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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭50HX




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭OldRio




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    No, I said this didn’t need special funding from CCs, it’s the sort of thing you’d expect competent management to identify and implement a long time ago, and my argument was money isn’t a solution that seems more cultural than anything else.

    My point was - Munster have consistently pushed for the short term fixes of NIQ or IQ signings to solve short term problems rather than actually use some of that funding to address longer term structural issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,328 ✭✭✭Brief_Lives




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And, in the absence of a Time Machine to go back and implement these “a long time ago”, Munster are doing it now.

    Like the old saying goes.

    The best time to plant a Centre or Excellence was 20 years ago. The 2nd best time is today.

    Some achievement to be taking absolutely the right approach and simultaneously always looking for the easy fix tho.

    Schroedingers Rugby club.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Well the one in Cork opened last October and the one in Fethard was opened in June 2023, and while both are a good approach and to be obviously welcomed, they’re also hardly a revolutionary or novel approach to player development, surely?

    I genuinely do hope they work out well and would welcome seeing more of these all over the country tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Maybe not particularly revolutionary or novel.

    But (and this part is important).

    Nor are they a “short-term easy fix”.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It is as I thought, fairly understandable from the IRFU/Leinster perspective, they wanted to move a player on an expensive contract onto a pay for play contract, while it's also understandable from Lowe's perspective, he wanted to maximise his earning potential over the last years of his career.

    Tough outcome for all involved, but honestly, it's probably the right outcome for all involved at the same time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah it all sounds fair enough. I don't blame anyone in the situation. Cost restraint is really hard and always means making people unhappy. Fans are already unhappy with the cost of tickets and costs go up naturally with inflation.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    I guess you could argue that the IRFU could have approached him in a different way, a "we love you, and want to keep you, but we're short of cash and we're really worried about your fitness" kind of way. Being upfront with him about it might have increased the chances of him staying, particularly if the timeline is how he puts it across, i.e. the first he hears of it is his +1 being cancelled.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Conor Murray in todays Times accepts hes a pal of Lowe but thinks its a serious mistake for Ireland to let him go and we may well regret it next year at WC. At least its good to have someone who doesn't sit on the fence.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I strongly believe that if there is a "+1" element to a contract you either activate it or you want the player gone. Trying to give them a lower deal afterwards is utter bullshit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,599 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    Well played by the IRFU having AF not being in front of the media until 2 days before the Australia game.

    The ultimate hospital pass to Leo and Leinster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭TRC10


    So why did we only do it in the 10 position? There were so many other positions we needed to develop more than out half. We just had a 10 in his early 20s come in and play brilliantly, whereas in other positions we had ageing players visibly in decline, yet there was no “experimenting” in those positions.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Cause the choice at 10 had nothing to do with depth or experimentation ultimately - I don't know why people bring that up as a reason. He was picking who he thought was the player playing better.

    Something he has shown willingness to do in other positions also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I think people will only realise the loss of Lowe when we end up with Osborne covering the wing like he did in the 6N game against France last season.

    We seem to be banking on Baloucoune and TOB to stay fit or Stockdale to regain his 2018 form (and stay fit). Hansen is quality but has been injured for the guts of 3 seasons now (24 games since the NZ QF in 2023) so seems rather optimistic to pen him in to the Irish 11 jersey this stage. Incredibly shortsighted to limit your potential options further for the sake of about €100k.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    Not sure who had written him off, a lot of people knew very little about him because of his injury issues and the fans that did knew if he could just get a run without injury he would be an incredible player

    Let's hope it continues



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I don't know why they only did it at 10. Lack of viable options at 13, maybe?

    The point is people call for experimentation but don't like it when they get it. The rows over Sam vs Jack demonstrate that, even when it's framed as building depth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,757 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I haven't really read much abut the Lowe move and though he played really well when he finally appeared in the 6N he is not the player he was. Sympathetic to keeping him tough, as we are light on the wings and no-one else has anything like the physicality, distribution or kicking game he has. In my mind I assumed the margin here was more like 500k though, 100k, really? That's absolutely nothing to keep him, surely its more than that?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Installing Prendergast at 10 clearly wasn’t “experimenting” though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    As per John O’Sullivan in The Irish Times:

    Leinster made him an offer he could refuse. The IRFU declined to PONI (player of national interest) up the spondulicks, to supplement a contract that with the union bump from previous deals was reputed to be worth in the ballpark of €350,000 per annum. The revised offer might have been closer to the €200,000 plus change mark.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,087 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I don't know why they only did it at 10. 

    The need for an alternative option at 10 was the most pressing, but Prendergast was only one of four new caps awarded during that November series, so whether it was experimenting or just - gasp - trying new players, painting it as the “only” one is a bit odd

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭fitz


    It's not just about money from the IRFU and CCs, or well funded schools, but people seem to think Leinster have been given too much money unfairly. I've said before that I don't think CCs are a reward, they're an output metric of how well a province is doing at producing players that are getting selected for the national team. Leinster didn't get a bunch of CCed players overnight, and the money they've generated for themselves from their consistent involvement in finals has been overlooked in the argument, imo.

    But what doesn't make any sense to me about this whole thing is implementing a 40% cut in a single year. If CCs were currently spread more evenly across the provinces, it would make be easier to cut that much that quickly. With the number of Leinster players on CCs, having to find 40% of those wage bills in a single year seems like an insane thing to do in any business. Why not phase it over 3 years or something?

    Post edited by fitz on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    But they haven’t implemented a 40% cut in a single year.

    Two years ago, an “up to 30%” cut was introduced. Now it’s been increased to 40% from next season.

    That’s a stepped introduction by any measure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭bingobango12


    That’s an absolute insult if he was offered 200k. A second line manager salary in Dublin in many industries ffs.

    Post edited by bingobango12 on


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭fitz


    Did they? I thought it was only going into effect now? Even still, expecting 30% of CC values to be found to pay already committed salary levels to just be whipped up handily or absorbed without negative impacts is not based in reality.. For any business, that would be, to put it mildly, significant. And the Lowe situation is, imo, a direct result of the commercial pressures that have come with that cut, with the RDS redevelopment being an aggravating factor too.

    As usual, I wish there was less of a right/wrong/polarised view of this on here. Is more funding to the other provinces required? Sure. Should there be more accountability for the poor return on that funding and more robust challenging of the executive leadership of the provinces? Too right there should. Does tweaking the CC system make sense to help achieve goals? Sure. Can we also accept that in the short term, there will be negative impacts to Leinster as a result? I don't see how anyone can deny that either. Many things can be true at the same time, this whole picture is nothing but greys.



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 9,579 ✭✭✭fitz


    Interesting that the offer is at least a 33% reduction. You'd have to think that the offer is pretty much the amount Leinster were paying into his pot up to now (the gap aligns too much with the funding reduction levels the IRFU are applying to the CCs to be coincidence), and they weren't able to increase a player's wage bill by 30+% for an older player who won't be available to them for half the year, when they're already having to effectively do that for all their CCed players. This smacks of Leinster and the IRFU sticking their hands in their pockets and stubbornly refusing to come up with a compromise between them, and absolutely bungling the treatment of a player that deserved more to be discarded as he has been. It all leaves a bad taste, and neither come out of it looking good. Totally understandable why people are pissed off, imo. What's bound to piss Leinster supporters off even more is to have their valid disappointment and anger at how this has gone down to be dismissed as the big moneybags having a whinge and being oblivious to the other provinces needing more funding. Especially when we've watched some pretty wasteful use of those funds by other provinces over the last 10 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭clsmooth


    I’d be laying the blame squarely at the IRFU’s door for this-they were the ones who withdrew his contract late in the day. Expecting Leinster to come up with the PONI amount on top of paying 40% of the IRFU central contracts from next season on isn’t reasonable and we’ll see more players forced out as a result.

    It’s a real shame for the player, Leinster and Irish rugby and the fans. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth never mind how Lowe and his current club and international teammates must be feeling. I’d be happier if he’d been the one who decided to cancel the contract and take advantage of a huge contract elsewhere rather than the way Irish rugby has disposed of him.

    Going on, do the provinces have any say in contract negotiations with centrally contracted players? Will Leinster be happy if the IRFU decide to offer Furlong another central contract post World Cup? I suspect Leinster would be happy to save a few quid on him and let him go off abroad at this stage.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭TRC10


    It’s a real shame for the player, Leinster and Irish rugby and the fans. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth never mind how Lowe and his current club and international teammates must be feeling. I’d be happier if he’d been the one who decided to cancel the contract and take advantage of a huge contract elsewhere rather than the way Irish rugby has disposed of him.

    This sort of sentiment really irks me. He’s not been “disposed off”. He was offered a contract on less money than he was on before, and HE chose to reject it. There’s nothing distasteful about the IRFU no longer wanting to subsidise the salary of a 34 year old winger whose performances have been in decline for a prolonged period. Especially after he’s been recently injured, and the players that have replaced him have actually performed BETTER than what he was showing. If Ireland wanted to keep him that badly, they could have found the funds. There’s nothing distasteful about his franchise offering a 34 year old winger a contract worth less than his previous contract. Especially when they only see him for 10 games a season. And there’s nothing distasteful about a player at his age taking up an offer in Japan that benefits him and his family.

    James Lowe doesn’t owe Leinster or Ireland anything. And Leinster or Ireland don’t owe anything to James Lowe. Leinster/Ireland gave him the opportunity to play international rugby and set up his family better than if he’d stayed in NZ, and he’s been an amazing player for Leinster and Ireland. Everyone has fulfilled their end of the bargain. But it’s just time to move on. The only reason this whole situation leaves a “sour taste” in the mouths of Irish people, is because we’re so used to players in the country being kept on far, far longer than they should be. And people expect everyone to get the ridiculous f*cking 2 year long farewell world tour that Healy/POM/Murray got. Do people really want a 35 year old James Lowe starting for Ireland at the World Cup next year?



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