Why can't we classify the Green Line south as a Metro now?

I’d like to see Rialto and Charlemont become hubs for Luas with better quality onwards connections offered there alright. Good launch pad for incremental extensions out SW and SE respectively, although the N11 Luas mooted routes seem to not use Charlemont atm.

Woodbrook is not happening and nor should it. Bray is the location needed.

bk - I like your plan but if you are adding an orbital west line (very important in my opinion as that is where the city if growing most and the M50 is over capacity) you surely have to connect it around to Metrolink at the airport?!

Ideally your post-2040 link from Charlemont to Tallaght would then seamlessly connect to the new orbital west, creating a loop around the city. People could then travel from huge swathes of the city to the airport in less than 45 minutes as well as many other major trip generators.

In my opinion, as soon as the Metrolink project is finished, it is vital that the next phase (probably the Metro west line in terms of importance) enters construction immediately so that all the knowledge accumulated by the staff who have been working on the Metrolink project is not lost. Then phase 3 should follow immediately after that and so on until the city has a fully developed public transport system!

Why wasn't the green cross city line put in a tunnel? It seems to have been an extremely short sighted decision?

Imagine the possibilities of an east-west and north south Luas tunnel. They could be connected and you could have all sorts of interesting routes.

But the green line was built with the intention of being converted to metro right? It just seemed crazy to not tunnel given that?

And a hopefully related question which is okay to ask here? Given how important Dublin was in the British Empire 125 years ago, did the British ever look into an underground for Dublin?

There was probably a greater chance of Belfast getting an underground by the time they were in vogue than there was of Dublin getting one - Dublin's time in the context of the Empire had been and gone.

There’s only a tiny bit of complicated land in Bray. The old golf club lands are earmarked for it to go through them and over a new bridge to the station.

Why is terrible density at Woodbrook a higher priority? Yes there’s new housing but it still is largely a golf course, a graveyard and a massive public park.

Bray Daly is in the middle of a large urban area, connecting the main street and the Prom. It has significantly more density in and around it. It has all the local bus routes feeding it along with DART and Commuter.

Also Woodbrook isn’t even convenient from a motorway perspective.

These are ifs and buts. The line south of Sandyford cannot be Metro standard as is so any notional cost needs to consider the upgrade of that.

Woodbrook is a crap location even for Metro. There is no longer the space for a large park and ride facility and it will end up continuing to feed traffic north. As is the Bray North exit basically goes onto a country road at Old Connaught and would just feed a load of traffic into the entrance of Bray that is already completely over capacity. It is basically there or the Shankill exit thus a complete reworking of the road network would be required and good luck at that considering how Bus Connects has gone.

The land swap with the golf course and the graveyard makes further development there challenging anyway.

Now maybe the argument is that Woodbrook is just a dead zone stop station and you build a P&R further north to the West of the Motorway but I just don’t get it. Why would you spend that much money on something that doesn’t actually connect properly to one of Ireland’s largest urban areas and continue to encourage car use.

Even still there’s actually a fairly easy way that Metro grade could be brought into Bray and it would involve CPO’ing from the Windsor dealership to the Circle K, probably 14 houses and 2 businesses. Run it elevated there and it has no issue with getting into Bray. They are already CPO’ing part of these lands for Bus Connects, tbh I don’t get why they didn’t do something more extreme to improve access to the town. Woodbrook would 100% require tunnelling at this stage, I’m not sure where this idea of treading it overground has come from.

The best solution is just the Luas to Bray Daly with a P&R at Fassaroe as a spur. This encourages public transport use around a central hub, encourages urban living and provides P&R access. Win win.

If they ever put in an improved line from Sandyford to Cherrywood (like actually utilising the old more direct route) then that Luas would benefit from it. I don’t see the necessity for Metro that South.

Woodbrook could be reached following the original Harcourt Railway alignment. It's mostly still clear. A small amount of straight line cut and cover would be required at Cherrywood. A small amount of CPO would also be required but it's an open goal having that alignment 90% clear.

Metro along the original alignment to Woodbrook to provide DART← →Metro interchange, not to serve Bray Daly with a second high frequency rail connection. Anyone living near Bray Daly can wait an average of 2.5 minutes for a DART and Bray and then change at Woodbrook with another average wait of about 90s.

By taking Metro to Woodbrook it allows commuters from SOUTH of Bray to take a DART from Greystones (might be extended further south some day) and change at Woodbrook for Sandyford, Dundrum, south inner city etc. I'm looking at the network connectivity, not at serving a particular place, especially when that place can better be served by an alternative means:

I think the western and southern parts of Bray would be served by metro at Daly about as well as they are served by DART today-not very well at all. The N11 Luas could branch at Sandyford and also continue down the N11 all the way to the western and southern parts of Bray, avoiding the town centre and the traffic there. The N11 Luas to Bray would pass under the Sandyford-Woodbrook metro and interchange could be provided there. It does not need to interchange with DART at all. That's much better than walking or taking a bus to Bray Daly IMO. You'd get into the city way faster.

I would keep all that as a tram route and plug everything south of the depot as far as Carickmines into a branch off the N11 Luas and terminate the Luas at Carickmines or just before it. It's no use as a metro line and converting the original alignment opens up new land banks. I'd use the original alignment for the metro extension south of Sandyford to Woodbrook (and someday on to Bray Daly for the folks who really think this is necessary ;-) I wouldn't say no to it, just don't think it adds much connectivity as it entirely parallels the DART which will be near metro frequency). Leopardstown is going to fall to development some day, just like the Phoenix Park did. Some of the overflow carparks already are. A huge amount of mixed use land could be developed at Leopardstown. There will be demand to reach it from the south east, there's likely already decent demand to reach the existing commercial sites there from the south east as is.

So Bray is one of the best connected towns and you don’t bother going an extra few hundred metres there?!

Believe it or not, there is actually huge development potential there and lots ongoing which of course directly connecting it to the towns along the Green Line would further help. Oh no though, let’s connect to a graveyard and a golf course! This is simply bizarro thinking and lacks basic grasp of how to build dense urban areas.

I am looking at the big picture. You don’t have a rashers about the actual area. There is no simple connection to Woodbrook - there IS in Bray. Go have a gander at the Dargle river and look at the great big golf club currently getting developed. Said planning has had to retain lands for the Luas and the Transport bridge.

This is not the case at Woodbrook. Again given you are clearly ignorant of the area, you won’t be aware that a major land swap was done with that golf club for the site of the existing station. The area right up to the station currently has apartment blocks being constructed on it. There is no space for a simple connection. Go drive out there now and tell me where the simple connection is for more rail overground- it isn’t there anymore, the focus shifted further south which was always the rational decision.

If you look at the maps for a couple of decades ago it might have made sense to restore the halt, that didn’t happen. Now instead we have the chance to connect a major town and transport hub to the east and put in a P&R through fields to the West. All further south on the M11 to mitigate traffic flowing north onto the M50. No brainer.