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Russia-Ukraine War (continuing)

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Sortof?

    Patriot’s an extremely good missile, but Ukraine does not need all the capabilities it brings. (Actually, Ukraine couldn’t use all the capabilities it brings, even if it needed to). There is space in the market for something less capable and thus cheaper, and with the possible exception of NASAMS/SLAMRAAM, nothing in US industry can provide it. Pretty much everyone in the west is starting from scratch, Europeans are at no more a deficiency than the US companies so they have the same opportunities, and I’m sure the US companies are looking at the same problem set. I would have thought that a downgraded French SAMP/T might fit the bill, but European multi-national projects don’t have the highest success rate. Politics keep getting involved even before differing national capabilities requirements.

    For countries which can use the full capabilities of Patriot, there is nothing on the horizon which can touch it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 447 ✭✭somenergy


    Russia "the big bear" is no slouch it has thrown the kitchen sink to break Ukraine, after the US there no other army even china's weapons evolved/copied from Russia so am sure they have tested to its limits.

    Am not criticising patriot but its the licensing, expensive missiles and its lack of modern ai hotwar testing readily availablte in Ukraine.

    Other factor Ukrainians have shown their inventive ability coupled with a historical weapons engineering experience supplying the old Soviet union, part of the reason putin want them back under control.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,644 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Even if Putin somehow took all of Ukraine in the morning, they'll never be under control. The atrocities since Feb 2022 have seen to that. His best hope of ever doing business with them would be a withdrawal and payment of reparations.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Field east


    Trump is not the first one to do ‘U Turns’, ‘TACO strategy, ‘ ‘ off again, on again strategy’ etc, etc. The Grand Old Duke OF York was at it away before him!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,134 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The is the new version 😁

    Oh, the grand old Duke of York,
    He had twelve million quid,
    He gave it to someone he'd never met,
    For something he never did.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I'm afraid this may come under the category of "I know something you don't know." The system has more capabilities than has been seen in Ukraine which is part of the reason it's so expensive. One publicly known example is IBCS IFCN integration with the F-35. This isn't the full reason for the price, but part of it. I don't think there is any other system in the world which can do everything Patriot can (and to be fair, this applies to a number of the US made systems: Ukraine can't use all the capabilities and not because they have been given downgraded versions of the missile: eg it doesn't have F-35s). In the Ukrainian case, it was "here, have these expensive overcapable systems, or nothing since we only have the expensive overcapable stuff".

    There are two separate problems. There is the problem of the Ukraine battlefield, where volume and "we only need enough capability" will work. This is where the gap is in which European manufacturers can viably compete. The other problem is for a different environment in which the full capabilities of the American systems are desired. Given the state of current capabilities and known future development programs of various nations around the world, it will be decades before anything like the full capabilities of US systems will be made by any other Western nation without at least a partial reliance on US exports. And that's assuming that the multinational programs don't fail.

    If it's simply a matter of producing in volume, then that comes down to willingness to invest in capacity. If you don't want to wait for the American factories, just build it yourself. The US is not the only manufacturer of Patriot, Germany and Japan both have production facilities, Poland last week got preliminary approval to build its own factory. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/us-opens-door-to-patriot-missile-production-in-poland-as-alliance-shifts-from-deployment-to-industrial-integration/3949225

    Cost can also be reduced by appropriate production scheduling: scale, for example, has a significant effect.

    What makes most sense for Europe is to fill in the newly identified gaps that the US does not currently cover before the Americans (or Koreans) do it, not to try to duplicate capabilities and compete directly, thus splitting the market unnecessarily and making things more expensive for everybody.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Getting off topic, but surely given the large quantities and massive cost of what has been used in Iran and the questionable effect of it (geopolitically at least), there is surely an argument that the US could also do with lower cost, lower capability equipment in order to have larger inventories. And by refusing to engage with and supply Ukraine they are just shooting themselves in the foot on developing that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,134 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    The new question being asked by much of the World is can we trust the USA to supply & let us use US weapons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭Field east


    for those that never heard of the Duke :-

    “The grand old Duke of York,

    He had 1o,ooo men ,

    He marched them up to the top of the hill

    And he marched them down again.

    And when they were up they were up

    And when they were down they were down.
    And when they were half way up they were neither up nor down”

    I reckon the MAGA concept/existed before the current MAGA followers!



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Ukraine struck Russian drone operators in Pokrovsk. Also recovered some territory in the Lyman front. As long as Lyman doesnt fall, Kramatorsk is probably safe from an attack from the north.

    The situation in Kostyantinyvkva is troubling but it seems so far it's a Russian infiltration rather than a massive presence. The last of the infiltrators in Kupyansk have reportedly been cleared according to Kings and Generals channel on YouTube.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭wassie


    I think Germany is currently sorting that question out.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    Its reported Ukraine is talking to Diehls about possibly producing Flamingo cruise missiles in Germany. Part of Germany looking for alternatives as the US refuses Tomahawks agreed to by Biden.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    It is a very good argument. Look at LUCAS and then look at Shaheed, for example. There is no need to keep using Tomahawks when the capabilities of Tomahawks have done the difficult bit and are no longer needed. Just drop some JDAMs or fly a few LUCAS, and the Tomahawk expenditure rates in Iran reflect that. The geopolitical effect is one thing, but the capabilities are another. Political constraints and desires can change quickly, R&D and production take a moment or three.

    There are also multiple ways to skin a cat. Ukraine is still fairly heavily invested in ground based air defense. Yes one occasionally sees footage of a helicopter door gunner or Yak backseater engaging drones with small arms, but it’s more interceptor drones, surface launched missiles, or ADA. Whereas the US can fly plenty of aircraft with APKWS in a more hostile environment than Ukraine can manage it in.

    There is also a caveat to the idea. There has been rapid generational change in combat requirements in Ukraine. The expensive stuff works pretty much all the time every time, but the cheap stuff becomes obsolete quickly. This isn’t a problem when it is being expended as soon as it is built, and I doubt much Ukrainian production is being diverted to long-term storage. When a system becomes obsolete, they change the production. However, when you’re talking about war stocks for a military the size of the US’, they can’t build a million of the cheap things and just leave them in storage until needed. They will be near useless in two years. Instead, the US needs to develop a stockpile of upgradable systems, which can be quickly updated to current standards. These inherently have to be more expensive than the super-cheap things, and will “hold the line” until new production of “from the start” currently viable cheap things can be built and then shipped straight to the launch platforms in theater. There is a semi-related precedent in WW2: Instead of changing the production lines of aircraft to meet latest standards, the old variant was still produced, and they were sent to an upgrade facility to change out what was needed to be current.

    Your last line is also subject to a caveat. The US, as many have noticed, have an “us first, and the others as available” policy. Systems like LIDS/M-LIDS, MADIS or Sgt Stout are all in production and fielding to units, and are specifically designed to be low-cost systems to defeat low-capability assets like drones or Shaheeds. I suspect Bullfrog or similar technology will not be far behind in fielding, but US needs have not yet been close to being met. It’s also worth noting that APKWS/VAMPIRE is selling rather well on the export market (and has been used by Ukraine).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭scottser




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,581 ✭✭✭z80CPU
    Darth 8-bit


    as in Russian armoured vehicles deliberately crushing civilian cars on the road. The Russian Orcs displayed their true professional character then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,366 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Not a fan of the Telegraph but worth a read. All the economic cracks becoming impossible to ignore

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2026/06/13/russian-mp-warns-putin-were-on-the-brink-of-social-collapse/

    A Russian MP has demanded that Vladimir Putin deliver a plan to end the war in Ukraine as he berated the Kremlin’s “ineffective leadership”.

    In a lengthy tirade, Vyacheslav Markhayev listed corruption scandals, oligarchy, losses of the “most active and reproductively capable segment of the population” and Ukrainian drone strikes among the ills plaguing wartime Russia.

    “The time of illusions is over. The country is on the brink of a social explosion, and the blame for this will fall squarely on the entrenched ruling power,” said Mr Markhayev, a deputy of the State Duma from the Communist Party.

    The deputy joins a growing list of public figures who have broken from the official line to voice criticism of the authorities.

    Late last month, Renat Suleymanov, a State Duma deputy from the same party, called for the “earliest possible end” to the war, saying the economy could not “withstand” its continuation.

    In March, Ilya Remeslo, formerly a staunch Kremlin loyalist, turned against Putin, branding the Russian president “a war criminal and a thief”, and calling for him to be put on trial.

    Discontent with the authorities has simmered in the past few months, linked to sweeping internet outages, sluggish progress on the battlefield and long-range Ukrainian strikes that have penetrated the heart of Russia’s two biggest cities.

    This week, it was reported that the state-controlled Russian Public Opinion Research Centre would stop publishing Putin’s “open” trust rating as it plummeted to the lowest level since the start of the invasion.

    Concerns about the resilience of the economy have also spurred a backlash. Growth has slowed to a crawl, inflation remains elevated and Ukrainian attacks on refineries and terminals have bitten a chunk out of Moscow’s oil-driven budget, sending crude processing to a 16-year low.

    Meanwhile, high defence expenditure, which has reached post-Cold War heights, has triggered increasing alarm in Russia’s finance ministry.

    Military spending increased by more than 30 per cent in early 2026 compared with the year before, reaching 46 per cent of total budget spending, according to Dr Janis Kluge, an economist and senior associate at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs.

    This means almost every second rouble spent from the federal budget was allocated to the military.

    “The pace of military spending looks even more impressive – and, from the Kremlin’s perspective, concerning – when compared with budget revenues... military spending was equivalent to two-thirds of Russian budget revenues in January to March 2026,” said Dr Kluge.

    Instead, it has only deepened concerns. One topic of discussion was the absence of Elvira Nabiullina, the governor of the central bank, usually a fixture at the event.

    The Kremlin claimed she was on sick leave, but rumours have swirled about the protracted absence of Putin’s top economist.

    This week, she and her deputies also skipped an interest rates meeting with the Russian president and his senior ministers.

    Russian independent channels, citing sources close to the government, have claimed that Ms Nabiullina has handed Putin an ultimatum that she will only serve out her term on the condition that he does not escalate the war with border closures and martial law.

    Another source told the Mozhem Obyasnit channel that she was planning to leave the central bank imminently, which would amount to a significant upset.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,084 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Just want to give my early condolences to his family after he falls out of a 12th storey window while scuba diving.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,804 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    Kyiv Independent posted a video about the situation in Kostiantynivka



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    1000022344.png

    Finally the British have seized a shadow fleet tanker



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,644 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    I'll know its all over for Russia, the day we seize one. Hopefully soon.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,204 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,720 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    I take an unashamed pleasure in seeing Antonov aircraft wreaking havoc on Russian infrastructure. Poetic justice for what they did to the An-225 Mriya



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,204 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Looking forward to seeing how many they managed to ignite.

    What typically happens to these shadow fleet tankers after Western countries conduct their investigations? Do they keep them docked or let them off again?

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyek039l2vo

    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,255 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    The russians won't have much use for them at the rate of refinery infrastructure sanctions.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    The US defense company Textron Systems has resumed production of Mobile Strike Force Vehicles (MSFV), an armored platform that has not been manufactured since 2019, with 65 vehicles scheduled for delivery to Ukraine.

    According to a June 14 announcement by Textron Systems, the vehicles are being assembled at the company’s facility in Louisiana as part of a contract funded through the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative (USAI) under the US Foreign Military Sales program.

    “Sixty-five MSFVs will be delivered to Ukraine to support its defense ground forces, providing enhanced protection and maneuverability on the battlefield,” Textron Systems said in a statement. The company added that restarting the production line required months of preparation, coordination, and manufacturing readiness efforts.

    The contract is valued at $163.4 million and includes one year of spare parts support. Work is expected to be completed by November 30, 2028.

    The MSFV is an upgraded version of the M1117 Guardian armored security vehicle, which is already in service with the Ukrainian military. The platform was originally developed for the Afghan National Army and was last produced around 2019 before production was halted.

    Skruffy on youtube says has acheived a breakthrough in Kostyantinyvka, cutting the high rise part of the town off from supplies.Says this will give Russia control of half the town. Skruffy says though that it will still take months or years for Russia to take the rest of the fortress belt.

    Post edited by Ozymandius2011 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,204 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Scum. Always wanted to visit this place. Hopefully the damage isn't too bad.

    Absolute **** vermin killing 5 firemen tonight in kharkiv

    https://united24media.com/war-in-ukraine/five-ukrainian-first-responders-killed-in-russian-double-tap-strike-on-kharkiv-19813

    Post edited by RoyalCelt on

    I'm on the verge of a site ban. Please don't rage bait me, I'm easily triggered especially late at night!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,804 ✭✭✭✭Jelle1880


    And there is zero doubt it was on purpose. They hit the Pechersk Lavra, Mystetskyi Arsenal National Art and Culture Museum Complex and the Dovzhenko Film Studio which is the oldest in Ukraine. Three major Kyiv/Ukrainian cultural institutions hit in a single attack in a single city.

    The Kharkiv Art Museum was hit yesterday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    "Christian values" Russia bombing one of the most sacred buildings in the Orthodox faith is very on brand.

    Disgusting fascist barbarians who are lashing out in desperation due to the inept performance of the Russian army in the battlefield.

    Glory to Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭wassie


    And the RuZZian bulsh!t continues….

    In a statement on Monday Russia’s Defense Ministry said it had carried out strikes on “targets within the defence-industrial complex in the cities of Kyiv, Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk.”

    The world needs to see this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Didn't I say we should brace for war crimes in response to UAF's successful targeting of Russian oil and Crimean logistics? It was inevitable given the complete lack of a moral compass in the Kremlin.

    You'd imagine the UN would have something to say about this kind of carry on, but generally silence. And then you have the drip feed of people calling for Russian reinstatement into the global art and sports communities. F**k off.



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