is the lack of responsibility by some members of the drinking public and the publicans who serve them. Not to mention the state who should be more vigilant.

If we introduced a policy where being drunk in a public place resulted in a night in the slammer I am sure it would become less fashionable to get drunk every weekend. However, I am not sure that we would have enough cells for everybody initially - lol

Publicans have a role to play and all too often they seem to wash their hands of it. When have any of us ever seen someone get refused drink because they have had too much - hardly ever. Now most of the times it would be difficult to notice - especially as most pubs are packed on the weekend but trying to cut out the drink issue at source seems the most likely to succeed.

Hyzepher

Saruman · 17-02-2004 11:49AM

Originally posted by Dr. Loon
I don't know how to solve the problem though. Beer killed all my brain cells!

Thats just class!! Should post that in humour!

Anyway i dont drink but it would not make a difference increasing the age.. look at the US, its 21 there in most states and do you think that stops underage drinking? Course not.. its "cooler" to drink underage.. you would just turn 18-20 year olds from legal drinkers into "cool" illegal drinkers.

seamus · 17-02-2004 11:50AM

Originally posted by inaccessibleisl
And don't be petty, attempting to incinuate that I have a drink problem. Well I do, but no more than the rest of this country.

Sorry, I was in a rush, that part of my post reads wrong.

I was actually implying that you're a militant teetotaller.

Believing that you will solve a problem by legislating against it, leads to trouble IMO. That's what Minister McDowell seems to be attempting to do. Sure, raising the age limit will stop *some* younger drinkers from drinking until they're legal, but on the whole, it won't stop anything. Especially at 18/19/20, there would be serious trouble both in enforcing the ban (how do you prove who's 18 and who's not, just by looking at them, that is, if 21 year-olds kept getting hassled on the street, the Gardai would come under fire, if 18 year-olds were never checked because they looked a little older, the Gardai would come under fire, catch-22).

The problem is attitude. Nothing will change, because the Government's attitude to alcohol doesn't change. The Government needs to plough serious money into education and rehabilitation. Drink-Drivers should be subject to harsher penalties. People admitted to hospital for alcohol poisoning, or just because they've collapsed on the street, should be handed a bill for the Garda, ambulance and hospital resources they've consumed. Parents of underage children who are repeatedly found drunk should be punished (and not jailed or fined, but other forms of educational punishment).

You can't just make something illegal and assume it will go away. In a perfect world, maybe.

Besides, no Government would have the balls to raise the age. Any one who did, would be hammered by the publicans and the students.

Saviour_Angel · 17-02-2004 11:51AM

yes i totally agree.

I work in a bar and I absoultly hate young ones comming in and getting drunk. When there drunk they tend to get out of hand and cause a lot of trouble...

The limit should be raised to 21 as people at that age are a little more responcible than those at the age of 18. Drink is good for socilazing with friends, but to much can only cause troble for you and others.
Around my home town there are many attacks on people by youg people, drink certanly dosn't help...

Sunday night I had my own run in with someone who was drunk and taught I was someone else.......... I have to say this guy came out the worst but not without leaving me with a few brused ribs...
The age limit should be raised to a sutable age where people who drink have more responciblity.....

PS. Sorry about the spelling mistakes.......

GuanYin · 17-02-2004 12:13PM

Originally posted by rs
maturity does not come with age.

People will start drinking at 15 or 16 no matter what the drinking age is. They do in the US (drinking age 21), they do in Canada (drinking age 19), and they do here.

Plenty of over 21's drink just as stupidly as under 21's do.

I don't know about this, I would say that 90+% of the alcohol poisoning cases I've seen have been people aged 16-20. They tend to drink far less irresponsibly in this sense.

I actually think this is a matter that should be tackled ruthlessly. A few steps that could achieve this:
1. I would ideally like to see the age limit raised (21 sounds ok).
2. I'd like to see a zero tolerence on drunk and disorderly charges.
3. I'd like to see mandatory ID checks for anyone entering a bar or buying alcohol.
4. I'd like to see stricter punishments for drunk driving.
5. I'd also like to see the liciencing hours extended til 4-6am.

What we actually get is stupid half-measures like no happy hours or drinks advertising being banned (something that worked *so* well for smoking... did we learn anything?) and the curtailing of drinking hours.

As I see it the main two issues are stopping a couple of tens of thousands of very drunk people hitting the street at the same time and eradicating the "drink as an excuse" mentality that this country has.

If you are going to look at the USA and Canada, look at some of the knock on effects thatthe drinking laws have. People drink underage, but nowhere near as regularly as here. Underage drinkers are not blatently seen causing trouble, as they know they will be punished by teh law. Its alot cheaper for young people to get car insurance in the US, I often wonder if this is due to the drinking laws.

I don't think that under 21's shouldn't be allowed to drink, but I think if you want to change the culture to the benefit of this society then you have to break a few eggs.

Kiith · 17-02-2004 12:18PM

ya america is a great example. let's have the alchohol age limit at 21, the driving age limit at 15, and the gun license age at, what, 9,10.

User45701 · 17-02-2004 12:20PM

I Disagree bedause underage drinking is a problem - a large amount of combat on the streats is caused by drinking.
I belive in lowering the age to 16.

If the drinking age was 21 people would still start drinking around 15

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 12:22PM

It's refreshing to read posts like Syke's.
Instead of posts practically saying 'Sling it mister, I'm 19 and I can handle my bleedin drink, and I know everything, and I am as mature as anyone else and I can grow a deadly mustache in only 3 weeks'. Shyeah.
Teenagers are never going to agree that under 21s are generally massively immature until they get into their 20's. And if you were about to reply with 'Oh so the day you turn 21 you are more mature' then you really are immature and too young to appreciate and handle the alcohol world yet little man/woman.

inaccessibleisl · 17-02-2004 12:24PM

Originally posted by User45701
I Disagree bedause underage drinking is a problem - a large amount of combat on the streats is caused by drinking.
I belive in lowering the age to 16.

If the drinking age was 21 people would still start drinking around 15

*Shakes head and laughs to self* :rolleyes:

Your joking aren't you?
"a large amount of combat on the streats is caused by drinking."
True
"I belive in lowering the age to 16."
Stop, please, your killing me.

GuanYin · 17-02-2004 12:25PM

Originally posted by Kiith
ya america is a great example. let's have the alchohol age limit at 21, the driving age limit at 15, and the gun license age at, what, 9,10.

Thats nothing to do with the current topic and a great diversion tactic for taking away from the real issue.

The fact of the matter is, the countries with stricter drinking laws don't have the same disorder on the streets or amount alcohol related injuries as we do.

If you want to take a pop at US gun culture, start a relevant thread and I'll join you, but sticking your spoke in here just looks like your trying to divert a weak arguement.

super_furry · 17-02-2004 12:33PM

I think it's a dreadful idea. By the age of 18 people can vote, smoke, join the army, drive and are expected to contribute to the upkeep of the country through their taxes, yet you propose to curb their right to go to a pub. It's a question of civil liberty, and one that I thankfully don't think would ever succeed.

The main problem I see is that instead of having gangs of 15-16 year olds hanging around on street corners getting drunk, you'll have much bigger gangs of 15-20 year olds doing the same thing. Like it or not, the pub is the centre of social life in Ireland and if you exclude a group of people from it, you're left with the question - where do they go?

If you take the right of such a huge amount of people the go there, you will only get negative repercussions. If such a ban came into place, things like car-theft, petty vandalism and personal harassment would soar. You'd have much bigger gangs of scangers hanging around bored, getting drunk and causing trouble.

If you ban them from pubs, you won't stop them drinking, you'll just force them to do it in fields and on the streets.

Imposter · 17-02-2004 12:37PM

I dissagree totally with the idea of raising the drinking age. What I would do is lower it to 16's for beer (pints but not smirnoff ice etc.) and wine while leaving it at 18 for spirits and alcopops.

Other things that I would also do to help enforce this and help change attitudes towards drink would be:

- Require ID for ALL purchase of alcohol (whether 16 or 60)
- Make publicans responsible for selling to underage and/or drunk people - use warnings, fines or confiscate licences when neccessary.
- Come down hard on drunk and disorderly behaviour
- Allow pubs open a lot longer even as late as 4am.

Now there's a lot in there but here's my thinking on it. Allow young 'adults' to drink where they are being watched by a responsible adult (publican - that's not a joke, see above). Educate people early in secondary school as to the effects of alcohol. Make the parents responsible if children under the legal age have been drinking.

Allowing the pubs to open longer would initially cause huge problems but might eventually see people relax while drinking and not rush their quota of alcohol into them before closing time. Allowing the pubs to open so long would also prevent some fights and ease problems with taxis etc.

Tackling the behavioural issues would require a willingness on behalf of the gardai to act.

A lot of that may seem like some sort of pipe dream but if the government were to stand up to the gardai (make them accountable), publicans (make them responsible and/or deregulate) and tackle the issues of education (both of children and parents) then a more civil attitude ot drink and a more civil society in general might develop. On second thoughts it probably is some sort of pipe dream.

Kiith · 17-02-2004 12:42PM

**** sake inaccessibleisl, just cause some people, as we all know, can't be mature enough to drink sensibly, doesn't mean that everyone under the age of 21 is a drunken scumbag. generalizations like that really piss me off.

GuanYin · 17-02-2004 12:42PM

Originally posted by super_furry

The main problem I see is that instead of having gangs of 15-16 year olds hanging around on street corners getting drunk, you'll have much bigger gangs of 15-20 year olds doing the same thing. Like it or not, the pub is the centre of social life in Ireland and if you exclude a group of people from it, you're left with the question - where do they go?

If you take the right of such a huge amount of people the go there, you will only get negative repercussions. If such a ban came into place, things like car-theft, petty vandalism and personal harassment would soar. You'd have much bigger gangs of scangers hanging around bored, getting drunk and causing trouble.

If you ban them from pubs, you won't stop them drinking, you'll just force them to do it in fields and on the streets.

Actually, you've hit the crux of the problem on the head, poor infrastructure and high prices means that drinking in a pub is just about the only affordable thing you can do here.

If people could go to clubs without getting wrecklessly drunk, it would be a good thing. However, I would suggest you spend a weekend working nights in a casualty dept in any dublin hospital and then tell me if you think that 16-20 year olds can handle their drink and that it isn't a problem here.

Winters · 17-02-2004 12:47PM

Originally posted by inaccessibleisl
I'm 19 and I can handle my bleedin drink, and I know everything, and I am as mature as anyone else and I can grow a deadly mustache in only 3 weeks'.

Your mad, I wish I was like you.

Most of the problem is the opening hours. All the pubs close at the same time and so you have large amounts of people coming out of them and onto the street at the same time and starting to cause a little hassle. I know from expierance in other countries that when a bar is open till 6am or later there isisnt as much problem as people do come and go, not all pile out onto a narrow pathway at the same time. Just because pubs and clubs are open later doesnt mean that people will be getting even more drunk etc. they will probably go out later in the night, stop drinking so quickly as they dont have to be worried about the place closing early and so on and so forth.

By changing the drinking age to 21 nothing will be solved. Kids will still try alcohol when they are 14 or so. A lot of the problem with underage drinking can be put to parents not knowing what their kids are up to. i.e 12 year old around the city centre at 1am drinking and smoking.

Also, everybody should be issued ID cards free of charge. I still havent been bothered to get one of the GardaID's due to the fact that being a student €5 is what I live on per week and also .... im lazy.

Imposter · 17-02-2004 12:47PM

Originally posted by syke
Actually, you've hit the crux of the problem on the head, poor infrastructure and high prices means that drinking in a pub is just about the only affordable thing you can do here.

What exactly do you mean by poor infrastructure? Why is it different to any other country (from a 16-20 year olds perspective). And surely the prices in pubs are quite prohibitive to a 16 - 20 year old?

Raise the drinking age to 21

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