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Orange is the new Burke

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,864 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Religion.

    He believes he is acting in full accordance with his religious beliefs, and therefore everyone else is wrong and he is right. No judge, court or country is a higher authority than God, so their rulings are all wrong and do not apply to him because he is abiding by his religion.

    So any act of him agreeing to court decisions and rulings would be him putting the law over his religious beliefs, which he cannot do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,064 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭youtheman


    It's a combination of things. First and foremost the seed of his downfall was sown by his family (you know who!). He was educated and nurtured as most parents would do, but he was also radicalised and essentially brain washed, and shielded from others of his own age so he never got to 'benchmark' himself against others. Then the head of the family decided to carry a cross against 'transgender ideology', which given what is going on in the world today, is a relatively minor issue. And he's been fighting the fight for several years now.

    If he was a real soldier then someone in authority would say "you've done your part, it's up to others to carry the fight from here on, you need to get on with your life". But that vile person (we know who!) is happy to let him throw his life away (literally!) while they get to live it up just showing up when it suits them and throwing a tantrum for public notoriety . He's in so deep now, and so radicalised, that he doesn't have the self awareness or cop on to conclude that he's made an absolute mess of his life.

    I'm sure in times to come phycologists and mental health experts will have plenty here to conduct some very interesting case studies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭scottser


    Religious fixation is very common among those with severe mental health disorders such as Bipolar and Schizophrenia. Strong religious beliefs also make engaging with treatment more difficult as religion provides readymade solutions for explaining away delusional behaviours as normal, delusions which are validated and supported by their congregation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,864 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    When almost the entire family is like that, it's not about mental health disorders and just an attitude and behaviour ingrained in them from such an early age.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,401 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    It is grimly fascinating in that sense.

    As the time goes by with the case it appears crazier and crazier to me. I don't think he's right in any way, but I think the kernel that started it all: addressing someone by their preferred gender or pronoun etc and whether someone should be compelled to it is - in the abstract - an interesting legal case. And I'm sure Enoch could have appealed this and eventually escalated this, gone to court etc. In short: if it was really about what it is said to be about, why not appeal and challenge it in a rational manner?

    He might actually have a case here - once again, to be clear, I don't agree with him - but the actual law seems ambiguous, or at least arguable to an extent. This would eventually go to court and gain publicity etc, etc.

    But, instead, right from the beginning Burke has never accepted in any way that he's in the wrong, that he even could be wrong, or even that there's a question of it, and hasn't accepted processes or any authority throughout the whole thing from beginning to end and has been completely obnoxious and never abided by due process.

    I think the religiousity gives an excuse for it, but the Burkean approach is, to me, coming from something deeper. A complete refusal to admit wrong, not giving an inch.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    He might actually have a case here - once again, to be clear, I don't agree with him - but the actual law seems ambiguous, or at least arguable to an extent. This would eventually go to court and gain publicity etc, etc.

    He might have a case for what exactly? In case you might say "his dismissal", this was for his behaviour towards his principal and had nothing to do with his beliefs or transgenderism.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,401 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Maybe how I worded it was somewhat confusing, but, yeah, I know 100%: He was dismissed for gross misconduct, which is entirely accurate and totally fair. I've zero issue with that and even less sympathy for Burke.

    I'm not saying that I agree with Burke - in any way whatsoever - and I have a long posting history in this thread arguing how much of an utter disgrace the family as whole are. They are truly awful and they were around college the same time I was and they were awful then too.

    But, I think a more rational actor than Burke would have let the appeals process run its course and then - if required - put forward a case and tested the obligations of the law in situations just like this.

    Might get thrown out of court immediately, but, at least it makes some degree of sense. As Judge Cregan said the last day "You keep making that point repeatedly, but you haven't made it in a court of law."

    That ultimate idiocy is, I think, what hurts my brain the most.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,168 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The equivalent case in the UK, which has vastly less protections for transgender identity than we do, failed in the end. But he deliberately never even tried to do it the proper way here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,728 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    id be more inclined to go with autism with significant levels of trauma, including ptsd and possibly cptsd, but who knows, strong religious beliefs can also occur with these conditions



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    what age is he? Mid twenties? Surely at some stage when he’s’ sitting in Mountjoy he must think how do I get to living a normal life? Working in a school doing the job I trained for? Surely no school here will ever employ him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,728 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    people with significant levels of trauma simply cannot just snap out of it, while sitting in a cell, hence why we still have significantly high levels of re offense within our criminal justice system, their beliefs tend to become more hardened by their experiences within the system, so, ta-da!

    yes, hes now unemployable, and probably for the remainder of his life, which is pretty much the case for most inmates, and you, the taxpayer, gets to pay for all of their needs, and for the remainder of your life, so, yippee!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,168 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    But, I think a more rational actor than Burke would have let the appeals process run its course and then - if required - put forward a case and tested the obligations of the law in situations just like this.

    A more reasonable actor would have engaged with the school from the outset and handled the grievance like a professional, like an adult rather than like a child throwing a tantrum.

    I don't for a minute believe that this is anything other than completely intentional by Burke. He, and his family, are highly intelligent and they know that a teacher behaving in that manner towards their principal, school and the local bishop will result in dismissal. And yet here we are almost four years later talking about him and some still (stupidly) think it is about transgenderism.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭BestWestern


    Have to say, what a terrible situation he's got himself into. He's murdered his career, and any sense of credibility in front of the nation.

    Wouldn't be surprised if he tries to elected as a TD or Senator. He'd fit right in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,168 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    If he got triple digits of votes it would be an overacheivement. The record low in a contested Dáil election is 8, set only two weeks ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 265 ✭✭BestWestern


    I'm not saying he'd be elected, but don't underestimate how many cranks agree with him. I can't imagine him being trans-fer friendly though. :-)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,201 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    It’s rubbish reported by a reporter of limited experience/intelligence/curiosity (delete as appropriate). I’m sure Martina would not have approved of a gap year!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,401 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    Just to be clear here I don't think Burke is in prison because of transgenderism - even if he thinks he is! - and I agree with him being in prison, due to his completely ludicrously unreasonable behaviour. Which is entirely in keeping with the family's modus operandi for years.

    And, I'm also not arguing that someone who'd go all the way to a court and exhaust every legal avenue to create a legal crusade about this, is reasonable or rational either.

    Obviously, most, if not effectively all people, would simply respect the pupil's wish here and show some decency - but, just that approach is comparatively more rational than what Burke has undertook - which is complete insanity.

    I agree with you to an extent about their calculating nature. They do know how to attract attention, no doubt about that, but I think it's more than possible to be calculating: while also being stupid. I think there's something pathological going on there as well, beyond intention and calculation.

    Whatever about intentionality, the bare facts of are the guy is needlessly destroying his own life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,201 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Cregan has previously castigated his judicial colleagues for letting him out when the school has been closed. I find it difficult to believe that he would change now.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    No, I get you. I was just making the point that a normal person who has a grievance at work would solve it in work rather than throw a tantrum, end up sacked and then take legal action to try and reverse the sacking. Normal is something the Burkes choose not to follow however

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 335 ✭✭goldsparkle


    Also any other person might get a colleague to help them or a union rep but Burke didn't do any of that. He got his family to protest and temper tantrum all around the place. All displaying a huge level of hate against transgenderism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,605 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    It's purely intense indoctrination I reckon. Try telling a priest that Jesus doesn't exist, he'll look at you in an pitiful and condescending manner.

    They need to back off a bit and try to fight their battles in a more diplomatic way. Won't do any good,the world has moved on,but at least they could function in society.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    He must have missed the 'render unto Caesar' bit

    In other words, obey the law

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,864 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    That's the reason why there are so many different denominations of the same religions. You just cherry-pick the parts you like, ignore the things you don't, and convince yourself that whatever you believe conveniently happens to be the absolute truth.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I've said from the outset that they was a very interesting legal argument underlying this, around determining where the legal boundaries exist between religious freedom and the law of the land ( in this case the equality act).

    The outcome would not have been in Burkes favour at all, which is why he chose not to follow the grievance pathway to the courts and went down the path he did, which I'm now convinced was deliberate from day one. I think they hoped they'd get a ground swell of public support or even political support, but if course that never materialized so now they've painted themselves into an evangelical corner that they can't get out of.

    Zero sympathy for him and he and his family own and fully deserve all that has happened to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,895 ✭✭✭Dublin Calling


    I don't think so. It is the Burke way to shout in the face of their superiors when they don't agree with them. His sister did the same in Author Cox, for not being invited to a lunch! If he (the family) applied common sense they should have run the issue through the court system. It is not as if they don't have in-house legal expertise!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,593 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    I understand the concept of a person, or a group of persons [in this case the group of persons identifying as the Burke family] having the right to mark out the boundaries of their own personal civil and religious attitudes in the civil society of which they are part but I decline, as a member of the same civil society, to accept the concept that that sense of entitlement is a fitment which every other person must comply with when it's a concept based solely around the religious ethos of that single person or group, in this case the Burkes.

    I have absolutely no problem with the Burkes setting their own personal boundaries in our society and its laws but decline to allow them set the boundaries for all others in our society in the way they are set on determining due to their religious creed. The Burkes, if they want to be an equal part of Irish society, will have to accept that they are bound by the same laws in order to be part of that society.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,974 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    They have successfully and respectfully run issues through the court system where they had a real chance of winning.

    Worth noting also that in those cases they engaged outside legal expertise instead of keeping it in the family

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,244 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    It is also possible that they engaged outside legal expertise with all the cases that someone within the family fought but the outside legal expertise declined to take on waste of time or bad faith cases

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