David Humphreys - IRFU Performance Director

I'm sure we've been though this before, but you brought Penney at some point I think, and he is a good example of the point. Less than 10 starts a season in 8 seasons, and not a player wracked with injury. He is a good player, maybe a bit undersized but I don't think he's had a CC start in his time at Leinster. He is not a test player so doesn't fall under the player management system yet he has played relatively little rugby for a guy entering his prime years. This is a depth issue, has it held him back? Maybe. Compared to the likes of Coombes on 108 starts in the same number of seasons (though he does play CC). Your point about Leinster giving more players minutes…Yes, perhaps because they have had more players! Often up to 5 or 6, plus a bigger academy. Now that the squad has been trimmed I guess we'll see whether players get more starts earlier.

A more interesting argument is to consider the benefit to Leinster of the Irish system moving away from Leinster being the sole incubator for test players and that burden being spread back to the other provinces. Even with fewer players Leinster should have more of their team available through out the year, and if Humphries succeeds in that, more power to him. The over reliance on Leinster has been good for results but not great for Irish rugby in general.

I genuinely don’t think you even know what point you’re trying to make here anymore - but citing Scott Penny as some sort of example of a guy who hasn’t gotten opportunities is absurd.

From his Ireland U20s peer group, he has played more minutes of senior rugby (109 games, 6156 mins) than any other player:

• Scott Penny - 109 games, 6156 mins
• Craig Casey - 115 games, 6000 mins
• John Hodnett - 93 games, 5160 mins
• Ryan Baird - 90 games, 5208 mins
• Niall Murray - 95 games, 5072 mins
• Dave McCann - 90 games, 5843 mins
• Harry Byrne - 96 games, 4239 mins
• Dylan Tierney Martin - 75 games, 2597 mins
• Josh Wycherley - 87 games, 2849 mins
• Tom Clarkson - 81 games, 3311 mins

Plus a load of other lads like Ben Healy, Jake Flannery, Liam Turner, John McKee, Martin Moloney etc who are nowhere close to Penny.

In what earthly world is Scott Penny a good example of Leinster not giving opportunities to players?

At some point soon you need to throw out that shovel.

He wouldn’t have played a whole lot more URC or certainly European knockout rugby at any of the other three provinces either.

Dave McCann - who plays the same position as him effectively up in Ulster has played in 9 knockout games in his career to Scott Penny’s 8, but 6 of McCann’s 9 games are in the Challenge Cup, while 4 of Penny’s 8 games are in the Champions Cup.

“Starts are what I’m talking about” - sure, just keep trying to change the narrative repeatedly and I’m sure eventually you’ll stumble on some metric that might work for you.

You put forward the assertion initially that “Leinster’s roster hasn’t necessarily served player development well and is costing Ireland because younger players aren’t getting enough opportunities” and since then, you’ve absolutely tortured the point and ignored the following:

• when it was pointed out Leinster give considerably more minutes to young players (players 24 or younger) than any of the other provinces and more minutes to Academy players than any of the other provinces you ignored all of that data and large sample set and said: “well what about these two idiosyncratic examples of players”
• The two players you cited were a flanker who has as chronic an injury list as an player Irish rugby and Leinster’s fourth choice scrum half who potentially wouldn’t have even had a contract at any of the other provinces
• When that didn’t work, you moved the goalposts again, and said well what about Scott Penny?
• When it was shown to you that he had played more minutes of rugby than any player from his peer set from the Irish U20s you move the goalposts again to now make it purely about starts, or make it about knockout games. All the while let’s ignore the fact that the fact Penny has been competing for minutes and starts over this window with a player who has been World Player of the Year and who is phenomenally robust and consistently excellent in his performances. Surely that plays a massive part in player development too; training alongside world class players and trying to claim the shirt off them?
• When I’m showing you now that he has played in largely the same number of knockout games (and considerably more Champions Cup games than another back rower from his Irish U20 team, I’m sure you’ll try and dig up some other way to shift the goalposts again. What’s next, let’s compare Conor O’Tighearnaigh’s minutes to Iain Henderson’s or something?

Certainly don’t bother doing any analysis at how good the other three provinces have actually been over a longer time frame at giving opportunities to younger players, because I’ve a feeling that won’t suit the narrative you’re pushing either.

At some point, maybe stop and recognise that your little hunch or intuition is actually just that, and isn’t something that’s backed up by any actual facts or data, and admit you got this one wrong.

They've had players coming out their ears, a dozen lLions and 20+ internationals and have 1 trophy in 5 years, the depth has delivered very little though it depends on how you measure success. A lot of teams would be happy to be serial contenders in knockouts, semis and finals. In Penny's case he would have had the opportunity to play at the highest level the team gets to, he hasn't had that opportunity in Leinster. There are quite a few players there who would do well to shift. Conway and Jordi did well out of it (because players want to play), and I expect it will be a good move for Frawley. And minutes are a data point that tells us little more than whether a player is actually exhausted late in the season, starts measure how a club values a player. Few teams are well enough stacked where the subs are genuinely regarded as equally able as starters. Your rhetorical style has become increasingly shrill btw, you should have someone take a look at that.

Yeah Jordi Murphy did great out of moving - he went from earning 25 Ireland caps over a few seasons, winning multiple 6 Nations titles, starting (and winning) a Champions Cup Final with Leinster, to earning a further 6 caps over the next 5 years or so and never winning another trophy. A real poster child for moving.

It is tiresome to keep hearing the same nonsensical points with little backing them up, and a repeated moving of the goalposts.

He left Leinster to get game time which was going to SOB/Leavy w VDF emerging, and had 3 good seasons at Ulster, incl a few caps but there he had the same stiff competition. He also captained Ulster, no doubt those seasons saw more gametime for him that he'd have had at Leinster against those guys. He did an interview outlining all this a couple of years ago.

Look away @Paul Smeenus - but another point I do find unusual and surprised it has gotten virtually zero play in the media around David Humphreys' role as IRFU Performance Director is how that intersects with his brother's role as one of the biggest agents to Irish rugby players.

David Humphreys is in the most prominent role in Irish rugby from a player contracting perspective, and Ian Humphreys seems to operate a quasi-one man band agency for a number of years named Anzo Sports, which represents all of the following:

• Ronan Kelleher - Leinster
• Tom Clarkson - Leinster
• Craig Casey - Munster
• Robert Baloucoune - Ulster
• Jacob Stockdale - Ulster
• Nick Timoney - Ulster
• Ciaran Frawley - Leinster
• Tom O'Toole - Ulster
• Tom Stewart - Ulster
• Jimmy O'Brien - Leinster
• James Hume - Ulster
• Max Deegan - Leinster
• Shane Daly - Munster
• Will Connors - Leinster
• Ed Byrne - Cardiff / Leinster
• Brian Gleeson - Munster
• Scott Wilson - Ulster
• Evan O'Connell - Munster
• Alex Usanov - Leinster
• Diarmuid Mangan - Leinster
• Ruadhan Quinn - Munster
• Stewart Moore - Ulster
• Josh Wycherley - Munster
• Sam Illo - Connacht
• Ethan McIlroy - Ulster
• James McNabney - Ulster
• Niall Murray - Connacht
• Finn Treacy - Connacht
• Dave Shanahan - Ulster
• James Humphreys - Ulster
• Joe Hopes - Ulster
• Henry McErlean - Leinster Academy
• Oliver Coffey - Leinster Academy
• Gene O'Leary Kareem - Munster Academy
• Jacob Boyd - Ulster Academy
• Caspar Gabriel - Leinster Academy
• Max Flynn - Connacht Academy
• Ciaran Mangan - Leinster Academy
• Sean Walsh - Connacht Academy
• Eoghan Smyth - Munster Academy
• Todd Lawlor - Leinster Academy

It's certainly an unusual scenario I would have thought to have a scenario where the IRFU Performance Director is sitting down opposite his brother potentially to thresh out contracts for some of these players (as they ascend up the Irish reckoning).

This is certainly a far more valid and reasonable criticism than, for example:

• Humphreys introducing the 40% CC contribution to appease people shouting on Twitter.
• Leinster not having 11 Central Contracts fully paid for is hindering them at every turn.
• Humphreys - the IRFU Performance Director - being happy to, net, make the Provinces worse, in an effort to even up the Provinces

Which are all distinct and various degrees of hysterics we've heard on here over the last while.

I think even if it were the case he was discussing with the other guy, it would still be with a company his brother is a Director of, and I still think the appearance of potential conflict would still exist.

I agree with you, to be fair, that Ian Humphreys has been operating as a rugby agent for a decade, pretty much immediately as soon as he finished playing, but I think it's just another reason why David Humphreys wasn't the right appointment for this role to begin with.

It is insane, in a market as small as Ireland, to have a situation where he's representing 31 senior contracted players (18% of all senior contracted players in Ireland) and another 10 Academy players (13% of all Academy players), and the guy who is one of the very most influential stakeholders around the prospects of those players is his brother.

To be fair, there are a few who have been cut loose this year on the client roster (including, most notably James Humphreys):

• Ed Byrne - got a mid-season move to Leinster, but doesn't appear to have a club beyond this
• Dave Shanahan - finishing with Ulster
• Gene O'Leary Kareem - cut from Munster Academy
• Henry McErlean - cut from Leinster Academy

Also a couple who have been subject to topical renewals:

• Ciaran Frawley & Will Connors - both leaving Leinster this season

James Lowe is an outlier amongst Irish rugby players in that he is represented by a more international agency (Mn2S), and his agent is not from the usual stable of former Irish pro players.

I’ve never listened to this podcast and don’t plan to but surely this isn’t a good idea. Tommy Bowe at least come across as a somewhat intelligent ex player but I assume an ex player that has crossed paths a lot with Humphrey’s.
MOD EDIT

I can’t see what benefit will come out of talking to them from an IRFU standpoint.