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Meanwhile on the Roads...

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    @fat bloke does have a fair point, both in jury and judge determined rulings that driving offences are often given much more lee way than many other type of offences. I think someone here once it as an unconscious bias because many drivers routinely breach road traffic laws, there is a perception of, that could easily have been me.

    But it could have been, the issue with a driver dominated culture, it might be very hard for a jury, or even a judge to be impartial. It is the reason when driving in built up areas, we drive slower, because these things are possibilities. No different than cycling, if you see a large crowd on the pavement, you move over to a primary or even right of primary position in the laneway. If you are driving a vehicle that does not have that leeway to maneuvre, you proceed a lot more slowly and remain alert.

    Like everyone else here, I wasn't at the trial, so I cannot comment but the Super believed there was enough to charge the defendant, the DPP agreed, so there is reasonable grounds to state those with expertise and experience believed a threshold was met that there was substantiative evidence that he was driving carelessly. Being declared not guilty does not change that. It doesn't mean he was, just that a jurys vote does not mean he wasn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Not speaking to the specific case in question, but that pretty much sums things up. Get off my road while I speed past you with my hand hovering over the horn. Motorists should drive in built up areas expecting people to stumble off pavements. But going by the speeds around me in D2, or in housing estates I drive through, a lot of them don't. Remember the outrage at the idea of speed limits being dropped to 30kmph??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,584 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    yeah, people don't drive with enough care or anticipate risks sufficiently. This is one of the reasons for 30km/h limits, they give you time to react to unexpected events. I'm very wary of pedestrians' unpredictable behaviour both when I'm cycling and driving.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    The prosecution presents evidence where independent witness testimony doesn't align is pretty much the end of any criminal trial



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Wasn't there, and the article is vague enough in how they state it, nothing seems to imply the witnesses disagreed with the forensic investigator. The article states:

    During the trial, Kevin White SC, defending, put it to forensic collision investigator Garda Gerard Dowd that some witnesses had described the woman as appearing to trip, fall forward, or be blown over.

    Gda Dowd agreed with counsel that there was an extreme weather warning in place on the day.

    All we know is that the truck struck her. Did she fall before he made the turn, did she fall as he made the turn, did she trip, and fall directly under the body, we simply do not know, and we do not know if the witnesses disagree with the forensic analyst or not. All we know is that the defence solicitor phrased it, I am sure factually, in a way that was most likely to sway a jury into finding in his clients favour. In a jury trial, the judge will guide the jury on matters of law but in the end, the jury will make the decision based on what was presented (with obvious caveats).

    My point specifically wasn't this trial, just that in many legal cases in Ireland, drivers tend to get much more leeway than many think appropriate and I suspect it is due to that bias I mention, the horrible feeling that some members of the judiciary will get, that could have been me. Judges throwing out speeding fines because they felt it was a trap, commenting on drivers only being marginally over the limit when a crash occurred, understanding that someone has to get to work to excuse uninsured driving, using neutralising language on phone use such as, glanced away…., just for a split second…., and so on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    I never said they did or didn't.

    Nobody here was in court.

    But there is a direct quote from the cross examination of the Forensic collision Garda.

    "During the trial, Kevin White SC, defending, put it to forensic collision investigator Garda Gerard Dowd that some witnesses had described the woman as appearing to trip, fall forward, or be blown over.

    That is the end of any prosecution.

    You don't need to be there when a key prosecution witness is admitting that.

    This was a criminal case, the onus of proof is on the DPP.

    This is really simple stuff



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Sorry, maybe I miscommunicated on this. It's a quote from the defence, same one I quoted. That might have been in the Garda report. The DPP might have thought, well she had fallen over before the truck turne, so it's not relevant. They may have pointed this out and it's not in the journal report. My point was the same as yours, we weren't there (court or the scene), whatever the actual story. Doesn't take away from what appears to be a bias in the judicial system, to be more lenient on motorists, not specifically this case (the woman might have tripped and fell into the truck and the minor bump on the noggin was what done it, not his fault at all).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    It's funny how cycling can condition your driving habits, and vice versa.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Macy0161




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    That should be a major expose which would lead to debate on radio shows, follow on articles and opinion pieces in newspapers, the Dail opposition jumping on it for political gain, government promising investigations and overhauls.

    But it will have died a death by the end of today. We'll hear nothing more about it in the media. And nothing will be done by government.

    But <checks calendar> some local councillor is due to take to social media calling for mandatory hi-viz, and that will get airtime.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    Would you go back and read the Journal report and get your facts in order.

    It's not a quote from the Defence.

    It's witness testimony under cross examination of a very important prosecution witness.

    When that type of witness is stating that there isn't full agreement among eyewitnesses as to what happened on the day must prosecutions are in serious trouble.

    You don't need any theories about driver think or whatever to explain the verdict which was unanimously reached.

    People being prosecuted in criminal cases are entitled to the presumption of innocence and the benefit of reasonable doubt by the jury. If eye witnesses disagreeing about what actually happen isn't that then I don't know what is.

    That in a very short report the journal.ie quoted the above piece of testimony should tell you something.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I don't think you are reading my replies, I am not disagreeing with you. Just to be a pedant, the quote you used, is the defence referring to witnesses (stated in the article "Kevin White SC, defending"). I was just saying, that (a) as is normal, the defence will phrase everything in a light to paint their client in the best light. I am not implying in any way shape or form that he is not innocent or that there was some sort of perversion of justice. (b) He knows the forensic investigator will have to answer yes, the witnesses did state that, but for all you or I know, that was included in the report, there is nothing implying that anyone said she didn't trip or fall..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    RIP Shane O'Brien

    That's tragic.

    Post edited by beggars_bush on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭carfinder


    He hit a parked lorry on the N72 road at Ballygalane, just outside Lismore, while on a training session shortly after 11am yesterday.

    Post edited by magicbastarder on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭LeoD


    https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/crime-courts/judge-takes-very-dim-view-of-speeding-prosecutions-in-limerick-8747212

    I would guess that many of these were doing well above the posted limit, hit the brakes on seeing the van but only got down to 109 before being officially clocked. Great attitude from the judiciary.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    No indication of what her issue is which was leading to the cases being dismissed?

    Another one for the DPP?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I wonder what other laws she takes a dim view of and despite the offender crossing the legislative threshold, she decides to dismiss the charge anyhow.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    It is a little odd coming so soon after another judge had his knuckles rapped for doing essentially the same thing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Almost certainly. Does my head in - driving at speed limit, cars flying past in the outside lane, speed van spotted, suddenly I'm having to hit the brakes and can't overtake because speeding cars on the outside are now going slower than me. A regular occurence.

    Unusually slow traffic the day before yesterday commuting in from Wicklow on the bus. The cause - there was an RTA and multiple garda/ fire service vehicle on the OTHER side of the dual carriageway, with a physical divide between north and southbound lanes, so absolutely zero impact on traffic going north. But of course - gotta slow to rubberneck. Before putting the foot down to get back to 110kmph.

    Goes to show have prevalent the attitude is to be honest. Will take some beating/ educating out of society. These are the same cohort who then opine on cycling/ pedestrian related matters - across everything from planning appeals, to PI claims, road safety reports etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭LeoD


    I'm guessing that she believes anyone detected going up to 110kph (the mythical 10% tolerance threshold) on a posted 100kph road is not really speeding.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    It's an odd location for a speed camera if it's primary function is safety.

    It's just at the end of a 100km/h zone for east bound traffic as they are about to enter a 120km/h. The junction between the two zones is identical to any motorway junction with a 120km/h.

    It would make way more sense to have them on other side of road; either to slow traffic approaching tunnel or indeed to have a fixed camera in the tunnel.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    let's not forget that go-safe vans are not actually intended to catch people speeding, their primary purpose is to act as a visual reminder for them to slow down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭khamilton


    To be fair; it's two very busy onroads in a short duration, one is from another motorway, and the first sliproad in particular has a high volume of traffic travelling at a low speed from an inclining corkscrew with a small enough slip road to merge with an already busy mainline.

    I travel it often enough and I've never felt it's unwarranted.

    Separately, to be detected at 109km/h, their speedos would have been showing at least 115km/h, or 15% indicated over the speed limit - so zero sympathy.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But the judge has no training (presumably) in traffic movement, traffic policing, road safety or whatever. She is qualified in hearing cases and interpreting & applying the law.

    She is not qualified to decide whether a driver is "marginally" over the speed limit or not any more than I am to decide that someone was marginally assaulted. Her job is to hear the evidence (and any mitigating factors) and if an offence was committed, then apply the appropriate punishment.

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,288 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    like i said, this is (on the face of it) very similar to the case where another judge was effectively reprimanded for misuse of his powers?

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-sharply-criticises-judge-who-dismissed-34-fish-in-a-barrel-speeding-cases/a/152329028.html

    are other judges a bit peeved about that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Or she's not aware that there is a 10% tolerance already included in the speed van figure.

    They were doing 120, 120÷110×100 is you've guessed it precisely 109, which is why there were two caught at that speed.

    As above, no sympathy here either, if they were actually doing 109 they wouldn't have been done. I foresee another rap on the knuckles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Usually places at points where previous accidents happened or fatalities

    Often the stretch of road has since been upgraded and so the van is in a prime position



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭khamilton


    There is no tolerance in the speed van figures. What they detect is what they detect. AGS decide not to apply FCPNs within a certain range of the speed limit, but there is no published or acknowledged rule on what that is.

    If GoSafe were modifying the detected speed and this modification was presented as evidence, it would result in the case being immediately dismissed.

    If a GoSafe van reports 109km/h, that is what they detected. Their equipment in other countries is calibrated to +/- 1MPH at all speeds.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    100% there is no leeway (past a calibration MOE, which I understand is under +/-1kmph). So if your ticket says 109kmph, you were doing 109kmph. Your speedo might marginally overestimate the speed, with valid reasons to do so, but GoSafe vans do not take that into account for a variety of what is hopefully obvious reasons.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Not that I'm wishing to get into another row here but there simply has to be a tolerance. Otherwise all court cases would become a minefield of exact calibrations of both the speed van radar and the car's speedometer.

    You said it yourself that the cars were most likely showing 115 on their speedometer, so it's entirely feasible that even though the speed vans can be calibrated to within +/- 1, they are actually calibrated to 10% below to remove the possibility of being challenged on their accuracy.

    It's nothing to do with AGS deciding who to prosecute, the vans themselves will only take a picture above a certain speed, I've seen this myself and it's very obvious when they flash.

    As I've said I've no sympathy for those who were caught as they by any measure clearly were speeding, and I know I said earlier the judgements may be reversed. But now I'm wondering given the 'official' speed of 109 in a 100 would that not be open to valid challenges re calibration too.

    Tldr is catching these drivers going to increase road safety, or should we instead majorly target the one travelling at 176 with hefty fines and bans? That would surely make more sense.



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