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Is Irelands neutrality stance in WW2 unfairly criticized? (see Mod note 217)

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Answers

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,897 ✭✭✭jmcc


    ChatGPT or Google Gemini? Are you making things up again?

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Read one of the many books on the battle of the Atlantic and you will be better off than making a personal attack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,304 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Evans certainly doesn't say anything of the sort in The Third Reich at War' and given the absence of references or quotes I doubt he ever did.

    Captain Stephen Roskill (author of the official 3 volume 'The War at Sea' for HMSO) devotes about one page in his shorter 'The Navy at War 1939-1945' to neutral Ireland.

    Referring to the former RN bases at "Berehaven in the south and Lough Swilly in the north" he says:

    "It seems incredible that, as recently as 1938, we had voluntarily surrendered our right to make use of these bases, and without any conditions regarding their re-occupation in the event of war. Nor, when negotiations were opened in 1939, would the government of Eire do anything to mitigate the consequences of our disinterested but short-sighted act. The only substitute for the abandoned bases were Belfast and Londonderry in loyal Ulster: but they were both considerably further from the waters where the escorts had to work, and neither of them were adequately equipped to serve as a base. As long as our ships had to start out from the Clyde, Liverpool, Midfordhaven and Plymouth, and had to turn for home while they still had an adequate margin of fuel, we could only escort the convoys out to the meridian of 15 degrees (about 200 miles to the west of Ireland, or in the case of south-bound shipping, to the 47th parallel:' and this was very soon shown to be inadequate."

    Above quote from 'The Navy at War 1939-1945' by Captain S. W. Roskill D.S.C. R.N. (retd.) Wordsworth Military Library 1960.

    The Royal Navy in WWII and after were obviously peeved that Neville Chamberlin had in 1938, with token opposition from the Admiralty, negotiated away their rights to the Treaty ports. 'The Eire government' were being made responsible for British "disinterested" decisions apparently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    It was an act of generosity and goodwill by Chamberlin. Churchill, while not in power at the time, was opposed to giving the treaty ports.

    During the war, the Germans sunk 3,500 merchant ships in the Atlantic alone, with the loss of their valuable and badly needed cargoes and many men. Think of the damage that did to the allied war effort, never mind the human cost. Probably even prolonged the war.

    Post edited by Francis McM on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And Churchill as was his want, tried to bully via his press and running to America got told to royally fook off and why he should fook off.

    “I would have refrained from making any comment upon it were it not that it has been followed by an extensive Press campaign by Britain itself, and re-echoed in the United States of America, the purport of the campaign being that we should surrender or lease our ports to Britain for the conduct of the war…

    We have chosen the policy of neutrality in this war because we believed that it was the right policy for our people. It is the policy which has been accepted, not merely by this House, but by our people as a whole, and nobody who realises what modern war means, and what it means particularly for those who have not sufficient air defences, will have the slightest doubt that that policy was the right one, apart altogether from any questions of sympathy on one side or the other…

    There can be no question of the handing over of these ports so long as this State remains neutral. There can be no question of leasing these ports. They are ours. They are within our sovereignty, and there can be no question, as long as we remain neutral, of handing them over on any condition whatsoever. Any attempt to bring pressure to bear on us by any side—by any of the belligerents—by Britain—could only lead to bloodshed.”



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You are right there, in the early war years Dev and co thought Hitler would win, and as Roosevelt said, Aiken was recorded as having said Ireland would have nothing to fear from a German victory. Dev and co. backed the wrong horse. Even disgraced US ambassador to Britain, Kennedy , who had to resign, thought Germany would win.

    Luckily enough Germany did not win the war, because it showed it would put Irish men in slave labour Nazi concentration camps when it could. Without much protest from Dev either, who knew about those 50 Irishmen, 22 of whom died in the Nazi camps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭adaminho


    Aiken was not recorded as such and FDR didn't say it. You've been asked for proof of this bullshit before and all you have is FDR saying "it is said" and Aiken denied it. Either supply proof or stop using that lie!

    Also we didn't back any horse so you can stop with that as well!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And we go back to the debunked nonsense again.

    Thinking Germany would win was shared by many people and politicians around the world.

    'Wanting Germany to win' was something you never proved and has been completely debunked here.

    Germany put more than Irishmen in concentration camps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Rubbish. Roosevelt kept Aiken waiting unexpectantly for some weeks for the meeting, during which the FBI observed and listened to Aiken. During the meeting "The President interrupted to say that he believed in being perfectly frank. He said 'you are reported as having said that the Irish had nothing to fear from a German victory'."

    All even in the Irish version of what happened,

    Of course Aiken denied it, he was there to get arms of course, arms he did not get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭adaminho


    You've been asked several times and failed to show any proof of the FBi observing Aiken saying that. The only "report" was from David Gray. Time to put up or shut up, provide proof of this FBI report you said you saw!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    "Germany put more than Irishmen in concentration camps."you say. So that makes it ok he put the 50 captured Irish seamen in slave labour Nazi concentration camps, 22 of whom died there?

    Without a word of protest from Dev in official records? Even though he was good friends with Hempel the Nazi party member who was diplomat here in Ireland?

    Did you order those books I recommended?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This has all been debunked by several posters.

    Stop embarrassing yoursellf.

    No credible historian anywhere thinks Dev was pro Nazi.
    It’s all in your head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    If you google it, you will see proof. Roosevelt gave a directive to monitor foreign officials and anti-interventionists, and Ireland was very strategically placed in the Battle of the Atlantic. Roosevelt then even tried to persuade Aiken to patrol against German activity out to 50 miles from our coasts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭adaminho


    So no, you've no links of Aiken saying anything! Caught lying again!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    I did not say Dev was pro-Nazi. I wrote "

    Roosevelt kept Aiken waiting unexpectantly for some weeks for the meeting, during which the FBI observed and listened to Aiken. During the meeting "The President interrupted to say that he believed in being perfectly frank. He said 'you are reported as having said that the Irish had nothing to fear from a German victory'."

    Were some people not of the view that Dev wanted a German victory because he thought then he could get his U.I.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 716 ✭✭✭myfreespirit


    Pot, meet the kettle you just called 'black' 😄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    The American President said Aiken was reported as having said Ireland would have nothing to fear from a German victory. Link was given. I do not lie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭adaminho


    Reported by who? You claim the FBI but haven't provided any proof! FDR asking a question based on a rumor is NOT proof that Aiken wanted a German victory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are a proven fraud capable of saying anything to vent your ‘get Dev’ affliction..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    It was not a question based on a rumour. It was a statement by Roosevelt. I gave the link. Do you not know the difference between a question and a statement?

    Roosevelt was obviously not happy with Aiken because:

    "The President went on to talk of the dire consequences that would come to Ireland in the event of a German victory."

    And again:

    "The President said that the Irish did not seem to realise what a German victory would mean. At present they could buy and sell where they liked, but the Germans, even if they did not ravage and destroy the country, would take the Irish produce and say you will take in exchange children's toys. The Irish would reply 'We do not want children's toys', but the Germans would say, whether you want them or not, you are going to take them in exchange for your produce."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭adaminho


    Reported by who? Where did FDR hear it? You claim the FBI but have no proof! If there is no official report then it is nothing but a rumour!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You yourself FrancieBrady were caught using a few fake profiles / posting here on boards.ie under other names by a mod a year or two ago, so a bit rich of you to accuse someone else of fraud.

    I gave links for everything I said and caught you out so many times eg the use of the "Nazi" word in America, the showing of Holocaust newsreel in May etc etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Not only were Roosevelt and the FBI aware of Aiken's opinions, but so was the American ambassador / Minister to Ireland aware of Aiken's opinions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Try to deflect all you want.

    You lost this argument long ago because you could not help yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You admitted previously having more than one name / boards.ie identity. How many have you had on this thread? Just wondering, because some posters have the same thoughts as you, the same style, have consistently lost arguments, have gone for the player not the ball, and who have backed up other posters who by coincidence have been on at the same time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,127 ✭✭✭adaminho


    There is no proof of Aiken saying that, there is no FBI report of it despite you claiming to have seen one and David Gray got his information from a seance!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I didn’t have any illegal accounts. I had two accounts with mod approval.

    I used one in error for two or three posts owned up to it and served my ban.

    You continue to fraudulently make claims, spinning facts, inventing facts and telling lies.
    Caught out numerous times on one thread



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    You had others, as a mod confirmed. Happyday42, Alf etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,542 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Roosevelt said it was reported and if you do some research you will find the FBI did investigate Aiken after the US tricked him in to spending some weeks in America before his meeting with Roosevelt. No fools the Americans.

    David Gray (diplomat) was the United States Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary to Ireland between 1940 and 1947…he would and did get his info from more than a seance, or he would not have lasted 7 years. In effect he was the ambassador for the 7 years, and you will find that in time of war, with tens of thousands of Americans dying, the American government would not and did not tolerate fools. Look how much much shorter the disgraced ambassador Kennedy lasted in Britain, a mere 2 years before he had to resign.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,059 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You were asked before to produce credible sources for a claim the FBI investigated him. You didn’t produce any and continue to lie about it.



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