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Ireland vs Israel - To play or not to play, that is the question Read OP for Mod Warning

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You implied everyone would choose money over every other consideration. It proves it's simply not true.

    The bigger picture here is this is this an organization that has mismanaged funding and he sport in general. They are what's brought it into debt. They've managed to take one of the most popular sports in the country and drive it into the ground. The whole organization should be on bread and water till it gets its own house in order.

    But here again they are again begging with the hand out except now dragging the whole country into dubious ethics. Ireland is seen being corrupt and cowboy finances. No backbone.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    FAI need for money is a bottomless pit.

    Fawning over Israel approval is not where people's head should be....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,085 ✭✭✭✭briany


    @crossman47

    There is a seam of anti semetism running through this country.

    Which I find odd, if true, because there has never been a large population of Jewish people in Ireland to even really be noticeable. In the modern day, of the couple of thousand living here, I think the great majority's families have been in Ireland for a long enough time and are peaceable, productive members of their local communities and society in general. Unless this anti-semitism has arisen alongside a sympathetic feeling towards the Palestinians, I'm at a loss to think what it could possibly be about.

    Anyway, the game should absolutely go ahead. This is just another case of a small number of activists making a disproportionate noise. If we want to stick it to Israel over their hideous treatment of Palestinians, I think it's a far better way to do it to take six points off them, which will hurt their chances of qualifying for future competitions because of going down in rankings and having a poorer Nations League result, which will also be less money for their economy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Regardless of the past, the FAI are a national sporting body with 200+ employees

    The FAI needs to maintain their income. The FAI ar not begging for anything. Thats simply a bare faced lie. They have not asked for a hand out

    They have stated the need to play the games as the consequences are pretty dire if they don't. They are not trying to drag the country into dubious ethics.

    .

    At the end of the day, the people who earn their living via irish football do need their salaries. Like any other person in society pretty much.

    If I had to choose money over changing events in Israel/Palestine I would choose money because I have a mortgage, 3 kids (one going to college in 3 months time), bills, food to pay for etc. I doubt there is many people out there who would be able to forfeit significant chunks of their income either.

    Ireland is not seen as corrupt or no backbone over this. Cop onto yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Saying you have to play a game for money is having the hand out.

    No one will die because a game of football doesn't happen... Whereas....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Nope, thats called conducting your business. Fulfilling fixtures is a core part of their income. Is going to work considered "asking for a hand out" ?

    Your making yourself look really stupid TBH.

    Whereas... people will still die even if the games do not happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,960 ✭✭✭csirl


    If the FAI boycotts, the singling out of Israel will be stuffed down our throats and they'll throw the book at us for being anti-semetic and racist. You cant invite a country like Qatar over and have no difficulties with the likes of DPRK, Afghanistan (we regularly play them in cricket!), Iran, Saudi (Horse Racing Ireland fawns over them).etc etc etc You either apply your "moral stance" equally or else you're a hypocrite or a racist.

    So why no protests against the Qatar game this week?

    Why no calls to stop HRI facilitating Saudi and many other dodgy dictatorships with taxpayers money?

    Why no protests against Cricket Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    If they are all the same now why do we see so much support for one side in this country ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,739 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The government cannot choose to fill a financial gap to facilitate a boycott as thats political interference which will get the FAI banned by UEFA/FIFA.

    This is just waffle.

    There's no evidence that if UEFA banned Ireland, and the government provided (more) funding that UEFA would then act in the basis of political interference.

    You're just inventing the occurrence of several steps in a process to predict an outcome and using that to justify playing this genocidal state.

    Its quite an effort to be going to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    Thats not what i said though. Your grasp of English seems to be quite poor.

    If the government give money to the FAI in order to facilitate boycotting the games that can be deemed as political interference. Which can result in a ban.

    Its far more likely an outcome then playing the celtic u19s ever will be.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,384 ✭✭✭secman


    I am not a "Lefty" by any definition, never voted for any Left party nor will ever. But I am astounded by what Israel are doing in Gaza and the West Bank, it is utterly utterly repulsive. The irony seems lost on them as a race that once faced extermination that they themselves are now the exterminator of Palestinians. It's akin to people who suffered abuse as children going on to be abusers themselves. Unfortunately we don't have a strong American president to keep them in check, we have the tail wagging the dog. For people to be upset about tennis balls being thrown on to the pitch v's people being repulsed by what's going on in Gazza is some contrast. If I had a vote on it, I would vote No to play Israel.

    To suggest that Israel are merely defending themselves is utterly white washing the situation, yes Quatar have terrible human rights records , but they are not trying to exterminate a race.

    Netanyahu is despicable human being.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,739 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Again with the insults…

    Doesn't change the point, you are using the possible outcomes of several hypothetical acts as if it is a given they will all occur in this way so as to justify your argument.

    A challenge against a Celtic team was only brought in to the conversation to show that there was more motivating people to advocate for playing Israel than what the claimed. Which is clearly the case given you are now talking about UEFA acting on the Irish government funding the team because they lost money because UEFA kicked them out because they refused to play Israel. None of which has happened and only one of which is a pertinent part of the discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I dunno what you think I said. But I meant Israel might have been provoked, and have some justification for defending itself originally. But it's gone way past that now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    It wasn't an insult, you clearly cannot grasp the concept of the government paying money to the FAI to boycott the fixtures can be deemed as political interference which could lead to a ban. You keep trying to twist stuff to suit your agenda.

    Its all pertinent. Just because you foolishly think it isn't doesn't make it true.

    Nice back tracking on the celtic game by the way. Nice of you to acknowledge it was a rubbish idea finally. I admire your ability to admit you were wrong.

    We can only discuss possible outcomes because none of us can predict the future. We can only go by what we know and UEFA/FIFA do not respond well to political interference with the FA in respective member countries.

    I want the Israel games to be played unless the decison is made by others (UEFA for example) which will not lead to the FAI and Irish football suffering. Simple as. Beyond that, i dont really care.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭sunshine2018


    after 66 pages on this topic … this is the most accurate assessment of the situation !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Straight to personal insults....

    How many times have bad things been defended as someone just doing their job.

    Let's never do the right thing then. It never makes a difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    It is not an insult. You are making a fool of yourself.

    The FAI have to do the right thing for themselves. And the people dependent on them for their livelihoods.

    Are you taking a stand by refusing to use Israeli products or services?

    Especially as a boycott will not change a thing in Israel, Palestine or anywhere else. And anyone who thinks it will change things is seriously deluded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    I think history has a lot to do with it.

    Traditionally Catholics would have been anti-Semitic because of biblical history, and Ireland was a very Catholic country for centuries, so suspicious of Jews would always have been prevalent.

    But in more recent history I think it has to do with an anti imperialist attitude.

    This is why support for the Palestinian cause is so high amongst northern nationalists.

    They see Israel as occupying Palestine the way Britain occupies the north.

    This same is true but to a lesser extent in the south, but there is also a romantic support for the underdog in it, plus you have a mainly left leaning mainstream media who would favour the Palestinian cause.

    The low level anti-American attitude in this country also adds to it, people love to criticize the US, especially when the POTUS is Republican, even though people are happy to take US multi national jobs, use US tech and go there on holidays.

    The problem I have with it is that it lacks critical thinking.

    People don't take much heed of what the Palestinian cause stands for, it stands for a society very different from the one we enjoy, and on the other side Israeli society is much more like ours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,962 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Being against what Israel is doing in the middle east (not just in Gaza) isn't a "lefty" pursuit.

    This isn't a right or left issue. It's a right and wrong issue.

    And people are against what Israel are doing because it's fucking wrong, full stop. And it would be no matter what nation was doing it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,085 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I'm not sure that being a very Catholic country equals a suspiciousness of Jewish people being prevalent. Besides, the way we think of Ireland being a very Catholic country once upon a time with weekly mass attendance at least and the church being supreme in Irish life was really more of a modern development after the famine, and it's hard to imagine the syncretic folk-Catholicism practiced before that being big on suspicion of Jews. I mean, there was hardly one to be found throughout most of Ireland, anyway, to even be mad at.

    The anti-imperialist thing makes more sense, though it would be nice if activists could remember once in a while that it's not just the Israeli government being evil in this way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Exactly this.

    I had some sympathy at the start but no longer.

    I think no one going to the matches would be a better display than the tennis balls.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,739 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    At least when I offered my hypothetical, I stated it as such.

    You are acting like the 5 actions that would need to happen for your position to be correct, are guaranteed to happen. That is clearly very unlikely to be the case.

    So you're reaching in order to justify a game against representatives of a genocidal state. As you have been since you joined the thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think 1950s Ireland where the church was so pivotal was created by people like de valera. It created a very insular mindset. Same with the support the underdog mindset.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,739 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You should read any of the 66 pages on the thread and you'll see why that isn't accurate. At all.

    It is both ignoring the reasons why the treatment of the Palestinians has always been particularly looked at by people in Ireland and aside from that, it is trying to force an absolutist rigidity on protesters that isn't applied to other people when it comes to them forming their opinions and positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    5 actions?

    If the government offered any sort of financial inducement to the FAI to boycott the games, thats political interference. Thats one action. Where are you getting five from? Maths not your strong point it seems.

    Your Celtic "hypothetical", you vehemently defended this as realistic, to the point you stated Cetic would go for it and it would get a TV deal and stated it would cover the financial losses.

    I dont need to justify anything, the FAI have already stated why they have to fulfil the fixtures. And I hope the home game is played in Dublin as I will attend.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The FAI are past masters of looking after themselves of that there is no doubt.

    Not playing one match will have little effect on Irish football. Not after the state the FAI. Have got it into.

    If boycotts have no effect (there's a irony of claiming that in Ireland considering the history of the word). Then public boycotting the matches should have no effect either.

    I feel sorry for the players are being left to fend for themselves here. That they are abandoned by the FAI, it should never have a player decision. Not least after years of terrible performances theres a glimmer of some appetite from the team.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,578 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    A nations league home game is worth somewhere in the region of €5m to the FAI

    The TV rights are approx €10m. Thats at risk. Thats 25% of the FAI annual income, which is significant.

    Its two matches, not one. Shows how clued in you are when you cannot even figure out that it's two games.

    A boycott will have no impact on Israeli state. It's wont change their actions.

    A boycott by the FAI will have "serious consequences" for the FAI and Irish football. That quote is from the CEO of the FAI.

    Your clueless. You dont even know the basics



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag




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