Is Irelands neutrality stance in WW2 unfairly criticized? (see Mod note 217)

Even you were not aware of it, and the fact you are on this thread shows you are probably more interested in WW2 and out neutrality than the vast majority of people. You posted as late as last night you thought our merchant shipping was safer than allied merchant shipping, until I educated you.

Ask any Irish person and at school they were told neutrality in WW2 was good and it kept us safe ( to f…. with the rest of the world) and thats it.

Jesus No backup when requested again and a lie about what I posted.

you thought our merchant shipping was safer than allied merchant shipping,

I posted a quote from a Wicki page thay you have not disproved with anything, other than venting your hurt feelings.

The Irish and British authorities co-operated in the chartering of ships. They made combined purchases of wheat, maize, sugar, animal feeds and petrol.[79] At the start of the war, Irish ships joined convoys protected by the Royal Navy. The advantages were protection and cheaper insurance. These advantages were not borne out by experience. So they chose to sail alone.

I didn't 'think' anything. I asked a question you still haven't addressed without using hindsight.

Why would we have wanted 'protection' in the Atlantic if it had already turned out we were safer going it alone? *That says 'safer' by the way not 'safe'

That was a question a ship's captain or company had to address in REAL time.

There's this constant fantasy effort to inflate Irelands significance. If Ireland had joined the war it had no resources or military equipment to make any contribution. Germany had nothing to fear from Ireland joining the war.

It's makes no sense to argue Germans would have bombed all the ports and cities in the South when they didn't do that in the North.

You can't argue they feared the response from the South when they bombed Belfast and Dublin with no response.

Your theory make no sense and contradicts itself.

There's this constant fantasy effort to inflate Irelands significance. If Ireland had joined the war it had no resources or military equipment to make any contribution. 

Not sure what ^^^ this is about tbh.
Surely it should be directed at the poster claiming our neutral stance was a heinious crime against the civlilised world?

The Germans bombed ports and docks. Had Ireland been on the Allied side, ireland would have been attacked. As for your lack of awareness on what was happening in Ireland in terms of Intelligence between G2, MI5 and the German Abwehr, the Germans were initially eager to get Ireland to not side with the Allies and be favourable to the German side.

Far from nothing happening, there was a continual battle between on the one hand the interests of the Irish and the Allies and on the other the German interests. The south and east coasts of Ireland were definitely within bombing range and ports and cities in Ireland would have been targets in a non-neutral Ireland because the incentive for the Germans to stop Ireland joining the Allies would have been removed. Two of the Treaty ports, Berehaven and Cobh are on the south coast (Cork). Was Ireland safer being neutral? Yes!

I was not told at school what to think about Irish neutrality, it was just thought as-is. However the reasons for why the policy was adopted were explained and understood.

I have seen pro-neutrality arguments and anti-neutrality arguments in the media. Cathal O'Shannon was given plenty of airtime on RTE down the decades to call neutrality "a disgrace".

Gray's memoir (which nobody seems to have read) and one drunken diatribe by Winston Churchill are not taken as the final word on the matter by anyone except dabblers.

Range wasn't the issue. They got slaughtered in daylight bombing without an escort and the escorts didn't have the range to cover the bombers. German strategic bombing mostly ended with the Battle of Britain and the Blitz. They switched to night. Once allied night fighters came on in strength that stopped too. German bombers were obsolete very early in the war. They had nothing else so they had to use them. Ju88 the only exception.

As the war progressed they were restricted to using fast fighter bombers in tip and run raids.

As the war moved east they no longer had the aircraft available either. Busy in the east.

To waste limited resources on unimportant targets in Ireland makes no sense.

Espionage in Ireland was a back water. It's was a dismal failure. People here obviously getting worked up to an obsessive frenzy about it. But it was all talk ultimately.

The size of our merchant fleet was well known and the amount of Irish ships sunk is also well know. A link was provided earler for those without that knowledge, and who are unable yto use google. I also stated:

Approximately 22% to 29% of the Irish merchant fleet was lost. Out of 56 ships initially on the Irish register (which later grew to around 71 with chartered vessels), 16 Irish merchant ships were sunk by the Germans.

The overall loss rate for Allied merchant fleets was nearly 4,800 Allied merchant ships sunk in total, representing roughly 15% to 27% of specific national merchant fleets by the end of the conflict.

So percentage losses of Irish ships was higher.

We will disregard some extra Irish fishing vessels that were sunk with the loss of life (which would have brought the total sunk to more than 16) , but the 16 ships sunk out of 56 Irish ships ( or 71 if you include chartered ships) gives the percentage 22% ( actually 22.53% but I left it at 22%) to 29% ( actually 28.57%.). Do you want some maths lessons too?

The Allis found that going in convoys was safer, safety in numbers and they had more protection and were able to avoid submarines that bit better too, especially as the war went on and they developed counter-measures to the submarine threat, although still very dangerous.

The straggles who fell behind in a convoy for mechanical reasons or whatever were like the Irish ships, easier prey for u boats.

Your lack of awareness of what was happening in terms of Intelligence is obvious. The Germans were aware as was the UK government and MI5.

Germany considered Ireland to be a very strategic location as it could supply weather reports and military intelligence on developments in the North. #In the early part of the war, the UK was almost overstretched trying to defend airfields at that time. (Surely you have heard of the Battle Of Britain?) Had Ireland been on the Allied side then, it is likely that there would not have been enough fighter cover to protect Irish ports and cities on the east and south coasts.

Since you are straying into the realm of counterfactuals, a few V2s might have caused a lot of problems.

They did not care what tiny neutral countries thought. They were laughing at us soaking up to Hitler, while at the same time dropping 50 bombs on us and sinking 23 to 29% of our shipping. And putting some captured Irish merchant sailors in slave concentration camps, to be worked to death, which some were. Never told you that in school?

Dev did not tell us about our high shipping losses, and he never told us about the Nazi death camps either. Strict censorship. Our media was not allow to use the word Nazi. They told us about the Dresden bombing though, strange enough.

It obviously never occurred to you to wonder why German intelligence operations in Ireland were not as successful as they had hoped. They didn't share your attitude to Ireland as being some kind of backwater. G2 and Allied intelligence organisations were working against them here. Even if you don't understand what happened, they did.

None of that is "Sucking up to Hitler" is it. Neither is Using Irish diplomats to spy on Germany, weather reports to the Allies, allowing Allied airmen escape to the North and much more! No such aid was given to Germany so you are just making stuff up about aiding the Germans.