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Cork - Light Rail [route options identification and initial design underway]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,833 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I never understood why trams need brands. Can you not just get the tram. It won't change how good or bad it is.

    I understood distinctions between DART and regular train but not services like tram or underground.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Most transport systems have some sort of name or branding. Dublin Bus, London Bus, The Enterprise, Eurostar, Glider, RER, etc.

    Calling Luas just a tram would have undersold it as it might invoke visions of old fashioned low capacity trams rather then what Luas is, a high capacity, highly segregated modern LRT system.

    The Luas brand is incredibly successful and most people in Cork are very excited for it to be coming to Cork, it would be very stupid not to take advantage of this well known and well regarded brand.

    For Metrolink, I do think it would be better to call it “Dublin Metro”. I’m sure most people will just end up calling it Metro.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,833 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Dublin Bus and London bus are exactly what I am talking about. Just call it Cork Tram or now that Luas is established and not gonna change Cork Luas isn't the end of the world.

    RER, Enterprise and Eurostar are to distinguish them from the other trains running from the same stations and often on the same lines. As I said like DART that makes sense. You won't confuse the tram in Cork with something else because it's not called the Rebel line or the Jack Luanch.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    As is said calling it Tram would have been a bad idea as it would have undersold it.

    Manchester calls their trams Metrolink, Porto calls their trams Porto Metro, Docklands Light Rail, Sydney Light Rail, etc.

    If you went back 20 years, you could maybe argue for Dublin Light Rail, though that would clash with the DLR. I really don’t think calling it a Tram would have at all been a good idea, given Irelands history with older very different tram systems.

    Either way Luas is now a very well liked and understood brand and it we be stupid not to reuse it.

    Let’s be honest, Cork Luas is being designed by the exact same folks at TII who design Luas In Dublin, it will use the same vehicles, same track gauge, power systems, signalling, ticketing, etc. It is Luas’

    It would be silly and stinks of insecurity to want to call it something else just because it is in Cork!

    CACR is probably better one to focus on and come up with a better name for.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Mr.CoolGuy


    The problem with calling it "Cork Luas" is the heavy implication that Cork will only get one line, otherwise what would you call the next one? You don't have "Dublin Luas" because you have different lines



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Your opinion. Agree the Luas is a good launching pad but any city worth its salt has a good colloquial name for its rail that is internationally recognisable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,833 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Cork light rail is also fine with me. It's not the word tram I am arguing for it's that I'm arguing against a stupid supposed catchy term unique to Cork. Luas is fine because it's the established word for Tram in Ireland now so not the worst option.

    CACR will surely have to change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,833 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    In Dublin, Cork, Limerick or wherever you get the bus. You don't get the "Limerick bus".

    Same for Luas. If you said you were getting the Luas home when in Cork nobody is gonna be confused and thinking it's Dublin you mean. You can easily have a Luas red in Cork and in Dublin and no one will be confused if it comes to the point Cork needs coloured lines.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    By that thinking does “Dublin Metrolink” imply Dublin will only ever have one Metro line?

    “Dublin Metrolink” and “Cork Luas” are simply the project names of what we all hope is a future network of Metro lines in Dublin and Luas lines in Cork.

    You also have Finglas Luas, Lucan Luas, Poolbeg Luas, you had Luas Cross City. These are just project names, once built people don’t call it that, they just call it Luas or Red/Green Luas. No one is out there saying they are currently travelling on the Luas Cross City!

    People in Cork will probably just call it “Luas”, TII might end up giving it an official name like the Luas Blue Line, to indicate it is part of a future network.

    As an aside, behind the scenes TII does have different designations for all the different bits of the Luas network for instance “Luas C1” is the extension from Connolly to The Point.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    So you are saying Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt aren’t “worth their salt”!

    They all have S-Bahn, U-Bahn, Stadtbahn. Berlin S-Bahn, Munich S-Bahn, etc. just like Cork Luas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 483 ✭✭cc


    Is not called Luas Cork? Rather than "Cork Luas"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Qaanaaq


    I guess this line will have a colour assigned to differentiate it from future expansions. So this one should be named Luas "blue" line or whatever colour is picked. I don't think the name Cork is necessary but no big deal if it's added. I think Luas should be the uniform tram name in Ireland. Dart can't work as a brand for electric suburban rail outside dublin so another name will be needed for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭thomil


    That’s how I think of LUAS already, a catch-all term for a light rail network. I treat it akin to the term “Stadtbahn” in German. This is a catch-all term for networks that straddle the line between a traditional tram network and a metro. This can run the gamut from a network like Frankfurt, which has extensive underground segments and segregated running, but still shares tracks and road space with trams and traffic, to the likes of Karlsruhe, where surface running is the norm, and the system is indistinguishable from a tram in the major city centres that it serves.

    I do have a question though: Why is the English speaking world so allergic to simply using line numbers? What’s the problem with having a Line 1 & Line 2 on the LUAS, or on its UK counterparts. Why does everything have to be either colour coded or given a name? I just don’t get it! Same for using the same name for multiple branches? Why the hell does the LUAS Red line have four different termini, The Point, Connolly, Saggart & Tallaght? Why not simply have a dedicated line that runs between one fixed pair of termini?

    Anyway, enough for now, my blood pressure is high enough as it is 😜

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,270 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Luas is the Irish word for speed.

    It is not an abbreviation, so should not be spelt LUAS.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 312 ✭✭jimbob955


    Last week I saw Bishopstown GAA coming out sharing their "concerns". They were on Virgin Media also. A few local TDs/councillors came out, very much on the fence, but pointing out concerns in Ballincollig and the Bishopstown sports clubs. And then we had the echo saying there will never be a tall ships or cobh to cork race ever again if the Luas bridge goes ahead.

    Overall unfair, unbalanced views being shared, wouldn't expect any different I suppose



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    There are quite a few exceptions: Manchester’s network uses lettered lines. New York Subway famously uses letters. Sydney is very much in the Germanic model and uses T1,T2,T3,T4 for heavy-rail lines, M1 for metro, L1,L2,L3 for light rail. Melbourne’s huge tram network uses numbered lines, but its heavy-rail system uses line names.

    The US is really in love with “colour” (“color”?) line names. Chicago, Washington, San Francisco BART, and a load of smaller systems all use colour names. Personally, I really do not like this approach, as you very quickly run out of colours - English has only 11 fundamental, non-ambiguous terms for colours*, but in the USA you really couldn’t use two of these (Black and White).

    __
    * From oldest to newest: Black, White, Red, Grey, Green, Yellow, Blue, Brown, Purple, Orange, Pink.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭Mefistofelino


    Far prefer the naming approach taken in the likes of Dijon when the entire public/ active travel system all operates under one brand and promotes the idea of a fully integrated transport system from trams to buses to city-hopper buses to bike rental.

    Post edited by Mefistofelino on


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Colour names can be great as they can match the colour of the line on the map and it can use the same colours on the signs, platforms, vehicles, etc.

    and no it isn’t an issue for colour blind people as long as you also use the name “Red”, “Green”, etc.

    Of course as Kris says the downside is that you can run out of colours for bigger systems.

    I like the DART+ approach too, D+North, South, West, etc. as it gives an idea of the area of the city it covers. Though I don’t know if they plan to use that for the official line names, rather then just projects.

    I’m not a fan of a simple number, it doesn’t tell you much about the line.

    I’m also not a fan of systems that use one brand for all services, that is how you end up with buses called “Metro”!

    I think it is useful to differentiate between different type of services.

    BTW behind the scenes Luas actually calls the Lines Luas Line C, C1, etc. of course now that also clashes with BusConnects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 610 ✭✭✭BagofWeed


    Luas-Bus-Cork and run a bus along the closest routing to the never will be built Luas line. A bus with Luas branding on the side would be the most Cork thing ever and in fact would be very suitable for a city that loves to be awkward and stupid.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Naming really doesn’t matter so much as ticketing integration. So long as you don’t have to faff around with different apps and tickets to make your journey, it doesn’t matter who owns the service or what it’s called. Ideally, you pay once per journey, not once per mode-change.

    The Dublin 90-minute fare is really good example of what should be done: pay once, use anything you need to to get to your destination. Once you’re aware the a DART or Metro are railways, Luas is on-street light rail, and Bus is… well, bus, you can choose your route based on on your own needs.

    That 90-minute fare is also coming to Cork sometime this year, so whenever the Luas starts service, it will be under the same arrangement.

    The only name difficulty in Cork is how to brand the CACR services - it would be good to come up with a name that could also be used for future rollouts in Limerick, Galway and (maybe) Waterford too. There’s always Arrow, I suppose…after all, the branding was reintroduced for a commemorative trainset on Cork-Cobh back in 2024.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,171 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    I always figured it because it's just easier to quickly look at a map, and find and follow the colour line you are looking for. I think even if you had a numbered naming for lines, the maps would still colour them so they are easily distinguishable. So, cut out the extra step and just call the line by the colour. And for the different branches, you just have the terminating stops to reference. If you had each pair of terminating stops on a line named uniquely, I think you're just adding complexity. Personally I find it easy to reference the colour line and distinguish between the different terminating stops if I'm going somewhere that is only on that branch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    I don't think Arrow would survive the modern day Irish Language Act.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    CACR and Metrolink would have the same issue if that was the case.

    I assume you can just call it Arrow - Saighead and most people ignore the Irish as normal.

    BTW, yes I agree, I’d like to see Arrow being brought back for CACR and could be used for future Limerick, Galway networks too. A good match to DART.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW apparently there is an exemption for brand names in the Irish Language Act. They don’t have to be translated to Irish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Oh yeah, I’m just going to take the Cork Luas.

    A new transport mode is actually a great opportunity to stick a brand on a city.

    I agree with Luas as a means to get through planning but Cork should look for a system wide moniker.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,360 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No we shouldn’t, it is a very dumb idea.

    People in Cork have been campaigning to bring Luas to Cork for years. Despite the NIMBYs many Corkonians are excited at the idea of bringing Luas to Cork finally.

    If you go renaming it to something like Cork Light Rail, you risk people thinking they are getting something different from Luas, perhaps something worse then Luas. You will get less informed members saying things like “aren’t we good enough for Luas”.

    Luas is a very successful service and is a very well known and liked brand name. It would be very stupid not to continue to use it across the country.

    Just like the people of Hamburg wanted an S-Bahn of their own (second one after Berlin that created the term), the people of Cork want a Luas of their own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    “Oh yeah, I’m just going to take the Luas” is what someone would actually say. The context of the preceding conversation would provide all the information needed to determine which city’s service is being referred to.

    Brand names can be counter-productive, as they can imply a difference where none exists: Dublin has a “Luas”, but Cork only has a “[Special Cork Name]” because its light rail service isn’t as good?

    French cities name almost all of their urban light rail systems “Tramway de _____”, and nobody complains - even in a country filled with French people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Cork luas

    Cluas , which if they use the same bell sounds kind of fits well anyway ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭spillit67


    It’s a dumb idea to look to give a brand name for Cork to be recognised?

    Or maybe it’s the case that you can’t read. I said Luas brand now is fine to get through planning and the project to construction, I made this same point (which you’re getting the handy likes from others who clearly struggle with reading comprehension) that you’ve wasted paragraphs regurgitating for this pointless post.

    Longer term, yes I’d like an individual brand to wrap around the electrified rail and their light rail. Something distinctive for Cork and that can become the basis of expanding the service long term once that brand becomes accepted.



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