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Nuclear - future for Ireland?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Consonata


    > . It seems more a case of their prices being set in quicksand. In the last four years the strike price for offshore wind in the U.K. has increased by 75%, 20% in the last two years alone.

    This is the case across all energy types.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,965 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Not really.

    Gas, coal or oil haven`t increased anywhere near 75% over the last four years and the U.K. strike price for nuclear has only increases in line with inflation which is nowhere close to 75% either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,965 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Private equity does fund wind farms and that is the reason you could not uncouple from RES as they will just refuse to bid on any offering that has not the same terms, conditions, and strike price. You would have the same problem with private equity for nuclear even though the strike price would be for a longer period, once that strike price ran its course you could/would be held to ransom as well similar to how the U.K. Denmark and Germany were.

    You could look for a longer termed strike price due to the lifetime of a nuclear plant, but somehow or other the E.U. have a problem with that. Poland, where the state will own their plants wanted to set a 60 year strike price but the E.U. insisted on 40 years. Why I have no idea as the E.U. was putting nothing financially into the plants.

    Right now all the power is in the hands of those private equity funds. Even Denmark who are the majority shareholders in Orsted could not get them to bid for their largest ever offer. If a state wants to take back some control to stop them being held as hostages of fortune they will either have to fund the provision of electricity themselves or the E.U will have to change the rules. If there is another way I cannot see it.

    Legally the E.U. has painted itself into a corner imo, but there is one possible way where the could take the sting out of these equity funders. Changing the emissions levels mandates and fines for non compliance would remove a lot of the pressure from states having to accept the conditions these firms are dictating.

    I don`t know if Elon Musk having ready access to even more data would be something many would look on as a great idea.

    Edit.

    On the cost of nuclear, as I keep repeating, like anything else you cannot say one thing is more expensive than another unless you compare them on a like for like basic. And for all the costs that are being fired around for nuclear, nobody has so far come up with any detail as to the alternative they favour. let alone the cost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,965 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Simple solution. Get South Koreans to build them. They built the UAE plants on time and in budget.

    And before you post that they cannot in Europe due to an agreement with Westinghouse. There is also the agreement that they can build as long as they use Westinghouse reactors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    was it not 3 years late and 50% over budget ?


    2017 - 2020

    20bn -30 bn



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/third-unit-at-koreas-saeul-plant-starts-up

    In January 2014, the government authorised construction of two
    APR1400 units as Saeul units 3 and 4 (formerly known as Shin Kori 5 and
    6). … Prior to the delay, commercial operation of the units was due in
    March 2021 and March 2022, respectively. In late December 2025, the NSSC
    issued an operating licence for Saeul 3, with fuel loading and
    approximately
    eight months of testing to follow.

    BTW the construction license was applied for in 2012. It'll likely be Jan 2027 by the time testing from April has finished.

    The site already had two reactors of the same type, so it may take a smidgen (or two) longer on a greenfield site.

    Westinghouse have a 50% record in the USA since 1978. 50% of reactors abandoned. And 50% 50% over budget. You can transfer names and IP but unless you transfer the engineers it's not really the same company. BNFL (they of the missing plutonium and Irish Sea radioactivity) owned Westinghouse at one stage. cf: Rolls Royce is owned by BMW but all they have is rights to use the name. Whereas Bently is owned by VW who have the Rolls Royce factories and engineers.

    Korean reactors are improved Gen II reactors but without the expensive safety features necessary to be a Gen III reactor dropped to save costs.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,655 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Perhaps my earlier example was not the best?

    This small city bus service was created and subsidized for decades by one campus of the largest university system in California and United States. They are nonprofit and have sustained this service, some years at breakeven, and other years generating a surplus to buy new buses (now 5 hydrogen ) and also to build new bus service infrastructure (now building new hydrogen filling station).

    Free for students. And the only bus service for the non-student city residents who pay relatively low fees for this comprehensive city public transportation service. The city council has been historically very supportive, as it benefits both students and local residents.

    No competition by for-profit bus alternatives, either historically or now. Probably due to originally benefiting from leveraging earlier bank loans with collateral from being a part of the larger university system. Also occasionally benefiting from state and federal green environmental grants, depending upon which party was in majority in Sacramento and Washington DC. One party has been for, and the other has been against green alternatives to diesel buses. Admittedly, the oil and gas industry lobbyists have made historically large campaign donations to the party that prefers for-profit, non-green energy, in the 2 party system in the United States.

    On second thought, this makes me wonder if the Irish campus university system could offer some variation of a nonprofit bus service in their small city campuses to benefit both Irish students and surrounding non student residents? Then again, perhaps this is a bit of a stretch?

    Post edited by Fathom on

    Cmod Science, Health, and Environment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭Guy1ncognito




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    Unlike the waffler on previous pages I put my money where my decarbonisation beliefs lie well before most people in this country and learned first had precisely what 10% solar capacity factor means

    Sooner or later it will dawn on the rest of population that having Europes most expensive electricity while being fined billions by EU for remaining one of the dirtiest is an epic policy failure and daylight robbery



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Very happy with my system.
    Monthly usage is 1200kwh a month. Bills have been falling over the past few months. Will be negative till September and have credit to cover October and November bills.

    Getting 6MWh a year. Exactly what the model said I would.

    The government have really helped people lower their bills. The average unit price of my last bill was 1.8c/ KWh. (Includes standing charges )

    Some people are never happy.

    IMG_1328.png IMG_1329.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    So much winning

    IMG_7007.jpeg IMG_7009.jpeg

    One of the most expensive and second dirtiest again



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Consonata


    What makes Germanys electricity cheaper than ours



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,517 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The guy’s quoting spot-prices as if they’re steady-state. I wouldn’t bother…

    We all know that gas-generation in Ireland is very expensive: first you have to get the gas here, then you have to burn it, but you can’t sell any surplus because our neigbhours can get the raw gas much cheaper than we can.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    And why do we need so much gas if it wasn’t to backup unreliable renewables that most of the time do f all

    IMG_7010.jpeg

    And let’s not forget we have the most expensive consumer and business electricity in Europe according to Eurostat

    nuclear neighbours like France who prop up the massive deficit in their grid, cheap coal Poland and hydro storage powers like Switzerland and Norway

    None of which applies to Ireland and Germany also had to restart brown coal plants because they stupidly shutdown nuclear prematurely

    Anyways Germany are second most expensive in Europe despite being so well connected (and spending a trillion euro) which should tell you something



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    So you agree that out geographically location is a key contributor to our high prices, along with our lack of AC interconnectors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    Key contributor is the unreliability of renewables, Germany on this day managed to have a good spot price but they are still fully dependent on nuclear France and other neighbours and still were quite dirty

    More interconnections would cost billions, see the Celtic interconnection of only 700MW (to nuclear France!) which got delayed by another two years and now will be above 2bn euro for something that doesn’t even produce power

    We would need 10x the interconnection capacity (and pray French continue to have bumper nuclear surpluses) or continue to burn gas

    It be the height of hilarity that having spend so many pages arguing against nuclear the country becomes reliant on nuclear coming down expensive wires and us becoming reliant on nuclear France just like Germany is 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    once again you show your ignorance. I said AC interconnecters. DC counts as SNSP and doesn’t offer any voltage or frequency support time and time again display your lack of knowledge of power systems.

    If a cable can go so far over budget. What do you think will happen a nuclear plant.

    Who is arguing against nuclear? . All I’ve ever said is it will realistically take 40 ’years and what do we do in the interim and the price is prohibitively high.


    On the day and time of the screenshot you posted huge amounts of wind and solar along with a drop of in industrial demand is the reason for the low prices. You just strengthened the case for RES. Look it up before you may silly claims.
    on the 14june Germany was exporting excesss solar to France

    Post edited by ted1 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    The radioactive wasteland of Sweden is about to become more radioactive

    IMG_7011.jpeg IMG_7012.jpeg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    look at all the cheap hydro, it really makes a difference. They effectively switched Gas for hydro, once again a geographical benefit that we don't have.

    A snapshot in time is entirely pointless. A broken clock is right twice a day.

    Here's some context to your link. In 2025 alone Sweden installed as much wind as its nuclear program will over 20 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    That’s great we should build more hydro so /s

    because the famously sunny country of Ireland has loads of still dam-able rivers and mountains like Sweden

    Wait till you discover the cost of hydro storage too



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Notice where I said the geographical benefits we don’t have.

    Sweeden uses dammed riverr runs Not overly expensive for what you get

    You need to learn how to read posts and how to add dialogue when you spam posts with screenshots while adding no context or dialogue

    Post edited by ted1 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Consonata


    They aren't? Barely any of their energy was coming from France at the time you captured. It was predominantly wind?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭tppytoppy


    470MWe for 60 years of reliable base load and delivery by mod 30s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,493 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    On the day of the screenshots you posted Germany was exporting excess RES to France.

    Now do you understand the benefits of AC interconnecters vs DC interconnectors. ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭Consonata




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    World's oldest operating nuclear units back on India's grid - World Nuclear News https://share.google/Ms942iOJSy6NqpOZz

    This is one of those some good / some bad type articles, yes it's back in production, .. but its been in refurb since 2020 ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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