Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

How many of us think that unification is no longer a priority and don't really want unification ?

13435363739

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    I am asking you, you claim that Northern Ireland will not lose the little identity and independence that it has, yet you will not express any support for a federal or confederal solution. The two positions are completely contradictory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I don't think the 'Northern Ireland' identity is a real one. It's a holding place for those disgruntled with Unionist or Republican politics.
    Regardless of what I or you think, all identities will have to negotiate and persuade.

    That's a proper functioning democracy.
    We have seen what artificially protecting ONE identity can do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,440 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Just because things look similar doesn't mean that they are the same.

    Loyalists thugs in NI have a long habit of attacking outsiders and minorities. They've been firebombing catholics for over a century. This is an extension of that. They hate outsiders and they target anything they perceive as a "Threat" to their community or their power.

    yes, there are riots in other places in europe, but they don't have the same root cause.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    That is a prejudicial and condescending post, telling people what identity they are allowed hold as a real one. It is a bigoted position to deny people their identity. I have met enough of people to know that their Northern Irish identity is real.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I told nobody nothing.

    I gave my opinion.
    You want to identify as a golf ball, you work away.

    Don't expect me to advocate on your behalf though, you do that yourself.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Telling people their identity is not real, do you realise how bigoted and condescending that is?

    There is a place called Northern Ireland, there are people that come from there who call themselves Northern Irish, and you want to decree that isn't real?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Not only that, but FrancieBrady would want to bully and intimidate the PUL minority in a U.I. The only plan he was able to give for a U.I. was that disgruntled unionists would be paid to leave the island. I asked him who would pay for that, it would be the British taxpayer of course.

    Even if Republicans did get their socialist 32 county United ireland with the tricolour and soldiers song and brits out, they would be looking for extra things like Rockall or reparations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn't tell a soul anything.
    I said I don't believe the Northern Irish identity is a real one. I am open to persuasion and can change my mind.

    If it is, then those with that identity have the same rights as anyone else to look for that identity to be protected.

    Same as those with an Irish identity have had to fight tooth and nail since partition to have their identity recognised and given the same esteem as other identitiies.

    I won't be taking any lectures from someone who has never advocated for that identity either and who routinely dismisses what it wants.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    The key point is that current ideas and proposals for a united Ireland as put forward by SF thinktanks have zero traction, no movement in the polls, are effectively dead in the water.

    New ideas are needed, and the only possibilities lie in federal or confederal approaches that recognise and embrace all identities including the Northern Irish one.

    Imagine someone going around and telling the Palestinians they were not entitled to a Palestinian state because their identity was not real, that they were really Lebanese, Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian. That is the equivalent of what is being said here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody is going to make the case for  federal or confederal approaches, except those who want them or think they are good ideas.

    Nobody with any political weight is.

    Who is making the case for the Northern Ireland identity to be enshrined in either the existing jurisdiction or a UI?

    If you can point me to reasoned arguments I'm more than willing to take a look.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    The Northern Ireland identity is enshrined in the current set-up - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It does mean something, despite your condescending dismissal. Nobody needs to make an argument for something that already exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭rock22


    Is a Northern Ireland identity different to a Belfast identity or a Derry identity?

    I Ireland we seem to be able to accommodate a Kerry identity, a Galway identity, a Dublin identity etc. all in a single state. What is special about a Northern Irish identity that needs to be enshrined in law.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    'Tis on the passport of the state that pays the pensions, schools etc there. "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Cannot be much clearer than that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    It is the identity of the State of Northern Ireland. We have a Northern Ireland Assembly, last I checked we didn't have a Kerry assembly, ditto many many other Northern Irish institutions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    My view is that it is an identity within a British or Irish identity and wholly depends on how you view the constitutional question.
    It isn't a 'national' identity in the sense the other two are.

    Similar to being 'Connacht and Irish'

    Or 'Yorkshire and English'.

    Again, if someone is making a credible case that it is otherwise, show me the argument. More than willing to consider.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Tell Rory McIlroy he isn't Northern Irish, that it is only a sham. He is not the only one.

    You need to broaden your circle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That it? That's the 'argument'?

    Ok.

    I have no intention of 'telling' Rory anything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That there is momentum and pressure to act on the ruling parties can really no longer be denied.

    FG to deliver a 'blueprint on Irish Unity' by November.

    It will be interesting to see what the level of detail is and there was zero surprise hearing Neal Richmond say on Morning Ireland that of course it would be detailing a United Ireland and that all parties and stakeholders will have to come together to create a Plan/Green Paper, that was the only way it could happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    To be fair, that is not the same as the identity being enshrined in the current set-up, that's just a legal title of the nation which includes the three constituent jurisdictions on the island of Great Britain — and then Northern Ireland. It does not afford any specific legal recognition of a "Northern Irish identity". Ultimately, the legal position is that those born in Northern Ireland can be British, Irish or both.

    The problem when one is talking about a singular standalone Northern Irish identity is that it can sometimes come across as a bit of a head-in-the-sand act of denial as to the reality of the situation — that situation being that ultimately the sense of being Northern Irish still relies heavily on the concept of whether that identity ties to Northern Ireland within the UK, or Northern Ireland in unification with the Republic. I would venture that even those who declare their identity singularly as Northern Irish still ultimately retain a leaning either way.

    In other words, a Northern Irish identity is still ultimately founded on a sense of a British Northern Ireland or an Irish Northern Ireland. I myself am from the North and I certainly have a sense of a "Northern" / Ulster identity, but that sits within my sense of Irishness as opposed to any sense of Britishness.

    I don't necessarily have any problem with the concept of a Northern Irish identity, but it can sometimes seem like a choice people make who wish to perhaps detach themselves from any sense of 'picking a side' — but ultimately that fundamental British or Irish side is going to lean a certain direction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    In other words, a Northern Irish identity is still ultimately founded on a sense of a British Northern Ireland or an Irish Northern Ireland. I myself am from the North and I certainly have a sense of a "Northern" / Ulster identity, but that sits within my sense of Irishness as opposed to any sense of Britishness.

    Exactly this.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    Yes, that probably applies to everyone over 50 living in Northern Ireland, but the younger generations are different. Some of them are children of immigrants to Northern Ireland who only know second-hand of the tribal sectarian differences, they don't feel it themselves. Others are five or six generations removed from 1922 and a separate Northern Ireland is normal to them.

    As for those avoiding "picking a side", the reason most likely is that neither side appeal to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    But that doesn't change anything — there is no such thing as a separate Northern Ireland regardless of whether someone feels strongly on its constitutional status or is entirely disinterested. Northern Ireland has only two futures: one remaining in the UK or one unified with the Republic. There is no third option at present and it's unlikely there ever will be.

    Yes, there are those who don't care either way. But to not care either way is paradoxical to the existence of a Northern Irish identity in the first place. Because if you don't care about its fundamental constitutional status it's hard to argue that you feel strongly about being Northern Irish as a distinct national identity. The people you speak of who are detached from any preference as to NI being British or Irish are essentially the "go-with-the-flow" types who will accept either outcome without strong view (or so they say, ultimately they will weigh up what they think is better for them) — but that means they don't have a strong observable identity as regards Northern Ireland itself in the first place. If Northern Ireland were unified with the Republic tomorrow, thus ending its existence, they would simply go along with that. That doesn't strike me as being a core fundamental identity on their part.

    Which leads me back to the original point. Those who declare their identity as purely Northern Irish will in my view likely lean in favour of a certain context within which that identity exists - British or Irish. And if they don't care either way then that strikes me as an expression of not feeling strongly about the identity at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    That's the thing, there is a separate Northern Ireland, a football team, a football league, sporting icons who claim Northern Ireland as their home like McIlroy.

    It is an awful lot more complicated than your simple binary claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    Most fans of the Northern Ireland national team will lean towards an NI identity that is distinctly British in its fundamental nature, all the way to the fact that the national anthem is God Save the King.

    The Rory McIlroy example is often used and often used fairly misleadingly as this kind of 'third way' example. McIlroy seems to dislike the question, and understandably so, and he has spoken himself of the nuanced nature of his identity but you will note that his comments always relate to some split between Irishness and Britishness. In other words — the identity does not really stand on its own, it relies on the two fundamental identities of Britishness and Irishness. It's not an identity that ever seems to be properly expressed as being singular and independent.

    The absolute number one indicator here however is that there is literally nothing resembling a political movement or party in Northern Ireland that promotes the idea of a fully distinct Northern Irish identity that is entirely removed and independent from Irishness or Britishness. It remains in my view similar to my own sense of there being a Northern / Ulster identity on my part — but it sits within an Irish identity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    No identity stands on its own, no identity is fundamental. The Irish identity and culture is built on a long line of English-speaking artists. Are we Irish without Oscar Wilde, W.B. Yeats, the Dubliners or U2?

    Languages borrow from other languages, cultures from other cultures. Irish identity could be described as Hiberno-British identity just as accurately, as there is as much influence of Britishness in the identity as there is of distinctively Irishness.

    That Northern Irishness has roots in both Britishness or Irishness is not a surprise, that it has evolved from British and Irish identities is inevitable given the 100 years of distinctiveness. Do not underestimate how much Northern Irish people like the idea of Northern Ireland.

    It will be interesting to see Fine Gael's work on this. I think we will have the good republicans who are lauding it today describing it later as a stalking horse for unwelcome ideas such as federalism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who is lauding it?

    We will see what it has to offer and remember FF promised similar but never got it done.

    If there is support for a federalist approach, so be it. Would not be my choice but I'm a democrat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    You're right that all identities are influenced by others but when it comes to national identity it's clear which ones have grown to become primary nation state identities (which themselves have become the primary mode of human identity upon which the modern international system is built) and which ones are more secondary to those in terms of local regional identities. Agree to disagree but I still would argue that the Northern Irish identity is a secondary identity which sits under someone's overall feeling of Britishness and Irishness. And as mentioned, I'm not saying this as an outsider — I am a born and bred northerner from County Down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    You see that whole primary mode of human identity of nation states is a construct of Western imperialism imposed on the rest of the world. Try explaining it in terms of the borders of Africa.

    Ghana's national identity, to take one example, is far newer than that of Northern Ireland, born of an artificial construct, yet the nation is united in the World Cup.

    There is comfort in the idea of Northern Ireland, small comforts, and you should not underestimate the resistance to changing small comforts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    What is most interesting is that the initiative demonstrates that an individual political party can produce a plan, despite us being told numerous times that wasn't possible.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,061 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They are producing their ideas.
    As other parties have done too.

    It is not a definitive 'plan' which you would know had you listened to Neale Richmond, that will be produced by all parties and stakeholders coming together.



Advertisement
Advertisement