Is Irelands neutrality stance in WW2 unfairly criticized? (see Mod note 217)

I was just about to quote that section and say this:

A well argued section here about the unfairness of the criticism and the falsehoods it is based on.

Gallipoli reference is interesting. Guess who championed that disaster.

Yes, the Chief of Staff was obviously aware of his PM's past.

Having read about his antics in Italy too and Eisenhower’s opinion of him in his diaries I realise British people have to blind side all that to vote him greatest. His oratorial skills are not in doubt, he could talk the talk but he couldn’t soldier worth a damn tbh

Einerhower and Churchill had a close and successful working relationship, and Eisenhower even gave a glowing tribute at Churchill's funeral in 1965. There is still a bust of Churchill in the White house. The U.S. Navy rarely names any of its ships after foreign politicians, but made an exception by naming one of its destroyers after Churchill. That was in the late nineties as far as I remember. It was named to honour his courageous WW2 leadership and to symbolize the enduring "special relationship" and alliance between the US and UK.

One thing for sure, after Roosevelt's row with Aiken in the US when Roosevelt got so annoyed with Aiken that knives and cutlery went flying, they were not going to name a ship after any of our wartime politicians anyway.

lol. Actually British and Commonwealth losses in WW2 were relatively low, as far as WW2 went, with what was it 70 or 75 million dead? And they won both wars, neither of which they started.

But for Churchill and his government, western Europe would have fallen to the Nazis. The Nazis showed no hesitation in invading neutral countries when it suited them and sending their citizens to Slave Labour and Extermination camps - same would have happened here.

You just never got over the fact your fellow Republican Sean Russell tried to collaborate with the Germans but failed.

Like any other leader he had his good and bad.

I do think a lot of his bad and very bad stuff is wilfully overlooked, but then the British always had an ability( or had to have, I would say) to turn a blind eye and overlook the excesses, violations and complete fuckups of the Empire machine.

True. He did not seem to understand how badly WW1 had damaged the British empire. FDR appeared to have a much better understanding and also understood the value of a neutral if Allied leaning Ireland. A considerable number of Irish emigrants and people of Irish descent fought in the US forces. that was a significant voting bloc. Even with a nepo-crony appointment like Gray, there seemed to be a lot of political realism from the FDR administration when it came to Irish neutrality. There was also some performative indignation for what may have been public consumption by the British. It was not going to change Irish neutrality and FDR may well have understood this even if Churchill did not.

TBH the impression I have is that Churchill was drunk a lot of the time, especially on those late night calls and arguments with Eisenhower.

I think that was also the reason Dev had the measure of him and largely got the better of him..

Not so sure about him being drunk. There did seem to be a kind of Dunning Kruger effect in that he believed in his own military abilities despite the war being incredibly complex. Eisenhower did an amazing job holding the Allies in Europe together even when Montgomery caused massive problems in the aftermath of the Battle Of the Bulge. Again, like Churchill, Montgomery was a recipient of Enigma and Ultra intelligence. Rommel was a far better general. Without the intelligence advantage, things might have turned out differently in North Africa. Operation Market Garden (Arnhem) was an example of what happens when crucial intelligence is ignored.

The Germans feared Patton. they didn't have the same respect for Montgomery. D-Day could have gone badly wrong and as it was, a lot of German forces escaped through the Falaise Gap due to Montgomery's incompetence. He caused a lot of problems for Eisenhower but he could not be replaced for political reasons until after the Battle Of The Bulge. Perhaps that was the point that crystalised the UK as being a second rate power in geopolitical terms. The geopolitical situation was already changing. There's a photo from the Yalta conference that shows FDR and Stalin with Churchill almost being superfluous. Montgomery apparently considered himself a Derry man.

I said in post number 2690 "Not surprised you hold in high esteem the man who most historians agree was the commander of the IRA unit involved in the ethnic cleansing involving the murder of 6 totally innocent protestant civilians and burning out of many more in 1922.

Says it all."

The conversation has now since moved on to the " nützlicher Idiot " (useful idiot) of the Nazis….the man whose respect for Hempel and Hitler was obviously more than for the poor Irish merchant sailors in Hitler's slave labour Nazi Concentration camps, 22 of whom died in dreadful conditions.

Nobody mention "beyond fair dispute", but if you look it up on the internet you will see that most historians agree he "was the commander of the IRA unit involved in the ethnic cleansing involving the murder of 6 totally innocent protestant civilians and burning out of many more in 1922."

From what others say, it is accepted that given his position as IRA divisional commander, he would had to have given his approval for the Altnaveigh attack.

JMCC appeared to excuse the massacre by saying "the Unionists were killing Nationalists and vice versa. It was a nasty conflict."

More info on the "Butcher of Altnaveigh" here:

Not at all, as anyone who has analysed the situation and facts would know. Look at it this way

Hempel was a Nazi party member and was Hitler's representative in Ireland. He had met Hitler in a private meeting and would have known only too well of Hitler's final solution, the murder of 6 million jews and millions of other minorities etc. He would have known what happened to minorities in the 6 neutral countries that Hitler invaded. Between 1939 and 1945, the Nazi regime exploited an estimated 20 million individuals as forced and slave laborers. Hempel came to and remained in Ireland knowing all that. It is beyond belief that Dev did not know how the Germans were treating Jews and other minorities. The first concentration camp was liberated in summer 1944, yet Hempel and Dev continued their friendship after that.

Had Hitler's plan for the conquest of Europe succeeded - and it nearly did - we in this country would have provided people for his slave labour Nazi concentration camps too. The same as the Germans put 50 captured Irish merchant navy seamen to work in slave labour Nazi concentration camps. Where 22 of them died in horiffic conditions.

No wonder Hempel was so distraught at the news of Hitler's death, wringing his hands etc when Dev called to sympathise on behalf of the Irish people, if you don't mind. The only P.M in the world to commiserate on the death of Hitler. Did either Hempel or Dev sympathise with any of the families of the Irish seamen killed in Hitler's slave labour Nazi concentration camps, which they both knew about for years? If they cared about them, and they knew about the plight of some Irish prisoners since 1941, how come the prisoners - those lucky enough to survive and not die in the camps - were actually liberated by the British army on their push eastwards through Europe in 1945?

Actions speak louder than words: neither Hempel or Dev commiserated on the death of the Irish people in the slave labour Nazi concentration camps.

Agree they were different times, doesn't change the possibility he may have been, or was likely to been, leath ar meisce during key exchanges and meetings. The 'a nation once again' one sounds like he was.

Whatever, Dev seemed to have the measure of him, sober or drunk, which was our gain.

Amazing how certain posters have an obsession with Churchill - I suppose we do owe him an incredible lot, considering how we sheltered behind Britain during the war and if it fell to Nazism - which it nearly did -remember the battle of Britain, the Blitz etc - then we in Ireland would have had the same fate as the other neutral countries Germany invaded. Millions sent to slave labour and concentration camps etc. Would have been ok for Dev himself, his good pal the Nazi party member Hempel ( who knew what was going on in Europe all along) would have saved Dev himself, same as Dev saved Hempel when the allies wanted him for questioning after the war (as all Nazi diplomats were wanted for questioning at wars end in 1945).

The "nützlicher Idiot" would have been spared in the event of a German victory. A lot of the rest of us would have the same fate as those Irish seamen who died in the Nazi slave labour Concentration camps, the ones Dev and Hempel knew about but failed to liberate.