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Starmer is in big trouble. If he goes, could gov fall - impact on the messy world we are in now

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Comments

  • #122
    Ozymandius2011
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,751 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570375#Comment_124570375

    I think the problem the Left is having is the economy is not the one that gave rise to Labour parties in the first place. That was a manufacturing economy, and they were originally about protecting the pay and conditions of workers, and building a welfare state.

    In the 1990s, Blairite Centrism compromised with the bosses and the investors in the privatised utilities. So there was no reversal of the anti union laws.

    In that context alone, leaving aside migration as an issue, these other things on their own probably made it inevitable that the continued support of blue collar workers for Labour would be in doubt.

    I think the welfare cuts especially to the elderly was a public relations disaster for Labour. Especially coming at a time when Labour bought off the NHS strike with large (I think 20%) pay rises. Echoes of the days of "beer and sandwiches" in Downing street. Public sector workers, unlike private sector ones, have a job for life so it's not the same.



  • #123
    OscarMIlde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570282#Comment_124570282

    Labour have been scapegoated for problems that the Tory party are answerable for. They were in power for fourteen years, plenty of time to enact changes if they wanted to. Ibwould say there is definitely huge Russian influence online pushing this message, just as there was with MAGA in the US. The fact that Starmer and labour were pillorised online so much for the Axel Rudubanka stabbings, when they were in power roughly two weeks was indicative of that to me.

    The problem Starmer had in facing this is that, rightly or wrongly, he seemed to have no firm convictions. The right wing press were going to demonise him no matter what so he may as well have ignored them and try to do what needed to be done.

    I will also add that the activist wing of the Labour party are losing a lot of centrist support. Delaying implementing the Supreme court ruling on women's spaces turns a lot of people off. Not acknowledging the disquiet people have regarding worries of ghettoisation and non assimilation of migrants from cultures very different to that of the UK. There are a lot of middle ground people in the UK who are politically homeless right now; they don't want looney right wing parties like reform, they don't want looney left wing parties like the greens and liberal Democrats and the Tory and Labour parties are riven by infighting and let's be honest, blatant amateurish.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • #124
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570476#Comment_124570476

    Labour have been scapegoated for problems that the Tory party are answerable for.

    They absolutely have, but ultimately politics isn't fair.

    I agree on Starmer lacking conviction unfortunately. Both in the face of his backbenchers (who are idiots who are guaranteeing they will lose their jobs) and the media. There is an utter refusal to accept economic reality and a delusional "tax the rich and it will solve everything" fringe that is making coming up with any practical solutions inside Labour impossible.



  • #125
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,707 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570476#Comment_124570476

    Ignoring them and trying to get things done is how you get the label of "no conviction".



  • #126
    MeisterG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭MeisterG


    What will be interesting with Burnham will be whether he can make any "tough decisions" per se whilst keeping together the "broad church" (read as herd of cats) that are his backbenchers. Brexit was never a silk-purse, but the way for the UK to embrace it is with a pro-business, pro-investment set of policies - however doing that would be anathema to tooth and claw red Labour. Economic decline in the UK is inevitable without it - a fact that seems to be hidden from the national discourse (in at least hidden by those with the loudest voices). The notion that solely tougher immigration policies or wealth taxes alone will generate the prosperity the population wants is laughable (but the worst sort of laughable in that you actually want to cry)



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  • #127
    Glaceon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,691 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570271#Comment_124570271
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570423#Comment_124570423

    I don't think you could please these types unless you rounded up every black and brown person on the street, regardless of immigration status, and deported them.



  • #128
    Big Ears
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,165 ✭✭✭Big Ears


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570586#Comment_124570586

    Oh you definitely couldn't, and once you got rid of any dark skinned people, they'd be looking to get rid of any Romanians, Bulgarians, then the Poles and eventually even Irish people.



  • #129
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,094 ✭✭✭✭briany


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570526#Comment_124570526

    What's annoying is the amount of money being sucked out of the economy by things like hedge funds and then it being asked what tough decisions should be made with the bit left over. If Burnham could challenge that class of people, it'd be genuinely interesting, but the last Labour to even suggest this (Corbyn) was absolutely hounded out of the job and hated by tabloids. But that's what Labour should be doing - checking the power of the super wealthy, if only in instances where their designs threaten to make life worse for everyone else.



  • #130
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570650#Comment_124570650

    Exactly how much money do you think is being "sucked out" of the economy by hedge funds?



  • #131
    MeisterG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭MeisterG


    There is no money being sucked out by 'hedge funds' - they are a bogey man. The money is being sucked out by unnecessary regulation (not all regulation is unnecessary but a lot of the UK's is), anti-business policies impacting confidence and general lack of attractiveness to outside business - plus a LOT of capital tied up in houses. To be clear this is not a left vs right thing - both are awful - one of the biggest crimes being Truss putting the currency into the "risk-off' bucket.



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  • #132
    Field east
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,394 ✭✭✭Field east


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570526#Comment_124570526

    The UK Labour voter needs to be very careful what she/he wishes for. Why?

    (1) Andy Burnham , from reports seems to have been an opportunist all his life. He will say what he thinks people like to hear

    (2) It is very unclear as to what his stance is on the whole Brexit situation and would he advocate the UK joining the EU again

    (3) his stance on NI is unclear. Eg would he support a united Ireland

    (4) he goes on about KS has lost his way , has dragged the party to the right and Labour needs to get back to its ‘roots’. He has not said what that means and how he plans to correct the situation

    (5) we know nothing about his position on the Ukr/ RU war. And would he advocate for more or less help going the Ukr

    (6) would he advocate more spending on the military and does he agree to the 5% of GDP going to the military

    (7) he has not given any details on the major actions/policies/ programmes that he sees as wrong with the present government and what he SPECIFICALLY do to reverse them/radically change them.

    (8) The UK is considering changing it’s PM and installing a guy that has not presented even ONE SYLLABLE of a programme for government and the cost of same and how that cost would be financed

    (9) The labour voter needs to take on board that KS became PM in UNPRECIDENTED times - could be called ‘ A Perfect Storm’ and especially from an economic point of view. He ‘INHERITED’

    (a) an economy in bad shape from the conservatives

    (b) having to navigate through the after effects of Brexit

    © the after effects of Covid

    (d) having to deal with Trump, his treats, tariffs, etc

    (e) the impact of the SMO

    (f) the refugee situation , the violent pushback by the right on the issue.

    (10) AB may have run a ‘successful show’ in Manchester but Manchester is not the UK . AB ‘s key to his success in getting things done , according to himself, is that he got the majority of the parties ,Eg conservatives , Lib Dem’s, Tories, to buy in to what he wanted to do . There was , aparently , lots of concurrence , cooperation , comraderie amongst the parties. If he becomes the PM it will be very interesting to see if he can work the same ORACLE at national level

    From memory , when FF and FG were at ‘each others throats’ xduring the era of single party government , there was a lot of cooperation/compromising between the parties at county council level



  • #133
    steinbock123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭steinbock123


    When the Conservatives were changing prime ministers nearly as often as I change my socks, the Labour Party were giving out stink and demanding a general election every time on the basis that each new PM “didn’t have a mandate from the people”.

    Isn’t it strange that there’s no mention of that now from Labour if, as predicted, Andy Burnham sails unopposed into No.10. But that’s politics I suppose.

    And can anyone tell me why the same Andy Burnham is so great, and an ideal PM?



  • #134
    Randycove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭Randycove


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571045#Comment_124571045

    or to put it another way, Burnham is another in a long list of people who point out what is wrong with the UK, but not able to come up with any solutions.



  • #135
    Randycove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭Randycove


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570911#Comment_124570911

    Apple, Meta, Alphabet and Amazon suck billions out of the UK economy and pay a pittance in corporation tax. Luxembourg, Ireland and the Netherlands are doing more damage to Germany, the UK and France than any hedge fund is.



  • #136
    aidanodr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,533 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    I think this does sum things up in the good shhip blighty?

    brexit graveyard.jpg


  • #137
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 55,078 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124570466#Comment_124570466

    The problem with the left are right wingers in leftist clothing giving the left a bad name. The Labour party promised social change and to be pro worker. What we got was Tory-lite, pro corporation and pro Israel. And this has meant another shift back further right because the left didn't seem to work when really it was just another form of the incompetent right, enriching their friends at the expense of everyone else.

    We don't need these so called moderate centrists as they just end up siding with the right. We need people like Mamdani that just get stuff done without worrying about upsetting big corporations and calling out their empty threats.

    Now we have Reform knocking on the door and if the brits thought brexit was an own goal, it's nothing compared to the dystopia those charlatans will bring in. Hope they like an American style health insurance system. Their only hope is if reform tear themselves apart before the next elections, and going by how stupid and incompetent they are that could happen.

    Keir Starmer's legacy is going to be all his human rights law work being forgotten and being remembered as a bottler that threw away a massive opportunity because he was too afraid of what happened to Corbyn happening to him. So he bowed to corporate and Israeli pressure and changed nothing while somehow managing to be worse than the Tories in some areas.



  • #138
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571307#Comment_124571307

    The UK has no money. They are facing a fiscal black hole.

    Starmer's govt had many faults, but they raised taxes on businesses (via employer's NI), raised taxes on private schools, removed the 2 child cap and massively expanded public spending, got closer relations with the EU. Hell, they even recognised a Palestinian state for those obsessed with them being Pro-Israel. What actually led to their collapse was funding issues.

    Unless Burnham plans to magic money out of somewhere/commit some kind of mass fraud then the reality is that either taxes need to rise (and no, not "on the rich", on everyone) or else significant spending cuts are needed. Significant portions of Labour and the larger left are living in a fantasy land.



  • #139
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 55,078 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571340#Comment_124571340

    Except we are always being told there's no money until someone comes along like Mamdani and actually follows through because, shock, there was money there. Labour just needed to do something but they tied their own hands behind their back trying to please everyone and what little changes they managed were overshadowed by the colossal mistakes they were making elsewhere. I won't even go into how bad arresting granny's while doing Israel's bidding looked.



  • #140
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571412#Comment_124571412

    Have you looked at what Mamdani has done in NYC? There is an absolutely MASSIVE cliff edge financial situation coming in a few years. He literally just deferred payments a few years - this is like trying to pay off your mortgage on your credit card for a few months.

    The Ratings agencies are all warning of structural problems with negative forecasts.



  • #141
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 55,078 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571445#Comment_124571445

    And it all just sounds like right wing scaremongering from financial institutes and the media they own because they might have lower margins because they might have to actually pay a little to contribute.

    And anyway even if the scaremonger is true at least he is doing and trying something instead of doing nothing because big business say don't do that it will hurt our profits that might trickle down.



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  • #142
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571465#Comment_124571465

    What he is doing is pushing the problem a couple years down the line like some kind of crack addict and just hoping to figure it out later.

    I like Mamdani, but his fiscal position is not good and his "solution" is dreadful and complete short termism. He has essentially made the pension position far worse in a few years to get some spending now - I imagine hoping he won't be there when the pension system collapses and needs to be bailed out by the State. All contributing to the inevitable collapse of pension funding nationwide.

    Reeves, I would add, has done something similar to release funding short term (and you are giving them zero credit for that). But eventually the piper needs to be paid.

    Was it "right wing scaremongering" when is torpedoed Truss' Premiership??



  • #143
    MeisterG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭MeisterG


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571218#Comment_124571218

    Will absolutely not debate you there! Hedge funds are if anything both relatively small fry and probably beneficial. The smart thing for the UK would be to lower its tax rates to corporates (actually the super smart thing would be to make NI a super lower tax jurisdiction). Even though the impact on the UK as a whole is relatively small (compared to Ireland) it would be a pro-business signal that is desperately needed



  • #144
    MeisterG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭MeisterG


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571340#Comment_124571340

    Agreed the UK has low employment and low unemployment at the same time - new job creation seems almost invariably to be at the Deliveroo Driver/ML Scientist ends of the spectrum. The graduate employment scene is horrific - there is nothing at the top of the escalator for a lot of kids £50K in debt. The UK (and to be fair other "mid powers") need a really good long-term vision right at the time they are playing reality show politics



  • #145
    RoyalCelt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124401718#Comment_124401718

    He's going somewhere now!

    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • #146
    Everlong1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Everlong1


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571340#Comment_124571340

    There's never any money until there's a war to be fought, of course. Then there's no expense spared. If the orange goblin had decided to invade Iran you can be sure Starmer would have commited British forces to help without a second's hesitation, just like Blair before him.



  • #147
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571584#Comment_124571584

    A massive part of the collapse of Starmer's Government is because he reduced funding for the MOD and the Minister quit.

    Also Starmer very clearly did not get involved in the actions against Iran. You are just making stuff up now.



  • #148
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I see Wes has dropped out of the running:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jun/22/andy-burnham-to-stand-to-become-labour-leader-and-uk-prime-minister

    Now Andy will have to put up with his constant campaigning.



  • #149
    ancapailldorcha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,470 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571498#Comment_124571498

    This is the same muck that Truss was spreading. She didn't exactly triumph.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #150
    Sudden Valley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,286 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571621#Comment_124571621

    A massive part of the collapse was due to the local elections losses. He was a dead man walking after them. I dont think defense funding was the reason why Labour did so badly in the local elections. I think that was due to a variety of reasons.



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  • #151
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124571699#Comment_124571699

    Defence funding and his defence minister quitting was the final nail in the Parliamentary Party. The local election losses weren't even as bad as predicted - but it was the Cabinet resignations that changed him from being on life support to being gone.

    "There is never any money til a war has to be fought and Starmer would have gone into Iran without a second thought" is clearly complete nonsense. He had enough problems without people just completely making **** up.



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